Snoke in Episodes VIII

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Re: Snoke in Episodes VIII

Post by reylo1992 on Wed 29 Nov 2017, 1:19 pm

All these information convince me more and more about what I've been thinking within the last weeks/months about Snoke. He is the big villain of the ST. There is no bigger fish. He has a huge agenda to fulfill and he has been using Kylo for this purpose from the very beginning. And IMO he will achieve it in TLJ no matter how one will try to stop him. No way they make him die or defeated that easily during the Supremacy arc, just fleeing like a coward after the crash of his ship. And it's really stricking how Andy Serkis keeps insisting he is incredibly damaged and yet so strong. And they way he is saying how dark Snoke is in comparison to Palpatine freezes my bones because if knowing what Palpatine did to Anakin I ask what Snoke will do to Kylo to fulfill his evil purpose
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Re: Snoke in Episodes VIII

Post by Maria Antonietta on Wed 29 Nov 2017, 3:21 pm

@Forsythia wrote:Empire released a new picture of Snoke:



He looks creepy...

Andy Serkis talked a bit about Snoke:
"Snoke is bloody dark; way darker than Palpatine,” Andy Serkis tells us in the new issue of Empire. “He’s riddled with this osteoporosis so his body's twisted, like a corkscrew. He's incredibly damaged, so there's a bizarre vulnerability about him. Beneath that vulnerability, though, is this intense hatred."

"He’s definitely not a Sith, but he’s certainly at the darker end of the Force. Without giving too much away, that begins to unfold a little in this one."

(Source)
@Forsythia

I DON'T WANT TO SEE THIS SITH IN 3D WTF pale
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Re: Snoke in Episodes VIII

Post by MrsWindu on Wed 29 Nov 2017, 4:08 pm

@Maria Antonietta wrote:
@Forsythia wrote:Empire released a new picture of Snoke:



He looks creepy...

Andy Serkis talked a bit about Snoke:
"Snoke is bloody dark; way darker than Palpatine,” Andy Serkis tells us in the new issue of Empire. “He’s riddled with this osteoporosis so his body's twisted, like a corkscrew. He's incredibly damaged, so there's a bizarre vulnerability about him. Beneath that vulnerability, though, is this intense hatred."

"He’s definitely not a Sith, but he’s certainly at the darker end of the Force. Without giving too much away, that begins to unfold a little in this one."

(Source)
@Forsythia

I DON'T WANT TO SEE THIS SITH IN 3D WTF pale
@Maria Antonietta

OH man - I've only just noticed the eyebrows...to complete the general menacing overtones.
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Re: Snoke in Episodes VIII

Post by Geralt_Riv on Wed 29 Nov 2017, 4:11 pm

@Maria Antonietta wrote:
@Forsythia wrote:Empire released a new picture of Snoke:



He looks creepy...

Andy Serkis talked a bit about Snoke:
"Snoke is bloody dark; way darker than Palpatine,” Andy Serkis tells us in the new issue of Empire. “He’s riddled with this osteoporosis so his body's twisted, like a corkscrew. He's incredibly damaged, so there's a bizarre vulnerability about him. Beneath that vulnerability, though, is this intense hatred."

"He’s definitely not a Sith, but he’s certainly at the darker end of the Force. Without giving too much away, that begins to unfold a little in this one."

(Source)
@Forsythia

I DON'T WANT TO SEE THIS SITH IN 3D WTF pale
@Maria Antonietta

So watch the movie in 2D first. Smile

I will watch it only in 2D. I am not a fan of 3D. Laughing
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Re: Snoke in Episodes VIII

Post by Forsythia on Wed 29 Nov 2017, 5:31 pm

@Maria Antonietta wrote:
@Forsythia wrote:Empire released a new picture of Snoke:



He looks creepy...

Andy Serkis talked a bit about Snoke:
"Snoke is bloody dark; way darker than Palpatine,” Andy Serkis tells us in the new issue of Empire. “He’s riddled with this osteoporosis so his body's twisted, like a corkscrew. He's incredibly damaged, so there's a bizarre vulnerability about him. Beneath that vulnerability, though, is this intense hatred."

"He’s definitely not a Sith, but he’s certainly at the darker end of the Force. Without giving too much away, that begins to unfold a little in this one."

