Interesting EU Parallel to Han Solo Death Scene

Page 2 of 2 Previous  1, 2

Go down

Interesting EU Parallel to Han Solo Death Scene - Page 2 Empty Re: Interesting EU Parallel to Han Solo Death Scene

Post by Reynak on Fri 22 Apr 2016, 6:13 pm

@panki wrote:@Reynak

Warning: Long Long Post

Edit: I just read your post....it beautifully explains the conundrum I myself feel about these movies.....and unless they resolve it properly (I am hoping they do in the sequel), people will be left feeling cheated or lose interest.....Before the Awakening gave me some closure regarding Rey's abilities but I m still wondering how people can imagine any of the OT3 leaving her as a small child with shady Unkar Plutt......Dark Disciple has given me a few answers regarding why Kylo behaves the way he does but I hope to still learn more....Finn as you rightly said is bad writing and direction.....even the Before the Awakening novel didn't help me understand the character better Sad

I'm pasting some extracts from Dark Disciple that pertain to (1) Force Bonds and (2) Dark side training through torture. Now this novel is near identical to Revan and Bastila's story except the former sith is female (Ventress) and the jedi is male (Vos). I have a feeling some of these extracts can easily be applied to Rey and Ben Solo...and the torture scene references can be applied to Luke, Leia and Han....I can understand Ben Solo's obsession with the truth and also the references to traitors and liars and murderers...... Shocked

Let me start with the nicer one of the two-Force Bonds. I don't think people can hold actual conversations through a force bond but they can sense the other person's presence and emotions. In this book, Asajj Ventress is the only person who knows Vos has completely turned to the dark side because of their force bond. The other jedi are unable to detect it until he ends up sabotaging them, kills more than a 100 clone troopers and kill two of his friends using the jedi mind trick.

This is what Yoda mentions about them:
When one trusts another with his life, forged a bond is. In this position, neither Vos nor Ventress has been.

And this is when they acknowledge their force bond, though it formed earlier in the book:
Vos smiled at her, fully, freely. No shadow of regret lay upon him, only a calm certainty. An emotion surged through Ventress that was so alien she almost didn’t recognize it as joy. The name of another feeling, richer and deeper, hovered unspoken between them, danced on her lips—perhaps on his, as well.
They had a bond, real and vibrant and strong, that seemed to her to be unbreakable.


_____________

Now to dark side training through torture- the torture is both mental and physical....one can almost imagine Kylo trying to get information on the FO to help the resistance in the same way Vos tries to get information from Dooku.....now there is a part where Count Dooku makes Vos use psychometry on a lightsaber....I immediately thought of Snoke/the KOR making Kylo touch Vader's burnt helmet in a similar situation....

There was no way for Vos to reckon the passage of time in the cell. It could have been a few days, or a month. The lights were always on. Meals, when they came, were at irregular intervals. Droids monitored his sleep patterns to ensure that he was jolted awake in agony during the REM stage.

The count came when he pleased, in silence; sometimes to observe Vos simply hanging, suspended, while a torture droid went about its programming. Other times, Dooku entered the cell, casually blasting Vos with Force lightning so that the former Jedi Master was reduced to screaming and writhing helplessly.

Each time, Vos tried to get him to talk, to find out what Dooku wanted. The count liked to gloat, and it was possible that he might let something slip that might be of help—some reference to the layout of this place, perhaps, or an unguarded comment on troop movements.

It was a futile effort. Vos was nothing more than an animal tormented for no apparent reason save Dooku’s whim. And Vos knew, despite his training, both in the light and, now, the dark side of the Force, if that went on long enough…that was what he would eventually become.

So when Vos heard Dooku’s footfalls over the hum of the torture device that bathed him in erratic pulses of energy designed to target nerve endings, he was not hopeful. But he refused to give up.

For the tenth, or perhaps the thousandth time, Vos lifted his head. He twitched as another agonizing pulse seared him but bit back a cry. Dooku, as always, was smiling, as if he were a kindly grandparent watching a child at play.

For the thousandth, or perhaps tenth time, Vos asked in a voice raw from screaming, “Why not just kill me and be done with it?”

_______

Then some mental torture: (Think of Luke/Leia being used in this context instead of Ventress)

“Tell me,” Dooku said, “what did you hope to gain by teaming up with Asajj Ventress?”

All this time of silence, and he asked this? Vos was so surprised that the pain receded for a moment. The droid monitoring his reactions gave a passable impression of a frown and upped the level. Vos couldn’t entirely smother a hiss of agony.

“I think that’s…obvious enough,” he said through the pain. “I was…s-sent to eliminate you.”
Dooku stroked his beard thoughtfully. “It seems a desperate strike by the Jedi Council, not to rely solely on their vaunted Jedi Knights for such a task. Has the Order become so weak in my absence?”

Vos rallied as best he could. Looking Dooku square in the eye, he managed a chuckle. “Look around, Dooku. On every front, the Republic is winning the war.”

“I’m so glad you think so. But you are changing the subject.” He shook a chiding finger at Vos. “I was not asking you about the war. I was speaking of Ventress.”

Instantly Vos was on alert. He had been in so much pain when he had been captured, he wasn’t sure what, exactly, had happened. Had Ventress abandoned him by choice? Or had they forced her off? His memories of that night were so fuzzy… “Ventress has no sense of charity,”

Dooku went on. “She would not help you unless she had something to gain.”
“She sure hates you,” Vos offered.

