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Post by jakkusun on Thu 21 Jul 2016, 12:58 pm

@Macha Ren wrote:
@Slade wrote:Yeah, Adam spoke with JJ and KK at length before agreeing.  I trust Adam's judgment.  Also, Adam said in an interview recently something to the effect of "I don't know [or am not sure] what happens [to Kylo].  He may not make it."  Given that Adam signed an NDA and that he isn't given to slips of the tongue like Daisy has made, I can infer from his comment that Kylo *will* make it.  I think the comment is intentional misdirection.  If Kylo really dies, then Adam's comment is an "oopsie" slip/NDA violation, arguably.  Adam is too careful for that.
@Slade

Let Adam play coy and pretend he doesn't know the storyline Wink He'll keep his mouth shut better than Carrie ever will.

I have a sneaking suspicion there's a very small circle that includes Adam that knows Kylo's full story arc, including the entire story of the fall and interactions with Snoke. Adam is so very much a method actor. Knowing the Kylo's secrets would very much factor into the subtle nuances of Kylo's actions, body language and motivations. Where Kylo has been and come from was already in play with how he came to life in TFA. Couple that with Adam's own history as a child of divorce, I think he had a treasure drove of information to work with.

And he is good at keeping secrets. Didn't he keep his casting a secret from his wife for a couple of years?
@Macha Ren
Yeah I think JJ was the one who ended up telling Joanne because JJ didn't even know Adam hadn't told her yet. He had assumed he already had by that point, but he hadn't. lol And Joanne went upspoiled into the theaters, too, I think
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Post by Macha Ren on Thu 21 Jul 2016, 1:28 pm

@jakkusun wrote:
@Macha Ren wrote:
@Slade wrote:Yeah, Adam spoke with JJ and KK at length before agreeing.  I trust Adam's judgment.  Also, Adam said in an interview recently something to the effect of "I don't know [or am not sure] what happens [to Kylo].  He may not make it."  Given that Adam signed an NDA and that he isn't given to slips of the tongue like Daisy has made, I can infer from his comment that Kylo *will* make it.  I think the comment is intentional misdirection.  If Kylo really dies, then Adam's comment is an "oopsie" slip/NDA violation, arguably.  Adam is too careful for that.
@Slade

Let Adam play coy and pretend he doesn't know the storyline Wink He'll keep his mouth shut better than Carrie ever will.

I have a sneaking suspicion there's a very small circle that includes Adam that knows Kylo's full story arc, including the entire story of the fall and interactions with Snoke. Adam is so very much a method actor. Knowing the Kylo's secrets would very much factor into the subtle nuances of Kylo's actions, body language and motivations. Where Kylo has been and come from was already in play with how he came to life in TFA. Couple that with Adam's own history as a child of divorce, I think he had a treasure drove of information to work with.

And he is good at keeping secrets. Didn't he keep his casting a secret from his wife for a couple of years?
@Macha Ren
Yeah I think JJ was the one who ended up telling Joanne because JJ didn't even know Adam hadn't told her yet. He had assumed he already had by that point, but he hadn't. lol And Joanne went upspoiled into the theaters, too, I think
@jakkusun

Now that is a great story. Talk about being completely concrete in your thinking.

JJ: "Tell no one."

AD: "Hokay,fine."

*years pass*

JJ: "Hey, Joanne, is Adam excited to start filming SW?"

JT: "Wait, what?"

AD: "I have no idea what you're talking about."

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Post by SoloSideCousin on Thu 21 Jul 2016, 7:31 pm

@Macha Ren wrote:
@jakkusun wrote:
@Macha Ren wrote:
@Slade wrote:Yeah, Adam spoke with JJ and KK at length before agreeing.  I trust Adam's judgment.  Also, Adam said in an interview recently something to the effect of "I don't know [or am not sure] what happens [to Kylo].  He may not make it."  Given that Adam signed an NDA and that he isn't given to slips of the tongue like Daisy has made, I can infer from his comment that Kylo *will* make it.  I think the comment is intentional misdirection.  If Kylo really dies, then Adam's comment is an "oopsie" slip/NDA violation, arguably.  Adam is too careful for that.
@Slade

Let Adam play coy and pretend he doesn't know the storyline Wink He'll keep his mouth shut better than Carrie ever will.

I have a sneaking suspicion there's a very small circle that includes Adam that knows Kylo's full story arc, including the entire story of the fall and interactions with Snoke. Adam is so very much a method actor. Knowing the Kylo's secrets would very much factor into the subtle nuances of Kylo's actions, body language and motivations. Where Kylo has been and come from was already in play with how he came to life in TFA. Couple that with Adam's own history as a child of divorce, I think he had a treasure drove of information to work with.

And he is good at keeping secrets. Didn't he keep his casting a secret from his wife for a couple of years?
@Macha Ren
Yeah I think JJ was the one who ended up telling Joanne because JJ didn't even know Adam hadn't told her yet. He had assumed he already had by that point, but he hadn't. lol And Joanne went upspoiled into the theaters, too, I think
@jakkusun

Now that is a great story. Talk about being completely concrete in your thinking.

JJ: "Tell no one."

AD: "Hokay,fine."

*years pass*

JJ: "Hey, Joanne, is Adam excited to start filming SW?"

JT: "Wait, what?"

AD: "I have no idea what you're talking about."

