SW Sequel Trilogy Metas

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Re: SW Sequel Trilogy Metas

Post by SheLitAFire on Sun 24 Dec 2017, 6:34 am

@shii405's Eastern Culture Analysis:

I have this huge fascination with Japanese jidaigeki and Chinese wuxia since childhood (although I am neither Japanese nor Chinese). For Japanese, I watched a lot of Japanese historical period dramas. For Chinese, I read Jin Yong books (classic chinese wuxia stories) and its TV series adaptations, which stories set in fictional ancient martial arts universe.

I find there is a fundamental difference between the western and eastern in fictional adventure stories. Western adventures is more about trying to reach a destination, like getting something to someone, like they know their goal already. While eastern adventures is always about soul-searching, the hero is trying to find a place, trying to find out who he/she is, without knowing what the goal of the journey is. Star Wars is more of that 'eastern adventure' type. It contains a load of the ancient eastern elements. The master and apprentice's relationships. Jedi is fancy version of samurai. Force is fancy version of 'qi' (inner strength). The family conflicts. The romance. The adventure. The philosophies. I like the fact that Star Wars is basically a family drama stylized with futuristic spaceship battles.

A lot of Chinese wuxia stories focuses on family problems and relationships (packed with a lot of kungfu fight scenes, ofc). In the Japanese warring states period, many families became enemies/opposite sides due to the fact they used their family members as political tools, a father would marry their daughter to the enemy's family/territory to form an alliance, but the alliance could break any time. The saddest and tragic moment for any jidaigeki drama would come from this historical fact.

George Lucas never said anything about being inspired by Chinese literature, but I can miraculously find so many similarities between Star Wars and the classic Chinese stories.

1. Luke Skywalker, being the good son and redemption of his evil father, Anakin.
Yang Guo, being the good son and redemption of his evil father, Yang Kang. (Return of Condor Heroes)
2. Yoda first met with Luke similar to Hong Qigong (North Beggar)'s first met with Yang Guo. Yoda was happily looking for food, the North Beggar was looking for food too. (Legend of Condor Heroes)
3. The fall of the Old Republic = The fall of Song Dynasty. The rise of the Galactic Empire = The rise of Yuan dynasty (established by the Mongols).
4. Luke having a crush on Leia not knowing she's his twin sister is similar to Demi Gods & Semi Devils' Duan Yu meeting his half sister and having a crush on her not knowing his father have a child with a woman other than his mother.
5. For this one, picture is enough.


Which JY wuxia power couple similar to Reylo? There were several "enemies becomes lovers" couples in wuxia stories. You can see lovers on opposite sides is very intriguing for the eastern culture.

1. Zhang Cuishan and Yin Susu in "Heaven Sword and Dragon Saber"
Cuishan is a guy from the righteous sect and Susu is a girl from the evil sect, their families, the whole martial arts world were against their marriage. Ten years later, after they had a son together, Cuishan found out Susu was the killer of his martial art brother (before they fell in love), complicated with another problem they were facing and being pressed with, Cuishan killed himself in front of their own families and the whole martial arts society as witnesses, and so did Susu.

2. Zhang Wuji and Zhao Min in "Heaven Sword and Dragon Saber"
Wuji is the son of Cuishan and Susu. He fell in love with Zhao Min, the Mongolian princess, descendant of Genghis Khan in the middle of the war between China and Mongolia. As the novel POV, the Mongolian described as the villains, the evil side. Wuji was leading the sect which his late mother belong to, and his people hate the Mongolian princess as she has caused many losses for the sect. In the end, Zhao Min decided to throw away her Mongolian status and severe ties with her family to be together with Wuji. Wuji lead his sect to victory against Mongolia, but then after he handed over leadership, he disappeared together with Zhao Min to secluded life, never to be found by the martial arts society again.

3. Linghu Chong and Ren Yingying in "State of Divinity"
Linghu Chong is the eldest apprentice of a righteous sect and Ren Yingying is the princess of an evil sect. They are both respected leaders of both sides. But what I like from this story is the grey area between righteous sect and evil sect. There are evil people in the so-called righteous sects but there are also good-natured people in the evil sect. The twist is that the true villain of this story is a leader of a righteous sect, Linghu Chong's very own master, who was disguised as a wise and gentleman in the first half of the story. There was not much opposition against the couple's relationship due to the grey area of virtue and evil in the story. But in the end, the couple decided to retire from the martial arts world and lead a secluded life.