“Of course she does,” Dooku replied. “But she never works with anyone she can’t control.”
A sick jolt went through Vos. He thought about the previous attempts Ventress had made on Dooku’s life.

Then, she was in the company of her sisters, or else had—quite literally—created and shaped what she had thought would be the perfect co-assassin.
Had she been creating and shaping him as well?

Have caution, Quinlan, Kenobi had warned him. Ventress is nothing if not manipulative. She won’t hesitate to use your trust against you the instant it serves her own selfish purposes.

“Well,” Vos said, forcing his voice to be confident, “maybe you don’t know her like I do.”
Dooku arched an eyebrow, suddenly keenly attentive. “No,” the count mused. “Perhaps I do not. But I see you do know her. Quite intimately, in fact, hmm?”
Vos didn’t reply.

Dooku stepped closer. “I sense much fear in you, Vos.”
Vos seized the chance. He would control the fear, turn it to anger; anger turns to hate, and hate made him strong. “You’re wrong,” he scoffed.
“I’m not afraid of you!”

“No, I don’t believe you are,” Dooku agreed. “But you are afraid.”

Vos tried to redirect his thoughts, to focus on the loathing he felt for the man standing so smugly, so
certain of his power, before him. But he was so weary and weak, and the pain kept directing his thoughts from strength to fear.
“Your thoughts betray you,” Dooku said, and despairing, Vos knew it was true. “Ventress was teaching you. Well, well…this explains much.”

“You’re wrong. There’s nothing she could teach me!”
Dooku shook his head and sighed. “You do yourself no favors by lying to me. You yourself said that you had a good teacher. Don’t you remember?”

Vos struggled to keep his face from revealing the stab of anguish as he realized that, indeed, he had forgotten. What else was he not remembering?

“I left the Jedi because I had grown beyond them,” Dooku continued. “But I see now that you and I, Vos, have much in common.”
Vos rallied at the abhorrent words. “You and I are nothing alike. You’re a traitor!”

“And what are you?” Dooku’s normally modulated voice cracked like a whip. “You were raised in the Jedi Temple, but now you reek of the dark side! Soon enough, you will stop denying the truth of so very many things. And you will understand that I am not a traitor, but a visionary!

Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hatred leads to suffering.”
The count nodded to the torture droid. This time, Vos convulsed in the grip of the blue crackle of electricity.

“But what the Jedi failed to teach you, what I have learned, is how to persevere, to pass through the suffering, and achieve ultimate power!”
Dooku nodded again. The pain stopped. Sweat ran down Vos’s face. His heart was racing, his body quivering in remembered agony. “Do not worry, my apprentice.

The lessons that Ventress began—I shall now complete.”
He waved a dismissive hand to the droid, and Vos tensed in anticipation of the next wave of electricity that would jolt through his body. Dooku turned.

_______________________

And now a combo to physical and mental torture:

More time passed. More torture, more screams, more nightmares in the few moments when Vos passed out long enough to have them. He dreamed of darkness and blood, of fear of danger known, which was bad, and danger imagined, which was worse.

The worst dreams of all were of Ventress. Sometimes she was his torturer, sneering as she blasted him with Force lightning, reveling in his pain.

She told him that everything she had said, everything they had shared together, was a lie, and reveled in the fact that this hurt him far more than physical pain.

But the dreams Vos dreaded even more than those were the ones where he held Ventress in his arms.
When she told him she loved him, and he knew it to be true.

His senses had grown dull. He had no taste or hunger for food, no sensitivity to anything but the agony of the various methods the droid used to inflame his nerves or lacerate and then heal his body. Vos alternated between numb and sluggish and excruciatingly alive with torment. He ate only because some part of him knew he needed to keep up what little strength he had left. He, Dooku, and the droid had been performing this dance for enough time that Vos’s muscles were beginning to weaken, except for those that screamed constantly from being placed in positions they were never designed to execute. The dreams this time had been particularly bad, so when the droid came to awaken him, Vos actually welcomed it. He was surprised when the droid deactivated the force field that had held him suspended by his arms. Unable to catch himself, he fell awkwardly as he dropped a meter to the floor. Stiff from lack of movement for so very long, his shoulders and arms were on fire, and Vos bit back a scream. It felt like the snake venom that had coursed through his system on Dathomir, which led back to thoughts of Ventress.

“Get up,” the droid ordered. When Vos failed to comply, the droid signaled. Two battle droids appeared and snapped to attention. The torture droid deactivated the force field and the battle droids stepped inside. They wrenched Vos’s arms behind his back and snapped on a pair of binders, then each took one of his arms. As they dragged him out of the cell, the agony in his arms increased a thousandfold, and once again blackness descended.
________________

And now mental torture:

Vos came to when he was tossed to the ground. He lay there for a moment, then became aware of the smells. Roasted meats, the tang of freshly cut fruits, the sweet fragrance of just-baked pastries—real food, not the tasteless stuff he had been forced to consume. Moisture flooded his mouth, and for the first time since the hideous ordeal began, his stomach rumbled. Slowly, hissing, he pushed himself up to a kneeling position and took in his surroundings.