@Macha Ren

I think his wife is a pretty big advisor to him. Where did you hear that he didn't tell her that he was cast?

However, I know that he didn't tell her the storyline for 3 years. He said that on I think Seth Meyers. So she did walk into that premiere not knowing anything.

And I definitely think he knows the whole story. In fact, I think I read somewhere that he admits he knows everything.
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Post by jakkusun on Thu 21 Jul 2016, 8:40 pm

@SoloSideCousin wrote:
@Macha Ren wrote:
@jakkusun wrote:
@Macha Ren wrote:
@Slade wrote:Yeah, Adam spoke with JJ and KK at length before agreeing.  I trust Adam's judgment.  Also, Adam said in an interview recently something to the effect of "I don't know [or am not sure] what happens [to Kylo].  He may not make it."  Given that Adam signed an NDA and that he isn't given to slips of the tongue like Daisy has made, I can infer from his comment that Kylo *will* make it.  I think the comment is intentional misdirection.  If Kylo really dies, then Adam's comment is an "oopsie" slip/NDA violation, arguably.  Adam is too careful for that.
@Slade

Let Adam play coy and pretend he doesn't know the storyline Wink He'll keep his mouth shut better than Carrie ever will.

I have a sneaking suspicion there's a very small circle that includes Adam that knows Kylo's full story arc, including the entire story of the fall and interactions with Snoke. Adam is so very much a method actor. Knowing the Kylo's secrets would very much factor into the subtle nuances of Kylo's actions, body language and motivations. Where Kylo has been and come from was already in play with how he came to life in TFA. Couple that with Adam's own history as a child of divorce, I think he had a treasure drove of information to work with.

And he is good at keeping secrets. Didn't he keep his casting a secret from his wife for a couple of years?
@Macha Ren
Yeah I think JJ was the one who ended up telling Joanne because JJ didn't even know Adam hadn't told her yet. He had assumed he already had by that point, but he hadn't. lol And Joanne went upspoiled into the theaters, too, I think
@jakkusun

Now that is a great story. Talk about being completely concrete in your thinking.

JJ: "Tell no one."

AD: "Hokay,fine."

*years pass*

JJ: "Hey, Joanne, is Adam excited to start filming SW?"

JT: "Wait, what?"

AD: "I have no idea what you're talking about."

@Macha Ren

I think his wife is a pretty big advisor to him. Where did you hear that he didn't tell her that he was cast?

However, I know that he didn't tell her the storyline for 3 years. He said that on I think Seth Meyers. So she did walk into that premiere not knowing anything.

And I definitely think he knows the whole story. In fact, I think I read somewhere that he admits he knows everything.
@SoloSideCousin


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Post by Lily Snape on Fri 22 Jul 2016, 3:35 am

bela.mesecina wrote:
@BastilaBey wrote:@Macha Ren Well that's why there is still so much clinging to Rey Skywalker, even if it seems incredibly unlikely now with the Bloodline timeline just not adding up. It also seems mad that they'd create such a masterpiece of a character - you can see how KK and Kasdan are so proud of Kylo and AD's performance - only to get rid of him as soon as possible.
@BastilaBey

Maybe that's why AD wasn't sure if he wanted the role or not. If Kylo survives this trilogy that means he'll be in at least one more movie, that's 8 years
@bela.mesecina

Random thought: If we are assuming (as I am) that Rey is not a Skywalker, that Luke (and Leia, and Kylo) don't have other kids somewhere in the galaxy, then he's the last Skywalker in an epic which is supposed to be anchored by the Skywalker family. And I think dropping in additional offspring or siblings, a Mrs. Kylo Ren and the little Rens, etc., would be a big detour in Episode VIII since there's no hint like Yoda's "No, there is another" in ESB. I also don't think that they are going to wrap up the trilogy with a dark ending, literally or figuratively, although I hope Ewoks and "Yub-Nub" will,not be involved. Smile. There are just too many hints that Kylo will be redeemed.

So, this gives me hope that Kylo won't have the "redemption through sacrificial death" ending that Vader had-- that his redemption will come quite a bit earlier than the end of IX. Vader was 46-ish years old (and somewhat worse for wear for just being 46, but anyway...) and had 2 adult kids to carry on the family legacy when he turned to the Light and died. If Kylo Ren is the last Skywalker, and he follows the same path as his grandfather with death and redemption together at the end of the trilogy, then he will have to have had at least one heir (or an heir on the way) by the end of Episode IX before he turns-- which means that the Mrs. (Rey or otherwise) presumably didn't mind that he was Dark. I just don't see them going down that path-- that seems like a pretty bleak place to end the trilogy, with him dying for something that his beloved presumably opposes, and with his child being raised in the Dark side that he gave his life to defeat.

