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Post by Sylvia Snow on Fri 01 Apr 2016, 1:34 pm

@vaderito wrote:
@rey09 wrote:Probably not anything huge but just realized that Solo has sol. Sol = sun. Ben = son in hebrew.

Though etymologically speaking sol for sun and solitary from which solo comes from are not linked from what I could find.

Ben is the sun, Rey shines forth from it, and they illuminate the galaxy together Smile

It's quite possible where they got the idea for sun/son. Rey of Sunlight, Rey of Sol-light. or this ship and Kylo's redemption write themselves instinctively.

@Sylvia Snow Totally. he cannot deny the truth that is his family - both Skywalker and Solo. I'm so pumped to see Ben fly MF, hopefully not a suicide flight where he crashes it into Star Killer 2.0 or something to save the day.


I too, would not want that happened to Kylo or the MF, maybe he will fly with to get him and Rey out of some dire situation. He and Rey controlling MF together toward the future, now that something I would like to see  Very Happy
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Post by vaderito on Fri 01 Apr 2016, 3:04 pm

@Sylvia Snow wrote:

I too, would not want that happened to Kylo or the MF, maybe he will fly with to get him and Rey out of some dire situation. He and Rey controlling MF together toward the future, now that something I would like to see  Very Happy

me too!
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Post by Maria Antonietta on Fri 01 Apr 2016, 3:35 pm

@vaderito wrote:
@Sylvia Snow wrote:  

I too, would not want that happened to Kylo or the MF, maybe he will fly with to get him and Rey out of some dire situation. He and Rey controlling MF together toward the future, now that something I would like to see  Very Happy

me too!
Awwwwwwwww YAAAAAAAASSSSSS!!! H-beating
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Post by Darth Dingbat on Fri 01 Apr 2016, 3:58 pm

@vaderito wrote:
@Sylvia Snow wrote:  

I too, would not want that happened to Kylo or the MF, maybe he will fly with to get him and Rey out of some dire situation. He and Rey controlling MF together toward the future, now that something I would like to see  Very Happy

me too!

You know, that would have some Revan/Bastila echoes as well - the Ebon Hawk looks a lot like the MF.
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Post by SanghaRen on Fri 01 Apr 2016, 4:30 pm

There are many reasons for me that indicate a redemption and they've been listed over the 6 pages especially by @Search Your Feelings so I will not repeat them.

But what will stick with me is something that is just there to see with no special knowledge in metaphors and so on. Our last images of Kylo show him offering to be Rey's teacher, get his a** kicked and lying there beaten in the snow. And what is missing? Rage. There is 0 rage.

Since when does someone who just turned fully to the Dark Side look so quiet and astonished? He's like one of the quietest newborn full evil lord in the history of Star Wars.

I have heard from anti-redemption people that maybe it takes time to kick in. Say what? Honestly, let's just make it complicated and do now a delayed dark-side-turn effect. So how long do you think it takes? A few days? 1 day? 1 week? The guy has already some darkness in him, so is the effect quicker but not quick enough for us to see it in TFA? I know, it's going to be the twist of VIII (sarcasm).
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Post by BastilaBey on Fri 01 Apr 2016, 4:33 pm

@SanghaRen wrote:There are many reasons for me that indicate a redemption and they've been listed over the 6 pages especially by @Search Your Feelings so I will not repeat them.

But what will stick with me is something that is just there to see with no special knowledge in metaphors and so on. Our last images of Kylo show him offering to be Rey's teacher, get his a** kicked and lying there beaten in the snow. And what is missing? Rage. There is 0 rage.

Since when does someone who just turned fully to the Dark Side look so quiet and astonished? He's like one of the quietest newborn full evil lord in the history of Star Wars.

I have heard from anti-redemption people that maybe it takes time to kick in. Say what? Honestly, let's just make it complicated and do now a delayed dark-side-turn effect. So how long do you think it takes? A few days? 1 day? 1 week? The guy has already some darkness in him, so is the effect quicker but not quick enough for us to see it in TFA? I know, it's going to be the twist of VIII (sarcasm).
Yes to all of this. I also noticed the other day and posted in a different thread - when she's scarred him and he's trying to sit up, he says 'oh Rey, Rey' and it honestly sounds...affectionate. I didn't hear it in the theater - there's too much going on, but you definitely catch it on dvd and it's a little heartbreaking. She just totally kicked his a** and it's almost like he's worried about her. You definitely see his compassion.
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Post by SanghaRen on Fri 01 Apr 2016, 5:18 pm

@BastilaBey wrote:
@SanghaRen wrote:There are many reasons for me that indicate a redemption and they've been listed over the 6 pages especially by @Search Your Feelings so I will not repeat them.