The room was large and lavish. Fine art from a variety of worlds hung on the walls. The carpeting beneath Vos was thick and comfortable. Soft music came from somewhere, and a large, ornately carved cabinet hung on the wall. All these things, Vos noticed only fleetingly. His eyes were riveted on the display before him, which was both inviting and obscene. There were, quite literally, dozens of foodstuffs on a dining table that could easily have seated sixteen.
And at the head of it, pouring effervescent wine into a fluted glass, sat Count Dooku.

He lifted the glass in a toast to Vos. “Welcome,” he said, and drank.
This was perhaps the worst torture yet, but Vos steeled himself. If Dooku thought to see him beg for table scraps, the count would be sorely disappointed. Vos swallowed so he could speak. “Well, look at you and your pampered life.” His voice dripped contempt. “Your servants, your feast, your palace. It must have been so easy for you to turn your back on the Jedi Order.”

Dooku cut another bite from the thick, rare steak and lifted it to his mouth. Juices dripped onto the plate.

He chewed with obvious enjoyment, dabbed at his lips with the napkin, and then replied.
“Yes,” he agreed, “I live a privileged existence now. But like you, Vos, I too was taken from my home
as an infant and raised in the Jedi Temple. It was only later in my life that I discovered my true heritage— a legacy of power and pedigree that was far too intimidating for the Council to accept.”

A plate was set at the far end of the table. Food was within easy reach of it, and the flute of wine had been filled. Clearly, Vos would be welcome to dine with the count—if he requested it. Vos tried to decide which was the smarter course of action—refusing to give Dooku the satisfaction of eating, or taking the chance to consume some real food that would increase his strength.

“Pedigree,” he scoffed. “Like an animal. You could have done so much, helped so many people. Instead you used that legacy to spread your evil throughout the galaxy.” The fragrance of the freshly baked bread in front of him almost broke him. Dooku rose from his seat, setting down his napkin and picking up his glass of wine. He walked to the entrance of a large, open balcony and pulled back the gently billowing curtains. For the first time since he had been taken, Vos had a sense of time. It was night, here on whatever world he was on, and the stars glittered serenely, teasing him with a freedom he didn’t have.

“Evil?” Dooku chuckled. “What a childish notion. Unworthy of you, Vos. Today’s lesson begins with this.” He turned and regarded Vos, the glass still in hand. “There is no good or evil. Only those with power, and those without it.”

Vos grunted in disgust. He had decided against eating. If he started, he wasn’t sure he could stop, and he refused to let Dooku see just how famished he was.
“Your Master Tholme understood this.” Dooku tossed out this verbal grenade with utter casualness. For a moment a sheet of red darkened Vos’s vision, and he was so outraged he couldn’t breathe.

“How dare you speak his name! You murdered him!” Dooku looked convincingly surprised, and then almost sad. “Ah…so that’s what she said.

Given your, er, relationship with Ventress, I wondered if you knew the truth. It was she who killed your Master, not I.”
“You lie!” shouted Vos, trying to rise. The droids shoved him back down.

“No, Quinlan. I don’t have to lie.” Dooku shook his head. He stepped into the hall and motioned. A moment later, a squat technical droid rolled into the room. Dooku went to it and tapped a few controls as he spoke.

“One of the many advantages of having a droid army in the field is the ability to study the battle recording. Win or lose, I always find the holorecord…illuminating.”

A final tap, and Dooku straightened. The droid chirped and then began to project the scene of a battle on a planet Vos couldn’t identify. He could make out the figures of what seemed like countless battle droids locked in combat with hundreds of clones. A major conflict, then. Vos’s throat tightened, dreading what he would see.

“Magnify,” ordered Dooku. The hologram shifted, then narrowed its focus to a handful of combatants. One of them was Master Tholme. Despite himself, Vos gasped slightly. He was surprised at how painful it was to behold an image of his Master. Tholme’s gray-streaked black hair was held back in a long ponytail. He stood his ground, his lightsaber, green as Vos’s own, a blur as he shouted out orders and cut down battle droids. Suddenly there came two flashes of red. A woman—bald, pale as the stars, clad in black leather and expertly wielding twin lightsabers, appeared.

Asajj Ventress.
The Jedi and the Sith acolyte engaged in a heated fight. Ventress’s lightsabers had unusually curved hilts, so that she needed to wield them in a slightly different manner from the standard, straight lightsabers. Vos watched, forgetting to breathe, horrified but unable to tear his gaze away from the brutal spectacle. Then, so swiftly Vos couldn’t even see what happened, Ventress had gotten the upper hand.

Tholme’s lightsaber went flying. Ventress pointed both her weapons at Tholme. He raised his hands and knelt before her. Surrendering.
Ventress ran him through.

One glowing blade pierced Tholme’s heart. The other gutted him. Vos’s beloved Master fell to the ground.

“Freeze” came Dooku’s voice, as if from far away. Vos’s blood thundered in his ears. He stared at the miniature Tholme, dead, and at the tiny Ventress, standing before the treacherously slain Jedi and grinning in triumph.

“Ventress was a fair apprentice,” Dooku continued. “However, as she became more powerful, her lust for bloodshed could not be sated. She grew ever more violent and unpredictable.” Vos stared, his gaze roving the face he had caressed, the lips he had kissed.
“She slaughtered Master Tholme, against my orders. We had the battle won, there was no reason to justify the death of an old friend.” Dooku’s voice, bizarrely, was kind, like that of a father comforting a devastated son.

“But—why would she do this? Keep this from me?” Vos’s voice sounded shattered, even to him.

