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Post by Darth Dementor on Mon 28 Mar - 5:50

@YoloKylo wrote:I was just looking at Mara Jade's bio on wookiepedia and she started out being an assassin for palatine and killing rebels and the OT fanboys looove her.  So if the fans can accept her redemption then they can redeem Kylo.

Yep, you can also point out Elektra and Daredevil who started out the same way. Or his relationship with Typhoid Mary, another villian who the hero fell for. And Black Widow who started out as a baddie too. Yet no one ever says he's weak for falling in love with multiple antagonists. In fact it's one of the reasons he's a fan favorite.

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Post by jakkusun on Mon 28 Mar - 9:28

I don't even know what to make of this quote and photo pairing I saw on tumblr:
ARCHIVE: Can Kylo Be Redeemed? - 1 - Page 2 Tumblr_o4nvai6Q4h1ryvuwbo2_500
Imaged substituted for a definitely legal one from the trailer. ;-)

”When the weapons engineers fired the device, a breach was induced in the containment field. At incredible velocity and accelerating exponentially, the concentrated volume of quintessence escaped, transforming as it did so into a state known as phantom energy and following the artificial line of egress that had been provided. Assuming that the rotation and inclination of the planet had been taken into account, the released blast of concentrated phantom energy would travel along a perfectly linear path, punching a small Big Rip through hyperspace itself until it left the galaxy — or encountered something in its path that was of sufficient mass to intercept it.”

It just made me think a lot....
This is such an interesting and mysterious shot. The thing is The Kylo Ren can't and doesn't "intercept" or stop Starkiller Base, but maybe he wants to. He probably spent a lot of his childhood on these Republic planets. And now he is visually being shot by the weapon along with them....but the the camera goes to his face and he is watching from the sidelines, unable to do anything, unable to truly come between the weapon and its targets.
Most of this has been said a lot, but I like the photo/quote association.
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Post by SoloSideCousin on Mon 28 Mar - 9:44

@MeadowofAshes wrote:This is a speculation about redemption rather than an Ep 7 sign but... in EU, specifically KotOR the Force can be used to heal those near death. In the case of Revan/Bastila this created a Force Bond. Suppose in Ep 9 Kylo saves Rey and comes close to death and she heals him, infinitely strengthening the FB we already assume they have. So he redeems himself with a near/symbolic death and then they're even more strongly bonded. Oh the possibilities...

@Gemini had an amazing theory that followed along these lines that tied in with Romeo and Juliet.  @Gemini can you find that post and bring it over here.  I want to make sure that I am tagging correctly though.  Is it the same process at the old thread or different?

@Force22: "Minor again: his chosen name. Ren is a title. But why Kylo? SKYwalker SoLO. A little odd for someone who’s denying part of his family, especially the Solo one. Why chose a name that rhymes with Solo?
Seen from this perspective, his dialogue with his father makes a lot more sense. Also, doesn’t he know his grandpa turned? Well, maybe he does! Why does he asks for help? Because he’s doing a very hard job. Also, it that is the case, he would probably not be under anyone’s orders but his own, or perhaps Luke’s. His struggle is not to fight back the light, but to conceal it enough that Snoke does not see through him."

THIS!!! Something like this!!! It's like what @Reynak has been saying, there is something he thinks he needs to do, something he is willing to sacrifice himself for, something he thinks that he needs the darkness to accomplish.
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Post by SoloSideCousin on Mon 28 Mar - 10:11

@Reynak wrote:
@vaderito wrote:Remove brackets around http when pasting this link to this magnificent Redemption Meta that should give everyone some food for thought:

(http)://frolickingfizzgig.tumblr.com/

I wrote the following after reading @frolickingfizzgig's, which is fantastic and you can't miss. It is also about Kylo's redeption arc and related to what she explains in hers.

Beautiful and so well expressed. Thanks @frolickingfizzgig for sharing this insightful essay with all of us.

I especially love the part about this fallen son/sun’s rebirth and how the old SK weapon turned into a new star containg Han’s body as the ultimate resting place fpr a hero. This couldn’t be any more poetic and meaningful.

At the Resistance base, Leia told Han he had only been able to help when he aided to destroy Death Star (in ANH), which is not exactly true, he did much more than that to help her and Luke, but probably, he was no use to help their son when he needed them, when Ben needed him. So these words work as a beautiful example of foreshadowing as Han will save the day once more by helping destroy another DS, now called Star Killer.