There's a "spoiler" out there, probably bogus, that he turns Light at the end of VIII. I don't remember the source, but this would make sense to me-- that or early in IX. I really hope so, anyway, because I'd love to see him grappling with it-- basically like Prince Zuko in Avatar but with patricide and much heavier war crimes.
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Post by ISeeAnIsland on Fri 22 Jul 2016, 12:20 pm

@Lily Snape wrote:
bela.mesecina wrote:
@BastilaBey wrote:@Macha Ren Well that's why there is still so much clinging to Rey Skywalker, even if it seems incredibly unlikely now with the Bloodline timeline just not adding up. It also seems mad that they'd create such a masterpiece of a character - you can see how KK and Kasdan are so proud of Kylo and AD's performance - only to get rid of him as soon as possible.
@BastilaBey

Maybe that's why AD wasn't sure if he wanted the role or not. If Kylo survives this trilogy that means he'll be in at least one more movie, that's 8 years
@bela.mesecina

Random thought: If we are assuming (as I am) that Rey is not a Skywalker, that Luke (and Leia, and Kylo) don't have other kids somewhere in the galaxy, then he's the last Skywalker in an epic which is supposed to be anchored by the Skywalker family. And I think dropping in additional offspring or siblings, a Mrs. Kylo Ren and the little Rens, etc., would be a big detour in Episode VIII since there's no hint like Yoda's "No, there is another" in ESB. I also don't think that they are going to wrap up the trilogy with a dark ending, literally or figuratively, although I hope Ewoks and "Yub-Nub" will,not be involved. Smile. There are just too many hints that Kylo will be redeemed.

So, this gives me hope that Kylo won't have the "redemption through sacrificial death" ending that Vader had-- that his redemption will come quite a bit earlier than the end of IX. Vader was 46-ish years old (and somewhat worse for wear for just being 46, but anyway...) and had 2 adult kids to carry on the family legacy when he turned to the Light and died. If Kylo Ren is the last Skywalker, and he follows the same path as his grandfather with death and redemption together at the end of the trilogy, then he will have to have had at least one heir (or an heir on the way) by the end of Episode IX before he turns-- which means that the Mrs. (Rey or otherwise) presumably didn't mind that he was Dark. I just don't see them going down that path-- that seems like a pretty bleak place to end the trilogy, with him dying for something that his beloved presumably opposes, and with his child being raised in the Dark side that he gave his life to defeat.

There's a "spoiler" out there, probably bogus, that he turns Light at the end of VIII. I don't remember the source, but this would make sense to me-- that or early in IX. I really hope so, anyway, because I'd love to see him grappling with it-- basically like Prince Zuko in Avatar but with patricide and much heavier war crimes.
@Lily Snape

There was a rumor that a Croatian website published a spoiler about the ending of VIII, which spoke in general terms that Kylo would "do something major to go against the First Order" at the end of VIII. That was only up briefly and then the website got shut down. Supposedly, it's been debunked by I don't know any details.

Honestly, I do think that if fake, that was a pretty safe prediction if you're going for a redemption angle. Unless they're going to go the Vader path, we really should be seeing signs that Kylo is at least on a path to redemption by the end of VIII. This "leak" could also theoretically align with the "Rey in a cell" ending leak, IF Rey is in a cell because Kylo has gone double agent, and he and Rey are going to try to take down the FO/Snoke themselves.
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Post by Macha Ren on Fri 22 Jul 2016, 1:14 pm

I posted this as my Birkendoc alter ego elsewhere, but my Friday attempt at a little meta will likely fall on deaf ears there with screams to set Kylo on fire or something, so I'll post it here for discussion.

For those not playing along, there is an argument elsewhere that Rey finding the capacity to extend forgiveness or mercy to Kylo Ren would cheapen her character and turn her into nothing more than a prop.


Since we've talked quite a lot about Kylo for pages on end, let's shift gears and talk about Rey in the dynamic. Her interface with the other three new characters (Finn, Poe and Kylo) appears to primarily be with Kylo from what we gather in the spoilers thus far.

I think we can all agree that she is beginning hero's journey and is starting her Jedi training with Luke. She is where Luke was after he saw Obi-Wan's ghost on Hoth. She knows who the good guys and the bad guys are. She figured that out pretty easily on her own. She does not know much about Snoke (but in the novelization he whispers in her mind to kill Kylo during the dual yet she resists his temptation to do so.) Standing in front of Luke on Ahch-To, she is no different than Luke meeting Yoda for the first time. Both have sought out the master, likely each to be taught. At this point we don't know if Luke will extend that offer, but there is a good chance he will. She has come to him to be enlightened.

In that training she will learn some basic Jedi teachings. She will likely learn the Jedi Code (source: The Phantom Menace):

There is no emotion, there is peace.
There is no ignorance, there is knowledge.
There is no passion, there is serenity.
There is no chaos, there is harmony.
There is no death, there is the Force.

But this is Luke who has looked face first into his own Dark side, so he may not be as cut and dry. There is the alternate code (aka the Grey Jedi Code) which is, surprisingly not an product of just Fanon, but rather appeared in Star Wars Kanan 7 that Depa Billaba recited, that has also been an oath previous younglings have recited:

Emotion, yet peace.
Ignorance, yet knowledge.
Passion, yet serenity.
Chaos, yet harmony.
Death, yet the Force.

Yes, Canon vs. Legends. But this is also part of the Star Wars vernacular, so it's there. Take it for what it is.

And then there is the sage teaching of Yoda where he cautioned Luke not to be hasty in his decision to act:

Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to Anger. Anger leads to Hate. Hate leads to Suffering.

These are also lessons Luke has learned first hand, and knowledge he will likely impart to Rey, things that are likely more important than lightsaber fighting forms or levitating rocks. It is about setting a moral compass as one assumes the mantel of a Jedi. With great powers come great responsibility. Luke knows what it is like to lose an apprentice to the dark side. If he chooses to teach Rey, he will not make the same mistakes.