But what will stick with me is something that is just there to see with no special knowledge in metaphors and so on. Our last images of Kylo show him offering to be Rey's teacher, get his a** kicked and lying there beaten in the snow. And what is missing? Rage. There is 0 rage.

Since when does someone who just turned fully to the Dark Side look so quiet and astonished? He's like one of the quietest newborn full evil lord in the history of Star Wars.

I have heard from anti-redemption people that maybe it takes time to kick in. Say what? Honestly, let's just make it complicated and do now a delayed dark-side-turn effect. So how long do you think it takes? A few days? 1 day? 1 week? The guy has already some darkness in him, so is the effect quicker but not quick enough for us to see it in TFA? I know, it's going to be the twist of VIII (sarcasm).
Yes to all of this. I also noticed the other day and posted in a different thread - when she's scarred him and he's trying to sit up, he says 'oh Rey, Rey' and it honestly sounds...affectionate. I didn't hear it in the theater - there's too much going on, but you definitely catch it on dvd and it's a little heartbreaking. She just totally kicked his a** and it's almost like he's worried about her. You definitely see his compassion.

I don't have the DVD. I am starting to wonder if they added stuff to the home release because I saw the movie 4 times and was very careful the 2 last times trying to catch words and I watched it on YouTube several times, I don't hear any "Rey". I just watched it on YouTube again with earbuds. He's just, well, panting from exhaustion. Like someone who had to carry a heavy piece of furniture - piece of information added in the hope of avoiding the start of anothe sex discussion Smile
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Post by vaderito on Fri 01 Apr 2016, 5:31 pm

@Darth Dingbat wrote:
@Sylvia Snow wrote:  

I too, would not want that happened to Kylo or the MF, maybe he will fly with to get him and Rey out of some dire situation. He and Rey controlling MF together toward the future, now that something I would like to see  Very Happy


You know, that would have some Revan/Bastila echoes as well - the Ebon Hawk looks a lot like the MF.

Rey and Kylo are BatB by the way of Bastila and Revan so that would work. I mean, it makes sense that they'll be together on MF at some point because a) she's got MF now and b) it's his legacy ship. Like, c'mon.
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Post by BastilaBey on Fri 01 Apr 2016, 5:34 pm

@sangharen Damn, now you've got me doubting my own ears again! I know @vaderito was part of that discussion too, wondering if they heard the same? It seemed very clear to me but yes he is also panting too obviously. It's before the earth separates them.
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Post by vaderito on Fri 01 Apr 2016, 5:44 pm

@BastilaBey wrote:@sangharen Damn, now you've got me doubting my own ears again! I know @vaderito was part of that discussion too, wondering if they heard the same? It seemed very clear to me but yes he is also panting too obviously. It's before the earth separates them.

OK, listened to it and it's hard to say. It sounds like Rey when he's getting up after she kicked him in the stomach (before she extinguishes his lightsaber) and right before/the moment of scarring his face. That's when he says something or grunts something that sounds like Rey. I didn't hear it while he was lying on the snow after the scarring.


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Post by Kylo Ren's 8-Pack on Fri 01 Apr 2016, 6:48 pm

I did not hear Kylo say 'oh..Rey..oh' at all during the duel scene when he is trying to sit up in the snow after being cut across his face.
In all honesty I think he is just trying to catch his breath and groaning due to the pain from his wounds.
After five in-cinema showings and a couple recent views elsewhere I am not hearing it.
He is exsausted and his vocals reflect that.
I can hear how it could be interrupted that way, though.

Since we are on the topic of the saber duel in the snow, and how Rey turned twice to look back his way before leaving on the Falcon......

I personally think she turned back to look towards him in the distance before boarding the Falcon because she was having a moment of conflict within herself.
She was doing the very thing that hurt her so much in the past to someone else - leaving someone behind, and someone injured for that matter.
Surely Rey felt 'wrong' about deserting Kylo after the duel.
Of course she may have felt bad about leaving him behind and wounded too...her compassion ( and possible attraction ) coming forward.

I always looked at the moment before she goes up the Falcon's ramp as her moment of hesitation.
She is reconsidering what she is doing..just for a moment.
She is leaving someone behind...just like someone did to her all those years ago....and it is having an effect on her during that brief moment.
I think it was still effecting her when she reunited with Leia.
She just left Leia's son behind, just like her own parents did to her on Jakku.
There must be a little bit of mixed emotions there for Rey.
Hearing about the deleted scene invoking Finn and his caretaker, Rey still seems to have it effecting her.
I would say the act of leaving Kylo behind will definitely be on her mind until she sees him again.

