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Post by Saracene on Thu 12 May 2016, 4:16 am

Honest Trailers are great. I liked their "starring" name for Kylo in their TFA Honest Trailer. Better Anakin, heh heh. Considering how many insulting names they could have come up for him, it probably means they liked him a lot.
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Post by Little_Boots on Thu 12 May 2016, 4:20 am

@Saracene wrote:Honest Trailers are great. I liked their "starring" name for Kylo in their TFA Honest Trailer. Better Anakin, heh heh. Considering how many insulting names they could have come up for him, it probably means they liked him a lot.
@Saracene

Yea I love Honest Trailers too, and I too get the feeling they like Kylo a lot. Heck if they can tell a good character unlike some people around, why wouldn't they Smile I think Empire Magazine called Kylo one of the greatest Star Wars villains. Or probably the greatest.
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Post by Guest on Thu 12 May 2016, 4:22 am

@Little_Boots wrote:
@Saracene wrote:
@Force22 wrote:@vaderito

It's a really cool and unique looking ship.

Plus she's into ships, piloting and stuff. She might even know what kind of ship it is. I don't blame her. Razz
@Force22

I think of Kylo's ship as Evil Seagull  Twisted Evil  Twisted Evil

Spock/Uhura romance was a total surprise to me, but I enjoyed the twist. You all thought she was going to crumble before the unstoppable macho charm of Kirk? Nah, she'd already hooked up with the awkward nerd.
@Saracene

Ever watch the Honest Trailer for Star Trek 2009 the description for that romance was hilarious. All fans of Trek all went "whaaaaaa"????!!!! When they saw her kiss Spock lol
@Little_Boots
Just like Kirk when he saw them kissing Very Happy "Whaaaaat" I think most fans liked the twist, it was unexpected but somehow obvious (when you know about it) Like a riddle,the answer seems impossible to find but after you hear it it you realize that somehow you've always known the answer Very Happy

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Post by Kessel on Thu 12 May 2016, 4:46 am

@Little_Boots wrote:
@Saracene wrote:Honest Trailers are great. I liked their "starring" name for Kylo in their TFA Honest Trailer. Better Anakin, heh heh. Considering how many insulting names they could have come up for him, it probably means they liked him a lot.
@Saracene

Yea I love Honest Trailers too, and I too get the feeling they like Kylo a lot. Heck if they can tell a good character unlike some people around, why wouldn't they Smile I think Empire Magazine called Kylo one of the greatest Star Wars villains. Or probably the greatest.
@Little_Boots

I agree, I like Honest Trailers too and I enjoyed the TFA one. The teasing was lighthearted; them calling TFA "A Familiar Hope" made me laugh.

Kylo is popular and I think his popularity will only grow after we learn more about him and see more of his development in episodes VIII and IX.
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Post by FrolickingFizzgig on Thu 12 May 2016, 5:17 am

@BastilaBey wrote:@vaderito thank you! so the love story is 'central', and yet one of our big 3 hadn't even been conceptualized at the moment jj was talking about it. iiiinteresting Wink
@BastilaBey
They couldn't decide what kind of character Finn (then called Sam) should be until after JJ/Kasdan took over the script in October of 2013. He was just a concept who wasn't part of the story yet. They went through a bunch of ideas: pirate, bounty-hunter, tribesman, etc. Finally Kasdan gave the idea of a rogue Stormtrooper and I guess it caught on. The character was named Finn. This all happened after October 2013. The interview about the romance stuff happened in June 2013 (4-5 months before JJ/Kasdan took over the script). As Pablo pointed out, Finn and Maz (and probably Poe as well) were still concepts at that stage and weren't part of the story.

The thing that could help me see when this all came together would be knowing when Jedi Killer became Han and Leia's son.
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Post by Kessel on Thu 12 May 2016, 6:05 am

@FrolickingFizzgig wrote:
@BastilaBey wrote:@vaderito thank you! so the love story is 'central', and yet one of our big 3 hadn't even been conceptualized at the moment jj was talking about it. iiiinteresting Wink
@BastilaBey
They couldn't decide what kind of character Finn (then called Sam) should be until after JJ/Kasdan took over the script in October of 2013. He was just a concept who wasn't part of the story yet. They went through a bunch of ideas: pirate, bounty-hunter, tribesman, etc. Finally Kasdan gave the idea of a rogue Stormtrooper and I guess it caught on. The character was named Finn. This all happened after October 2013. The interview about the romance stuff happened in June 2013 (4-5 months before JJ/Kasdan took over the script). As Pablo pointed out, Finn and Maz (and probably Poe as well) were still concepts at that stage and weren't part of the story.