So what does this have to do with Rey and her interface with Kylo. Moreover, what does it have to do with her ability to forgive or extend mercy to her adversary. Quite frankly, what she has learned as apprenticing with Luke will mean everything.

Jedis, are the closest things to demigods in the SW universe. They are superhuman in their abilities, and with that comes a personal code of ethics in how to heft that power.

I looked at two examples from various mythos to contrast the two scenarios of forgiveness/mercy and condemnation and how each would impact Rey as her role as the standard bearer of the light side of the Force as it pertains to Kylo Ren.

Mercy/Forgiveness:

Guan Yin, or Kuan Yin, short for Kuan-shi Yin which means "hearing the sounds (cries) of the world." In the Sanskrit tradition she is Padma Pani, symbolizing purity, peace and in the Taoist tradition she is noted for having "endless willingness and sparing no effort to help those in need." Guan Yin is the embodiment of mercy, not judgement.

Is Rey symbolically Guan Yin? In a word, no. Star Wars has its own mythos. But when looking at the Jedi principles, it favors peace and serenity. It offers mercy.

Condemnation/Punishment:

Ammit, the Devourer of the Dead, the personification of divine retribution. She does not save souls. She destroys them, consumes them and provides an afterworld of no forgiveness, one of eternal restlessness. Her name literally translates into Devourer. Like Rey, she is a desert sentient from Egyptian mythos. The condemned have already confessed, their worth has already been deemed lacking and there is nothing left to do except for Ammit to destory them.

Is Rey Ammit? Again, no.

So why bring up both deities. I did so to point out that one resembles a Jedi more than the other--offfering peace and mercy whether it is warranted or not. And one sounds like it lives somewhere on the dark side where retribution and wrath reign supreme.

Do I want Rey to be this perfect embodiment of Guan Yin? Not in the least. She isn't a goddess. She is a young woman who is still on her journey. But I would be hopeful that her lessons regarding the role and responsibilities of Jedis would include the divine power of mercy. Jedis are supposed to be above the emotional fray. Emotion yet peace.  They aren't driven by a bloodlust for retribution.

But many argue that Rey would be a prop if she were to extend mercy, that her character would be sullied for ever, that she would be a co-dependent simpering and foolish girl. To that, I counter that it would not destroy her character, but rather strengthen it where she had gained a greater understanding of what it means to be a vessel for the light side, that it would elevate her to where she can transcend anger and wrath and see beyond it. Forget the the whole "zomg, that will lead to Reylo" nonsense.

Forgiveness can be on a plane of its own. It doesn't have to be driven by physical/sexual attraction like some want to minimize the motivations for forgiveness. Quite frankly, that cheapens forgiveness if you ask me. Forgiveness and mercy aren't things that are earned. they are gifts to be received.

Likewise, wrath and retribution come from within. Do not necessarily mistake them with justice. There is a definite difference.

And one thing the Star Wars universe has never been about is the morals of wrath and retribution.

Star Wars has been about hope and optimism. It has been since its inception. A triology ending with yet another Skywalker falling to the dark, executed or worse--working on redemption and atonement only to be cast out goes countercurrent to what the franchise is about.

Rey as a Jedi has a more powerful gift in her forgiveness than the forgiveness a friend, colleague or acquaintance has to offer. By doing so as a Jedi, she would be proving that the light triumphs over dark, that mercy triumphs over the lust for blood, and that being a Jedi is something that is worth striving for.
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Post by Macha Ren on Fri 22 Jul 2016, 2:37 pm

Also, here is the best example of mortal enemies finding empathy and compassion where logic says there should not be. In this scene Spike is headed to Buffy's with a shot gun for the sole purpose of blowing off her head:

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Post by Guest on Fri 22 Jul 2016, 4:35 pm

@Lily Snape wrote:There's a "spoiler" out there, probably bogus, that he turns Light at the end of VIII.  I don't remember the source, but this would make sense to me-- that or early in IX.  I really hope so, anyway, because I'd love to see him grappling with it-- basically like Prince Zuko in Avatar but with patricide and much heavier war crimes.
@Lily Snape

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lol I cannot even find the words to describe how much I really want that to happen. Very Happy

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Post by ZioRen on Fri 22 Jul 2016, 4:38 pm

What on earth has happened that fans are now viewing compassion and forgiveness as weaknesses or things that cheapen a character? And how is it that they're attempting to apply that logic to STAR WARS: the incredibly iconic story of compassion and forgiveness cutting through the darkness? That's the entire major theme! Was Luke a prop to them?

I honestly don't get it. They'd prefer Rey to just tear through people and bathe in the blood of her enemies? How boring of a story is that! Do they really dislike Kylo Ren so much that they'd be happy with that kind of narrative?


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Post by vaderito on Fri 22 Jul 2016, 4:39 pm

@Macha Ren wrote:Also, here is the best example of mortal enemies finding empathy and compassion where logic says there should not be. In this scene Spike is headed to Buffy's with a shot gun for the sole purpose of blowing off her head:

@Macha Ren

That one's iconic! H-beating H-beating H-beating

your meta is amazing! cheers cheers cheers cheers

I just want to comment on this a lit:

There is no emotion, there is peace.
There is no ignorance, there is knowledge.
There is no passion, there is serenity. Poor Luke, 2 young people = passion Something's gotta change in that Jedi chant
There is no chaos, there is harmony.
There is no death, there is the Force.

