Rey's Lineage Discussion II - 1

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Who is Rey related to?

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Post by FrolickingFizzgig on Tue 19 Apr 2016, 8:53 am

@Darth Dingbat wrote:WELL. I came across some very interesting name symbolism.

First of all, sun is the source of prana. Rays of light = prana. Prana = "the sun of a thousand rays".

But this? This floored me:

Prana and Rayi are the two poles of manifesting energy–positive and negative, male and female. This duality is at the heart of all that presently exists, and without it everything dissolves. Prana and Rayi are the “parents” of all things. Creation is their perpetual interaction. As Yogananda wrote in one of his chants: “Spirit and Nature dancing together!” All “creatures”–all that exist in relativity–have sprung from Prana and Rayi. This is why all religions have intuited the existence of a primeval Father and Mother of All.

From: http://ocoy.org/dharma-for-christians/upanishads-for-awakening/the-prashna-upanishad/the-father-and-mother-of-all/

Yin-yang symbolism again, male-female, sun-moon polarities. But this:

Prana and Rayi.

Prana the Father.
@Darth Dingbat
You could be on to something here. I'm liking the idea that Rey has something to do with this Prana character more than ever.

@Gemini
I see all the Obi-Wan parallels and I see the narrative implications, but I don't buy it. I never did. I really think the writers went with new ideas and a new bloodline, but that's just the way I see it.

I've also been thinking that Trevorrow's "nobody will be left behind" comment doesn't really point to Kenobi because Ben is named after Kenobi already. He hasn't been left behind. His name has made its way into the next generation as an homage already.
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Post by vaderito on Tue 19 Apr 2016, 9:05 am

Ok, but how's Prana a good set up when we heard the name only in regards to those stupid rathars(sp? oh who cares?)? I mean, it's possible that Rey's a secret Princess cause that's a big fairytale trope too - Briar Rose = princess Aurora. But it sounds like another stretch to me.

Also, since Leia is now anti-Princess doubtful Rey will be one cause not feminist enough. Rolling Eyes
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Post by Guest on Tue 19 Apr 2016, 9:14 am

Rey is the secret love grandchild of Anakin and Sabe. In his defense, he thought she was Padme. Wink

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Post by Jozie on Tue 19 Apr 2016, 9:34 am

@vaderito
It might be a bit of a stretch, but again I think the screenwriters and Daisy could do it convincingly. I can totally see Rey being a total Jedi bad*** at some point, all dirty and sweaty, and then someone breaks it to her. "You're a princess, Rey" "Say what?" Wink And while I'm not into Kenobi theory, they should account for her powers somehow.

Her posh accent convinces me most about Prana being her father. Someone mentioned Anastasia and I like this idea very much, especially if they subverted it a little bit. For example, if it turned out that King Prana is not really a good father who's looking for his daughter cause he loves her, but rather cause he wants to have his heiress back. That's how rathtars set up would work for me, showing he's vain and "kinda messed up", maybe disappointing Rey big time. So I think she was kidnapped, although I'd doubt she would scream "come baaaack" in such a way to the kidnapper... yeah, every theory has its problems...
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Post by Guest on Tue 19 Apr 2016, 9:40 am

@Jozie wrote: So I think she was kidnapped, although I'd doubt she would scream "come baaaack" in such a way to the kidnapper... yeah, every theory has its problems...
@Jozie

Hmmmm... what if it was someone she trusted, like a family friend or a courtesan? They could have wanted to take Rey out of the line of ascendancy. Maybe the took Rey on the pretenses that it was a trip somewhere.

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Post by Darth Dingbat on Tue 19 Apr 2016, 9:44 am

@vaderito wrote:Ok, but how's Prana a good set up when we heard the name only in regards to those stupid rathars(sp? oh who cares?)? I mean, it's possible that Rey's a secret Princess cause that's a big fairytale trope too - Briar Rose = princess Aurora. But it sounds like another stretch to me.

Also, since Leia is now anti-Princess doubtful Rey will be one cause not feminist enough. Rolling Eyes
@vaderito

Well, at this point everything is a stretch Very Happy It's not like anyone else was properly set up as Rey's parent, either. So, who knows - at least Prana was mentioned, his mention seemed a bit pointless in the context of TFA (especially the fact that his name was mentioned several times in the novel), and he has a bizarrely meaningful name for a random nobody.

I guess it all depends on how important (if at all) King Prana turns out to be in the story. The same applies to Rey's parents if they're just other randoms who haven't even been mentioned yet. In any case they have to be brought into the story somehow.