The thing that could help me see when this all came together would be knowing when Jedi Killer became Han and Leia's son.
@FrolickingFizzgig

Regarding the bolded, I can't remember now, but was Jedi killer once meant to be a non-legacy character?

This may be a bit too speculative, but I wonder if the timing of Adam Driver's casting (or when he was first considered for the role) might give us an idea of when they decided to make Jedi Killer into Han and Leia's son (if he was originally unrelated).  I can see TPTB considering Adam for the role once Jedi Killer became a conflicted prodigal legacy son over a sun eating un-related Jedi Killer.
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Post by Darth Dingbat on Thu 12 May 2016, 6:19 am

There's so much conflicting information going around, though. It was said that Kasdan came up with the rogue Stormtrooper, but the concept art book says Michael Arndt, Rick Carter and JJ Abrams had a meeting in April 2013 where they came up with the idea of Sam being a Stormtrooper. There's concept art from April with Sam as a Stormtrooper.

I don't know when Jedi Killer became Han and Leia's son; I suppose that's not something they'd reveal in this book. In concept art from May 2013 Luke appears to be the object of his quest, and that Hamlet-like art of him holding Vader's helmet is from June. Interestingly, there was a concept of Luke holding Vader's helmet the same way from March. Perhaps Jedi Killer became Vader's grandson in June?

By the way, there is concept art from October 2013 of a castle interior that looks very much like the background of that leaked concept of Jedi Killer embracing Kira. Perhaps they were made around the same time? And this is also around the time that JJ and Kasdan reportedly "started from scratch" with the new script because Arndt hadn't got anywhere with it. I don't know how much of a story they even had before; perhaps the real story only started forming from the concepts in October-November 2013. This is when the concepts of "young Jedi Killer" also come along.
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Post by Darth Dingbat on Thu 12 May 2016, 6:34 am

Sorry, this photo of the castle interior concept art is a bit messy - I took it on my phone.

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Post by Saracene on Thu 12 May 2016, 6:42 am

@Force22 wrote:I have a huge complaint. So basically Kirk was going to be a role model and commander, except that the timeline was altered and he became almost a delinquent. Whaaaaat? How offensive is that to single mothers? But it wasn't JJ who wrote it, so I'll let it pass.
@Force22

Kirk's mother didn't remain a single mother though, she got together with another guy who young James didn't get along with (hence trashing his car).
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Post by vaderito on Thu 12 May 2016, 7:06 am

@FrolickingFizzgig wrote:
@BastilaBey wrote:@vaderito thank you! so the love story is 'central', and yet one of our big 3 hadn't even been conceptualized at the moment jj was talking about it. iiiinteresting Wink
@BastilaBey
They couldn't decide what kind of character Finn (then called Sam) should be until after JJ/Kasdan took over the script in October of 2013. He was just a concept who wasn't part of the story yet. They went through a bunch of ideas: pirate, bounty-hunter, tribesman, etc. Finally Kasdan gave the idea of a rogue Stormtrooper and I guess it caught on. The character was named Finn. This all happened after October 2013. The interview about the romance stuff happened in June 2013 (4-5 months before JJ/Kasdan took over the script). As Pablo pointed out, Finn and Maz (and probably Poe as well) were still concepts at that stage and weren't part of the story.

The thing that could help me see when this all came together would be knowing when Jedi Killer became Han and Leia's son.
@FrolickingFizzgig

I think you'll find this research useful. Guy's reliable but also a staunch Reywalker (he does say that lots of stuff is his speculation, and he speculates that Kira/Rey is a legacy, doesn't say she is):



Right, so some of the discussion in this thread has gotten a little...well, let's politely call it "passionate" and leave it at that.