@ZioRen

What on earth has happened that fans are now viewing compassion and forgiveness as weaknesses or things that cheapen a character?

Shipper wars, that's what happened. They know where this is going and are scared cause they''' have to

ARCHIVE: Can Kylo Be Redeemed? - 1 - Page 37 Tumblr_inline_mhis0waQDy1qz4rgp

No wonder this no forgiveness discussion took place where certain topic is forbidden. Fear is a mind killer. fear is a little-death that bring total obliteration. In this case, fear of our ship brings total obliteration of reason and understanding what SW is all about, always have been and always will be.
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Post by Lily Snape on Fri 22 Jul 2016, 10:38 pm

@ZioRen wrote:What on earth has happened that fans are now viewing compassion and forgiveness as weaknesses or things that cheapen a character? And how is it that they're attempting to apply that logic to STAR WARS: the incredibly iconic story of compassion and forgiveness cutting through the darkness? That's the entire major theme! Was Luke a prop to them?

I honestly don't get it. They'd prefer Rey to just tear through people and bathe in the blood of her enemies? How boring of a story is that! Do they really dislike Kylo Ren so much that they'd be happy with that kind of narrative?
@ZioRen

I get the impression that the people who respond like this either wanted a bad*** Kylo as Vader 2.0 and are mad that they didn't get it, or want a bad*** take-no-prisoners Rey who teaches Kylo a lesson for being what they see as this dominant, arrogant stereotype of toxic masculinity.  The first group can't handle a villain with any emotions other than anger and with anything like doubt-- Kylo is the Hamlet of villains, and these guys (and to quote Stephen Colbert, I'm assuming they're guys) want something more one-dimensional.  I think the latter group goes the other way-- they don't see the sadness or the doubt, just the young woman strapped to a chair, "You know I can take whatever I want," etc.  The first group sees him as a wimp, the second group sees him as an entitled predator and representative of the patriarchy or something like that, and they both want to see him taken down.  Although I'm guessing the first group wants Poe to take him down, not Rey-- because Poe is A) male, and B) "whiter" than Finn.  Yeah, I'm jumping to all sorts of conclusions.  I have read the comments section on Star Wars articles-- and stuff in threads on the Redacted-- too many times.


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Post by Lily Snape on Fri 22 Jul 2016, 11:04 pm

@ISeeAnIsland wrote:
@Lily Snape wrote:
bela.mesecina wrote:
@BastilaBey wrote:@Macha Ren Well that's why there is still so much clinging to Rey Skywalker, even if it seems incredibly unlikely now with the Bloodline timeline just not adding up. It also seems mad that they'd create such a masterpiece of a character - you can see how KK and Kasdan are so proud of Kylo and AD's performance - only to get rid of him as soon as possible.
@BastilaBey

Maybe that's why AD wasn't sure if he wanted the role or not. If Kylo survives this trilogy that means he'll be in at least one more movie, that's 8 years
@bela.mesecina

Random thought: If we are assuming (as I am) that Rey is not a Skywalker, that Luke (and Leia, and Kylo) don't have other kids somewhere in the galaxy, then he's the last Skywalker in an epic which is supposed to be anchored by the Skywalker family. And I think dropping in additional offspring or siblings, a Mrs. Kylo Ren and the little Rens, etc., would be a big detour in Episode VIII since there's no hint like Yoda's "No, there is another" in ESB. I also don't think that they are going to wrap up the trilogy with a dark ending, literally or figuratively, although I hope Ewoks and "Yub-Nub" will,not be involved. Smile. There are just too many hints that Kylo will be redeemed.

So, this gives me hope that Kylo won't have the "redemption through sacrificial death" ending that Vader had-- that his redemption will come quite a bit earlier than the end of IX. Vader was 46-ish years old (and somewhat worse for wear for just being 46, but anyway...) and had 2 adult kids to carry on the family legacy when he turned to the Light and died. If Kylo Ren is the last Skywalker, and he follows the same path as his grandfather with death and redemption together at the end of the trilogy, then he will have to have had at least one heir (or an heir on the way) by the end of Episode IX before he turns-- which means that the Mrs. (Rey or otherwise) presumably didn't mind that he was Dark. I just don't see them going down that path-- that seems like a pretty bleak place to end the trilogy, with him dying for something that his beloved presumably opposes, and with his child being raised in the Dark side that he gave his life to defeat.

There's a "spoiler" out there, probably bogus, that he turns Light at the end of VIII. I don't remember the source, but this would make sense to me-- that or early in IX. I really hope so, anyway, because I'd love to see him grappling with it-- basically like Prince Zuko in Avatar but with patricide and much heavier war crimes.
@Lily Snape

There was a rumor that a Croatian website published a spoiler about the ending of VIII, which spoke in general terms that Kylo would "do something major to go against the First Order" at the end of VIII. That was only up briefly and then the website got shut down. Supposedly, it's been debunked by I don't know any details.