And not only does he become the Resistance hero once again but this time he is also able to, in some mysterious way, save his wayward son. He approached Ben, which mean “son”, by the way, willing to do anything for him, ANYTHING. That felt like a sacrifice on his part and meant the beginning of Kylo/Ben’s redemption.

Kylo said to his father when he approahed him:

“Han Solo, I’ve been waiting for this day for a long time."
What did he mean? The most obvious take would be that he’s wanted to confront and kill his father for a long time, but the first and most obvious reading is never the right one with Kylo. I think he is hurt, deeply hurt, because for years he hoped Han Solo, the hero, his father, would come and save him, from his fears, his loneliness, his pain and finally the Dark Side. But Han never came for him until now. Now he tells him to go home with him, that he is missed, but now it’s too late for Kylo, or is it?

"It’s too late”
But Han saves the day again, SK is destroyed . What’s more, he also gives his life to change his son’s fate. It’s as if he exchanged his life for his son’s now that he has become a creature of Darkness who denies himself any semblablance of a life.

A new sun is reborn from that SK weapon , and a former source of death (SK) becomes the opposite, a source of life, a sun. This is what will happen to Kylo, we knew him first as a killer in the Jakku village but Han opened up the way back for him.

He feels weakened because he no longer feels empowered by the Dark. When he killed him, his father payed him back with love and forgiveness instead of resentment and hate, so he runs away towards the Light, embodied in the person of Ray.

I agree that he is like a medieval warrior monk who’s denied himself any form of positive feeling or pleasure for years, but he craves love and a life, also joy and company, so he can only chase Rey as he can’t restrain his emotions and deny his needs any more. He will have to find his way out of the Dark Side, and it won’t be easy but hard and painful.

However, the seeds are already there. He needs help, though, and I think Leia, Luke and Rey will be willing to help him in his struggle. Nobody was able to help him as a kid and this is a family friendly franchise. It would’t make sense to show kids there’s no hope for those who have fallen. Redemption is always possible if one gives up one’s old ways, regrets the wrongs made to others and oneself and really wants to come back to the Light/ right path.

I also love where Han will rest for ever, at the heart of sun, a burning resting place that resembles a burning Viking ship. It suits an old pirate /smuggler that was also a hero, not a perfect hero but more endearing , with his human flaws and loads of charm.

I want to believe this mirrors where he’ll always have a place, inside another sun(his son)’s heart, in Ben’s heart. He will feel like a burning wound now in his son’s heart, but one day the wound will hurt less and love will have won the battle.

How many real Han’s fans would want him to have died for nothing ? It’s only fair life and this saga bestowes him his ultimate wish, bringing his son back. This is anther reason why Kylo/Ben’s Redemption must happen and will happen. Han and Leia deserve it and Luke deserves it. The last Skywalker, the man they couldn’t protect or save as a kid , can’t die alone, desperate and lost in the the Dark.

I just wrote a post for this, but then it disappeared into the ether ... so if a similar one turns up, that's what happened.

To continue, I agree with all of this. Also, as I read this I thought of some banter between Han and Leia that might have just been considered requisite snark. Han says to Leia" "I'm just trying to help," and Leia says back, "When did you help ... and don't tell me about the Death Star."

Okay, so this is a little stream of consciousness, so please bear with me. :-) The turning point between Han and Leia was in ANH when Han came back and saved Luke from Vader so Luke could get the shot in for the Death Star. This was a moment of character growth for him and the start of his lifelong journey with Leia. By the time we them back together in TFA, her trust level for him is pretty low. But as they talk about Kylo/Ben and reconnect things get better. So what if this line wasn't just snark. What if it is foreshadowing that Han will "help again" with another "Death Star", this time not saving her brother, but saving her son. By sacrificing himself to Kylo and touching his cheek as he dies, Han "helps" her by setting her son on a path on which he becomes the "reborn son/sun", so once again, like in ANH, from the destruction of a DS, "a new life together" is born, and he "helps" her one last time by "bringing her son home."

