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Post by vaderito on Wed 27 Jul 2016, 1:38 pm

@FrolickingFizzgig wrote:  
My fav:

"I don't care if Kylo has to be redeemed or whatever as long as Rey has nothing to do with it. In fact, she deserves never to have to set eyes on that monster ever again."

The only reason they would want them to never see each other again is because their scenes always transpire into some form of heavy breathing and staring into each other's eyes. They are a hero and villain who have each witnessed the other's greatest fears. They know things about each other nobody else has ever known, and that's fascinating! I'm on the edge of my seat to see where the writers take that dynamic because it's unique, full of potential and very worthy of SW.

@FrolickingFizzgig

yes, and they know that with connection like this, and the fact that the Force is calling to both of them at the same time, which is unheard of in SW movie, heck, the Force is showing them where they must go (where the Jedi began), there's no chance in hell that a) they are going to hook up with other people or b) remain unattached Jedi who need no man/woman. Which is why they are rooting for Kylo's death and reywalker cause Last Skywalker =/= death. They also keep forgetting that Kylo = Last Solo too. So double no to dying.
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Post by ISeeAnIsland on Wed 27 Jul 2016, 2:11 pm

@CienaRee wrote:
@motherofpearl1 wrote:I can't help but think that if people see Rey feeling compassion for Kylo is 'weakness', then they're acting like Snoke!!
@motherofpearl1
Right?It just frustrates me to no end that it's most likley because idolzie her and think she's a little girl who needs protection frombad evil Kylo. the father-son relationship between Luke and Vader.I'm not even sure it's about sexism because I haven't seen anyone  questioning how Luke can love Vader agter all the atsrocaties he's commited and for that matter they're not really blaming Leia or calling her weak for loving and wnating her son back eventhough she's aware he's done horribale things.I certantly don't see anyone saying how loving your parent/child despite him being a killer sends an awful message to people so where is this crap coming from?
I also completly agree about Rey finding something of worth to love in Kylo as the man he is.I mean even if he redeems himself he'll never be the Ben Solo from before.Too much has happened and Kylo himself seems to believe it's too late for him to be that person again.Some people say that Kylo is delusional and while that is true to an extent I think deep down he knows fully well that what he's doing is wrong and that Snoke is evi(him telling Han it's too late for him is a goof example of it) but he chooses to ignore it because it's easier to live beliving you're doing a right thing than live in guilt.
@CienaRee

Yes! I can't help but think that part of what drove Ben/Kylo to his current situation is that he felt unworthy and unloved (tying in with his abandonment issues).

Part of what is going to drive his redemption arc is coming to accept that he is worthy of being loved (even if it's not yet necessarily romantic love at that point), and I think that Rey is probably the only person who can do that for him at this point.

If they really want to go for the full tearjerker treatment for the GA, they could have a scene similar to the "It's not your fault" scene from Good Will Hunting.
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Post by snufkin on Wed 27 Jul 2016, 2:31 pm

@Macha Ren wrote:part of the reason the antis don't want Rey to be compassionate sounds a lot like the plot to Footloose

music leads to dancing leads to touching leads to feelings leads to ZOMG sex.

Seriously, that is their argument for why Rey cannot be a compassionate person to him. This is exactly what it boils down to.

Prediction that this thought is going to occur to Snoke at some point, about how things are going to go South for him because his disgruntled employee really likes her and that's bad news for business.


Last edited by snufkin on Wed 27 Jul 2016, 9:30 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Post by Macha Ren on Wed 27 Jul 2016, 2:55 pm

Honestly I think for Kylo to start down the redemption path, he first needs to learn to forgive himself. Ben was his first victim and he needs to realize the first person he hurt was himself. Yes, he has made some horrible, unforgivable decisions as an adult, but it all started when he was a child. He was groomed, he was twisted to believe wrong was right and that evil can be good. He needs to realize that some of his consent he gave in the whole Snoke dynamic when he was younger was not valid because he was a child.

Somehow the concept of grooming became forbidden in conversations, but if you look at the dynamic of grooming, it is hard to see him the victim of sustained trauma and abuse. These bulletpoints come from a crime victim resource on line ( https://victimsofcrime.org/media/reporting-on-child-sexual-abuse/grooming-dynamic-of-csa. ) And no, I'm not saying he was abused that way. But the grooming dynamic is still valid. I have substituted reference to sexual abuse with themes in brackets in the below text

* Identifying and targeting the victim. Any child or teen may be a potential victim. Some predators may be attracted to children and youth with certain characteristics or may target youth with certain co-existing factors—such as vulnerable parents—to facilitate the crime.