Honestly, I do think that if fake, that was a pretty safe prediction if you're going for a redemption angle. Unless they're going to go the Vader path, we really should be seeing signs that Kylo is at least on a path to redemption by the end of VIII. This "leak" could also theoretically align with the "Rey in a cell" ending leak, IF Rey is in a cell because Kylo has gone double agent, and he and Rey are going to try to take down the FO/Snoke themselves.
@ISeeAnIsland

No matter what happens, romance or otherwise, their destinies are so clearly intertwined that they need some sort of time together just for reasons of plot and character development, and "Rey in a cell" could provide that if Kylo is her captor. (Or cellmate. I'm thinking of the Leia-Han-Chewie-C3PO cell on Bespin, obviously. A girl can dream.). But then, that kind of time together could be provided by Ach-To. So many possibilities. I'd even just love to see them team up by the end of VIII-- for them to be on the same side, even if no one else believes in him. I think there has to be movement in that direction by the end of VIII, basically-- stuffing it in to IX will be too close to the end, and too Vader. OK, just rambling. Smile
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Post by Kessel on Fri 22 Jul 2016, 11:19 pm

@vaderito wrote:


@ZioRen

What on earth has happened that fans are now viewing compassion and forgiveness as weaknesses or things that cheapen a character?

Shipper wars, that's what happened. They know where this is going and are scared cause they''' have to

ARCHIVE: Can Kylo Be Redeemed? - 1 - Page 37 Tumblr_inline_mhis0waQDy1qz4rgp

No wonder this no forgiveness discussion took place where certain topic is forbidden. Fear is a mind killer. fear is a little-death that bring total obliteration. In this case, fear of our ship brings total obliteration of reason and understanding what SW is all about, always have been and always will be.
@vaderito

This^^^ so much. It's unfortunate, but that really is the elephant in the room when it comes to many of the most vehement opponents against any positive development (compassion or sympathy) between Rey and Kylo. That's why their arguments start veering off toward severity, illogic and scenarios that look nothing like SW.

They're afraid of character development between Rey and Kylo. They know what it could mean.
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Post by BastilaBey on Sat 23 Jul 2016, 3:29 am

There's quite a double standard at work with some hardcore fans who hate the idea of Kylo earning Rey's forgiveness, compassion or understanding of any kind. As others have said, Luke's compassion and Vader's sacrifice defined Star Wars. That Rey couldn't feel compassion - which is something that's central to Jedi teachings - does not seem at all in keeping with the genre and meaning of this saga. It's not Resident Evil or Kill Bill, and a heroine being able to forgive is a strength, not a weakness.

There are also fans who insist on Rey not being anything to do with Kylo's redemption, that it should only be Leia and Luke involved. To me, that undermines Rey's role as the protagonist. She wouldn't be a prop in Kylo's story - if anything, he's a prop in hers.
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Post by Kessel on Sat 23 Jul 2016, 4:03 am

@BastilaBey wrote:There's quite a double standard at work with some hardcore fans who hate the idea of Kylo earning Rey's forgiveness, compassion or understanding of any kind. As others have said, Luke's compassion and Vader's sacrifice defined Star Wars. That Rey couldn't feel compassion - which is something that's central to Jedi teachings - does not seem at all in keeping with the genre and meaning of this saga. It's not Resident Evil or Kill Bill, and a heroine being able to forgive is a strength, not a weakness.

There are also fans who insist on Rey not being anything to do with Kylo's redemption, that it should only be Leia and Luke involved. To me, that undermines Rey's role as the protagonist. She wouldn't be a prop in Kylo's story - if anything, he's a prop in hers.
@BastilaBey

There is definitely a double standard at play with a small group of fans. If they believe Rey will be diminished as a character if she feels compassion and forgiveness for Kylo, these "fans" must think Luke is the biggest wuss and sucker to have ever graced the screen. They must also think the Jedi are wusses as well.

It doesn't matter what a small group of fans with an extreme opinion "demand" must happen in the story or what is acceptable. They're going to be disappointed. Extreme and absolute views usually end up being incorrect (i.e. The Sith).

_________________
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Post by MeadowofAshes on Sat 23 Jul 2016, 4:36 am

@BastilaBey wrote:There's quite a double standard at work with some hardcore fans who hate the idea of Kylo earning Rey's forgiveness, compassion or understanding of any kind. As others have said, Luke's compassion and Vader's sacrifice defined Star Wars. That Rey couldn't feel compassion - which is something that's central to Jedi teachings - does not seem at all in keeping with the genre and meaning of this saga. It's not Resident Evil or Kill Bill, and a heroine being able to forgive is a strength, not a weakness.

There are also fans who insist on Rey not being anything to do with Kylo's redemption, that it should only be Leia and Luke involved. To me, that undermines Rey's role as the protagonist. She wouldn't be a prop in Kylo's story - if anything, he's a prop in hers.
@BastilaBey Spot on. And not only is Rey not feeling compassion toward Kylo antithetical to the values of SW, it's completely out of character for her. This is Rey who, in spite of her tough exterior, saved BB-8 from the desert, chose not to sell him for more rations than she'd likely ever seen in her life, and chose to complete the mission rather than run away with Finn. Rey who, in spite of scarring a disarmed Kylo out of rage, looked back at him across the ravine and then back in his direction again before boarding the Falcon. She's like Han, all heart. Girl's a walking embodiment of compassion.
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Post by Slade on Sat 23 Jul 2016, 5:10 am

@MeadowofAshes wrote:
@BastilaBey wrote:There's quite a double standard at work with some hardcore fans who hate the idea of Kylo earning Rey's forgiveness, compassion or understanding of any kind. As others have said, Luke's compassion and Vader's sacrifice defined Star Wars. That Rey couldn't feel compassion - which is something that's central to Jedi teachings - does not seem at all in keeping with the genre and meaning of this saga. It's not Resident Evil or Kill Bill, and a heroine being able to forgive is a strength, not a weakness.