So, on another topic that I suspect many of us will find interesting, I'm going to collate and summarize how most of the major story decisions of The Force Awakens came about. Please note that this record is incomplete (there's one major, major spoiler choice that no one is talking about when it happened or who had the idea yet -  Hide Spoiler Kylo Ren being Han and Leia's son ), and slightly based on rumor, but in the last couple of weeks two invaluable sources have gone public: first, the book The Art of the Force Awakens, which stretches the record back to the beginning of 2013 just after JJ Abrams was hired, and a WGA panel with Abrams, Lawrence Kasdan, and the "third man" in the TFA story equation: Michael Arndt. Entertainment Weekly has written up articles on many of the revelations there. All rumors will be in italics.

2010-2012 (various Lucas/Iger interviews): George Lucas begins preparing for retirement and looking to sell Lucasfilm. He comes into contact with Bob Iger, who wants him to sell to Disney. Disney is interested in a sequel trilogy. Lucas considers directing Episode VII himself, but instead simply prepares some initial story concepts. Kathleen Kennedy is installed as co-president of Lucasfilm.

Summer 2012 (EW/WGA): Shortly after her hiring, Kathleen Kennedy contacts Michael Arndt to inquire about his interest in writing the entire sequel trilogy. Arndt demurs, but accepts the Episode VII job. Kennedy's Episode VII pitch to Arndt is "the origin story of a female Jedi".

Summer/Fall of 2012 (EW/WGA): Arndt begins initial work on Episode VII in concert with Kennedy and Lucas. At that time, the plot is about "Kira", a young woman whose village is attacked by the villains, and goes to find Luke Skywalker. Initial MacGuffins discussed include the remains of Darth Vader and ancient Jedi artifacts. The villain is called "The Jedi Killer". It is likely at this stage that Kira is revealed to be a legacy character by the end of the script. Arndt discovers that once the story reaches Luke, it becomes hard to return the focus to the younger characters, so the choice is made to have the younger characters save the day at the end of the script themselves and then find Luke. From there, the story naturally moves to have the location of Luke be a central MacGuffin/mystery. There are even discussions that Luke may not appear until Episode IX, but it is decided the film should end with Luke Skywalker. It is also at this time that the initial male lead "Sam" emerged - essentially a Han Solo-type. The full Lucasfilm Ltd. company is informed of the decision to make the sequel trilogy in September 2012.

October 2012: The sale to Disney is finalized. It is possible at this point that the ideas Lucas claims were discarded are discarded.

November 2012: Rick Carter is hired as production designer for Episode VII, even before any director is set in stone. He forms a group called "The Visualists" who begin doing "guided imagery" explorations of what Star Wars is, visually. The team includes, among others, PT veteran Doug Chiang, and is one of the single most important groups within Lucasfilm in terms of breaking the story of the sequel trilogy.

December 2012 (EW): After JJ Abrams has initially passed on the Episode VII job, Kennedy meets with him again. Her pitch is similar to the Arndt pitch: female lead, "Who is Luke Skywalker?" Abrams accepts.

January 9, 2013 (Art of Force Awakens): The formal story group for Episode VII has its first meeting, including JJ Abrams, Kathleen Kennedy, Michael Arndt, Lawrence Kasdan, Simon Kinberg, Kiri Hart, Rick Carter, and the Visualists. It is at this meeting that the "junk planet" Jakku is pitched by Michael Arndt. "Kira" being a scavenger on said planet is adopted in the same meeting. They pick five images from Kurosawa films to outline the film tracking Kira's journey from fearful scavenger to burgeoning Jedi. Lucas' outlines are provided to the group. Anakin Skywalker's lightsaber playing a critical role in the film is in play at this point, as is the "Jedi Killer" having caused some devastating incident that has led to the estrangement of Luke, Han, and Leia.

