ARCHIVE: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings - 6

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Post by Slade on Sat 28 May 2016, 11:52 pm

Out of curiosity, why do some of you like his ears?  (I'm being straightforward, not sarcastic or mean) Because they're cute?  Because they are so the opposite of "bad guy"?  Just curious.

That man has *no idea* how sexy he is.
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Post by ZenBrainJam on Sun 29 May 2016, 12:41 am

I am starting to think that one way the movie can tell us Ben personal history, could be a.. letter never sent. We know that a lot of messages were sent to Ben and maybe never received, it could be the same for Ben's holo messages, videos (or whatever is the right name). The only thing is that with Luke so disillusioned about Kylo I can't see him keeping all his records for so long.
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Post by Darth Dingbat on Sun 29 May 2016, 2:25 am

@Saracene wrote:
@Darth Dingbat wrote:@FrolickingFizzgig: Fair enough, but my point really is that there isn't just one and only story that COULD be told.

For example, it's of course perfectly valid if:

Version A: Kylo has regressed deeper into the Dark Side. He whips himself up into a fanatical desire to kill Rey. Big twist: When it turns out that he can't bring himself to kill Rey.

But it could just as easily be:

Version B: The events of SKB were a turning point for Kylo, in the sense of clarifying his mysterious mission and how it is to be accomplished. The effects of Han's death proved that his earlier course of action was tragically misguided. Now he had a moment of realisation and sees there is another, better way. In Episode VIII, he accepts the call, and it is the beginning of a new direction. Big twist: When it turns out that Kylo's mysterious mission is something unexpected.

See what I mean? There are different stories that might be told here, and not all of them require that Kylo must regress for character development to take place.
@Darth Dingbat

Thing is, Version A just sounds so much more Star Wars-y. It's simple, direct, has an emotional punch (and is melodramatic as heck, let's be honest). It's telling that Version B takes three times longer to outline and is a lot more vague. Plus Kylo just doesn't strike me as a man with some grand mission - he seems much more like someone driven by personal factors. The only thing in the movie that suggests a mission is the "I will finish what you started" line, but I bet even the writers couldn't explain what it actually means. Like, are we going to find out about some grand plan of Darth Vader's that somehow was never explained in the OT and that only his grandson knows about it? Way convoluted IMO.

Re: Rey's side in their duel in Episode VIII, I think it's a tad premature to assume that her role in it is going to be the same as in TFA, i.e. good innocent heroine chased by the bad guy. If the rumour about dark!Luke who tells Rey that she must kill Kylo is correct, that already changes things and gives Rey a mission, even if it's the one she doesn't welcome.
@Saracene

Well, Version B could be Version C or Version D or whatever. I pulled that out of my own head, and I'm obviously not the one writing this story, so whatever they come up with I naturally hope will be better than mine.

My point was only as a response to the thing about regression being necessary for character development. Because there are a number different stories that could be told here that wouldn't require regression - or indeed Kylo wanting to have his revenge on Rey. There would be many ways to make the events of SKB into a real turning point for him: the major difference being if Kylo is on a hero's journey of his own.

@Kylo Ren: Of course I would prefer B over A, but then I'm quite biased, as that's one of my headcanons Wink I agree with you that it would cheapen Han's sacrifice if it made no real impact on Kylo, but I don't think many others agree with us...
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Post by ZenBrainJam on Sun 29 May 2016, 3:00 am

A or B I would like to see what is this great goal that Kylo wants to achieve. Because there must be an heck of a reason behind his turning dark at 23. No remperor is not the answer. Try again Razz
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Post by Darth Dingbat on Sun 29 May 2016, 3:18 am

@ZenBrainJam wrote:A or B I would like to see what is this great goal that Kylo wants to achieve. Because there must be an heck of a reason behind his turning dark at 23. No remperor is not the answer. Try again Razz
@ZenBrainJam

Me too. It was built up as such a mystery that I expect there to be some kind of pay-off.

In fact, I expect that to be the "twist" of Episode VIII. Not "I am your father", not "I love you", but the reasons why Kylo turned and what his real goals are.