“Ventress has a hunger for power. That is what she truly desires, and she would do anything, lie to anyone, to get what she wants.”

Dazed, Vos shook his head. His whole body ached from the motion. “No. No, not to me.” Dooku stepped closer, staring down at Vos. “Especially to you. I know. You thought you knew her, as I did. You thought she cared for you, but she was doing nothing but spinning a web of lies. Lies that I can free you from, as I freed myself!”

Vos didn’t answer. His gaze was fixed on the droid that had shown him such a horrible truth.
Or…had it?

He blinked. There was something about Dooku and recordings…what was it? And then he remembered.
Now Vos stared up at the count, his mind clear and focused once again, his voice strong.

“You falsified this recording,” Vos snarled. “You erased yourself and put Ventress in your place. It’s easy to do. You’ve tried to fool the Jedi with this trick before!”

Dooku looked at him sadly. “You grasp at straws, Vos. I understand why. It is a hard thing to accept, that the world you thought you knew was not the truth. It is difficult to step away from everything, to let go. But  do it, Vos. Come away from that false world. Join me!”
“I will never join you!”

Dooku turned away, pacing, now and then glancing back at Vos as if trying to make up his mind about something. “I think I must show you the cabinet, after all,” he said. “Truly, I would have spared you this, if I could have. Remember that I did try.” “The cabinet,” Vos repeated. “What’s that, some fun new style of torture?”

“That all depends on you, Quinlan. It will, truly, be in your own hands.”
“I think I’d like to go back to my prison cell. I prefer straightforward torment to this preposterous game you’re playing. You won’t break me, Dooku.”

“You know, I believe I won’t,” agreed the count, surprising Vos. “But you will break all the same. And it will be your choice to do so.”

Dooku walked toward the end of the room and stood before the cabinet. Vos tensed, not knowing what new horror Dooku would subject him to this time.
“Your proof is in here,” Dooku said.

“You think if your little holoshow didn’t convince me, something else will?” Vos sneered.
“I do,” the count replied with complete confidence. A chill shivered through Vos. Dooku seemed so certain. Vos felt sweat break out on his forehead and beneath his arms. What the hell was in that deceptively ordinary-looking cabinet? With one final, almost regretful glance at Vos, Dooku opened the cabinet’s double doors.

Mounted with great care, resplendent against a padded background of blue velvet, hung at least twenty lightsabers. A portion of the case was bare; Dooku had left room for the collection to expand. Vos swallowed hard, fighting nausea, unable to tear his eyes away. “Whenever Grievous or Ventress cut down a Jedi, they brought me these little souvenirs of the battle,” Dooku said in a casual tone. “They make for quite the handsome display, don’t you think?”

I remember that battle.
You were there?
No. Dooku bragged about it to me. It was he who killed your Master. He even kept Tholme’s lightsaber as a trophy.

Blood thundered in Vos’s ears. The hilts were crafted of metal, or wood, or even gems, each as unique as the Jedi who had made it. With a soft sound Vos closed his eyes and turned his head.

“Make him look,” Dooku ordered sharply, and there was steel in his voice. A battle droid dug its metal fingers into Vos’s hair and yanked his head back.

“I believe in the old adage Know your enemy,” Dooku said. “I’ve spent a considerable amount of time studying the Jedi Masters. I know their strengths, their weaknesses—and their unique skills. For instance, I know that you, Quinlan Vos, have the rare gift of psychometry.”

And with a sickening realization, Vos suddenly knew what Dooku was about to do.
“Free his hands,” Dooku said to the droids. Vos stayed completely still as the droids obeyed their master. He flexed his wrists, ignoring the sensation of numb limbs tingling to life, and got to his feet, stumbling awkwardly.

“I’m certain you’ll want to determine the truth in a way it is impossible for you to deny,” Dooku continued. A thought seemed to occur to him. “Although…I imagine it will be more than a trifle unpleasant. Isn’t it true that, in addition to seeing and hearing things regarding the object you touch, you will also experience what its owner felt? Hmm?”

Count Dooku smiled, and held out Tholme’s lightsaber.
For a long moment, Vos simply stared at the weapon. Then, uttering a wordless cry, he launched himself at Dooku. The count did not appear to have been expecting this, and Vos was able to wrap his hands around the other man’s neck and squeeze, using the Force to increase the pressure. But even so, he was much weaker than the count, and Dooku broke the chokehold and sent Force lightning throughout Vos’s body.

While Vos writhed on the floor, Dooku got to his feet and ordered the droids, “Take him back to the cell.
But do not restrain him. And,” he added, handing one of them Tholme’s weapon, “take this with you.”

The droids each took one of Vos’s arms and hauled him up. Panting, Vos lifted his head.

“You can make me touch it,” Vos gasped, “but you can’t force me to read it!”

“I know,” Dooku said mildly. “But you will, Vos. Eventually, you will.”

_______________________________________

Ventress tries to rescue Vos but he has already turned dark...note the words he uses at the end of this extract:

The cells were all empty. Dooku must have finished with the prisoners she remembered and not
replenished his stock. Except for Vos. She ran down the hallways, glancing left and right into each cell,
rounding the corner—
He knelt, his back to her. His back was bowed and his body shook, as if with sobs.
“Vos!” Ventress cried brokenly, slamming the controls with her palm and deactivating the force field.
He froze, but didn’t turn around. A lump rose in her throat. Slowly, Ventress stepped forward, reaching out to touch his shoulder. “It’s me, Vos. I came back for—”
Still without turning, Vos lifted a hand and clenched his fist. Ventress shot into the air. Invisible fingers strangled her. Blood pounded in her ears as she clawed futilely at her throat, struggling to force words out.
“Quinlan…no…”
“You,” he said, “are a liar…and a murderer.”