I don't know what's anti-feminist about being born a princess, but it seemed to me that Leia's insistence at not being known as a princess was another example of the theme of rejecting/accepting your name/family/legacy. After all, Tekka does say, "To me, she's royalty." The whole film begins with a dialogue about somebody denying the identity she was given and trying to forge a new one. And, if the promotional bits about Bloodline are anything to go by, it's been quite difficult for her to "deny the truth that is her family".
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Post by Darth Dingbat on Tue 19 Apr 2016, 10:03 am

@Jozie wrote:@vaderito
It might be a bit of a stretch, but again I think the screenwriters and Daisy could do it convincingly. I can totally see Rey being a total Jedi bad*** at some point, all dirty and sweaty, and then someone breaks it to her. "You're a princess, Rey" "Say what?" Wink And while I'm not into Kenobi theory, they should account for her powers somehow.

Her posh accent convinces me most about Prana being her father. Someone mentioned Anastasia and I like this idea very much, especially if they subverted it a little bit. For example, if it turned out that King Prana is not really a good father who's looking for his daughter cause he loves her, but rather cause he wants to have his heiress back. That's how rathtars set up would work for me, showing he's vain and "kinda messed up", maybe disappointing Rey big time. So I think she was kidnapped, although I'd doubt she would scream "come baaaack" in such a way to the kidnapper... yeah, every theory has its problems...
@Jozie

It could also be that King Prana is someone... surprisingly powerful. Prana basically means the Force. "King Prana" is a concept that means "the cosmic ruler of all living beings". Prana is also the sun, sometimes equated with Brahman, and sometimes personified as Indra. Prana is also known as "the deathless prana, the immortal prana". So yeah... if King Prana is anybody at all, he may potentially be a pretty powerful and scary guy. And, judging by the way he was spoken of in the novel, probably not a very nice one, though the meanings of his name are in themselves quite positive or neutral.

Another scenario might be that Rey's mother ran away with Rey, just like Valkorion's wife tried to run away with her children when she realised her husband was an evil influence. But again the question remains why anyone who loved her would leave her with Plutt.

As for the whole name thing, while it seems trivial let's not forget that Padma and Lakshmi are both names of the great Hindu mother-goddess, so it's not like names aren't significant in Star Wars...
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Post by SanghaRen on Tue 19 Apr 2016, 10:20 am

Isn't it amazing that once you remove the Skywalker name, the possibilities expand and we do not come to a consensus? I find it very satisfying. Star Wars is back! Hello Galaxy, hello diversity, hello crazy theories! The "she's a Skywalker" just kills the whole excitement.

I am really split. I like the Kenobi theory a lot, but it's more poetic than dramatic to me and I want darkness. Plus I can see the super Skywalkers fans line up in protest against the Kenobis always saving the Skywalkers. So if Rey is a Kenobi, I hope she falls into Darkness. It's only fair. Otherwise we have again a family drama : you cannot forget the curse (if you're unlucky, you're a Skywalker) or blessing (if you're lucky, you're a Kenobi) that is your family. Unless the Kenobi parent is/was Dark. Then you will have super Kenobi fans lining up in protest.

I have a slight preference for Dark lineage. It just adds a lot of drama. But not Snoke. Does not make sense to me. I don't see him losing his daughter. He either would have turned her into his killing machine or killed her imo.

Personally I am ready to get the parents or parent introduced only in VIII. I am all for new characters. As long as they do not overshadow Kylo and Rey. I could see the parents being new characters in VIII and we learn about them being linked to an OT character (Palpatine, Obi-Wan) only in IX. Or not.

I do like the Prana theory because it would be a new character. And I like the idea of having some crazy dark King -> BDT. Hell, he could also be the father who had her dumped because she was too strange and nice and when he hears now that she is FS and hanging out with the Skywalkers, he sees some advantages and tries to get her back.
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Post by Jozie on Tue 19 Apr 2016, 10:23 am

@Darth Dingbat wrote:Another scenario might be that Rey's mother ran away with Rey, just like Valkorion's wife tried to run away with her children when she realised her husband was an evil influence. But again the question remains why anyone who loved her would leave her with Plutt.
BUT WE KNOW that the person who left her called her "sweetheart" and promised to come back (come to think of it, that totally ruins my kidnapping theory, I take it back). But I like yours so much! Maybe the mother left her on Jakku with Unkar Plutt cause it was the last place to look for a princess. Plutt is a sleazy guy, but was kind of protecting her after all. (crazy thought: maybe the mother didn't come back cause Prana murdered her for what she did...?)
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Post by Maria Antonietta on Tue 19 Apr 2016, 10:28 am