I know it's a little corny, but I thought I'd point out a possible interpretation of those lines just the same. Smile
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Post by SoloSideCousin on Mon 28 Mar - 10:21

@jakkusun wrote:I don't even know what to make of this quote and photo pairing I saw on tumblr:
ARCHIVE: Can Kylo Be Redeemed? - 1 - Page 2 Tumblr_o4nvai6Q4h1ryvuwbo2_500
”When the weapons engineers fired the device, a breach was induced in the containment field. At incredible velocity and accelerating exponentially, the concentrated volume of quintessence escaped, transforming as it did so into a state known as phantom energy and following the artificial line of egress that had been provided. Assuming that the rotation and inclination of the planet had been taken into account, the released blast of concentrated phantom energy would travel along a perfectly linear path, punching a small Big Rip through hyperspace itself until it left the galaxy — or encountered something in its path that was of sufficient mass to intercept it.”

It just made me think a lot....
This is such an interesting and mysterious shot. The thing is The Kylo Ren can't and doesn't "intercept" or stop Starkiller Base, but maybe he wants to. He probably spent a lot of his childhood on these Republic planets. And now he is visually being shot by the weapon along with them....but the the camera goes to his face and he is watching from the sidelines, unable to do anything, unable to truly come between the weapon and its targets.
Most of this has been said a lot, but I like the photo/quote association.

He definitely doesn't want this to happen.  This shot is huge in terms of his visual meaning.  He is separate from the rest.  He is holding himself up and has a mournful stance as he watches it.  Yet he forces himself to watch it.  There have been other shots like this in movies where some truthteller, some person who knows better but can't stop some destruction forces themselves to watch it, like the moment has to be respected and honored.  Ugh! I know I have seen this kind of shot before.  I just cannot remember a good specific example right now ... but I think this shot is a mix of silent horror and foreshadowing.  He doesn't approve of this and he can't stop this, but *this*, things like this are the reason he is doing whatever he is doing (I am convinced he has his own agenda ... it may be wrong-minded, but he's not in lockstep with Snoke), and perhaps he also forces himself to watch it to give him the push to keep going ... so that he might one day be in the position to stop these things.
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Post by guardienne on Mon 28 Mar - 14:26

Presumably he would have felt the deaths of all these people through the force as well.
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Post by Armadeus on Mon 28 Mar - 14:59

Why do I think Kylo will/should be redeemed? Because I watched The Force Awakens and I noticed a few things.

KYLO REN: Your son is gone. He was weak and foolish, like his father. So I destroyed him.

Sorry, but hearing the way that line is delivered, I don't think Ren believes that; there isn't an ounce of confidence in it. He sounds like he's trying to convince himself as much as he's trying to convince Han.

KYLO REN: Han Solo. I've been waiting for this day for a long time.

I swear you can hear his voice tremble on the word 'time'.

REY: You're a monster!

Rey sounds so certain about that. Remember: Act II of a three act story is where the protagonist's worldview gets turned on its head.

Also, seeing as how many people like to think the Starkiller base is a metaphor for Kylo, I noticed this interesting bit of dialogue between the X-Wing pilots.

JESS TESTOR: What do we do? It isn't working!

PILOT: There's a brand new hole in that oscillator. Looks like our friends got in.

POE: Hit the target hard, give it everything you got!


I can't help, but think this exchange might be a bit of foreshadowing. Maybe the 'brand new hole' is Kylo's killing of Han Solo.
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Post by FrolickingFizzgig on Mon 28 Mar - 19:31

@Armadeus wrote:Why do I think Kylo will/should be redeemed? Because I watched The Force Awakens and I noticed a few things.

KYLO REN: Your son is gone. He was weak and foolish, like his father. So I destroyed him.

Sorry, but hearing the way that line is delivered, I don't think Ren believes that; there isn't an ounce of confidence in it. He sounds like he's trying to convince himself as much as he's trying to convince Han.

KYLO REN: Han Solo. I've been waiting for this day for a long time.

I swear you can hear his voice tremble on the word 'time'.

REY: You're a monster!

Rey sounds so certain about that. Remember: Act II of a three act story is where the protagonist's worldview gets turned on its head.

Also, seeing as how many people like to think the Starkiller base is a metaphor for Kylo, I noticed this interesting bit of dialogue between the X-Wing pilots.

JESS TESTOR: What do we do? It isn't working!