I could be wrong, of course, but this is what I hope for.
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Post by ZenBrainJam on Sun 29 May 2016, 3:28 am

@Darth Dingbat wrote:
@ZenBrainJam wrote:A or B I would like to see what is this great goal that Kylo wants to achieve. Because there must be an heck of a reason behind his turning dark at 23. No remperor is not the answer. Try again Razz
@ZenBrainJam

Me too. It was built up as such a mystery that I expect there to be some kind of pay-off.

In fact, I expect that to be the "twist" of Episode VIII. Not "I am your father", not "I love you", but the reasons why Kylo turned and what his real goals are.

I could be wrong, of course, but this is what I hope for.
@Darth Dingbat

Maybe they will give us more than one twist, the reason behind Kylo turning dark, the reason behind dark!Luke (the not academy incident I hope), the reason behind I hate him but don't want to kill him, the reason behind I chose a salad bowl as helmet.... many twists...
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Post by spacebaby45678 on Sun 29 May 2016, 3:54 am

@Kylo Ren wrote:@spacebaby45678
Ain't this scary...how we are all so much alike on this forum? Thinking of the same things at the same time?
I love it!!!
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Do I get my outsider credentials now? Smile Yeah, and AD does not need to take the Kylo mask off to make that character sexy, he has an AMAZING walk...

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Post by spacebaby45678 on Sun 29 May 2016, 4:05 am

@AnneNeville wrote:
@spacebaby45678 wrote:
@Little_Boots wrote:
@spacebaby45678 wrote:One more, why would Ren want revenge or to kill someone he has a force bond with?
@spacebaby45678

Do you not think he'll be angry at Rey? Just curious
@Little_Boots

Feeling rejected and angry does not equal revenge and killing. A little extreme, no? I have faith in them Solo genes. He has not given up on his agenda, be it "teacher" or ahem whatever else that boy has in mind.....
@spacebaby45678

Something new may happen in the first act of VIII to make Kylo angry and vengeful. We don't yet know how the story gets Kylo to AchTo.

For all we know, Snoke shows Kylo a false vision of Rey convincing Han to confront Kylo on SKB, making her responsible for forcing that unwanted confrontation.
@AnneNeville

Then we would be assuming that Kylo is still following Snoke's orders, then we would also have to assume that Snoke also knows where Rey and Luke are... Considering the power that Luke has it seems really dumb to go in without the FO, Stormtroopers & the Knigts of Ren. No way that Snoke would not just blow Ach-to the hell up if he knows Luke's location. Just the Knights and Ren going to Ach-to makes no strategic sense if revenge is what he wants. This is how you can deduce that Kylo has went Rogue. Snoke does not know where Ren, Luke or Rey are.... yet

In ESB, Darth goes in with the full power of the Empire on Toth, going after the resistance.
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Post by Gemini on Sun 29 May 2016, 4:18 am

@spacebaby45678 wrote:
@AnneNeville wrote:
@spacebaby45678 wrote:
@Little_Boots wrote:
@spacebaby45678 wrote:One more, why would Ren want revenge or to kill someone he has a force bond with?
@spacebaby45678

Do you not think he'll be angry at Rey? Just curious
@Little_Boots

Feeling rejected and angry does not equal revenge and killing. A little extreme, no? I have faith in them Solo genes. He has not given up on his agenda, be it "teacher" or ahem whatever else that boy has in mind.....
@spacebaby45678

Something new may happen in the first act of VIII to make Kylo angry and vengeful. We don't yet know how the story gets Kylo to AchTo.

For all we know, Snoke shows Kylo a false vision of Rey convincing Han to confront Kylo on SKB, making her responsible for forcing that unwanted confrontation.
@AnneNeville

Then we would be assuming that Kylo is still following Snoke's orders, then we would also have to assume that Snoke also knows where Rey and Luke are... Considering the power that Luke has it seems really dumb to go in without the FO, Stormtroopers & the Knigts of Ren.   No way that Snoke would not just blow Ach-to the hell up if he knows Luke's location. Just the Knights and Ren going to Ach-to makes no strategic sense if revenge is what he wants.  This is how you can deduce that Kylo has went Rogue.  Snoke does not know where Ren, Luke or Rey are.... yet

In ESB, Darth goes in with the full power of the Empire on Toth, going after the resistance.