*Gaining trust and access. The perpetrator may observe the child and assesses his/her vulnerabilities to learn how best to approach and interact with the child. Perpetrators may offer the victims special attention, understanding and a sympathetic ear, and then engage the child in ways that eventually gain their friendship and trust (they may play games with victims or give them rides, provide them with gifts and/or special treats).

*Playing a role in the child’s life. The perpetrator may manipulate the relationship so that it appears he or she is the only one who fully understands the child or meets the child’s needs in a particular way. A perpetrator may also exploit a youth’s empathy and convince the young person that s/he is the only one who understands the perpetrator and reinforce that the perpetrator “needs” the child or youth.

*Isolating the child. Offering the child rides and/or taking the child out of his or her surroundings is one way that the perpetrator may separate the child from others and gain access to the child alone, so that others cannot witness the abuse. (Note that in other instances, perpetrators have been successful in molesting victims without detection while other adults were in the room.)

*Creating secrecy around the relationship. The perpetrator may reinforce the special connection with the victim when they are alone or through private communication with the victim (such as letters, emails or text messages), and strengthen it with admonitions against telling anyone, lest others be unhappy about it. The perpetrator may threaten the victim with disclosure, suicide, physical harm to the child or loved ones, or other traumas if he or she tells.

*Initiating [inappropriate Force] contact. With the power over the child victim established through emotional connection coercion or one of the other tactics, the perpetrator may eventually initiate physical contact with the victim. It may begin with [benign Force-related communications] that is not overtly [abusive] (though a predator may find it [personally] gratifying) and that may appear to be casual (arm around the shoulder, pat on the knee, etc.). Gradually, the perpetrator may introduce more [contact/bonding through the Force.] By breaking down inhibitions and desensitizing the child, the perpetrator can begin overtly [manipulate] the child.

*Controlling the relationship. Perpetrators rely on the secrecy of the relationship to keep it going, and to ensure that the child will not reveal the abuse. Children are often afraid of disclosing the abuse. They may have been told that they will not be believed, or that something about the child “makes” the abuser do this to them. The child may also feel shame, or fear that they will be blamed. Often, the perpetrator threatens the child to ensure that s/he won’t disclose the abuse.

If Snoke was contacting Ben "since the beginning", that means an age you can count on one hand. Consent for such a relationship cannot be given by a child. He was a victim. Period. There is no wiggling out of it.

He needs to forgive himself for being manipulated by Snoke. Yes, he has made horrid decisions as an adult, but those decisions and sense of entrapment stem from hard-wired behavior reinforced since childhood.
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Post by FrolickingFizzgig on Thu 28 Jul 2016, 12:30 am

ARCHIVE: Can Kylo Be Redeemed? - 1 - Page 40 Screen12

I thought this was somewhat of consequence to "redemption." It's a joke, but one Pablo has made a few times, so it's clearly something the production crew has discussed amongst themselves before. If Kylo is—in a way—meant to be a metaphor for over-entitled OT fanboys, are people really expecting him not to have his delusions shattered? He's basically comparing an entire (and enormous) group of fans to the Han Solo murdering villain. A metaphor like this, even one that is meant mostly as a joke, is only really effective if it pushes some major theme or proves a point. In this case that point would be to show Kylo going from OT fanboy to tolerant, new age fan prepared to embrace the future of the franchise. That's actually pretty powerful!
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Post by motherofpearl1 on Thu 28 Jul 2016, 2:00 am

Either that or he's going to alienate a lot of people.... Very Happy
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Post by motherofpearl1 on Thu 28 Jul 2016, 2:05 am

@Macha Ren wrote:Honestly I think for Kylo to start down the redemption path, he first needs to learn to forgive himself. Ben was his first victim and he needs to realize the first person he hurt was himself. Yes, he has made some horrible, unforgivable decisions as an adult, but it all started when he was a child. He was groomed, he was twisted to believe wrong was right and that evil can be good. He needs to realize that some of his consent he gave in the whole Snoke dynamic when he was younger was not valid because he was a child.

Somehow the concept of grooming became forbidden in conversations, but if you look at the dynamic of grooming, it is hard to see him the victim of sustained trauma and abuse. These bulletpoints come from a crime victim resource on line ( https://victimsofcrime.org/media/reporting-on-child-sexual-abuse/grooming-dynamic-of-csa. ) And no, I'm not saying he was abused that way. But the grooming dynamic is still valid. I have substituted reference to sexual abuse with themes in brackets in the below text

* Identifying and targeting the victim. Any child or teen may be a potential victim. Some predators may be attracted to children and youth with certain characteristics or may target youth with certain co-existing factors—such as vulnerable parents—to facilitate the crime.