(Source)
@Forsythia

I DON'T WANT TO SEE THIS SITH IN 3D WTF pale
@Maria Antonietta

I hadn't even thought of that! Unfortunately, I have to watch it in 3D the first time because the cinema doesn't offer the English version in 2D (and obviously I wanted to hear Adam's beautiful voice, so I had to pick 3D). Now I'm scared of Snoke's 3D head.
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Re: Snoke in Episodes VIII

Post by lauvamp on Wed 29 Nov 2017, 5:47 pm

My poor eyes, gonna watch this ugly head in 3D Laughing sooooo scary!
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Re: Snoke in Episodes VIII

Post by snufkin on Wed 29 Nov 2017, 5:59 pm

Ugh, although I'm still kinda intrigued by the idea that some fans came up with, that he could've been like a younger version of Terrance Stamp.

Otherwise, I'll admit this fits with my initial conclusions after seeing TFA - that Snoke is playing a personal long game which manipulating both the political/military side (Hux and the FO being Imperial remnants) and the Force side (Ben's raw powah and connections to the spiritual/political power his family has amassed) for an agenda that's all his. It's also why I've struggled with all the idea that Luke has any connection to whatever happened to Rey and her family. Which isn't to say that they won't go there. Just that if you want to set somebody up as the central antagonist to the heroine, having Snoke as the Big Bad whose evil agenda (curse in fairy tale terms) ruined her life, probably killed her parents, and has trapped this handsome young prince who she has this weird kindred spirit connection with seems like the way to go. Both for her motivation and for Kylo's - she saves him from Snoke because she couldn't save her parents and he in turn protects/helps her because the relationship with her finally shows him that there is a hope for a way out of the trap he's been in. Or more fairy tale terminology, only Rey can break the curse Snoke has the young prince and the rest of the kingdom under.

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Re: Snoke in Episodes VIII

Post by Irina de France on Wed 29 Nov 2017, 7:05 pm

I need eye bleach.

Seriously, the more I hear or see new stuff about Snoke, the more I feel sick about the fact he's been preying on Ben since he's a baby. pale

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Re: Snoke in Episodes VIII

Post by reylo1992 on Wed 29 Nov 2017, 7:22 pm

@snufkin wrote:Ugh, although I'm still kinda intrigued by the idea that some fans came up with, that he could've been like a younger version of Terrance Stamp.

Otherwise, I'll admit this fits with my initial conclusions after seeing TFA - that Snoke is playing a personal long game which manipulating both the political/military side (Hux and the FO being Imperial remnants) and the Force side (Ben's raw powah and connections to the spiritual/political power his family has amassed) for an agenda that's all his. It's also why I've struggled with all the idea that Luke has any connection to whatever happened to Rey and her family. Which isn't to say that they won't go there. Just that if you want to set somebody up as the central antagonist to the heroine, having Snoke as the Big Bad whose evil agenda (curse in fairy tale terms) ruined her life, probably killed her parents, and has trapped this handsome young prince who she has this weird kindred spirit connection with seems like the way to go. Both for her motivation and for Kylo's - she saves him from Snoke because she couldn't save her parents and he in turn protects/helps her because the relationship with her finally shows him that there is a hope for a way out of the trap he's been in. Or more fairy tale terminology, only Rey can break the curse Snoke has the young prince and the rest of the kingdom under.


I think you're onto something there. Rey hasn't met Snoke yet nor heard about him: that's why she sees Kylo as the monster for now. The only thing Rey really want to is belonging: she is not really interested in the Resistance. The only thing she ever craved was to be reunited with her family. So if Snoke is really the Big Bad, then it makes sense that he is responsible for her parent's death, the lost of her belonging behind. And if this is the case, that would give her a very good reason to go after Snoke to save her belonging ahead. Maybe that her parents dies protecting her against Snoke who was after her for her raw power and the fact that she was protected from him made Ben Snoke's only target. Snoke and her were clearly set up as rivals competing for Kylo's allegiance in TFA both visually but also in regard to the compassion's dialogue. So if the main "antagonistic" relationship is between Snoke and Rey, then Kylo is surely the heart of the conflict and power struggle between them. In other words, Kylo Ren is what Rey could lose to Snoke in TLJ, becoming the Prince(ss) that must be saved from the evil dragon. If we consider the fact thatTLJ is supposed to be the lowespt point of the ST, it could make sense to have have Rey getting the confirmation that she definitely lose her belonging behind because of Snoke and that she loses her belonging ahead to him in the process. Then the idea of romantic drama with no romance happening by the end of TLJ kinda fits in this scheme.
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Re: Snoke in Episodes VIII