There are also fans who insist on Rey not being anything to do with Kylo's redemption, that it should only be Leia and Luke involved. To me, that undermines Rey's role as the protagonist. She wouldn't be a prop in Kylo's story - if anything, he's a prop in hers.
@BastilaBey Spot on. And not only is Rey not feeling compassion toward Kylo antithetical to the values of SW, it's completely out of character for her. This is Rey who, in spite of her tough exterior, saved BB-8 from the desert, chose not to sell him for more rations than she'd likely ever seen in her life, and chose to complete the mission rather than run away with Finn. Rey who, in spite of scarring a disarmed Kylo out of rage, looked back at him across the ravine and then back in his direction again before boarding the Falcon. She's like Han, all heart. Girl's a walking embodiment of compassion.
@MeadowofAshes

Here is a clue too: when she rescues BB8, she says, "That's just Teeto. He has no respect for anyone." That tells me that Rey values basic decency (as if saving bb8 didn't).

Playing devil's advocate, she was facing Kylo when the ground split, and at the Falcon she could have looked back out of fear he had somehow come up on them. I honestly don't know what she was thinking or feeling towards kylo at those moments.
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Post by vaderito on Sat 23 Jul 2016, 6:11 am

@MeadowofAshes wrote:
@BastilaBey wrote:There's quite a double standard at work with some hardcore fans who hate the idea of Kylo earning Rey's forgiveness, compassion or understanding of any kind. As others have said, Luke's compassion and Vader's sacrifice defined Star Wars. That Rey couldn't feel compassion - which is something that's central to Jedi teachings - does not seem at all in keeping with the genre and meaning of this saga. It's not Resident Evil or Kill Bill, and a heroine being able to forgive is a strength, not a weakness.

There are also fans who insist on Rey not being anything to do with Kylo's redemption, that it should only be Leia and Luke involved. To me, that undermines Rey's role as the protagonist. She wouldn't be a prop in Kylo's story - if anything, he's a prop in hers.
@BastilaBey Spot on. And not only is Rey not feeling compassion toward Kylo antithetical to the values of SW, it's completely out of character for her. This is Rey who, in spite of her tough exterior, saved BB-8 from the desert, chose not to sell him for more rations than she'd likely ever seen in her life, and chose to complete the mission rather than run away with Finn. Rey who, in spite of scarring a disarmed Kylo out of rage, looked back at him across the ravine and then back in his direction again before boarding the Falcon. She's like Han, all heart. Girl's a walking embodiment of compassion.
@MeadowofAshes

or we just call spade spade. They know their ship sunk and are now grasping at straws that could (in their wishful thinking) sink ours. No compassion, no romance. No redemption, no romance. It's "my ship sunk yours must too". That's the gist of "Rey should be unattached Jedi cause she needs no man if I can't get my ship to sail" and "Rey will lose her agency if she forgives/has compassion for Kylo cause the story leads to their romance and I support ship that Reylo sinks" It has nothing to do with "concern for young girls" "progress", etc. Classic ship war.

So they try to deny SW's essence which is love, compassion, hope, forgiveness, etc because they see where the story is going and that sinks their ships, headcanons and other castles in the clouds they built around things that aren't in the movie cause that's not the story (Ship, Ship Force Bond - they even have to copy Reylo cause they have no idea what to do with their ship since there's nothing in the movie that supports it or foreshadow future, Reywalker, Jedi!Finn). Shipper war.
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Post by motherofpearl1 on Sat 23 Jul 2016, 6:40 am

I think it all stems from the fact that some people just do not want to see Kylo redeemed.
They don't want Kylo to be the 'last Skywalker'.
They want a 'bad guy' through and through, not a tortured soul who's made the wrong choices in life. They want to hate Kylo Ren, not pity him, or empathise with him.
But...what a tragic fate for the OT cast, eh? The boy that is the child of two of them, the 'Force heir' of the third, an irredeemable, evil creature. How can anyone who loves the OT wish that on them?
How can anyone who loved the 'original' message of the OT want that?
If you want 'irredeemable' villains you have Snoke and Hux. Hux may have a sympathetic childhood, but unlike Kylo he isn't mentally ill, doesn't have any psychological conflict and actually revelled in the destruction of the Hosnian system. I honestly can't see him 'coming back' from that. And Snoke...he is the Voldermort of the movies, definitely.

I remember in TFA novelisation, Han Telling Leia that their son had 'always' been drawn to the Dark Side. But what exactly is he 'Dark Side'?