Could be he knew Luke would slaughter the KOR and that's why he only went there with them. Also he wants to keep Rey away from them so he fights her until Luke has destroyed them all? Hence the reason he kills that KOR for nearly killing her. It's meant to look like he does that because he wants to kill her? But he's really just protecting her.

Or he wants to actually kill her but when she falls this breaks the spell so to speak.

I don't know which lol
@spacebaby45678
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Post by spacebaby45678 on Sun 29 May 2016, 4:46 am

@Gemini wrote:
@spacebaby45678 wrote:
@AnneNeville wrote:
@spacebaby45678 wrote:
@Little_Boots wrote:
@spacebaby45678 wrote:One more, why would Ren want revenge or to kill someone he has a force bond with?
@spacebaby45678

Do you not think he'll be angry at Rey? Just curious
@Little_Boots

Feeling rejected and angry does not equal revenge and killing. A little extreme, no? I have faith in them Solo genes. He has not given up on his agenda, be it "teacher" or ahem whatever else that boy has in mind.....
@spacebaby45678

Something new may happen in the first act of VIII to make Kylo angry and vengeful. We don't yet know how the story gets Kylo to AchTo.

For all we know, Snoke shows Kylo a false vision of Rey convincing Han to confront Kylo on SKB, making her responsible for forcing that unwanted confrontation.
@AnneNeville

Then we would be assuming that Kylo is still following Snoke's orders, then we would also have to assume that Snoke also knows where Rey and Luke are... Considering the power that Luke has it seems really dumb to go in without the FO, Stormtroopers & the Knigts of Ren.   No way that Snoke would not just blow Ach-to the hell up if he knows Luke's location. Just the Knights and Ren going to Ach-to makes no strategic sense if revenge is what he wants.  This is how you can deduce that Kylo has went Rogue.  Snoke does not know where Ren, Luke or Rey are.... yet

In ESB, Darth goes in with the full power of the Empire on Toth, going after the resistance.

Could be he knew Luke would slaughter the KOR and that's why he only went there with them. Also he wants to keep Rey away from them so he fights her until Luke has destroyed them all? Hence the reason he kills that KOR for nearly killing her. It's meant to look like he does that because he wants to kill her? But he's really just protecting her.

Or he wants to actually kill her but when she falls this breaks the spell so to speak.

I don't know which lol
@spacebaby45678
@Gemini

So Snoke knows where Luke is?
Snoke let's Ren & The Knights go to Ach-to to capture and or kill Luke & Rey by themselves?



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Post by Saracene on Sun 29 May 2016, 6:05 am

@Darth Dingbat wrote:@Kylo Ren: Of course I would prefer B over A, but then I'm quite biased, as that's one of my headcanons Wink I agree with you that it would cheapen Han's sacrifice if it made no real impact on Kylo, but I don't think many others agree with us...
@Darth Dingbat

Oh I expect Han's death to have a huge impact on Kylo. I just think that he'll spend quite a bit of time bottling his feelings up and trying to throw himself into the dark side. Which of course will not work in the long run.

On the subject of ears: I rather hope they keep them covered up as much as possible, honestly. They're adorable but there's something about big ears onscreen that takes me out of the movie, it's like the only thing I can see. In Casino Royale, during that scene when Bond walks out of the water, all I can think of is, my Mr Bond what big ears you have.
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Post by Reynak on Sun 29 May 2016, 7:41 am

I also agree that that mission of Kylo's ( I will finish what you started. Nothing will stand on our way. Show me the power of the darkside, again, grandfather) is meant to be crucial, it was played as if it was, and not only dramatically important but also secret. He can't share it with anyone, just like Hamlet, and he only "confides" his angst and struggles to a dead relative. He uses the word grandfather to establish his ancestry for the audience but it's also very personal. The guy is so isolated, sounds so broken and miserable that one has to wonder why he is there, why is he in a painful struggle to remain Dark, against all odds, against his family and the much easier life he'd have as his cool and admired parent's son.

Vader had a reason to become dark and it wasn't power but love, Vader fell for love and was eventually redeemed through love too, and because of it. This young man, Kylo, is obviously suffering and asking his dead grandfather to show him the power of the DS again. Why again, has Vader shown him this before then? How? Does Kylo communicate with Anakin's FG? If he does we can't forget Anakin's FG is no longer Dark because he redeemed himself. What does all this mean?