Post by snufkin on Wed 29 Nov 2017, 7:35 pm

@reylo1992 - It has to be one of the scenarios they considered, because of the underlying logic of tying their motivations together and making it personal beyond just their ties to the past and saving the day. I may be wrong because I figured what happened with Rey's abandonment was 100% the scenario they showed in the opening of R1 for what happened to Jyn's family*. So they can't be *that* lazy. Especially when there's already been some similarity in both the character's being the tough lone girl played by a young brunette British actress and the "it's a re-hash" accusations (you'd think). But it just seems really plausible, especially now that Daisy has actually said in print what I always thought was Rey's driving motivation with getting involved, doing for others (saving them & taking them home to where they belong) what nobody ever did for her after she was left on Jakku. Like it seems pretty obvious that the overt mission is about getting Leia her brother back but what we know what Leia really wants is to get her son back. Which is why it's critical that Rey is sent to Ache-to. And it a fairy tale and we know that there's always one about the stolen child whose Princess/Queen mother needs help with breaking the curse a jealous supernatural force has cast over the kingdom.

* This is why I'll be really shocked if it turns out that Rey was abandoned, because that was a big underlying part of Jyn being introduced as cynical and a loner thanks to Saw abandoning her when he thought it was too dangerous for her to stay with him given her real identity. It's also supposed to be part of why he sacrifices himself to save her and Cassian.
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Re: Snoke in Episodes VIII

Post by DeeBee on Tue 10 Apr 2018, 1:38 am

Hiya, now that TLJ is out.. and we know Snoke has been chopped in half, I'm still curious about him. It's really interesting to go back over this thread - to a time where we had no clue Snoke wouldn't be around for episode IX!
It seems so much of his story has been left untold at the end of TLJ, because.. surprise surprise- it turns out the ST is not Snoke's story, it's Rey and Kylo's... which I'm fine with Smile
Still, I'm curious about what Snoke was up to.. We may learn more about Snoke as we learn more about his meddling in the Skywalker family in IX as the Kylo/Ben story comes to it's happy ending (ha)... But either way, I think we will be seeing more supplementary stuff on Snoke – books or comics.. or who knows we could even see Snoke make an appearance in RJ’s trilogy – he is so old he could pop up anywhere!
There was a discussion about Snoke recently in the general discussion thread.. I'll just quote one or two comments here and respond..
[http://www.reyloskyforum.net/t787p200-the-last-jedi-general-discussion]

@nickandnora wrote:
@BB-Rey wrote: That's possible but I don't know. I don't think things are as clear cut with Snoke. Especially as he warned Kylo that his equal in the Light would appear. Why would this matter or be of interest to Snoke? I think he wants both of them for a reason. Same with why he said a couple things of note to Kylo from both The Last Jedi and The Force Awakens novel.

" When I found you I saw raw, untamed power and beyond that something truly special."

“ It is where you are from. What you are made of. The Dark Side and the Light. The finest sculptor cannot fashion a masterpiece from poor materials. He must have something pure, something strong, something unbreakable, with which to work.”

Why is this important? Could Snoke have been or be seeking immorality? I find there's much more than meets the eye with him.
@BB-Rey

What I bolded is such a great quote, but it's odd because I feel like it doesn't fit in with Snoke's MO. I can buy the theory that he was seeking immortality and that Ben Solo was his vessel, but the above quote makes it sound like he wants him because he's perfectly balanced, while the Snoke we see onscreen seems to want to simply turn him into something purely dark.

Could be that they toyed around with showing Snoke's ambiguity in this sequel trilogy and then decided, "Nah, too much for these films" and decided to explore Snoke's life goals and philosophy in another spin-off series or whatever.
@nickandnora
@BB-Rey


Hi BB-Rey and Nickandnora! This is really interesting! So true - Snoke is not clear cut!!!
I am not sure what was Snoke's plan! Have you read TLJ novelisation?  I'm starting on it and trying to keep an eye out for anything related to this. I've been listening to the audiobook on my commute and have recently gotten hold of the hard copy..
It does seem like most baddies are from the 'I want more power!' or 'I want to live forever!' club. lol.
So the I want to be immortal motive is definitely a possibility.
In a SW mood but needing a break from TLJ recently, I started reading the Dr. Aphra comics [which are canon] - have you read them? Included is the story of an ancient jedi sect [The Ordu Aspectu] whose leader was obsessed with becoming immortal. Umm should I spoil?!
Anyway, what was Snoke's design?! It's still not clear to me..but I think there are loads of interesting clues that could be fun to put all together if I had the time. lol. I have enough time to skim the surface I think..