PILOT: There's a brand new hole in that oscillator. Looks like our friends got in.

POE: Hit the target hard, give it everything you got!


I can't help, but think this exchange might be a bit of foreshadowing. Maybe the 'brand new hole' is Kylo's killing of Han Solo.
When I first saw this movie I was irritated by the fact that Ren and Rey's epic battle gets cut with Poe/pilots destroying the oscillator, but I 100% understand it now and it's beautiful. Starkiller Base in itself is a weapon that "uses the light of the sun". Destroying the oscillator (where the father and son fell) frees the light of the sun. Apply that logic to freeing the light of the "son" and the picture really comes into focus.

The first time Starkiller Base is used we see Ren watching the blast fly past his window. The "light" is being used as a "weapon". Meanwhile, where is Ren headed on Snoke's orders at that exact moment? To retrieve the Droid, to be used as a weapon.

At this moment, we hear the first rendition of a theme by John Williams (aptly titled "The Starkiller"):


We hear this song once more when Ren stabs Han in "Torn Apart":


And one more time, in "Farewell and the Trip" RIGHT BEFORE Rey hugs Leia:

Go to: 1:36


That tells me these three scenes are meant to be symbolically connected. The Starkiller's light being manipulated as a weapon to destroy the Hosnian System --> Ren's light being manipulated as a weapon to kill his father --> Rey hugging Leia after the "sun" has been "reborn".


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Post by vaderito on Mon 28 Mar - 20:02

@SoloSideCousin wrote:
@jakkusun wrote:I don't even know what to make of this quote and photo pairing I saw on tumblr:
ARCHIVE: Can Kylo Be Redeemed? - 1 - Page 2 Tumblr_o4nvai6Q4h1ryvuwbo2_500
”When the weapons engineers fired the device, a breach was induced in the containment field. At incredible velocity and accelerating exponentially, the concentrated volume of quintessence escaped, transforming as it did so into a state known as phantom energy and following the artificial line of egress that had been provided. Assuming that the rotation and inclination of the planet had been taken into account, the released blast of concentrated phantom energy would travel along a perfectly linear path, punching a small Big Rip through hyperspace itself until it left the galaxy — or encountered something in its path that was of sufficient mass to intercept it.”

It just made me think a lot....
This is such an interesting and mysterious shot. The thing is The Kylo Ren can't and doesn't "intercept" or stop Starkiller Base, but maybe he wants to. He probably spent a lot of his childhood on these Republic planets. And now he is visually being shot by the weapon along with them....but the the camera goes to his face and he is watching from the sidelines, unable to do anything, unable to truly come between the weapon and its targets.
Most of this has been said a lot, but I like the photo/quote association.

He definitely doesn't want this to happen.  This shot is huge in terms of his visual meaning.  He is separate from the rest.  He is holding himself up and has a mournful stance as he watches it.  Yet he forces himself to watch it.  There have been other shots like this in movies where some truthteller, some person who knows better but can't stop some destruction forces themselves to watch it, like the moment has to be respected and honored.  Ugh! I know I have seen this kind of shot before.  I just cannot remember a good specific example right now ... but I think this shot is a mix of silent horror and foreshadowing.  He doesn't approve of this and he can't stop this, but *this*, things like this are the reason he is doing whatever he is doing (I am convinced he has his own agenda ... it may be wrong-minded, but he's not in lockstep with Snoke), and perhaps he also forces himself to watch it to give him the push to keep going ... so that he might one day be in the position to stop these things.

Mournful stance similar to (legal image from our library of legal images):

ARCHIVE: Can Kylo Be Redeemed? - 1 - Page 2 Tumblr_o4k26gaQp71ryvuwbo1_400

he's standing more straight in the Weapon scene (considering he isn't alone but on the bridge) but the gist is the same, I think?
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Post by FrolickingFizzgig on Mon 28 Mar - 20:49

@vaderito wrote:
@SoloSideCousin wrote:
@jakkusun wrote:I don't even know what to make of this quote and photo pairing I saw on tumblr:
ARCHIVE: Can Kylo Be Redeemed? - 1 - Page 2 Tumblr_o4nvai6Q4h1ryvuwbo2_500
”When the weapons engineers fired the device, a breach was induced in the containment field. At incredible velocity and accelerating exponentially, the concentrated volume of quintessence escaped, transforming as it did so into a state known as phantom energy and following the artificial line of egress that had been provided. Assuming that the rotation and inclination of the planet had been taken into account, the released blast of concentrated phantom energy would travel along a perfectly linear path, punching a small Big Rip through hyperspace itself until it left the galaxy — or encountered something in its path that was of sufficient mass to intercept it.”