_____________________________________

After this chapter, Count Dooku has successfully concerted Vos to the dark side and he is renamed Admiral Enigma....he starts killing both jedi and soldiers of the republic in battle...and becomes so feared that the jedi council want to have him captured and executed. Only Vos's friends Obi-wan and Desh want to save him.
__________________________________

Snoke said he wanted to complete Kylo's training in TFA....in this novel, Obi-wan, Anakin and Ventress come upon Vos in Dooku's starship and this is what they see (I remember one of the TFA accompanying materials mention that Kylo's skin looked like it hadn't been exposed to the sun in a long time...and I've always wondered why Kylo is so covered up... this extract caught my attention)

Vos hung, naked to the waist, from glowing shackles. His back was toward Kenobi, and Obi-Wan felt a pang of empathetic pain at the sight. Dooku, it seemed, had decided to forgo more elaborate methods of torture in favor of the basic ones. Vos’s broad back was a ribbon of older scars and newer welts; some were scabbed over, and not a few were still bleeding. His once-muscular but sleek frame was emaciated and pale, as if he had not seen the sunlight in months. He appeared to be unconscious. “Vos!” Kenobi rushed forward. He cradled Vos’s brutalized body in one arm while he slashed with his lightsaber at the shackles. Vos cried out sharply as his arms shifted from the position they had been forced to maintain for who knew how long. Obi-Wan eased him to the floor.
_________________________
@panki

Thanks a lot for adding all these extracts. Laughing This may be the way Snoke broke Kylo, with lies and flattery, prettending he is a benevolent fatherly figure and then with menace, torture and fear. I guess he doesn't know where he stands any more whatever his motives to join the DS initially were. I guess he cannot get away from Snoke or he thinks he can't, perhaps because he has nowhere to go as everyone things in the Light side he is a murderer. The problem is that in this book readers have a whole book to get to know the character and understand why he fell but in a movie time is limitted and too many people refuse to empathise with killers no matter what they went though or how they were brainwashed and conditioned. That's why I fear something like this won't stop all the Kylo hate. They will say they had a choice despite all the lies, pain and torture he suffered and he deserves the most severe punishment.
Reynak
Reynak
Jedi Knight
Jedi Knight

Messages : 671
Likes : 4230
Date d'inscription : 2016-03-25

Back to top Go down

Interesting EU Parallel to Han Solo Death Scene - Page 2 Empty Re: Interesting EU Parallel to Han Solo Death Scene

Post by Kessel on Fri 22 Apr 2016, 7:19 pm

@Reynak wrote:


Where the movie has failed, in my view, is by confusing viewers by mixing a heavily dramatic plot and characterization for Ben and his family's tragedy with an extremely lighthearted approach to Rey and Finn's tragic childhoods. There is no way growing up like they did doesn't affect a child and I can't believe they would react like the do in the movie. The problem is not this obvious lack of realism but mixing their archs with Kylo's, which really holds the weigh of real tragedy. This may make Kylo seem entitled and whiny (when compared to the other two) to those who choose to buy the less realistic approach and/or Rey and Finn's characters seem unconvincing and not very well developed in other viewers eyes.
@Reynak

I agree with this so much. It's not that we need to see Rey and Finn act entirely traumatized as they would in real life, but imho, they didn't really come across as an abandoned child made to work for her food (Rey) or a brainwashed child soldier (Finn).  Whereas Kylo's came across as someone who was emotionally damaged, brainwashed and groomed as a child.

There is such a disconnect between Rey and Finn's reactions to their pasts and to Kylo's reaction to his past. It's almost like Rey and Finn belong in a different story than Kylo sometimes because he has so much more depth than they do (especially compared to Finn).  Even the first time I saw the movie I thought Finn did not have the character of a former stormtrooper from a space nazi organization, he just did not. I will give Rey the benefit of the doubt as I believe (hope) the next episode will explore how her past affects her, but as of yet, the impact had not been very profound on her either.
Kessel
Kessel
Moderator

Messages : 1934
Likes : 13563
Date d'inscription : 2016-03-26

Back to top Go down

Interesting EU Parallel to Han Solo Death Scene - Page 2 Empty Re: Interesting EU Parallel to Han Solo Death Scene

Post by SoloSideCousin on Fri 22 Apr 2016, 8:13 pm

Kessel89 wrote:
@Reynak wrote:


Where the movie has failed, in my view, is by confusing viewers by mixing a heavily dramatic plot and characterization for Ben and his family's tragedy with an extremely lighthearted approach to Rey and Finn's tragic childhoods. There is no way growing up like they did doesn't affect a child and I can't believe they would react like the do in the movie. The problem is not this obvious lack of realism but mixing their archs with Kylo's, which really holds the weigh of real tragedy. This may make Kylo seem entitled and whiny (when compared to the other two) to those who choose to buy the less realistic approach and/or Rey and Finn's characters seem unconvincing and not very well developed in other viewers eyes.
@Reynak

I agree with this so much. It's not that we need to see Rey and Finn act entirely traumatized as they would in real life, but imho, they didn't really come across as an abandoned child made to work for her food (Rey) or a brainwashed child soldier (Finn).  Whereas Kylo's came across as someone who was emotionally damaged, brainwashed and groomed as a child.