Just my thoughts on the matter, having been reminded of those scenes now.
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Post by vaderito on Fri 01 Apr 2016, 7:03 pm

Yeah, I'm with you 8 Pack. She definitely stopped at the doorstep and looked back because of Kylo. And possibly was thinking about him when she was at the hospital with Finn. Because her absent-mindedness made no sense as thinking about Finn when she was in the same room with him. She gave "faraway thoughts" kind of look.
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Post by Kylo Ren's 8-Pack on Fri 01 Apr 2016, 7:08 pm

I think the both of them will be thinking about each other quite a bit now.
The contemplation they are both likely going to experience will only cease when they finally meet again.

Then look out.....

Anything can happen!

Winks
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Post by AnneNeville on Fri 01 Apr 2016, 7:54 pm

The "Rey" sound is tempting, and the grunting and gasping is, too. I'm not sure that I buy "harder, harder" tbh. While there is certainly a sex metaphor in that scene, it's also a fight scene and the heavy breathing and exhaustion is understandably part of the surface story, too.
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Post by panki on Fri 01 Apr 2016, 7:59 pm

I thought I was the only one who saw it...but I thought he was saying- Rey, Oh Rey and trying to get up.....I also saw what appeared to be him mouthing the word Sorry to Han between the second lightsaber stab and before he said Thank you and Han touches his face....but I could be looking for reasons to redeem him.... Razz


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Post by rey09 on Fri 01 Apr 2016, 8:08 pm

I can't wait for the moment when Rey calls out "Ben!"

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Post by AnneNeville on Fri 01 Apr 2016, 8:19 pm

@panki wrote:I thought I was the only one who saw it...but I thought he was saying- Rey, Oh Rey and trying to get up.....I also saw what appeared to be him mouthing the word Sorry to Han between the second lightsaber stab and before he said Thank you and Han touches his face....but I could be looking for reasons to redeem him.... Razz

I doubt we will ever know for sure unless the subtitles give us further details.
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Post by Sylvia Snow on Fri 01 Apr 2016, 8:26 pm

@panki wrote:I thought I was the only one who saw it...but I thought he was saying- Rey, Oh Rey and trying to get up.....I also saw what appeared to be him mouthing the word Sorry to Han between the second lightsaber stab and before he said Thank you and Han touches his face....but I could be looking for reasons to redeem him.... Razz


Yes, I saw that, too. Before Kylo said "Thank you" to Han, he's mouthing a word, either "Father" or "Sorry"
To me Smile
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Post by panki on Fri 01 Apr 2016, 9:02 pm

@Sylvia Snow wrote:

Yes, I saw that, too. Before Kylo said "Thank you" to Han, he's mouthing a word, either "Father" or "Sorry"
To me Smile

You're right...he could have been saying Father..... I am going to watch and re-watch the blu ray many times.....so many things to decipher.... sunny



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Post by Reynak on Sat 02 Apr 2016, 7:29 am

The anti-redemption argumets certain sectors of the fandom repeat over and over based on their RL views on how justice must be exerted carry a very dangerous message, they imply that regretting one’s bad decisions and mistakes or the damage done to others makes no sense and is useless, because however hard you try, you neither should nor will ever be given a second chance. So people who are in dark places won’t be encouraged to change but to follow the same destructive path. What is the point of atonement if you will never be given a chance to come back to the right path?


Vader, for instance, was an older very broken man and perhaps the film makers didn’t dare to show him alive going into exile after everything he did because they feared outraged reactions from sectors of the GA. But Ren is young and never had a taste of life, if his appearance and attitide aren’t misleading. He also was molded by adults (Snoke) and circumstances (isolation, strained relatioship between his parents, lack of monitoring and/or effective support and guidandce during formative years, etc) into what he is now. That was the situation for him before he was old enough to be considered resposible for his own actions or had any real chances to take decisions, that’s why repenting and dying to gain a place next to Force ghost would’t work for the character. What can the guy gain if he turs his back on the DS then, death alone? The DS may offer him power and life (although Kylo hates living in the Darkness) and the Light only sacrifice to atone, which will never be enough to pay for what he’s done, and then death anyway. These choices clearly incline the balance towards staying bad, I’m afraid.