Why does Kylo need to be shown the power of the DS if he is by Snoke's side and should feel it without help? He has blood on his hands, why is it so difficult for him to resist the pull to the Light and also to see the power of the Dark?

These questions were put forward early in the movie and I don't think we should dismiss their importance. I'll feel cheated if we aren't offered answers and many people feel the same. They are important and must be linked to what happened 6 years before and to what happened that made Kylo fall after so many years resisting Snoke's pull. We have to wonder what happened there and IMO it wasn't what people in universe think. It isn't clear what happened and it is worded in an ambiguous way for a reason.  "A boy destroyed everything", this is what Han said and I always go by the movie when alternative sources contradict what we saw on screen. I don't think Ben Solo was a murderer then or it would have been said directly, they were very clear when Anakin killed the padawans, why being so evasive here?

Whatever happened brought Ben's fall and not the other way round. I think he managed to resist but something happened there that made him fall and run away to the DS where he stays by sheer will power, not becasue he wants to be there. He might also think that he belongs in the Dark and coming back is not an option. Either he can't come back or he has to stay because of this mission that seems his only goal.

Another question is what he was looking for in the Empire Archives because Luke was looking for the first jedi temple and the location might be found in the empire archives, either this or the first sith temple's location or whatever both Luke and Kylo may be searching for. Are Kylo and Luke looking for the same thing or things? Why is this so important? Is this related to Kylo's mission? They may be after the same but through different sources. Whatever it is is important, not only for Luke but also for Kylo. I don't think what he wants is power but answers related to something mystical and transcendental, because Kylo is a believer and the Force Han had always been so skeptical about is everything for his son.

All this asks for option B, C, or whatever, and I agree with @Kylo Ren that Ben Solo is as much a protagonist as Rey and even more so, because he is the plot of the ST for the reasons she has put forward. Rey's fate is tangled with his but he is the last Skywalker and this is the story of his descent and journey through Darkness that can only end with his return. His is the journey that matters and this nightmarish jouney is the core of the plot. Unless Rey finds a challenge of the same relevance, which I hope for the sake of the character and Daisy's performance, also because we all deserve a powerful, but not in a topic way, female character, Ben's character will become more important than hers.

Like @Darth Dingbat, I don't think Kylo is driven by revenge. The plot needs an excuse to make him go after Rey and confront her but I don' t think regression is necessary for his character. I think we need to see him angry though. He became a whipping boy for Rey in TFA and he must be angry due to his rejection, humiliation, beating and branding by her hand. Angry doesn't mean vengeful though, and I don't thing he was portrayed as a vindictive man. How do those guys know he wants to kill her and what's more, how do they know his motivation is revenge?

They know he will fight her, perhaps he will feel obligued or forced to kill her ( like when he killed Han) but I can't believe he'll want to kill her, especially if the reason is as poor and trite as wanting revenge because she kicked his a--. That's not the guy we saw in TFA and lack of consistency in characterization sucks. The plot is terribly important but this movie made us expect convincing characterization and AD himself said his conversations with JJ were character centered and they didn't have the scrip yet.

I also think that each movie needs to be complete in itself even if it's part of a trilogy because it can't be essential to have seen TFA to understand E Vlll. This may explain why we will have another duel beteween him and Rey that would have looked totally regressive, redundant and unimaginative if there was only one movie.


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Post by Reynak on Sun 29 May 2016, 8:53 am

@spacebaby45678 wrote:
@Kylo Ren wrote:@spacebaby45678
Ain't this scary...how we are all so much alike on this forum? Thinking of the same things at the same time?
I love it!!!
@Kylo Ren

Do I get my outsider credentials now? Smile   Yeah, and AD does not need to take the Kylo mask off to make that character sexy, he has an AMAZING walk...

@spacebaby45678

So true, with that voice, that body language, his height and the way he walks he would have appeared amazingly sexy without even unmasking and showing his face. But I love his face too, what's not to like about him?