@Jozie wrote:
@Darth Dingbat wrote:Another scenario might be that Rey's mother ran away with Rey, just like Valkorion's wife tried to run away with her children when she realised her husband was an evil influence. But again the question remains why anyone who loved her would leave her with Plutt.
BUT WE KNOW that the person who left her called her "sweetheart" and promised to come back (come to think of it, that totally ruins my kidnapping theory, I take it back). But I like yours so much! Maybe the mother left her on Jakku with Unkar Plutt cause it was the last place to look for a princess. Plutt is a sleazy guy, but was kind of protecting her after all. (crazy thought: maybe the mother didn't come back cause Prana murdered her for what she did...?)
@Jozie

That would be a bomb of a plot twist!!!!!! *Rey falls deep in the dark side*
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Post by Darth Dingbat on Tue 19 Apr 2016, 11:24 am

@Jozie wrote:
@Darth Dingbat wrote:Another scenario might be that Rey's mother ran away with Rey, just like Valkorion's wife tried to run away with her children when she realised her husband was an evil influence. But again the question remains why anyone who loved her would leave her with Plutt.
BUT WE KNOW that the person who left her called her "sweetheart" and promised to come back (come to think of it, that totally ruins my kidnapping theory, I take it back). But I like yours so much! Maybe the mother left her on Jakku with Unkar Plutt cause it was the last place to look for a princess. Plutt is a sleazy guy, but was kind of protecting her after all. (crazy thought: maybe the mother didn't come back cause Prana murdered her for what she did...?)
@Jozie

That's true. Though, strictly speaking, we don't know if the "I'll come back for you, sweetheart" voice was meant to be the person who left her on Jakku, as the vision was changed drastically, and in the book she hears sounds of battle in the background when she hears the voice. (It could even be from the future!) But of course it's most likely that it was indeed the person who left her.

Not necessarily her father, though: it could be a brother, a grandfather, an uncle, a stepfather, who knows...

I wish we had at least one or two real clues regarding Rey's parentage. JJ's mystery box didn't really give us anything to go by.
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Post by Little_Boots on Tue 19 Apr 2016, 11:26 am

I love the Rey being a Princess idea and King Prana too. It was one of my earliest theories Smile but now since you guys noticed this Prana more than me I'm excited, especially since he's mentioned also in the book being seen as a bad guy. Heck why not. New Star Wars Princess would make me happy, and if it doesn't happen then oh well.
Even Pablo tweeted Rey could be a Crawley. I immediately thought hmmm, Aristocrat. However it was very random tweet.

@Darth Dingbat findings is amazing Very Happy
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Post by CienaRee on Tue 19 Apr 2016, 12:41 pm

Personally I'm interested in who Rey's parents are not so much because they're Rey's parents but because they would expand the EU.Them wiring DS and/or served the Empire would be especially interesting to me-were they good people thinking they we're serving a good system or were they bad people loving the chaos they're causing or maybe they were something in between those two things.
I think wanting Rey to not be defined by who her parents is doesn't mean you can't be interested in her parents.

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Post by Sylvia Snow on Tue 19 Apr 2016, 12:42 pm

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Post by CienaRee on Tue 19 Apr 2016, 12:48 pm

Those arts are beautiful.It would be great if Reylo become as iconic as Han/Leia
Honestly,I think by the end of the trilogy the problem wouldn't be Rey being defined by her parents but rather those people whoever they are being defined as her parents.That is if they wait until episode 9 to reveal who Rey is.

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Post by spacebaby45678 on Tue 19 Apr 2016, 12:49 pm

Heroes in Myth & Fairy Tales; Everyday heroes or children of the legends.


Star Wars Myth of Fairy Tale?

“Lucas set out to create a modern mythology to teach right and wrong. The result was a fusion of "Flash Gordon Conquers the Universe" and Joseph Campbell's "The Hero with a Thousand Faces," of Arthurian legends and Japanese samurai epics, of Carlos Castaneda's "Tales of Power" and the Narnia tales of C.S. Lewis. “

In determining whether Rey the protagonist of Star Wars will be a random everyday hero , or a child of legend with an important lineage it is important to determine what kind of story the Star Wars Saga is. Is it a simple child’s fairy tale? Or is it a modern mythic saga? Like any great work of art, Star Wars can work on many levels, depending upon its audience, it can be just a great adventure sci fi in space, or children’s fairy tale teaching simple morals or it can be a basis to understand philosophy, spirituality and metaphysics.