Vader gained something with his last minute turning, he saved his son, and this is the most important goal and reward for a parent. He had a very good reason to change, a powerful motivation and a worthy reward, preserving his family and thus his heritage, saving his flesh and blood. But for Kylo, even though he made the greatest sacrifice for Ray ,his dying would feel not only tragic but unfair for too many viewers because he is young and never really lived or loved, his life being destroyed as a kid and his chances stolen from him.

What’s more, saving Ray wouldn’t seem as rewarding as saving one’s child ( what Luke was for Vader) if this girl was never anything more than an infatuation for Ren. She branded and broke him, so if he is expected to make a dramatic sacrifice for her, she must have loved him back first. One sided infatuation doesn’t work as an convincing motivation to die for a woman a guy fancies. He needs to interact with her to really love her, then he could do anything for her, even dying to save her, but for us viewers to feel his sacrifice worth the price of his life she must have loved him back at least.

If he was a secondary character this might be different but I think he is the most important charcter in ST, more important than Rey because of his heritage and weight in the plot. He is, for the moment, the most dynamic character in the main trio as regards story telling, in the sense that he is the one already in the path to evolve and change. Finn could have been shown as conficted and in internal struggle as well, but they simplified his character and watered it down. And Rey is Rey, a precious cinnamon roll everyone loves far too esily, too much, and too quickly.

A character as important as Ren will be wasted if his only aim is to die while saving other characters with less weight in the plot, so only redemption and love feel worth his sacrifice storywise. After loving and being loved back he could die in a blaze of glory but not before, it would feel unsatisfying for too many viewers. I’d like more, but this would be satisfying enough for me. There is another reason Rey will love him back, legacy, because he is the last Skywalker and won’t have a child with a random character to ensure the saga continues, this wouldn’t work storywise either.

I still think he will survive, though, and the reason is Rey. She is the heroine, and the bond that links them feels mysthical, transcendental. Force bond, yin yang, predestined love, whatever the name we use to call it, she will lose her Light if he dies because their souls and their whole beings will ( or probably have already) become interdependent and their lives intertwined for ever. If he dies she dies too, or goes on surviving as some sort of lonely incomplete half-soul.

We can’t forget what SW is about, its priciples are mysthical and trascendental rather that ony human and individualist more often than not, so RL conventions don’t exactly work for SW universe, not like in our wold. I’ve never seen a character have several relationships in this saga, for instance, so the bond between Kylo Ren and Rey won’t be only about romantic love, it’s going to be much more powerful and meaningful than that, and as they are both FS and extremely gifted and powerful regarding the Force, what becomes of them will have a dramatic impact on the Force itself, its balance, and how this will affect the options for stability or conflict in the galaxy.


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Post by Maria Antonietta on Sat 02 Apr 2016, 7:33 am

@rey09 wrote:I can't wait for the moment when Rey calls out "Ben!"

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Post by panki on Sat 02 Apr 2016, 7:51 am

I just remembered the movie The Man in the Iron Mask (not the book)....and it got me thinking ....most people don't even know the identity of  Kylo Ren except Snoke, Leia, Chewie, Hux, Rey and Finn...even Poe hasn't seen his face or heard his voice....Lor San Tekka knew who he was but he died before he revealed Kylo's identity....so technically, if Kylo does change sides at some point and does some noble deed(s), maybe he only has to redeem himself in the eyes of Leia, Chewie, Rey, Finn and most importantly the audience....not the whole resistance and galaxy?

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Post by AnneNeville on Sat 02 Apr 2016, 8:01 am

Maybe . . . though it would be very sneaky of our beloved main characters to let him slip through like that . . . after all the very real crimes he's (apparently) committed.
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Post by rey09 on Sat 02 Apr 2016, 8:06 am

Well I guess it would more about having to answer to a few people as opposed to a huge tribunal which antis want him to go through.
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Post by panki on Sat 02 Apr 2016, 10:02 am

@rey09 wrote:Well I guess it would more about having to answer to a few people as opposed to a huge tribunal which antis want him to go through.

That is what I mean... Kylo Ren has to redeem himself primarily in the eyes of the audience and a few others...I doubt we're going to see a courtroom drama in episode 9, which would be so boring to watch in a space epic. Smile

@AnneNeville... I don't think he should get away with anything....he''ll have to spend his whole life living with his crimes and having to make up for it....I just don't see him getting arrested by the resistance, named and shamed...that would be one more cause for heartbreak for Leia as well...this is just my opinion, but he will do some major act of heroism...maybe not all will forgive him and nobody will forget what he did...but maybe they'll accept him back? Smile

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