The magic is in Adam's incredible performance, the depth, vulnerabiliy and intensity he conveys too. This isn't just a hot guy but an amazing character that also looks damn fine in his unique way.
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Post by vaderito on Sun 29 May 2016, 10:25 am

yeah, Rey is a POV character so how Kylo goes from Dark to Dark and Light (I really hope he keeps both sides) will be told from her perspective. So when signs become visible to her they'll be visible to all audience (means that it won't be just micro expressions that'll show the change).
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Post by Reynak on Sun 29 May 2016, 10:39 am

What worries me is that there's a risk for her character to become just the eyes through which we'll see how everything happens, including Kylo's journey through hell and eventually towards redeption. She wasn't given much character development or a clear trajectory in TFA If she becomes only the POV through which we get to know what happens it will be a terrible waste of a character. She needs her own path and struggles to become a worthy protagonist.
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Post by vaderito on Sun 29 May 2016, 10:50 am

@Reynak wrote:What worries me is that there's a risk for her character to become just the eyes through which we'll see how everything happens, including Kylo's journey through hell and eventually towards redeption. She wasn't given much character development or a clear trajectory in TFA If she becomes only the POV through which we get to know what happens it will be a terrible waste of a character. She needs her own path and struggles to become a worthy protagonist.
@Reynak

Main protagonist usually isn't the most interesting character. That's something every writer will tell you, because there's limit to what one can do with such character. They are mainly stock characters. Heroine will never do something that'll make us question that status. So all the talk about Dark!Rey or whatever is empty talk. She may be tempted but she won't fully cross to deserve Dark prefix. However, such characters work the best when they bounce off colorful characters who can go either way and therefore provide some suspense and take the main protagonist to the edge. That's why many fans felt that Rey works the best in scenes with Kylo where she isn't a cinnamon roll (unlike her scenes with Finn and Han).

It sounds like Luke will also play the right kind of a foil for her. And than Kylo comes to Ahch-to so she'll be in the company of 2 characters who will challenge her and push her to the limit, something she didn't get in VII until scenes with Kylo.
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Post by MeadowofAshes on Sun 29 May 2016, 10:56 am

@Reynak wrote:What worries me is that there's a risk for her character to become just the eyes through which we'll see how everything happens, including Kylo's journey through hell and eventually towards redeption. She wasn't given much character development or a clear trajectory in TFA If she becomes only the POV through which we get to know what happens it will be a terrible waste of a character. She needs her own path and struggles to become a worthy protagonist.
@Reynak

IMHO she already isn't just the eyes through which we see the story any more than Luke Skywalker was just the eyes through which Anakin's redemption was experienced. We were presented her motivation during TFA. She longs for family/belonging because that is what she was missing on Jakku. I don't think her goal will change, just the means to the end. She'll come to see that Skywalker family (**cough cough** that she'll eventually marry into **cough cough**) plus her best friends Finn and Chewbacca (I guess Chewie's technically part of the family too though, right? Very Happy) are the belonging she seeks.

Just as a quick comparison:
Luke
Initial goals: Leave Tattooine for adventure and excitement. Rescue the princess.
Refusal to leave: Afraid to undertake his calling, Luke makes an excuse about being needed at home.
Motivating factor: Family on Tattooine destroyed. Forced onto Hero's Journey.
Goal shift: Occurs when father is revealed as Darth Vader. Continues his adventure in a different manner by seeking to bring his father back to the Light.

Rey
Initial goal: Find her family.
Refusal to leave: Insists she needs to stay on/get back to Jakku for family. Refuses the call of the Skywalker lightsaber.
Motivating factors: Droid needs to be delivered to Rebellion. Skywalker lightsaber calls to her. Finally takes up the call to the Heroine's Journey in defense of her friend against Kylo Ren by calling the Skywalker lightsaber to her.
Goal Shift: (prediction) Will occur when Rey develops compassion for Ben Solo and assists in his journey back to the Light.
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Post by nonesuch on Sun 29 May 2016, 10:58 am

@Reynak wrote:What worries me is that there's a risk for her character to become just the eyes through which we'll see how everything happens, including Kylo's journey through hell and eventually towards redeption. She wasn't given much character development or a clear trajectory in TFA If she becomes only the POV through which we get to know what happens it will be a terrible waste of a character. She needs her own path and struggles to become a worthy protagonist.
@Reynak

I think Rey had a lot of character development and purpose in TFA, and the sequel trilogy is unquestionably her story, imo. The story of The Force Awakens is the story of Rey progressing from the petrified childhood state that kept her chained to Jakku, blossoming into a hero who can put aside her feelings of loss and abandonment in order to resist evil and fight back for the good of her friends first and the galaxy second. It's a great hero's journey and I fully expect VIII and IX to continue it.