In the expanded TLJ novel, the first 3 pages of chapter 25 (pages 216-218) are all written from Snoke's POV. It refers to great truths that awaited rediscovery in the unknown regions. Wow. so cool. this would be so fun to explore!
On page 218 of the expanded novel it says Snoke saw Luke as endangering his design - after describing how Luke had 'sought to understand the origins of the (Jedi) faith, and the larger truths behind it.' Thus, it had become essential to Snoke that he act to stop Luke. Part of how Snoke did this was to work to get Luke to rebuild the Jedi order. Wow...
I think it is instructive that understanding of the larger truths behind the Jedi faith and not rebuilding the Jedi was dangerous to Snoke and his designs. Where as rebuilding the Jedi order was not a threat and worked toward Snoke's own ends. Just what are these larger truths that would have gotten in the way of Snoke's plans?.. the need for balance maybe?

I agree that Snoke doesn't completely dismiss the light - He is very different to the Sith!
Yeah Snoke valued that Kylo was both light and dark. This has confused me a lot!
Snoke's actions all seemed to be directed toward snuffing out the light that was in Kylo.
These two aspects of Snoke seem contradictory...
I really wasn't sure what to make of it - so I held these two facts as true at the same time, and filed it in the one day to be revealed folder.. lol.. I think thanks to the novelisation, I may be starting to make sense of this seeming contradiction. Or I may be way off track, but worth a try!

I've found a few interesting passages relating to this light/dark stuff. On page 218 Snoke admires Rey's strength... it says
"To his delight he found Rey strong - even more powerful than he'd imagined. Strong with the force, and with the kind of towering will that made her able to command it. She would have made a fitting instrument for Snoke - if he'd still had need of such crude tools.'
This is right before he launches into his darkness rises and light to meet it speech..
Then on page 234 Snoke thinks (right after Rey fights against him and he notes her 'spunk'):
"It was too bad, really. The girl's power could have been catalyzed by hatred and fear, forging her into a potential weapon. In another era, she would have made someone a superb apprentice."  There are more references to Snoke's regret but that's enough..
-I figure this means Snoke would have been open to taking Rey on as an apprentice given different circumstances, because she was strong -her light doesn't seem to rule it out for him. This suggests - he is not anti the light, he could have worked with her just fine.

Further along in the throne room (page 222) Snoke's thoughts about Kylo/Ben:
"He called himself Kylo Ren, but as with so much else about him, that was more wish fulfillment than reality. He had never escaped being Ben Solo, or learned to resist the pull of the weak and pathetic light, or had the strength to excise the sentimental streak that had destroyed his legendary grandfather. And then there was his most glaring failure of all: his inability or unwillingness to use his power to redirect the course of his own destiny.
Snoke had once seen Kylo as the perfect student - a creation of both dark and light, with the strength of both aspects of the Force. But perhaps he had been wrong about that. Perhaps Kylo was an unstable combination of those aspects' weaknesses - a flawed vessel that could never be filled."
Now this really caught my attention! What's interesting here is that Snoke thinks about the weak and pathetic light, the strength of both the light and the dark, and the weaknesses of both aspects- all at the same time.
I'm thinking Snoke views a combination of both light and dark as ideal. However, this is only ideal when it is a combination of what Snoke sees as the strong aspects of the light and the strong aspects of the dark. He sees the weak aspects of either side as needing to be gotten rid of. Noooow this starts to make some sense to me.

Overall the story of the force in the ST seems to be heading toward a view that neither the light nor the dark are in and of themselves bad - they are both part of the force and both will always exist. The Jedi order/ Sith extremes are being done away with. In a way, Snoke is also thinking along the same lines, which is a real surprise to me! Snoke also believed neither the light nor the dark were bad - but his slant on this was that each side had weaknesses and strengths. This is why he loved what he saw in Kylo/Ben who was made of both dark and light- why he was trying to destroy the sentimentality but he was not anti the light side.

Though, I do think the combination Snoke is idealising tends more toward the dark than the light - as otherwise why would Kylo's darkness be growing and Rey's light be growing to counter it? (as Snoke says).