It just made me think a lot....
This is such an interesting and mysterious shot. The thing is The Kylo Ren can't and doesn't "intercept" or stop Starkiller Base, but maybe he wants to. He probably spent a lot of his childhood on these Republic planets. And now he is visually being shot by the weapon along with them....but the the camera goes to his face and he is watching from the sidelines, unable to do anything, unable to truly come between the weapon and its targets.
Most of this has been said a lot, but I like the photo/quote association.

He definitely doesn't want this to happen.  This shot is huge in terms of his visual meaning.  He is separate from the rest.  He is holding himself up and has a mournful stance as he watches it.  Yet he forces himself to watch it.  There have been other shots like this in movies where some truthteller, some person who knows better but can't stop some destruction forces themselves to watch it, like the moment has to be respected and honored.  Ugh! I know I have seen this kind of shot before.  I just cannot remember a good specific example right now ... but I think this shot is a mix of silent horror and foreshadowing.  He doesn't approve of this and he can't stop this, but *this*, things like this are the reason he is doing whatever he is doing (I am convinced he has his own agenda ... it may be wrong-minded, but he's not in lockstep with Snoke), and perhaps he also forces himself to watch it to give him the push to keep going ... so that he might one day be in the position to stop these things.

Mournful stance similar to (legal image from our library of legal images):

ARCHIVE: Can Kylo Be Redeemed? - 1 - Page 2 Tumblr_o4k26gaQp71ryvuwbo1_400

he's standing more straight in the Weapon scene (considering he isn't alone but on the bridge) but the gist is the same, I think?
Also this: https://i.imgur.com/LRqyuku.png

This is the first time they've both entered the cockpit in years, and they do the same thing (place their hands on both chairs).
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Post by vaderito on Mon 28 Mar - 21:00

Like father like son. OK, I'm now convinced that Kylo knows how to fly MF and that he'll fly it sometime in the movies.
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Post by Rimfaxe96 on Mon 28 Mar - 21:11

Next to all the quotes Armadeus mentioned, what really stood out to me was "It's too late". He feels like he's long passed the point of no return. But if there was a way to convince him otherwise...

@vaderito wrote:Like father like son. OK, I'm now convinced that Kylo knows how to fly MF and that he'll fly it sometime in the movies.

Pablo Hidalgo basically confirmed a flight scene with him via Twitter. I can't wait...! Razz
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Post by vaderito on Mon 28 Mar - 21:19



Speaking of point of no return...Ring Composition.
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Post by Rimfaxe96 on Mon 28 Mar - 21:28

And if he still refuses - just let Rey pull a Bastila and mind-wipe him. Desperate times call for desperate measures! Shocked
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Post by ISeeAnIsland on Mon 28 Mar - 22:09

@Rimfaxe96 wrote:Next to all the quotes Armadeus mentioned, what really stood out to me was "It's too late". He feels like he's long passed the point of no return. But if there was a way to convince him otherwise...

@vaderito wrote:Like father like son. OK, I'm now convinced that Kylo knows how to fly MF and that he'll fly it sometime in the movies.

Pablo Hidalgo basically confirmed a flight scene with him via Twitter. I can't wait...! Razz

Will I look too pathetic if I jump up in my seat and yell "SQUEEEEEEEE!" if/when this happens?
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Post by vaderito on Mon 28 Mar - 22:26

No cause whole cinema will do that if they use it as his heroic moment, like, something that nobody expected.
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Post by Darth Dementor on Mon 28 Mar - 22:41

@vaderito wrote:No cause whole cinema will do that if they use it as his heroic moment, like, something that nobody expected.


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Post by AnneNeville on Mon 28 Mar - 22:42

@Armadeus wrote:
JESS TESTOR: What do we do? It isn't working!

PILOT: There's a brand new hole in that oscillator. Looks like our friends got in.

POE: Hit the target hard, give it everything you got!