The key concept that takes it out of the realm of fairy tale into the world of mythic belief system that is the Force. The Force itself acts as a God force.  I will propose that although it does use fairy tale motifs frequently ultimately the saga is underpinned using concepts derived from ancient myth and religion. Lucas lifted parts openly and lovingly from various popular culture genres, but the engine that runs it is the "monomyth and held together at its most basic level the standard pattern of the adventures of a mythic hero”

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“The Force is defined as "an energy field created by all living things. It surrounds us and penetrates us." It contains both good and evil. Jedi master Yoda clearly teaches a form of Buddhism. Yet the Lucas liturgy also proclaims "May the Force be with you," a variation on the Christian phrase "May the Lord be with you." The plot includes other symbols and themes from biblical faith. Lucas has embraced both "passive Oriental philosophies and the Judeo- Christian ethic of responsibility and self-sacrifice," according to Pollock. “

Rey Random?

“But in all the orphan fantasies and myths, you always find out who the parents are. and lo and behold, they always turn out to be heroes and kings, not the maid pregnant by the stable boy or the poor couple down the lane who have simply had one child too many”

There are important characters in Star Wars who integral to the plot who are random characters or we do not know their beginnings. However, when they first are introduced they are important and bring something vital to the story that moves saga forward. Padme, Han & Obi Wan are all randoms because the Saga is not about them, it is about Skywalkers. They are supporting characters, best friends and love interests but they are all now ancestors and part of famed lineages because of the roles that they played, with the exception of Obi Want(yet).

Typically, most random orphaned heroes the audience enters their narrative with their journey as babes and we learn the where and the whys of their abandonment and get to root for them through their growth arcs and fall in love with the character. Unlike other heroes that are random we the audience enter the story at their beginnings. Moses’s the Hebrew savior that would become a great magician and leader, his story begins when because great danger from the Pharaoh’s slaughter of the first born, he is abandoned in the bull rushes and fate and destiny have the Pharaohs daughter raise him. In modern myth like Harry Potter, it is the same, we see Harry dropped off at his Aunt’s and Uncle as a mere babe by Professor Gonegal and well-known wizard Albus Dumbledore

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TV. Tropes
“What better way to introduce the protagonist of the story than start at his/her birth? This device is used often and is used to have the audience fall in love with the character, because who can't love a baby?
Mainly comes in two types. Type 1: Work literally begins from the birth of the protagonist. A Time Skip or two are permitted. Type 2: Protagonist is shown as an infant at the beginning. Might overlap with Doorstop Baby”

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However, when we meet Rey, she is a scavenger, 19 years old she was orphaned child raises herself watched closely by the creature Unkar Plutt. We the audience don’t know the where and the why’s of Rey’s abandonment, it is all a mystery. What we do know about her is that she has survived in the wilderness, by her whit and physical prowess. We don’t have her background story, instead motifs from the Star Wars universe itself and some fairy tales are used to one gain the interest of the audience. But, the audience begins to notice that our hero is very good and talented at things without being given a reason why. So the audience rightly assumes she is of a prodigious lineage. Many in the audience assume she is a Skywalker/Solo but as we have found out outside of the movie she is neither. So who is Rey?

“In myth, when we're presented with children orphaned or suckled by animals, it's generally a sign that their true parentage is actually a remarkable one and they'll grow up to be great leaders, warriors, seers, magicians, or shamans. As they grow, their beauty, or physical prowess, or magical abilities betray a lineage that cannot be hidden by their humble upbringing. Rarely do we encounter a hero whose origins are truly low; at least one parent must be revealed as noble, supernatural, or divine. After a birth trauma and a miraculous survival always comes a span of time symbolically described as "exile in the wilderness," where they hone their skills, test their mettle, and gather their armies, their allies, or their magic, before returning (as they always do) to the world that is their birthright.”

Rey Lineage?


“The orphaned hero is not, however, a mere fantasy cliché; it's a mythic archetype, springing from some of the oldest stories of the world. This archetype includes not only those characters who are literally orphaned by the death of their parents, but also children who are lost, abandoned, cast out, disinherited by evil step–parents, raised in supernatural captivity, or reared by wild animals.”

Our two previous protagonists in the Star Wars saga one is random Anakin, and one is not Luke. With Anakin, the narrative begins when he is very young following the trope so that we can fall in love with him. Luke is not Random for he shares lineage with Anakin the great Jedi and fallen hero. George Lucas had written the saga in order so even though the movie where scene by the audience out of order, the lineage for Luke was always there.