The questions around warning Kylo of his equal in the light...??? Hmm I still ponder this one too.. Anyone else have thoughts about this?
Snoke seems to have been viewing Kylo's equal in the light as a threat - but that was in the context of that equal being Luke Skywalker- the last jedi. Snoke does say if the Jedi exist Hope continues to exist.
Snoke berates Kylo (page 67) saying:
"Skywalker lives!"...." The seed of the Jedi Order lives! As long as it does, hope lives in the galaxy!"... "I thought you would be the one to snuff it out."
... you get the picture.. For whatever reason, Snoke wants all hope to be dead in the galaxy! he wants the resistance dead. the last jedi dead. Hope dead. lol.
Did he consider Rey as Kylo's equal in the light a threat? I'm not sure.. I'll need to come back to this another day I've used up all my SW time I'm afraid! Byeeee!!!
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Re: Snoke in Episodes VIII

Post by nickandnora on Wed 11 Apr 2018, 11:42 am

Maybe originally Snoke was someone who thought that balance meant equal parts light and dark and was trying to attain that for himself (hence his interest Ben), but that reasoning is ultimately faulty since balance probably means something more like "Mostly light, but acknowledging that everyone has a bit of darkness in him/her, and finding ways to come to terms with it and contain it." But maybe that flawed thesis is what corrupted him (Snoke) originally.

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Re: Snoke in Episodes VIII

Post by DeeBee on Thu 12 Apr 2018, 6:21 pm

@nickandnora wrote:Maybe originally Snoke was someone who thought that balance meant equal parts light and dark and was trying to attain that for himself (hence his interest Ben), but that reasoning is ultimately faulty since balance probably means something more like "Mostly light, but acknowledging that everyone has a bit of darkness in him/her, and finding ways to come to terms with it and contain it." But maybe that flawed thesis is what corrupted him (Snoke) originally.
@nickandnora

Hiya nickandnora! Yeah I played around with this idea for a while too - glad to read it's not just me! Smile
Does 'balance' (as the force would define it) mean equal parts dark and light? Or could it be 80/20 light to dark?! lol.
At this point, conclusion I've drawn is that it's 50/50 - because of the visual imagery that is floating around with the Jedi prime and with the yin/yang - they all have half and half representations.
Also, the whole concept of darkness rises and light to meet it - and Rey and Kylo being equals- implies equal parts light and dark is balance.
With all this in mind, yes I'm guessing Snoke's understanding was off - he was right in understanding you can't remove the light - but he was wrong in idealizing it's minimization. maybe. lol. Fun to ponder!

Now this is weird. I have a notification that BB-Rey tagged me in this thread - but I see nothing from BB-Rey. Did you delete a comment maybe BB-Rey?
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Re: Snoke in Episodes VIII

Post by DeeBee on Thu 03 May 2018, 11:20 pm

Hi all,
For anyone interested.. it looks like the main Snoke page summary on the starwars databank has been updated.. 2 added sentences..
I'm looking forward to reading what detail they give about later in TLJ.. but encouraging to see they are slowly starting to update with TLJ content!
This was the previous version of the main blurb's text:

Here's the new version:
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Re: Snoke in Episodes VIII

Post by californiagirl on Thu 03 May 2018, 11:44 pm

Do you think the whole supposed Snoke mind-bond thing ever be addressed again? Something major goes down in the interrogation scene to merge their skills/memories, and Snoke doesn't know about Rey until Kylo tells him afterwards, so it's not him doing it. Unless he's bluffing.

Did he somehow not pick up on what had passed between them, what might still be connecting them, when he does whatever it is he does that creates the force-bonding sessions? I mean, he doesn't pick up what's in Kylo's head when he's about to get murdered. But he legitimately believes he bonded the two of them. Maybe he's just giving himself too much credit, but I've seen some questioning of how the bond happened if Snoke had no clue where Rey was. Did he sense her through Kylo? Are we not supposed to question this?

I don't normally get caught up in the minutia, but it seems relevant given that it's a pretty major component of Rey and Kylo's relationship.

Even though the bond is still present at the end of TLJ, much of the audience is going to believe this whole thing was Snoke's doing unless it is overtly stated otherwise in IX.
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Re: Snoke in Episodes VIII

Post by SoloSideCousin on Fri 04 May 2018, 10:21 am

@DeeBee wrote:Hi all,
For anyone interested.. it looks like the main Snoke page summary on the starwars databank has been updated.. 2 added sentences..
I'm looking forward to reading what detail they give about later in TLJ.. but encouraging to see they are slowly starting to update with TLJ content!
This was the previous version of the main blurb's text:

Here's the new version:
@DeeBee

You know what I notice about this addition? There is no reference to Kylo Ren. It's "Ben and Rey" and "Ben cleaved him". The latter is particularly telling.
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Re: Snoke in Episodes VIII

Post by rawpowah on Fri 04 May 2018, 10:31 am

So I guess it's officially confirmed that Snoke is responsible for the Force bond. I thought it would have been formed in the interrogation scene. Sad I hope JJ doesn't abandon the force bond because of this, and view it just as a plot element for TLJ. It was still active when Snoke died.