I can't help, but think this exchange might be a bit of foreshadowing. Maybe the 'brand new hole' is Kylo's killing of Han Solo.

Could it also be the "hole" in Kylo's armor that Rey has somehow created?
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Post by AnneNeville on Mon 28 Mar - 22:47

@FrolickingFizzgig wrote:
@vaderito wrote:
@SoloSideCousin wrote:
@jakkusun wrote:I don't even know what to make of this quote and photo pairing I saw on tumblr:
ARCHIVE: Can Kylo Be Redeemed? - 1 - Page 2 Tumblr_o4nvai6Q4h1ryvuwbo2_500
”When the weapons engineers fired the device, a breach was induced in the containment field. At incredible velocity and accelerating exponentially, the concentrated volume of quintessence escaped, transforming as it did so into a state known as phantom energy and following the artificial line of egress that had been provided. Assuming that the rotation and inclination of the planet had been taken into account, the released blast of concentrated phantom energy would travel along a perfectly linear path, punching a small Big Rip through hyperspace itself until it left the galaxy — or encountered something in its path that was of sufficient mass to intercept it.”

It just made me think a lot....
This is such an interesting and mysterious shot. The thing is The Kylo Ren can't and doesn't "intercept" or stop Starkiller Base, but maybe he wants to. He probably spent a lot of his childhood on these Republic planets. And now he is visually being shot by the weapon along with them....but the the camera goes to his face and he is watching from the sidelines, unable to do anything, unable to truly come between the weapon and its targets.
Most of this has been said a lot, but I like the photo/quote association.

He definitely doesn't want this to happen.  This shot is huge in terms of his visual meaning.  He is separate from the rest.  He is holding himself up and has a mournful stance as he watches it.  Yet he forces himself to watch it.  There have been other shots like this in movies where some truthteller, some person who knows better but can't stop some destruction forces themselves to watch it, like the moment has to be respected and honored.  Ugh! I know I have seen this kind of shot before.  I just cannot remember a good specific example right now ... but I think this shot is a mix of silent horror and foreshadowing.  He doesn't approve of this and he can't stop this, but *this*, things like this are the reason he is doing whatever he is doing (I am convinced he has his own agenda ... it may be wrong-minded, but he's not in lockstep with Snoke), and perhaps he also forces himself to watch it to give him the push to keep going ... so that he might one day be in the position to stop these things.

Mournful stance similar to (legal image from our library of legal images):

ARCHIVE: Can Kylo Be Redeemed? - 1 - Page 2 Tumblr_o4k26gaQp71ryvuwbo1_400

he's standing more straight in the Weapon scene (considering he isn't alone but on the bridge) but the gist is the same, I think?
Also this: https://i.imgur.com/LRqyuku.png

This is the first time they've both entered the cockpit in years, and they do the same thing (place their hands on both chairs).

Both images of Kylo are also have the camera tracking/zooming in on him. I think shots of that sort indicate that his experience of that moment is important, not just the moment itself.
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Post by vaderito on Mon 28 Mar - 22:47

@Darth Dementor wrote:
@vaderito wrote:No cause whole cinema will do that if they use it as his heroic moment, like, something that nobody expected.


Twisted Evil Ring Composition. You can't do homage to this moment with any other character but Ben. My headcanon - Rey flies X Wing like Luke, Ben unexpectedly come to her aid.

@AnneNeville

Could it also be the "hole" in Kylo's armor that Rey has somehow created?

Like in this song that was used for a Reylo vid:

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Post by Kessel on Mon 28 Mar - 23:54

Wow, nice catch on those two comparison photos of Kylo and Han both with their hands on the MF cockpit seats...so emotional and such a stab in the heart. Kylo really needs to live and make it up to Han and himself by continuing Han's legacy....

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Post by Guest on Tue 29 Mar - 0:28

@MeadowofAshes wrote:@YoloKylo I've said if before, I'll say it again: it's a sexist double standard. Hero/villainess pairings are totally a thing in comics and no one cares. But suggest a heroine should go for the bad guy and suddenly legions of dudebros and feminazis unite to slaughter your firstborn.