And I'll say that while I love Kylo and think he's a brilliantly acted and nuanced character, I do think people here tend to place all of the emphasis and importance on Kylo's journey at the expense of Rey's. Kylo is absolutely on a journey, but his journey should be secondary (or at most complementary) to Rey's. That TFA is about a female hero is precisely what makes it so exciting and distinctive, and that shouldn't be sacrificed for the sake of shifting all of the emphasis to Kylo.
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Post by FrolickingFizzgig on Sun 29 May 2016, 11:22 am

@Reynak wrote:What worries me is that there's a risk for her character to become just the eyes through which we'll see how everything happens, including Kylo's journey through hell and eventually towards redeption. She wasn't given much character development or a clear trajectory in TFA If she becomes only the POV through which we get to know what happens it will be a terrible waste of a character. She needs her own path and struggles to become a worthy protagonist.
@Reynak
This is something I am expecting to a certain extent. In character-rich family narratives like this it is rare for protagonists to be the most developed, nuanced or interesting players because that just isn't their purpose. Then there's the fact that Rey's development isn't going to really start until she begins to confront the demons of her past. Kylo is one of her biggest obstacles, but then there's the whole mystery behind her origins that might or might not be entirely her own.

Interestingly I recently found a small interview where Daisy compares Rey to Matilda, the classic story of a special girl who comes from nothing and who finds family in unrelated individuals.

@Nonesuch
Agreed. Rey definitely had appropriate development in TFA. We couldn't have expected more when even Rey doesn't yet know where she'll encounter her greatest obstacles.
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Post by vaderito on Sun 29 May 2016, 11:26 am

@nonesuch wrote:
@Reynak wrote:What worries me is that there's a risk for her character to become just the eyes through which we'll see how everything happens, including Kylo's journey through hell and eventually towards redeption. She wasn't given much character development or a clear trajectory in TFA If she becomes only the POV through which we get to know what happens it will be a terrible waste of a character. She needs her own path and struggles to become a worthy protagonist.
@Reynak

I think Rey had a lot of character development and purpose in TFA, and the sequel trilogy is unquestionably her story, imo. The story of The Force Awakens is the story of Rey progressing from the petrified childhood state that kept her chained to Jakku, blossoming into a hero who can put aside her feelings of loss and abandonment in order to resist evil and fight back for the good of her friends first and the galaxy second. It's a great hero's journey and I fully expect VIII and IX to continue it.

And I'll say that while I love Kylo and think he's a brilliantly acted and nuanced character, I do think people here tend to place all of the emphasis and importance on Kylo's journey at the expense of Rey's. Kylo is absolutely on a journey, but his journey should be secondary (or at most complementary) to Rey's. That TFA is about a female hero is precisely what makes it so exciting and distinctive, and that shouldn't be sacrificed for the sake of shifting all of the emphasis to Kylo.
@nonesuch

It's her journey and his journey is complimentary but people here find his complimentary journey more exciting and that is true of everyone. Focus on Rey parentage instead of her is because people don't have much to say about her character, so they shift conversation onto who her parent might be (aka a character that actually generates discussion). Don't get me wrong, she's likable and inspirational but that isn't good characterization by any means. They made her into OT Characters Greatest Hits in that she could do everything OT characters were famous for - fly like Han, mind trick like Ob1, Force sensitive like Luke, resilient to torture like Leia, speaks Wookie like Han and OB1, speaks binary like OB1 and later Luke, etc. All those OMG amazing things were never given to one character in OT but spread out onto several. Which is why those characters were relatable. Rey isn't relatable. She's a wish-fulfillment of the highest order. Gets Falcon, gets Luke's saber, Han likes her like a father, leia hugs her like a mother, Luke will train her, Prince Ben falls in love with her, everyone loves her 3 seconds after meeting her and Prince Ben loves her even before meeting her. You can't really have a long and thoughtful discussion about that. She's the main heroine but the most flawed character will always generate most talk.
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