There is such a disconnect between Rey and Finn's reactions to their pasts and to Kylo's reaction to his past. It's almost like Rey and Finn belong in a different story than Kylo sometimes because he has so much more depth than they do (especially compared to Finn).  Even the first time I saw the movie I thought Finn did not have the character of a former stormtrooper from a space nazi organization, he just did not. I will give Rey the benefit of the doubt as I believe (hope) the next episode will explore how her past affects her, but as of yet, the impact had not been very profound on her either.
@Kessel89

Rey has shown a good capacity for darkness, and PH has mentioned something about her memory not exactly being trustworthy. She may have experienced more than she remembers. So I think there is hope for her character as of yet. I would love it if Kylo seems something that she's been repressing.

As for Finn, I don't know ... I'm thinking they just dropped the ball with him, but even with him ... and I don't have the answer, but I hear you, and @Reynak, and @panki about Finn and Rey seeming like they're in another story. @vaderito has talked about this comparison too. I think part of it could be that the writers were just so enamored with Kylo that they just didn't care enough ... but I think another option is that the complexity of the Kylo parts could reflect the future, while a lot of Rey and Finn stuff were representative of the comfort food they thought they needed to bring the audience back, and I honestly don't think the comfort food is be anywhere near as present in Episode VIII. This isn't GL writing this next one. It's Rian Johnson, a guy who appears to be in love with complexity and who doesn't appear to be afraid of darker themes. I mean, sure, they will definitely keep part of the story lighter ...they have a section at Disneyland for goodness sake Very Happy (though Kylo is a big star and he killed his Dad, so maybe they're not that worried about it?), but I honestly think that some of the surprise in the next one will be that a lot of the cornball goofiness is going to go away. If they see their bar in terms of movies like Nolan's Batman and Iron Man/Avengers/Winter Soldier/Hunger Games, it will get darker. And darker usually means complexity. And who's going to get darker? Kylo's already dark. What are they going to do? Turn him into FS Hux? No, that would be tedious. Redemption is the interesting part with him. But for Rey and Finn ... for more interesting, you have to take some of the sunshine off of their faces.
SoloSideCousin
SoloSideCousin
Force Ghost
Force Ghost

Messages : 4733
Likes : 22914
Date d'inscription : 2016-03-25

Back to top Go down

Interesting EU Parallel to Han Solo Death Scene - Page 2 Empty Re: Interesting EU Parallel to Han Solo Death Scene

Post by vaderito on Fri 22 Apr 2016, 8:20 pm

Agreed with everyone about Kylo characterization vs totally dishonest characterization of Finn and Rey. Nothing to add.
vaderito
vaderito
Force Ghost
Force Ghost

Messages : 10336
Likes : 49922
Date d'inscription : 2016-03-25

Back to top Go down

Interesting EU Parallel to Han Solo Death Scene - Page 2 Empty Re: Interesting EU Parallel to Han Solo Death Scene

Post by BastilaBey on Fri 22 Apr 2016, 8:33 pm

Agreed. And I've seen defenses of Finn/attacks of Kylo phrased like "Well Finn is fine so why can't Kylo pull his s*** together?" Erm, maybe because the writers actually wrote him in a realistic way, whereas Finn and Rey's trauma was completely glossed over? I have to think they'll go deeper and darker with those two in the next movie because it just does not ring true. It's Disneyfied the way Finn suddenly switches sides, seems completely well adjusted, knows what a boyfriend is, is supposed to have lots of compassion and yet has no issue shooting his fellow stormtroopers who he was raised with?
BastilaBey
BastilaBey
Force Ghost
Force Ghost

Messages : 2350
Likes : 23522
Date d'inscription : 2016-03-25

Back to top Go down

Interesting EU Parallel to Han Solo Death Scene - Page 2 Empty Re: Interesting EU Parallel to Han Solo Death Scene

Post by Kessel on Fri 22 Apr 2016, 10:19 pm

A
@SoloSideCousin wrote:
Kessel89 wrote:
@Reynak wrote:


Where the movie has failed, in my view, is by confusing viewers by mixing a heavily dramatic plot and characterization for Ben and his family's tragedy with an extremely lighthearted approach to Rey and Finn's tragic childhoods. There is no way growing up like they did doesn't affect a child and I can't believe they would react like the do in the movie. The problem is not this obvious lack of realism but mixing their archs with Kylo's, which really holds the weigh of real tragedy. This may make Kylo seem entitled and whiny (when compared to the other two) to those who choose to buy the less realistic approach and/or Rey and Finn's characters seem unconvincing and not very well developed in other viewers eyes.
@Reynak

I agree with this so much. It's not that we need to see Rey and Finn act entirely traumatized as they would in real life, but imho, they didn't really come across as an abandoned child made to work for her food (Rey) or a brainwashed child soldier (Finn).  Whereas Kylo's came across as someone who was emotionally damaged, brainwashed and groomed as a child.