I like the repeated mentions of Ben instead of Kylo.
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Re: Snoke in Episodes VIII

Post by californiagirl on Fri 04 May 2018, 11:15 am

@rawpowah It was in the novel too, but Snoke thinks he knows more, and can do more, than he actually does. Like he thinks he can see Ben's every thought, when obviously he can't.
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Re: Snoke in Episodes VIII

Post by rawpowah on Fri 04 May 2018, 11:22 am

@californiagirl Sure but novels can have unreliable narrators, whereas this is a databank entry (an official and objective source that summarizes the events in the movie). If these were Snoke's impressions, then the databank would have imo stated that this is what he thought.
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Re: Snoke in Episodes VIII

Post by californiagirl on Fri 04 May 2018, 12:03 pm

@rawpowah Even so, the databank only has information that LF wants you to know at the given moment. They only reveal information gradually. The stuff they have about Kylo and Rey feeling a connection on Takodana, SKB, etc. was only added long after TFA came out. It's still more subjective than they want you to think it is. Regardless of what happened, Snoke was way out his league when it came to influencing Reylo!
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Re: Snoke in Episodes VIII

Post by SoloSideCousin on Fri 04 May 2018, 7:06 pm

@californiagirl wrote:@rawpowah Even so, the databank only has information that LF wants you to know at the given moment. They only reveal information gradually. The stuff they have about Kylo and Rey feeling a connection on Takodana, SKB, etc. was only added long after TFA came out. It's still more subjective than they want you to think it is. Regardless of what happened, Snoke was way out his league when it came to influencing Reylo!
@californiagirl

I agree. The whole Reylo concept seemed pretty nonexistent and Kylo looked pretty bad for months after TFA when you read the databank ... but then they started slowly adding more and more wonderfulness. And even then, no way could we have predicted the wonderful Reylo scenes and the Ben revelations that we got.
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Re: Snoke in Episodes VIII

Post by snufkin on Fri 04 May 2018, 7:38 pm

All it says it that he connected them as a gambit to take out Luke and Rey and it backfired. Rayne Roberts is on record on official Lucasfilm state media that the connection started in the Interogation and it was Kasdan’s idea. Databank is just updating his profile with that plot point. But he never created it and obviously, they can still connect with each other after he’s dead.

Also like @SoloSideCousin says, they make multiple references to Ben, not Kylo. That’s what’s interesting here.


Last edited by snufkin on Fri 04 May 2018, 10:21 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Snoke in Episodes VIII

Post by californiagirl on Fri 04 May 2018, 8:27 pm

I guess it's my larger neverending frustration with all the good bits about Reylo and the ST in general existing largely outside the movies, or are so briefly, vaguely, or subtextually alluded to that most of the audience doesn't actually know what's happening.
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Re: Snoke in Episodes VIII

Post by Saracene on Fri 04 May 2018, 9:02 pm

@rawpowah wrote:So I guess it's officially confirmed that Snoke is responsible for the Force bond. I thought it would have been formed in the interrogation scene. Sad I hope JJ doesn't abandon the force bond because of this, and view it just as a plot element for TLJ. It was still active when Snoke died.

I like the repeated mentions of Ben instead of Kylo.
@rawpowah

I'd think it's too convenient to abandon, it's a great device to link the characters who are difficult to put in the same scene otherwise. I'd expect at least one ForceSkype scene in Episode IX (Leia's funeral?).

The whole thing never made much sense to me though. Like, Snoke is so powerful he can reach across the galaxy to link Rey's mind with Kylo's, but he can't get her location at the same time, and instead has to rummage in her head while Rey is in the same room with him? I guess file this under "don't think too hard about SW science".
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Re: Snoke in Episodes VIII

Post by DeeBee on Fri 04 May 2018, 9:40 pm

@SoloSideCousin @rawpowah @snufkin @californiagirl  
Hi all! I recently put together my thoughts on the general discussion thread(link) about Snoke being responsible for bridging their minds, as @followmylead-kylodriver (Hi!) asked this very question!
@DeeBee wrote: ...My current thinking is: judging by Snoke’s POV revealed in TLJ novelisation, Snoke genuinely believes he has bridged their minds and that it is all his own doing. I.e. without him they would not have formed this connection. I believe this is some hubris on Snoke’s part, but it shows Snoke was not ‘lying’. He was just over estimating what he was responsible for. The star wars databank confirms Snoke was manipulating the connection that was growing stronger here:

-I do love this pic! lol.