However, this is not the story we get with Rey in TFA, her story begins when she is a full grown adult 19, albeit in suspended animation both emotionally and physically until she is called to her adventure. This type of narrative arc is in opposition to random abandon orphaned babes of fairy tales. Rey’s archetype more narrowly follows the myth of an orphaned child of lineage origin.  As opposed to Luke “with Whose behavior at the beginning of the movie is that of a spoiled child...He whines, sulks, and is generally rebellious. By the end of the movie, however, he has begun to evolve into an honorable, respectable young man. Instead we see immediately that Rey is patient, steadfast, and loyal. She rarely complains or whines about her circumstances.

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“We find them everywhere in fantasy fiction: the "orphaned heroes," young men and women whose parents are dead, absent, or unknown, who turn out to be the heirs to the kingdom, the destined pullers of swords from stones, the keys to the riddles, the prophesies' answers, the bearers of powerful magic”

In conclusion, Star Wars is a metaphysical myth with layers of Fairy Tale. These metaphysical and spiritual concepts of the force are what clearly elevate Star Wars from mere fairy tale to modern myth. If there is no genre confusion by the current TPTB Rey will not be Random.  While her character and plot bears motifs of fairy tales like Beauty and the Beast, her underpinning as a character will come from both what she chooses to do in her mythic Hero’s journey and what she discovers about her past and what she is ultimately longing for, family. Where will she get her lineage from or not only time will tell.


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Post by Maria Antonietta on Tue 19 Apr 2016, 1:07 pm

@Sylvia Snow

I HAVE FEEEEEELS
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Post by Guest on Tue 19 Apr 2016, 2:33 pm

Hehe, so true Smile

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Post by Maria Antonietta on Tue 19 Apr 2016, 2:47 pm

bela.mesecina wrote:Hehe, so true Smile

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@bela.mesecina

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH lol!
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Post by spacebaby45678 on Tue 19 Apr 2016, 5:13 pm

@Gemini wrote:Think about this.

With Luke her journey is mirroring obi WANs going forward in ANH

With ren, it is mirroring obi WANs journey with anakin going backwards, bringing boy Ben back boy anakin is who obi wan first meets
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Wow this is an incredible find and realization. cheers
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Post by vaderito on Tue 19 Apr 2016, 8:23 pm

@Spacebaby45678 That's an amazing meta! Yeah, I think that reywalkers suspect correctly that she isn't of low origin but someone important but their focus is on the wrong progenitor.

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Post by Darth Rowan on Tue 19 Apr 2016, 8:31 pm

Your meta is outstanding, @spacebaby45678 . Eloquent and well researched. Thank you so much for sharing! Claps  

Would you mind adding it to the metas thread?

I also feel like it's unlikely that Rey will be anything but highborn somehow. Aside from the things you point out in your meta - lineage is key in Star Wars - there's too much mystery surrounding her origins for it to be anything other than special. Unlikely for them to go "Psych! JK, she's actually just some random girl after all!" XD

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Post by Guest on Tue 19 Apr 2016, 9:06 pm

@spacebaby45678 Absolutely love your meta! Claps

Just thought I'd post this about of interest. I know the Rey Skywalker theory has been debunked, but back when TFA came out a UK film critic called Mark Kermode (an amazing critic and my personal favourite) basically said what we've all said and called it "too obvious". I know it's not that relevant now, but I found it interesting that he's said this when so many others have been sold on the Rey Skywalker theory. I think he's open to the Rey Kenobi theory though. Wink

I should point out that's he's not a fan of Star Wars. He only loved TFA and respects ESB as a piece of filmmaking and the big plot twist, but that's about it Wink.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zSmCr5Wd52I

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Post by Sylvia Snow on Wed 20 Apr 2016, 12:29 am

Honestly at the moment, I don't think King Prana is Rey's father as much as I love the ideal of her being a princess. I personally think Prana is a clue, I made a post in the General Snoke discussion with more details but in short I think it's ties to Snoke who I think could be an Unidentified alien philosopher who trapped on his science vessel for a very long time. The vessel are called " Prana Lexander"
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Post by SoloSideCousin on Wed 20 Apr 2016, 2:19 am

@snufkin wrote:If you're gonna be related to anybody significant, Hell yes my vote would be for Obi-Wan, or the combined awesomeness of Ewan McGregor and Sir Alec Guiness. But even more awesome would be nobody well known. Nobody talks about Han's lineage because he's so awesome and self possessed, he's totally his own person and came from completely humble origins. I would love to see it be the same case with Rey. Obviously there is a mystery about who her biological family is and how she ended up fending for herself on Jakku (ideally I'd say it ties in with Snoke's creeper plans to snatch up kids like Ben and Finn as part of building the First Order), but please something new and more than just "I am your father" part two.
@snufkin

Ooohhh I like this.

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