This for me is the biggest reason why I want Reylo to be canon. It never fails to infuriate me when [redacted] say that the "strong" heroine can't be attracted to/fall in love with/redeem the villain because it's somehow abusive and makes a woman weak? What!? I personally think, as a woman, that it's more "empowering" for a flawed heroine to redeem a villain the same way a hero redeems a villainess (like Luke and Mara for example), instead of being a sexless, non-feminine, butt-kicking heroine with no flaws that media and society prefers today. Reylo happening will knock the idea that a heroine can't be anything other what I've described above out of the water.

Also, another sexist double standard I despise is F/M heroine/villain pairings can't be a thing, but have a M/M hero/villain pairing and the [redacted] will go absolutely gaga and drool over it, no matter how abusive it is. They'll even go as far as to hate any female character that poses the slightest threat to an M/M pairing - just look at Hannibal! The fangirls went absolutely crazy for the Will/Hannibal pairing, even though Hannibal did horrendous things to Will, such as manipulating him into thinking he was going insane, framed him for murder and even tried turning him into a murderer as well. These same fangirls hate on Alana and (one of my personal, favourite heroines of all time) Clarice Starling, for having a relationship with Hannibal - they even go as far as to call the relationship between Clarice and Hannibal abusive and while that is true in some retrospect, it's no where near abusive as Will/Hannibal. (No offense to anyone who likes this show or pairing, this is just my personal opinion).

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Post by jakkusun on Tue 29 Mar - 0:59

Things just don't match up. Here are all the references to strength in the script:
"KYLO REN
I know you've seen the map. It's in there... and now you'll give it to me. Don't be afraid. I feel it too.
Where her strength comes from, she doesn't know, but:
REY
I'm not giving you anything.
KYLO REN
We'll see.
He peers into her eyes intensely. She meets his gaze -- DESPITE THE PAIN SHE IS STRONG. "

"He looks less certain by the moment as Rey seems to GROW IN STRENGTH."

"... You... you're afraid... that you
will never be as strong as... Darth
Vader!"

“KYLO REN She's strong with the Force, untrained but, stronger than she knows.”
"SLOW PUSH IN ON REY, shackled, mind still racing over what's happened between her and Kylo Ren. She is flooded with emotions, feeling her potential, her strength, that in this moment of being restrained, perhaps anything is possible."
“He calls out, strongly:
HAN
Ben!”

"KYLO REN
I know what I have to do, but I don't know if I have the strength to do it. Will you help me?"


"She seems to be, impossibly, STRONGER THAN HE IS for half a dozen blows -- until he FINDS HIS STRENGTH and FIGHTS BACK -- MOVING FORWARD and PUSHING REY BACK, into the forest."


The references in the Snoke scenes of the novel:
“Ren straightened. ‘It is your teachings that make me strong, Supreme Leader.’

Snoke demurred. ‘It is far more than that. It is where you are from. What you are made of. The dark side—and the light. The finest sculptor cannot fashion a masterpiece from poor materials. He must have something pure, something strong, something unbreakable, with which to work. I have—you.’ He paused, reminiscing.

‘Kylo Ren, I watched the Galatic Empire rise, and then fall. The gullible prattle on about the triumph of truth and justice, of individualism and free will. As if such things were solid and real instead of simple subjective judgements. The historians have it all wrong. It was neither poor strategy nor arrogance that brought down the Empire. You know too well what did.’
Ren nodded once. ‘Sentiment.’

‘Yes. Such a simple thing. Such a foolish error of judgment. A momentary lapse in an otherwise exemplary life. Had Lord Vader no succumbed to emotion at the crucial moment—had the father killed the son—the Empire would have prevailed. And there would be no threat of Skywalker’s return today.’”

“’I perceive the problem,’ Snoke intoned. ’It isn’t her strength that is making you fail. It’s your weakness.’”

So the parts that don't make sense are the underlined lines. Here are my thoughts:
Snoke tells Kylo Ren that compassion is weakness. He tells him that Darth Vader failed because he succumbed to emotion, essentially, that he was weak in his final moment. Kylo Ren claims that Snoke's teachings make him strong. Snoke says being unbreakable is strong. --This is the dark side definition of strength shown: no emotion or compassion.

Almost every time strength is mentioned in the script, it is related to compassion or Rey. Right after Kylo Ren says "Don't be afraid, I feel it, too,"  Rey feels stronger. Rey is then described as strong from then on. No one else is ever called strong. So light side=true strength. Or even, the compassion/connection of a potential Force Bond is strength. Han calls out "strongly" to Ben, which also shows compassion/love.