Some believe the bond formed or their minds were bridged during the interrogation. I tend be less clearly defined than that.. the bond over time has likely changed in quality and intensity - that would be hard to pin down.. But I think a 'connection' was there before the interrogation and Snoke, because Kylo/Ben was already sensing a ‘strange connection’ with Rey when he first spotted her on Takodana. I figure it's why he took her (maybe JJ said that on the commentary too? not sure..). This 'connection' is mentioned on the star wars databank here:

and there is the moment in the force vision when Rey sees Kylo and Kylo seems to see Rey in her vision – this is before they met.

2 ideas that are maybe a little vague but I think feed into this existing connection:
-Kylo's pretty intense 'What girl?!' suggests he had a knowledge of a girl that was somehow important..
-I think their connection is also tied to the awakening of the force that takes place during TFA... and Snoke and Kylo both sensed the awakening before Kylo and Rey meet on Takodana.

Anyway, I tend to think there was already a connection, the connection changed in quality and strength, and was maybe fully awakened when the force was awakened – then Snoke comes along and boosts the signal or adds a quality to it. Does that work? Or is there something I’m not seeing here in all this?

In the earlier discussion @Snufkin suggested that Snoke boosted the signal in their connection. I really liked this idea!

Adding this new databank content into the mix.. we have another source confirming Snoke bridged their minds. This is not the first time this was mentioned on the databank though, and I don't think this changes anything in my understanding at this time..
Based on what I've seen and read at this point: Snoke bridged their minds.. AND they already had a connection. They are both true.

I see the star wars databank as an authority - but one which needs to be interpreted within a context that changes. What is on starwars.com is canon - but as SoloSideCousin wisely points out - the content gets updated and changes as the story unfolds.

One of the things that I love about SW is that it is rich content.. with multiple sources and points of view - and this story is still in flux..
I've seen the databank can present a different perspective on something -  in different databank locations. Example - on the Leia thread the other day I shared two different databank entries about force ghosts and Anakin. (LINK) they were different - but together they provided a better understanding. (at least I think so. haaa).

@californiagirl wrote:Do you think the whole supposed Snoke mind-bond thing ever be addressed again? Something major goes down in the interrogation scene to merge their skills/memories, and Snoke doesn't know about Rey until Kylo tells him afterwards, so it's not him doing it. Unless he's bluffing.
@californiagirl
I hope it will be addressed californiagirl, but I'm learning never to have an expectation! lol. Because SW is a wide universe of content, it could addressed somewhere eventally.
I'm curious - what would you like to see addressed about this in IX?
Why do you think the merging of skills/memories needs to be elaborated on? Can we understand the story at this point without this elaboration?
I find the ST is short on force lore and political context and am at times frustrated by this, I may need to look to wider SW content for this..

@californiagirl wrote: Did he somehow not pick up on what had passed between them, what might still be connecting them, when he does whatever it is he does that creates the force-bonding sessions? I mean, he doesn't pick up what's in Kylo's head when he's about to get murdered. But he legitimately believes he bonded the two of them. Maybe he's just giving himself too much credit, but I've seen some questioning of how the bond happened if Snoke had no clue where Rey was. Did he sense her through Kylo? Are we not supposed to question this?
@californiagirl
-you ask great questions!  Very Happy
At this point in time, based on what I've seen so far.. Yeah Snoke believed he created the bond between them. And I think he did. But there was also already a bond there too. lol.
Snoke was not wrong, but he didn't see the complete picture. Some Snoke hubris here!
How could Snoke have bridged their minds when he didn't know where Rey was? we don't have the answer to this.. and I would love to see this addressed - but don't have high hopes it will be in IX. lol.
My guess is that because Rey and Kylo already had a connection - Snoke was able to use the existing connection, boost the signal, and add a new dimension to that connection - where he bridged their minds.
I would never tell someone they are 'not supposed to question this' - I love that SW gets people thinking about different things.. think away! It is through thinking and chatting with each other about things that we can see where answers can be possible.. or where some answers are maybe currently unknown (and one day maybe we will know!).
I've had different things spark my interest so randomly.. and I love that other SW fans get me thinking! I learn a lot from you guys - and i enjoy learning about star wars!