4. Yang Kang and Mu Nianci in "Legend of Condor Heroes"
In this story, the Jin rules China, but the Hans were rebelling and hate the Jins. Yang Kang is the adopted son of the Jin dynasty's royal family without knowing his true birth origin. He was the birth son of a Han warrior whom wife was kidnapped by the Jin prince. His adopted father made an attempt to kill his birth father when he was a baby but he managed to escape, kidnapped his mother and made her his wife. 18 years later, Yang Kang's birth father adopted a daughter, Mu Nianci. In a twist of fate and adventure, the family meet again, and Yang Kang is not able to accept the fact that the Jin prince is not his real father. His mother decided to escape with his birth father, but he thinks his mother has gone mad. It became a tragedy when they were surrounded by the Jin soldiers and Yang Kang's birth father and mother decided for double suicide. It was a traumatic experience for him but he decided to stick with the Jins because he feel he was born a Jin. He fell in love with his birth father's adopted daughter, Mu Nianci. But Mu Nianci is a Han girl and she hates the Jins. She always plead Yang Kang to turn to her side and fight for the Hans because he is of Han origins. But Yang Kang's mind is that he is a Jin, he don't want to betray his adopted father who has raised him like his own child and he is a proud Jin. Yang Kang proposed to Mu Nianci and he wants her to be his royal wife in the palace. Mu Nianci rejected the proposal. They are involved in a romance while standing on opposite sides until the end and neither want to let go what they believe in. Their romantic relationship was filled with lies and betrayal. In the end, Yang Kang was killed by the main character, but Mu Nianci was pregnant with his child.

Lessons learned from the examples of wuxia "enemies become lovers" couples. What are the possibilities for Reylo's relationship development?

1. How did those couples fell in love and came to understand each other?
First case, Cuishan and Susu were stranded in an island together with an old hermit for ten years, they pretty much had no choice but to fall in love, lol.
Second case, Wuji and Zhao Min went through an adventure together to accomplish a certain mission that does not cause any loss for both sides and bring a little benefit to both sides.
Third case, it was really slow burn for Linghu Chong and Ren Yingying because Chong was still in love with another girl, the first time he met Yingying. But the definite event that showed Yingying's huge affection for Chong and a way to redeem herself, was when she carried heavily injured Chong to Shaolin and asked the monks to save and heal his injury, but in turn, the monks asked Yingying to be confined in the temple to pay for her sins of killing so many innocent people in her life. She sacrificed her freedom for Chong's life. That's when Chong finally noticed her unconditional love for him.
Fourth case, Yang Kang and Mu Nianci fell in love but not even once they tried to understand each other, extremely stubborn lovers.

2. How were the evil ones of the twos, redeemed?
First case, they were in conflict once they returned to the martial arts world ten years later and immediately committed suicide.
Second case, just because the Mongolian portrayed as the evil side in this story, it is really unfair to say Zhao Min has to be redeemed. She is just fighting for her country, protecting her family, proud of her Genghis Khan bloodline. I really hated it when Zhao Min was the one who severed ties with her family and country first, but then hated by Wuji's people. I thought it was not fair for her to be seen as the evil one. But I guess, this is her redemption. I am glad that Wuji decided to lead a secluded life with her, to be fair with her, leaving back his family and friends, at the end.
Third case, Yingying was confined in a Shaolin temple for months.
Fourth case, Yang Kang was killed and he was never redeemed. But then again I do not see why he has to be redeemed since he is just standing on the side he believe in. Though Yang Kang and the Jins are portrayed evil in the book.

3. How did they end?
So "enemies becomes lovers" in wuxia stories either ends double suicidal, one of them killed, or retire from the world and lead a secluded life together.

Among the above couples, I find Reylo resembles the 4th one the most, Yang Kang and Mu Nianci's relationship the most. Yang Kang's complicated family background and how Mu Nianci is the adopted daughter of his birth father. As Han Solo is the father figure for Rey. Mu Nianci stand on the opposite side, ironically, together with Yang Kang's birth family and relatives. Just as Rey stand together with Han, Leia, Luke on the opposite side. Well, this wuxia couple does not end well, BUT they are not the main couple/characters of the story, and they don't have Force bond that can help them to understand each other's mind, feelings, hearts, desire, wish, etc. So, Reylo will definitely get a different ending!

At this point, I think Reylo have not deeply fallen in love nor understanding each other. Based on the Chinese wuxia examples, Reylo needs a catalyst, a reason for them to fall in love and understand each other. Reylo can go for an adventure together for a certain Force-related mission that will not cause any loss for both FO and Resistance. Or, Kylo have to sacrifice something (not his life, pls) to prove his love for Rey and that he is worthy, maybe something like his Force-healing power to save Rey's life, in exchange of half his energy? Or like, Rey is badly injured and Kylo carried her all the way to a sacred place to ask certain powerful people to save Rey's life, in exchange Kylo will be confined by these people for redemption and maybe released a few years later? lol.

For a happy ending, I really can't see another happy ending other than Reylo lead a secluded life in the end. They have to meet in the middle. Ben will throw away power and FO, but he will not be able to join the Resistance or mingle with Rey's friends. To be fair, Rey have to leave the Resistance too.