January - June 2013 (Art of TFA/WGA/EW): The "guided art" story development phase. The art department churns out some truly wild ideas to help inspire where the story could go as Abrams, Arndt, and Kasdan/Kinberg (in consulting positions) work to crack the plot. Some major points (and intriguing digressions):
-The third male lead is initially called "John Doe" because no one knew who the f**** he should be (Jedi and bounty hunter are both pitched), until...
-April, when in one single meeting JJ Abrams pitched both the characters of Finn and Poe and sent the story off in a wildly different direction. Finn initially decided to turn after seeing a bunch of rebels thrown into space by the First Order, and Poe ditched him at the crash (Finn was wounded, but found and healed in a strange ritual by a desert tribe). Then they decided to have Poe die in the crash.
-Michael Arndt and Dennis Muren pitched Starkiller Base, initially called "Doom Star" and was located on Dantooine. At one point, the Jedi Killer ate the sun matter Starkiller Base was powered by.
-The Jedi Killer's obsession with artifacts goes back to even before this time, but is explored heavily by the art department, as is the Jedi Killer himself. One idea in play was that he would dress as Darth Vader to mock Luke
-One intriguing art piece has a Force ghost of Anakin Skywalker - whose form would shift between light-Anakin and dark-Vader
-Another intriguing art piece has the first lightsaber - essentially a crystal with rope around it
-Going along with Starkiller Base being located on Dantooine, it was pitched that Leia's resistance would be headquartered out of Darth Vader's old castle
-Much was made of the location of the first Jedi Temple being in the Emperor's private archives...which could only be found in the ruins of the Emperor's tower from the second Death Star, which would be underwater. The Falcon would dive underwater, and Kira would have to swim into the tower - as in, where Luke and Vader's duel in ROTJ was.
-The Jedi Killer and his cohorts initially began as pirates, then evolved into the First Order and eventually the Knights of Ren
-BB-8 is developed as a droid named "Surly" who is introduced saving himself from a smelting facility in a wrecked Star Destroyer
-Han Solo was originally found in a location called "Crime City", even more down-and-out than he was in the film

July 2013-November 2013 (EW/WGA/TFA Art Book) - The Arndt phase
-At this point, many of the major points of the finished film are in play, including Maz Kanata (it is unclear when much of Kylo Ren's character emerged - all indications are that the Jedi Killer was one of the biggest issues in development the whole way through, but nearly everything else seems to have come up by now. It is likely that "Kira" was still definitively revealed as a legacy character in the script at this point)
-This one reveals a major, major spoiler for the finished film:  Hide Spoiler In Arndt's initial outlines and draft, Han Solo lived and got back together with Princess Leia. Abrams is unconvinced by this, calling Han "luggage". Abrams tells Arndt that Han's story has to have something "permanent" happen in it, or else the character's inclusion in the film is pointless. This is almost certainly the point that Han Solo's death emerged and, if I may make a guess, the discussions of how to kill off Han possibly led to the birth of Kylo Ren as he exists in the finished film.
-Arndt struggles with the script, and ultimately finds that his timetable and Disney's do not line up. The decision is made to let Arndt go and have Abrams and Kasdan take over. Kasdan wants to throw out everything that had been done previously, Abrams dissuades him by pointing out that they would both be quickly incorporating what they most liked from previous development anyway.

November 2013-May 2014 (EW/WGA/Art Book/Assorted interviews of Abrams/Kasdan/actors): The Abrams/Kasdan scripting phase
-Abrams and Kasdan begin scripting. Most elements from the finished film are still in this phase, and it is probably at this point that both the Jedi Killer and Kira are revealed as legacy characters, and that they are renamed Kylo Ren and Rey.
-One major exception: Poe Dameron is still seen as dying in the TIE Fighter crash. The role is apparently offered to Michael Fassbender and possibly Chiwietel Ejiofor, both of whom turn it down. But when Abrams and Kennedy meet Oscar Isaac in March 2014 to discuss the character, Abrams decides that if Isaac accepts, Poe will survive. Isaac accepts the role (he had been dubious due to the character's early planned death, but ultimately decided that he wanted to work with Abrams). The script is altered so that Poe survives (much to Isaac's delight), prompting some additional emphasis on the X-Wing part of the final space battle (which was initially to involve a Resistance supership called The Juggernaut which would ram Star Destroyers)
-Another major exception: Captain Phasma. In one of their many, MANY designs for the Jedi Killer, the art department pitches the final Phasma design. Abrams loves it, but not for the JK. The script had featured a few different stormtrooper officers in tiny roles, they are now condensed into Phasma, with the idea to introduce Phasma here and do more with him/her in future films (Abrams is rumored to have initially talked with Benedict Cumberbatch about the role, but in May he goes to Gwendoline Christie for the part - quite possibly in response to the initial uproar over Ridley being the only new major female performer)
-Hux is said at this point to have been an older Imperial commander who survived the Battle of Endor, but they ultimately decide to go in a younger direction, likely to emphasize a particular characteristic of the First Order as compared to the Empire
-The design of Maz Kanata was supposed to have been finalized at this point so the character could be a puppet (sets were even planned with this in mind), but Maz's design is not finalized until October 2015
-It isn't quite clear when exactly Rian Johnson is hired, but it was certainly before he was officially confirmed to be writing and directing Episode VIII in June 2014. Abrams has confirmed that certain elements in TFA were tweaked - possibly by Johnson himself - to better prepare for Episode VIII. One guess would be the flashback, which initially revealed more of Rey's heritage and the full journey of Anakin's lightsaber. Another guess would be the interrogation scene, which at one point in the development apparently revealed Rey's full backstory. It is also possible that, if Kira/Rey was initially revealed as a Skywalker/Solo, that this was cut to put more emphasis on  Hide Spoiler the reveal of Kylo Ren as Ben Solo . Regardless, elements that hint at Rey being either a Solo or a Skywalker remain in the finished film, with more of them leaning towards the latter.