*Gaining trust and access. The perpetrator may observe the child and assesses his/her vulnerabilities to learn how best to approach and interact with the child. Perpetrators may offer the victims special attention, understanding and a sympathetic ear, and then engage the child in ways that eventually gain their friendship and trust (they may play games with victims or give them rides, provide them with gifts and/or special treats).

*Playing a role in the child’s life. The perpetrator may manipulate the relationship so that it appears he or she is the only one who fully understands the child or meets the child’s needs in a particular way. A perpetrator may also exploit a youth’s empathy and convince the young person that s/he is the only one who understands the perpetrator and reinforce that the perpetrator “needs” the child or youth.

*Isolating the child. Offering the child rides and/or taking the child out of his or her surroundings is one way that the perpetrator may separate the child from others and gain access to the child alone, so that others cannot witness the abuse. (Note that in other instances, perpetrators have been successful in molesting victims without detection while other adults were in the room.)

*Creating secrecy around the relationship. The perpetrator may reinforce the special connection with the victim when they are alone or through private communication with the victim (such as letters, emails or text messages), and strengthen it with admonitions against telling anyone, lest others be unhappy about it. The perpetrator may threaten the victim with disclosure, suicide, physical harm to the child or loved ones, or other traumas if he or she tells.

*Initiating [inappropriate Force] contact. With the power over the child victim established through emotional connection coercion or one of the other tactics, the perpetrator may eventually initiate physical contact with the victim. It may begin with [benign Force-related communications] that is not overtly [abusive] (though a predator may find it [personally] gratifying) and that may appear to be casual (arm around the shoulder, pat on the knee, etc.). Gradually, the perpetrator may introduce more [contact/bonding through the Force.] By breaking down inhibitions and desensitizing the child, the perpetrator can begin overtly [manipulate] the child.

*Controlling the relationship. Perpetrators rely on the secrecy of the relationship to keep it going, and to ensure that the child will not reveal the abuse. Children are often afraid of disclosing the abuse. They may have been told that they will not be believed, or that something about the child “makes” the abuser do this to them. The child may also feel shame, or fear that they will be blamed. Often, the perpetrator threatens the child to ensure that s/he won’t disclose the abuse.

If Snoke was contacting Ben "since the beginning", that means an age you can count on one hand. Consent for such a relationship cannot be given by a child. He was a victim. Period. There is no wiggling out of it.

He needs to forgive himself for being manipulated by Snoke. Yes, he has made horrid decisions as an adult, but those decisions and sense of entrapment stem from hard-wired behavior reinforced since childhood.
@Macha Ren

Exactly.
What makes him so sympathetic in my opinion is his utter lack of self worth.
This man hates himself. You are not born hating yourself, someone has destroyed Kylo's self esteem to the degree he sees the man he was as someone who should be killed. It breaks my heart.
Monsters don't loathe themselves like that, victims do.
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Post by Kessel on Thu 28 Jul 2016, 3:43 am

@FrolickingFizzgig wrote:ARCHIVE: Can Kylo Be Redeemed? - 1 - Page 40 Screen12

I thought this was somewhat of consequence to "redemption." It's a joke, but one Pablo has made a few times, so it's clearly something the production crew has discussed amongst themselves before. If Kylo is—in a way—meant to be a metaphor for over-entitled OT fanboys, are people really expecting him not to have his delusions shattered? He's basically comparing an entire (and enormous) group of fans to the Han Solo murdering villain. A metaphor like this, even one that is meant mostly as a joke, is only really effective if it pushes some major theme or proves a point.  In this case that point would be to show Kylo going from OT fanboy to tolerant, new age fan prepared to embrace the future of the franchise. That's actually pretty powerful!
@FrolickingFizzgig

Agreed. So many of the OT anti-Kylo people (who think Kylo is a "weak a**" villain or hate him for killing Han) actually share a lot in common with Kylo when it comes to entitlement and strong convictions on how the story must unfold.

Kylo will most likely be shown his ways are wrong and be redeemed after acknowledging his errors and enacting change.  If Kylo is (even partially or vaguely) a representation of OT fans, what would the story be saying if he's not redeemed? It's so meta, it's actually kind of funny.
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Post by Macha Ren on Thu 28 Jul 2016, 1:03 pm

Wait, I am OT, and I really like Kylo.

Can't stand Anakin. Have never liked a villain before. But yeah, Anakin never had depth, so I guess that is why I like Kylo.