As for Japan, I noticed some of the Japanese comments after watching TLJ was "Kylo Ren is sooo Vegeta!" LOL, if you know Dragon Ball, the animation series, Vegeta is one of the fans' most favorite characters. He was a prince of his home planet which was destroyed, a true jackass, extremely violent, terrible temper, think himself as someone on top of the world, and took a long time before he was finally redeemed. He started as a villain and the author meant to kill him earlier but the readers gave overwhelming responses about how much they love the character, so although the author didn't like Vegeta that much, the editors pushed him to keep Vegeta alive, lol. Even after he banged Bulma and have a child with her, he did not care at all about them, another character had to rescue Bulma and his child, while he didn't do anything. Later when his child was older, 8 years old, that was when he finally became the true ally of the main character, Son Goku, and sacrificed his life to save everyone on earth, and his last words to his child was "Take care of your mother" He died, but since this is Dragon Ball, he was brought back to life with dragon balls, as easy as that, lol. Vegeta started to have inner conflicts since he has a child. The more he fight together with the Earthlings, the more he feel belong to Earth... as much as he hate it, he feel comfortable being around his family and the other fighters, but he always denied it and always say "I only fight for myself, I have no intention to be your ally" and kept acting like a jerk. Later on at the end of the original series he admitted all those things. And in the latest Dragon Ball episodes, he would violently shred the enemy to pieces if he touch one finger on Bulma, his wife, lol  

Another interesting thing to notice, most Japanese comment "Whaaaat??? Rey and Kylo have the same situation (force bond) as 'Kimi no na wa' (Your Name)!?" "Your Name" is a very successful Japanese animation movie last year. Coincidentally, JJ Abrams just picked up the Hollywood live action version of "Your Name."  At least, that makes me confident JJ will definitely include another FB scene in IX.

There is one thing I have not figured out. I have never find any evil-turn-good character who have killed their parent and then get redeemed alive. They have killed many innocent people, yes, but I haven't find any who killed their parent for no reason. How to justify Kylo's act of killing his own father? Has there been any meta about this? Other than as a catalyst for him to return to the Light side? Because after TLJ, now we know that's not true.

@Piper Maru's Biblical Analysis:

The hand-sex scene and the book of Genesis:
Kylo and Rey finding balance (Light and Dark touching) are Adam and Eve eating from the "tree of the knowledge of good and evil". From the beginning, you get a sense of "forbidden fruit" all over their Force Skype sessions, complete with Rey calling him a "snake". The balance they achieve in that moment and the epiphany they both take out of the experience is similar to the knowledge of the tree, and they're punished by Luke (SW's version of "God") instantly.

The Force Skype sessions and the Song of Songs
A lot of their interactions via Force Bond reminded me of this particular book. The inherent sensuality, the banter between two lovers who are desperate to understand/find each other, and the transcendence bordering the erotic in their interactions are very similar to what I saw between Rey and Kylo.

Luke as a prophet:
Not only he physically resembles our visual interpretation of Old Testament God, but he has a lot of characteristics from several prophets (Jesus, John the Baptist, Isaiah etc.) I think @nonesuch wrote a meta a few months ago and she mentioned the parallels between Luke and Noah as well. When Luke gets his Heavenly ascension, the burden of knowledge is passed to Rey, the next "prophet".

Crait and the book of Exodus:
I thought Luke would be the Moses-like figure to help them escape, but turns out that Rey is the one to open the path for the Resistance to escape (floating boulders vs. parting the sea). She's also the one with the scriptures to create a new order (the Ten Commandments). And Crait is also red, which works as a visual metaphor for the Red Sea.
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Re: SW Sequel Trilogy Metas

Post by SheLitAFire on Sat 30 Dec 2017, 5:57 am

Ohtze's Kill the King and Take the Crown: Kylo Ren, Rey, and the Usurper/Holy Mother


The Evolution of Religious Iconography in Star Wars

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Re: SW Sequel Trilogy Metas

Post by twilekempire on Thu 11 Jan 2018, 5:43 am

In "Divine Union I: Honoring the Shadow" ashesforfoxes does a deep dive on Robert Bly, a writer whose work Rian Johnson has cited as an influence. I'm still mulling over the analysis and very impressed by it. It explains a lot about the themes I loved in the movie. I'm very excited that Johnson is going to do more SW films.
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Re: SW Sequel Trilogy Metas

Post by orangedelamer on Sat 03 Mar 2018, 9:32 pm

I found this article about soulmates in literature / movies. It would be interesting to analyse how it applies to Reylo:

I love this quote from Jane Eyre which you can find a part of in this article:
“You are my sympathy - my better self - my good angel; I am bound to you by a strong attachment. I think you good, gifted, lovely; a fervant, a solemn passion is conceived in my heart; it leans to you, draws you to my center and spring of life, wraps my existence about you - and, kindling in pure, powerful flame, fuses you and me in one.”

― Charlotte Brontë, Jane Eyre

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Star Wars Saga: "only hope"

Post by Riri on Mon 04 Jun 2018, 11:49 am

Hi, wanted to share my research with you all.

Here's a compilation video of the characters who have been referred to as the "last" or "only" HOPE for the galaxy in the SW saga. Featuring:
Anakin, Obi Wan, Rebellion/Resistance, Luke, Leia, Ben Solo/Kylo Ren, Rey.

Honestly that word is SO important to whichever character gets labelled with it. Roll on the Bendemption train!

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