Kylo is associated with strength twice and it doesn't make sense. He is afraid he will never be as strong as Darth Vader, when it was established, in the novel, that Darth Vader was weak in the "crucial moment? Then, Kylo gets to his own "crucial moment" and says, "I know what I have to do, but I don't know if I have the strength to do it. Will you help me?" We assume this means killing Han, but we just learned he was afraid of not being as strong as Darth Vader, which doesn't make sense if he agrees with Snoke that Darth Vader messed up the crucial moment. Shouldn't Rey have seen in his mind that he is afraid he will never be stronger than Darth Vader? It's just one word but...yeah.

Anyway, does Snoke even know Kylo Ren idolizes Vader and talks to his mask? Might Snoke disapprove? Does Kylo Ren really agree with Snoke? What Rey read in his mind, which he was so shocked to hear her say out loud, seems to suggest Kylo Ren doesn't see Vader as weak, which is what Snoke essentially sees him as, in his final moment. This is probably a technicality and over-analysis but the different ways strength is defined and the times/places it is brought up are interesting. Strength is very much related to compassion, it appears. I wonder which definition of strength Kylo Ren really believes. He says that Ben Solo was "weak and foolish," but does he believe that? Rey's mind-reading could suggest otherwise.

Okay, I know these lines have been analyzed to death, but they just bother me so much and I thought it would be fun to post all the "strength" references together in one post.
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Post by vaderito on Tue 29 Mar - 1:01

AppleCrumble122 wrote:
@MeadowofAshes wrote:@YoloKylo I've said if before, I'll say it again: it's a sexist double standard. Hero/villainess pairings are totally a thing in comics and no one cares. But suggest a heroine should go for the bad guy and suddenly legions of dudebros and feminazis unite to slaughter your firstborn.

This for me is the biggest reason why I want Reylo to be canon. It never fails to infuriate me when [redacted] say that the "strong" heroine can't be attracted to/fall in love with/redeem the villain because it's somehow abusive and makes a woman weak? What!? I personally think, as a woman, that it's more "empowering" for a flawed heroine to redeem a villain the same way a hero redeems a villainess (like Luke and Mara for example), instead of being a sexless, non-feminine, butt-kicking heroine with no flaws that media and society prefers today. Reylo happening will knock the idea that a heroine can't be anything other what I've described above out of the water.

Also, another sexist double standard I despise is F/M heroine/villain pairings can't be a thing, but have a M/M hero/villain pairing and the [redacted] will go absolutely gaga and drool over it, no matter how abusive it is. They'll even go as far as to hate any female character that poses the slightest threat to an M/M pairing - just look at Hannibal! The fangirls went absolutely crazy for the Will/Hannibal pairing, even though Hannibal did horrendous things to Will, such as manipulating him into thinking he was going insane, framed him for murder and even tried turning him into a murderer as well. These same fangirls hate on Alana and (one of my personal, favourite heroines of all time) Clarice Starling, for having a relationship with Hannibal - they even go as far as to call the relationship between Clarice and Hannibal abusive and while that is true in some retrospect, it's no where near abusive as Will/Hannibal. (No offense to anyone who likes this show or pairing, this is just my personal opinion).

All of this! There's some twisted double standard which is think is because Heroine/Villain doesn't check [redacted] boxes. Hero/Villainess is approved because villainess = girl has fun being bad, body count = strong female character (you'll notice that strong female characters are exclusively judged by ability to unleash physical harm or how many people they kill, not by mental strength). Hero/Villain = gay, progressive OMG.
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Post by Guest on Tue 29 Mar - 1:05

@vaderito wrote:All of this! There's some twisted double standard which is think is because Heroine/Villain doesn't check [redacted] boxes. Hero/Villainess is approved because villainess = girl has fun being bad, body count = strong female character (you'll notice that strong female characters are exclusively judged by ability to unleash physical harm or how many people they kill, not by mental strength). Hero/Villain = gay, progressive OMG.

Yep! Bang on! For all their talk about being "progressive", I've always found [redacted] to be one of the most regressive groups ever, not to mention one of the most hypocritical.

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