And yes, Pablo is totally trolling antis. His meta is very subtle.
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Post by Saracene on Fri 29 Jul 2016, 6:44 am

@FrolickingFizzgig wrote:My fav:

"I don't care if Kylo has to be redeemed or whatever as long as Rey has nothing to do with it. In fact, she deserves never to have to set eyes on that monster ever again."
@FrolickingFizzgig

Suuuuuuuure... Kylo will be redeemed, but it will have absolutely nothing to do with the series' main character.

This obsession with Rey's "purity" or whatever is patronising as hell IMO.
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Post by motherofpearl1 on Fri 29 Jul 2016, 7:34 am

'That monster'. Sigh.

You mean the 'monster' cursed with a power that left him open to the psychological manipulations of a real monster? The mentally ill kid so desperate for understanding he latches on to a complete stranger who's technically his enemy as a kindred spirit? The lost child who thinks his parents never loved or wanted him? The guy trying desperately to be a complete Censored while sparing the life of a lowly trooper because he reminds him of himself?

That isn't a 'monster' in my book - far from it. As for Rey - what kind of a heroine do they think she is? Some kind of milksop wish fufillment of a 'perfect' person who never makes a mistake? Or a three dimensional complex character with her own conflicts, such as deliberately disfiguring her enemy after disarming and beating him even though moments before he'd practically offered her an olive branch?

Give me strength... Rolling Eyes
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Post by Saracene on Fri 29 Jul 2016, 7:56 am

I actually think that Kylo is both a monster and a lost little boy. That's what makes him so interesting. His portrayal in TFA is mostly dark except for those flashes of humanity that indicate that the dark side hasn't taken over him completely yet, and in Star Wars it means 100% redemption down the track. I'll fully admit though that I'm probably not quite as full of sympathy towards him as other fans are.
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Post by motherofpearl1 on Fri 29 Jul 2016, 7:59 am

By the way...one of my cats looks a lot like your avatar!!
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Post by Saracene on Fri 29 Jul 2016, 8:05 am

@motherofpearl1 wrote:By the way...one of my cats looks a lot like your avatar!!
@motherofpearl1

Is it an oriental breed as well?

I'm actually thinking of changing it to a pic of a borzoi dog... I'm a cat person through and through but the borzoi!Ben stole my heart, I think Smile
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Post by motherofpearl1 on Fri 29 Jul 2016, 8:37 am

She's half Oriental, the same ears and eyes. But it's mostly the expression!

I saw Adam interviewed and he was holding up a picture of himself in the Marines next to the picture of the cat, he's amazingly good natured about his ears, but I think it's time they knocked off the jokes. Especially when many of those ridiculing his looks aren't exactly oil paintings themselves.
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Post by Macha Ren on Fri 29 Jul 2016, 9:22 am

@motherofpearl1 wrote:'That monster'. Sigh.

You mean the 'monster' cursed with a power that left him open to the psychological manipulations of a real monster? The mentally ill kid so desperate for understanding he latches on to a complete stranger who's technically his enemy as a kindred spirit? The lost child who thinks his parents never loved or wanted him? The guy trying desperately to be a complete Censored while sparing the life of a lowly trooper because he reminds him of himself?

That isn't a 'monster' in my book - far from it. As for Rey - what kind of a heroine do they think she is? Some kind of milksop wish fufillment of a 'perfect' person who never makes a mistake? Or a three dimensional complex character with her own conflicts, such as deliberately disfiguring her enemy after disarming and beating him even though moments before he'd practically offered her an olive branch?

Give me strength... Rolling Eyes
@motherofpearl1

Is it bad that I am so sick of the antis that I want Rey to kiss that scar they cheer about?
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Post by motherofpearl1 on Fri 29 Jul 2016, 9:43 am

I can see that happening.
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Post by SoloSideCousin on Fri 29 Jul 2016, 3:04 pm

@motherofpearl1 wrote:'That monster'. Sigh.

You mean the 'monster' cursed with a power that left him open to the psychological manipulations of a real monster? The mentally ill kid so desperate for understanding he latches on to a complete stranger who's technically his enemy as a kindred spirit? The lost child who thinks his parents never loved or wanted him? The guy trying desperately to be a complete Censored while sparing the life of a lowly trooper because he reminds him of himself?

That isn't a 'monster' in my book - far from it. As for Rey - what kind of a heroine do they think she is? Some kind of milksop wish fufillment of a 'perfect' person who never makes a mistake? Or a three dimensional complex character with her own conflicts, such as deliberately disfiguring her enemy after disarming and beating him even though moments before he'd practically offered her an olive branch?

Give me strength... Rolling Eyes
@motherofpearl1

Oh this is a such a beautiful post! So perfectly to the point! Bravo!!!!! cheers cheers cheers
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