Oh and I'm thinking Snoke picked up exactly what was in Kylo's head when he was about to be murdered. Snoke knew Kylo's thoughts - but he misinterpreted their meaning. Snoke's hubris got him in the end!

@californiagirl wrote: I don't normally get caught up in the minutia, but it seems relevant given that it's a pretty major component of Rey and Kylo's relationship.
Even though the bond is still present at the end of TLJ, much of the audience is going to believe this whole thing was Snoke's doing unless it is overtly stated otherwise in IX.
@californiagirl
-get caught up as much or as little as you enjoy californiagirl! I agree the force bond and how it works is central to the Rey and Kylo relationship!
Yes I agree the GA is likely going to think the force bond is over.. Cool... no worries.. the story will unfold how it will unfold.. and in time we will learn more about it.

I don't know why, lol, but from seeing TLJ onwards - I believed that Snoke was the one to bridge their minds. Villains don't always lie.
For me, that Snoke bridged their minds doesn't diminish the bond's value or their experiences because of it. It was still a wonderful gift thanks to the force!  H-beating Snoke's manipulation was awful - and a tipping point for Kylo lol.
But - Rey and Kylo were already connected (so it's not completely Snoke), the Force allowed the bond to happen, and interpreting the end of TLJ as having the bond still existing after Snoke's death - the force allowed it to continue existing.

I love the idea that something Snoke meant to use as an evil tool was turned back on him  and it ultimately created the situation where he was sliced in two. ha. I love that poetic justice!
Snoke thought he was using the force as a tool... when in reality - it is actually the force that was using Snoke as a tool!
Having lived as long as he did, and studying arcane lore and all, Snoke should have known the force would kick his butt. haaaaaa..

@SoloSideCousin wrote: You know what I notice about this addition? There is no reference to Kylo Ren. It's "Ben and Rey" and "Ben cleaved him". The latter is particularly telling.
@SoloSideCousin
Whoa. this is fabulous!
I keep checking for a databank entry for 'Ben Solo' from time to time - so far we only have one for 'Kylo Ren'.
We have a separate databank entry for Anakin Skywalker and for Darth Vader. so I think eventually we will get it - Curiously - Emperor Palpatine/Darth Sidious don't get separate entries. But then, he never switched his allegiances.. so if Kylo/Ben gets separate entries we can see a good sign that redeemed Ben Solo is on the cards!  
I'm curious to see how they go with this leading up to IX or if they will have to wait till after IX.. SoloSideCousin's observation suggests we may not need to wait for IX to see more Ben Solo content!!
I think we are in for interesting times on the starwars databank over the next 600 days or so!

@Saracene wrote:
@rawpowah wrote:So I guess it's officially confirmed that Snoke is responsible for the Force bond. I thought it would have been formed in the interrogation scene. Sad I hope JJ doesn't abandon the force bond because of this, and view it just as a plot element for TLJ. It was still active when Snoke died.

I like the repeated mentions of Ben instead of Kylo.
@rawpowah

I'd think it's too convenient to abandon, it's a great device to link the characters who are difficult to put in the same scene otherwise. I'd expect at least one ForceSkype scene in Episode IX (Leia's funeral?).

The whole thing never made much sense to me though. Like, Snoke is so powerful he can reach across the galaxy to link Rey's mind with Kylo's, but he can't get her location at the same time, and instead has to rummage in her head while Rey is in the same room with him? I guess file this under "don't think too hard about SW science".
@Saracene
I agree.. It's unique to Rey and Kylo and a fabulous plot device!
LOL I'll have a go thinking too hard Saracene! Laughing
How about this.. I did give my idea for how Snoke bridged their minds above - he didn't have access to rey's mind. Only Kylo's. But.. he was able to use Kylo's existing connection with Rey to then bridge the mind of Rey and Kylo.
However - bridging the mind of Rey and Kylo did not give Snoke access to Rey's mind, and he could not see the location of skywalker.
Kylo, even with his new bridged mind with Rey, still couldn't see this location.
Snoke had to use the relationship to manipulate Rey into rescuing Kylo - bringing her to Snoke, where he could finally access her mind in the throne room through that awful torture she experienced.
Any holes in this?
Total conjecture on my part - The location of Ach-to was heavily fortified in Rey's mind.. I tend to think the force protected this knowledge - so it gave her dreams of islands to represent it in a vague, non-identifiable way when Kylo rummaged her mind. It was an additional form of protection, because Ach-to is the location of the first jedi temple and a sacred place..
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