Now, there are definitely some shifts that happen during filming. What they are isn't quite as clear, and there are still definitely some mysterious elements of the process outlined above, but this has been personally quite fascinating to follow over the last couple of weeks. The Art of TFA book is really worth reading if you're a fan - there's some genuinely beautiful work that I hope appears in the next two films. Hope this was interesting and illuminating for people!

As to the rumors: my sources for these are generally second-hand, though these are people who have ties to LFL/the SW spoiler world. I won't go into detail here, but I trust them and their stuff has panned out (for instance, I was told at the beginning of June 2014 that Christie was playing a chrome stormtrooper commander). There's a bit of my own guesswork in there, but I've tried to specify wherever I go out on a limb versus what I've heard.

http://awardswatch.com/forums/showthread.php?39203-The-STAR-WARS-Episode-VII-Thread-The-Bluth-Awakens/page35

Post #681 Dent

I'm gonna archive it in rumors/spoilers cause I expect we may need it in the future.
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Post by Darth Dingbat on Thu 12 May 2016, 8:11 am

@Force22 wrote:
Edit: The castle also looks like some locations in Dubrovnik. Could it be that they were left for the next episode?
@Force22

It does, yes - though the castle concepts started out as Vader's castle, then Leia's castle, and finally became Maz's castle, so they weren't entirely unused.

But who knows. They seem to have upcycled the "Exotic City" concepts into the much more upscale Dubrovnik planet, so some of the early castle concepts may have been recycled for Dubrovnik as well. I'd be curious to know if they filmed in the Rector's Palace. I know it was rumoured, and I thought the Palace was prepared for filming as well, but I don't think anyone has any proof it actually happened. But there were rumours of a monastery location also, so they may have filmed in more places than the public knows about.
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Post by Guest on Thu 12 May 2016, 9:02 am

@Darth Dingbat wrote:
@Force22 wrote:
Edit: The castle also looks like some locations in Dubrovnik. Could it be that they were left for the next episode?
@Force22

It does, yes - though the castle concepts started out as Vader's castle, then Leia's castle, and finally became Maz's castle, so they weren't entirely unused.

But who knows. They seem to have upcycled the "Exotic City" concepts into the much more upscale Dubrovnik planet, so some of the early castle concepts may have been recycled for Dubrovnik as well. I'd be curious to know if they filmed in the Rector's Palace. I know it was rumoured, and I thought the Palace was prepared for filming as well, but I don't think anyone has any proof it actually happened. But there were rumours of a monastery location also, so they may have filmed in more places than the public knows about.
@Darth Dingbat
Rector's palace was closed for filming of SW, i saw an interview with Andro Vlahušić , the Mayor of Dubrovnik. Hold on, I'll try to find photo, i think i saw one on some Croatian blog... I haven't heard anything about monastery. If they filmed somewhere in secret, Lokrum island is perfect candidate
edit: I found the interview and some photos, i'll translate it and post in spoilers thread, i'm collecting everything at the moment


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Post by Darth Dingbat on Thu 12 May 2016, 9:25 am

@bela.mesecina: Glad to hear there's proof it happened! It's such a beautiful location, can't wait to see the Palace in the film.