The darker part of human nature, fear, anger,pain. And what if Han had stopped to wonder why his son was angry, why he was afraid, [i]why[/i he was in pain?
Kylo may have made bad choices, but his decisions were influenced by a lot of things not of his doing, sadly. He was a victim. And that is exactly why I want very much to see him redeemed.
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Post by MeadowofAshes on Sat 23 Jul 2016, 6:46 am

@vaderito That's just... pitiful. The whole concept of shipping wars is really bizarre to me. Like, I've been writing fanfiction for years, but I guess mine just didn't feature controversial pairings (until this year apparently). I had no concept of the term "shipping" until February 2016. And I feel really old saying this, but back in the day when I was first consuming fanfiction as a teenager I'm pretty sure the thing to do was just stay out of stories that had pairings and content you didn't like. So either (1) shipping wars were a thing then and I had no idea or (2) they weren't a concept to me because they weren't a thing, one of the two. I don't know. Either way, it's one of the most embarrassing things I've seen to date. I mean, honestly. Grown people fighting over which fictional characters are going to bang or not and then throwing the basic moral themes of a story out the window to cater to their own headcanon. Get outta here.
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Post by vaderito on Sat 23 Jul 2016, 6:47 am

@motherofpearl1 wrote:I think it all stems from the fact that some people just do not want to see Kylo redeemed.
They don't want Kylo to be the 'last Skywalker'.
They want a 'bad guy' through and through, not a tortured soul who's made the wrong choices in life. They want to hate Kylo Ren, not pity him, or empathise with him.
But...what a tragic fate for the OT cast, eh? The boy that is the child of two of them, the 'Force heir' of the third, an irredeemable, evil creature. How can anyone who loves the OT wish that on them?
How can anyone who loved the 'original' message of the OT want that?
If you want 'irredeemable' villains you have Snoke and Hux. Hux may have a sympathetic childhood, but unlike Kylo he isn't mentally ill, doesn't have any psychological conflict and actually revelled in the destruction of the Hosnian system. I honestly can't see him 'coming back' from that. And Snoke...he is the Voldermort of the movies, definitely.

I remember in TFA novelisation, Han Telling Leia that their son had 'always' been drawn to the Dark Side. But what exactly is he 'Dark Side'?

The darker part of human nature, fear, anger,pain. And what if Han had stopped to wonder why his son was angry, why he was afraid, [i]why[/i he was in pain?
Kylo may have made bad choices, but his decisions were influenced by a lot of things not of his doing, sadly. He was a victim. And that is exactly why I want very much to see him redeemed.
@motherofpearl1

And Phasma. Snoke, Hux and Phasma are cut from the same cartoon villain cloth that Pablo loves so much.  Very Happy
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Post by vaderito on Sat 23 Jul 2016, 6:55 am

@MeadowofAshes wrote:@vaderito That's just... pitiful. The whole concept of shipping wars is really bizarre to me. Like, I've been writing fanfiction for years, but I guess mine just didn't feature controversial pairings (until this year apparently). I had no concept of the term "shipping" until February 2016. And I feel really old saying this, but back in the day when I was first consuming fanfiction as a teenager I'm pretty sure the thing to do was just stay out of stories that had pairings and content you didn't like. So either (1) shipping wars were a thing then and I had no idea or (2) they weren't a concept to me because they weren't a thing, one of the two. I don't know. Either way, it's one of the most embarrassing things I've seen to date. I mean, honestly. Grown people fighting over which fictional characters are going to bang or not and then throwing the basic moral themes of a story out the window to cater to their own headcanon. Get outta here.
@MeadowofAshes

Shipper wars are inevitable when there's one female character and 2 men. If there was no Kylo than they would troll fans of pairing her with whatever other male character Rey interacted with in a suggested manner (Uncle Poe, Hux, whoever). Don't think that Damerey would have gotten away without Finnreys and Storm Pilots wraith if there had been an actual possibility of that pairing. 

JB continues to hype KMT, calls her "the new face of SW". Once that ship becomes canon people will calm down. It's really just this period that's the worst.
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Post by Darth Dingbat on Sat 23 Jul 2016, 7:45 am

@vaderito wrote:
@MeadowofAshes wrote:@vaderito That's just... pitiful. The whole concept of shipping wars is really bizarre to me. Like, I've been writing fanfiction for years, but I guess mine just didn't feature controversial pairings (until this year apparently). I had no concept of the term "shipping" until February 2016. And I feel really old saying this, but back in the day when I was first consuming fanfiction as a teenager I'm pretty sure the thing to do was just stay out of stories that had pairings and content you didn't like. So either (1) shipping wars were a thing then and I had no idea or (2) they weren't a concept to me because they weren't a thing, one of the two. I don't know. Either way, it's one of the most embarrassing things I've seen to date. I mean, honestly. Grown people fighting over which fictional characters are going to bang or not and then throwing the basic moral themes of a story out the window to cater to their own headcanon. Get outta here.
@MeadowofAshes

Shipper wars are inevitable when there's one female character and 2 men. If there was no Kylo than they would troll fans of pairing her with whatever other male character Rey interacted with in a suggested manner (Uncle Poe, Hux, whoever). Don't think that Damerey would have gotten away without Finnreys and Storm Pilots wraith if there had been an actual possibility of that pairing. 

JB continues to hype KMT, calls her "the new face of SW". Once that ship becomes canon people will calm down. It's really just this period that's the worst.
@vaderito

FinnTran is the ship that will cure all ills, salvage our crops, and stop climate change. It will bring people to their knees and move them to happy tears by its sheer awesomeness, and I for one await it as the Ship of Pure Joy that has been prophesied to come.

No pressure or anything, Kelly and John. No pressure.
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Post by vaderito on Sat 23 Jul 2016, 8:00 am

@Darth Dingbat wrote:


FinnTran is the ship that will cure all ills, salvage our crops, and stop climate change. It will bring people to their knees and move them to happy tears by its sheer awesomeness, and I for one await it as the Ship of Pure Joy that has been prophesied to come.

No pressure or anything, Kelly and John. No pressure.
@Darth Dingbat

cheers cheers cheers cheers cheers
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