There is such a disconnect between Rey and Finn's reactions to their pasts and to Kylo's reaction to his past. It's almost like Rey and Finn belong in a different story than Kylo sometimes because he has so much more depth than they do (especially compared to Finn).  Even the first time I saw the movie I thought Finn did not have the character of a former stormtrooper from a space nazi organization, he just did not. I will give Rey the benefit of the doubt as I believe (hope) the next episode will explore how her past affects her, but as of yet, the impact had not been very profound on her either.
@Kessel89

Rey has shown a good capacity for darkness, and PH has mentioned something about her memory not exactly being trustworthy.  She may have experienced more than she remembers.  So I think there is hope for her character as of yet.  I would love it if Kylo seems something that she's been repressing.

As for Finn, I don't know ... I'm thinking they just dropped the ball with him, but even with him ... and I don't have the answer, but I hear you, and @Reynak, and @panki about Finn and Rey seeming like they're in another story.  @vaderito has talked about this comparison too.  I think part of it could be that the writers were just so enamored with Kylo that they just didn't care enough ... but I think another option is that the complexity of the Kylo parts could reflect the future, while a lot of Rey and Finn stuff were representative of the comfort food they thought they needed to bring the audience back, and I honestly don't think the comfort food is be anywhere near as present in Episode VIII.  This isn't GL writing this next one.  It's Rian Johnson, a guy who appears to be in love with complexity and who doesn't appear to be afraid of darker themes.   I mean, sure, they will definitely keep part of the story lighter ...they have a section at Disneyland for goodness sake Very Happy (though Kylo is a big star and he killed his Dad, so maybe they're not that worried about it?), but I honestly think that some of the surprise in the next one will be that a lot of the cornball goofiness is going to go away.  If they see their bar in terms of movies like Nolan's Batman and Iron Man/Avengers/Winter Soldier/Hunger Games, it will get darker.  And darker usually means complexity.  And who's going to get darker? Kylo's already dark.  What are they going to do? Turn him into FS Hux? No, that would be tedious. Redemption is the interesting part with him.  But for Rey and Finn ... for more interesting, you have to take some of the sunshine off of their faces.
@SoloSideCousin

Yes, I agree and I  hope Rian will delve more deeply into the psychological implications of the characters' personalities and past. I agree that Rey's past will be expanded on and a lot of her perceived "lightness" likely comes from repressed memories. She's going to have to confront that in Episode VIII and hopefully this will provide some needed depth to her character. I now wonder if Kylo has any connection to her past? With the new Bloodline timeline, I'm less certain of what Kylo's past entailed, so the possibilities have opened up somewhat, but who really knows.

I'd like to see Finn confront his past, show empathy toward his fellow stormtroopers and help liberate them, but based on his blasé attitude toward them In TFA, it would almost look odd for him to suddenly start caring about them in Episode VIII. So, I don't know if I see Finn becoming a very deep character, affected by his past, unless Rian does a 180 on him and alters his personality, but then he would cease it be the Finn we saw in TFA. He'd be a whole new character. I think the only person he cares about is Rey. I suppose that may be what he will "fight for" but it doesn't add anymore depth than what we saw in TFA. I think Finn will become a more competent resistance fighter who comes into his own, with more heroic moments, but he will still have his light and humorous moments too. I still have hope he'll somehow start caring about the stormtroopers...

I worry that Kylo will continue to be the character who does most, if not ALL of the emotional "heavy lifting." His character will be the one to go through the most pain, trauma and be the most affected by everything happening. I just want him to come out of it all in one piece. I don't have the same concerns when it comes to Rey and Finn, like AT ALL.


Last edited by Kessel89 on Sat 23 Apr 2016, 3:52 am; edited 1 time in total
Kessel
Kessel
Moderator

Messages : 1934
Likes : 13563
Date d'inscription : 2016-03-26

Back to top Go down

Interesting EU Parallel to Han Solo Death Scene - Page 2 Empty Re: Interesting EU Parallel to Han Solo Death Scene

Post by panki on Fri 22 Apr 2016, 11:52 pm

The funny thing is they don't hold back even in the children's novels as they did in the movies....in Servants of the Empire: The Secret Academy , we learn more about the origins of General Hux's stormtrooper program. His father Brendol Hux ran an Imperial academy and envisages a program where soldiers can be trained into obedience from birth. He uses the example of training baby nerf, with the implication that if the nerf doesn't co-operate, it will be killed. His son (General Hux) is trying to fulfill that dream. I can also understand why Phasma kept trying to save Finn for showing compassion for his fellow stormies in the novel Before The Awakening... if she reported him, he would have been dead.

Brendol Hux formed a society with his favourite students at the academy and trained them into his way of thinking.... joining this group was by invitation and he taught these cadets these twisted philosophies. Part of the rite to join this group was to kill a fellow cadet. I have a suspicion one young blonde cadet from Coruscant who was a particularly ruthless killer in the book grew up to become Phasma.