We were talking about Annie Leibovitz and those Kerry photos of Adam and Daria Werbowy a few pages back, so I thought this might be of interest:

http://www.starwars.com/news/capturing-a-galaxy-an-interview-with-annie-leibovitz-exclusive

I didn't know Leibovitz has had a relationship with the Star Wars franchise since the OT! How cool.
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Post by vaderito on Thu 12 May 2016, 3:04 pm

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Post by BastilaBey on Thu 12 May 2016, 7:13 pm

Does anyone think the 'compassion' dialogue will have been moved to episode 8, between Snoke and Kylo, or will they have removed it entirely? Or they might bring in a different version. It's hard to guess whether Kylo's feelings would be revealed via Snoke reading his mind, or Kylo actually confessing to Rey.
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Post by Mana on Thu 12 May 2016, 7:17 pm

@BastilaBey wrote:Does anyone think the 'compassion' dialogue will have been moved to episode 8, between Snoke and Kylo, or will they have removed it entirely? Or they might bring in a different version. It's hard to guess whether Kylo's feelings would be revealed via Snoke reading his mind, or Kylo actually confessing to Rey.
@BastilaBey

well, Pablo did say that the compassion scene with Snoke and Kylo was filmed, but understandably, it didn't make it into the movie. I'm guessing Rian had a lot to do with the changes made in TFA..and maybe he might move that line of dialogue to the next movie...or maybe they decided showing instead of telling would be better...
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Post by vaderito on Thu 12 May 2016, 7:19 pm

Some version will happen, as will some version of Kylo on MF.
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Post by BastilaBey on Thu 12 May 2016, 7:20 pm

@Mana OK maybe this makes me a little sick, but I kind of like the idea of Snoke torturing Kylo because he has compassion for Rey and didn't try to kill her or actually want to bring her to Snoke. That could go a long way with generating sympathy, because he's being punished for feeling something good for our heroine.
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Post by Mana on Thu 12 May 2016, 7:24 pm

@BastilaBey wrote:@Mana OK maybe this makes me a little sick, but I kind of like the idea of Snoke torturing Kylo because he has compassion for Rey and didn't try to kill her or actually want to bring her to Snoke. That could go a long way with generating sympathy, because he's being punished for feeling something good for our heroine.
@BastilaBey

To confess the truth, I wouldn't mind seeing something like that either...in fact, I expect it to happen. I think Palpatine cut off Vaders remaining arm when the first Death Star was destroyed, as punishment, I remember GL saying something like that a while back. So Kylo might get some sort of punishment during his training period with Snoke.
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Post by BastilaBey on Thu 12 May 2016, 7:34 pm

@Mana oh my god did he really? I suppose I shouldn't be shocked at hearing Palpatine did anything evil but yikes...yeah if they do stuff like that to emphasize that Snoke is evil psychopath whereas Kylo has been just going about suppressing the light in himself in the most abominable ways, it would achieve a lot. We are going to need to see him suffer, and if that is linked to Rey being his weakness, it's even better.
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Post by ISeeAnIsland on Thu 12 May 2016, 7:53 pm

@Mana wrote:
@BastilaBey wrote:@Mana OK maybe this makes me a little sick, but I kind of like the idea of Snoke torturing Kylo because he has compassion for Rey and didn't try to kill her or actually want to bring her to Snoke. That could go a long way with generating sympathy, because he's being punished for feeling something good for our heroine.
@BastilaBey

To confess the truth, I wouldn't mind seeing something like that either...in fact, I expect it to happen. I think Palpatine cut off Vaders remaining arm when the first Death Star was destroyed, as punishment, I remember GL saying something like that a while back. So Kylo might get some sort of punishment during his training period with Snoke.
@Mana

Yikes! Maybe that's how the "Skywalker Special" for VIII happens.
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Post by IoJovi on Thu 12 May 2016, 7:57 pm

I know it's a distinct possibility, but can I say I am not a fan of the Skywalker Special in regards to Kylo? The dude had his face slashed by his lady love. Can't that be enough? cyclops
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Post by BastilaBey on Thu 12 May 2016, 8:00 pm

@iojovi I wasn't thinking of that, something more along the lines of force lightning that would simultaneously allow them to show Snoke's power - because we haven't seen anything from him yet. Could be a power we've never even seen in the SW universe.
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