As @Kessel89 said, Kylo's character is the one who seems to be doing all the heavy lifting in the ST....Han's death scene being a classic example. While abandoned girl fighting to survive on a desert planet and a shady guardian and child soldier who probably lived for years in fear of being killed for showing kindness towards his fellow stormies (yet is able to kill the same stormies without a moment's doubt) are shown as well adjusted and likeable.....what I also found interesting is that he even put Poe in danger while trying to save Rey though all Poe ever did was show kindness and friendship to him....no wonder Kylo called him a traitor... he comes across as self-serving, not a good person, if one lifts the veil of fluff Evil or Very Mad

panki
Force Ghost
Force Ghost

Messages : 3345
Likes : 12489
Date d'inscription : 2016-03-24

Back to top Go down

Interesting EU Parallel to Han Solo Death Scene - Page 2 Empty Re: Interesting EU Parallel to Han Solo Death Scene

Post by SoloSideCousin on Sat 23 Apr 2016, 1:41 am

@panki wrote:The funny thing is they don't hold back even in the children's novels as they did in the movies....in Servants of the Empire: The Secret Academy , we learn more about the origins of General Hux's stormtrooper program. His father Brendol Hux ran an Imperial academy and envisages a program where soldiers can be trained into obedience from birth. He uses the example of training baby nerf, with the implication that if the nerf doesn't co-operate, it will be killed. His son (General Hux) is trying to fulfill that dream. I can also understand why Phasma kept trying to save Finn for showing compassion for his fellow stormies in the novel Before The Awakening... if she reported him, he would have been dead.

Brendol Hux formed a society with his favourite students at the academy and trained them into his way of thinking.... joining this group was by invitation and he taught these cadets these twisted philosophies. Part of the rite to join this group was to kill a fellow cadet. I have a suspicion one young blonde cadet from Coruscant who was a particularly ruthless killer in the book grew up to become Phasma.

As @Kessel89 said, Kylo's character is the one who seems to be doing all the heavy lifting in the ST....Han's death scene being a classic example. While abandoned girl fighting to survive on a desert planet and a shady guardian and child soldier who probably lived for years in fear of being killed for showing kindness towards his fellow stormies (yet is able to kill the same stormies without a moment's doubt) are shown as well adjusted and likeable.....what I also found interesting is that he even put Poe in danger while trying to save Rey though all Poe ever did was show kindness and friendship to him....no wonder Kylo called him a traitor... he comes across as self-serving, not a good person, if one lifts the veil of fluff Evil or Very Mad

@panki

Wow. That history of the training regime for the stormtroopers is actually worse than I thought. It's like non-FS Sith with having to kill someone. So the people who participated in that rite went on to train and "form the curriculum" of the stormtroopers. With trainers like that ... good grief, that would have to be the most paranoia-producing organization ever ... and actually paranoia would be the wrong word because the threat of death would be real and constant. My goodness, if they actually lifted the veil of fluff just a bit it would be incredible ... and a great acting opportunity for JB. They should at least have him have some kind of emotional meltdown at some point, because with that brainwashing regime he should have real psychological triggers all over the place.

SoloSideCousin
SoloSideCousin
Force Ghost
Force Ghost

Messages : 4733
Likes : 22914
Date d'inscription : 2016-03-25

Back to top Go down

Interesting EU Parallel to Han Solo Death Scene - Page 2 Empty Re: Interesting EU Parallel to Han Solo Death Scene

Post by Reynak on Sat 23 Apr 2016, 3:43 am

The problem is that by making Rey and Finn behave in such unrealistic ways they undermine Kylo's characterization's honesty and depth. If the approach was supposed to be dark and realistc it should be dark and realistic for the three of them and not real for only one and fluffy comedy like for the other two. This doesn't mean there shouldn't be comedy in the movie but it is as if they wanted it all in the same movie and got it all mixed up and confusing. I wonder why they bothered to set the basis for an incredible arch with Finn just to make him join the Resistance as if he was a boy with a normal background. It was a waste of potential and also a disservice to those who really suffered experiences like his. 

No need to be utterly realistic but creating expectations for nothing is not a good idea. And I think JB could do it so well. He gives the impression to get everything just fine and have a lot of potential as an actor.I like the guy and think he could make Finn memorable if they give him the chance. I always thought he'd become a sort of Spartacus for Storm troopers but the way he killed them in TFA was absurd, so it will be unconvincing if suddenly he cares for them in episode Vlll. It is so absurd to bond with his new friends in two days like that and not to give a damn for his companions that were as brainwashed and victimised as himself. They should be his cause above anything else. Liking a girl is not enough to change a man so much he can no longer see where his priorities lay or what his loyalties are.


It is the same with Kylo, he, as a man, matters more than Reylo and I'd like to see him see the light and not just leave the DS for love. Love can give him hope and a reason to fight but he needs to find his path and his own beliefs. If he is evil and changes for love I won't like it because I see that as unrealistic despite how often they go that way in too many movies and anime. Love can light the way but not change a bad person. If his/her views don't become or are deep down decent the evil character will remain evil, in love but evil, a devil in love. I can buy a devil in love but not an evil guy who turns automatically good when he falls in love. I'll take whatever they give me but I'll be very disappointed. This is because of the expectations they created with Kylo's haunting characterization, otherwise I'd have bought the lighthearted flick they offered me and probably forgotten it in no time. Kylo made it different and special. 

Rey has more depth than Finn but she also gets much more attention as a charcter than him. There's an edge in her and also shadows but I still think she is too unaffected by her experiences. In her Kylo related scenes she is much more interesting.

This is as if we grabbed the emotionally dramatic part of the story and others the cartoonish one ( Finn&Reys, for instance), as there seem to be two different movies in one (light and dark, LOl), we see everything differently and have completely different expectations, wishes and understanding of the movie.
Reynak
Reynak
Jedi Knight
Jedi Knight

Messages : 671
Likes : 4230
Date d'inscription : 2016-03-25

Back to top Go down

Page 2 of 2 Previous  1, 2

Back to top


 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum