Snoke in Episodes VIII

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Re: Snoke in Episodes VIII

Post by Kessel on Fri 04 May 2018, 10:10 pm

@Saracene wrote:
@rawpowah wrote:So I guess it's officially confirmed that Snoke is responsible for the Force bond. I thought it would have been formed in the interrogation scene. Sad I hope JJ doesn't abandon the force bond because of this, and view it just as a plot element for TLJ. It was still active when Snoke died.

I like the repeated mentions of Ben instead of Kylo.
@rawpowah

I'd think it's too convenient to abandon, it's a great device to link the characters who are difficult to put in the same scene otherwise. I'd expect at least one ForceSkype scene in Episode IX (Leia's funeral?).

The whole thing never made much sense to me though. Like, Snoke is so powerful he can reach across the galaxy to link Rey's mind with Kylo's, but he can't get her location at the same time, and instead has to rummage in her head while Rey is in the same room with him? I guess file this under "don't think too hard about SW science".
@Saracene

Yes, this is definitely a mystery. How can Snoke find Rey “in the Force” and connect her to Kylo, but he can’t find her location? Question

After all, Snoke has never met Rey. How does he even “know” her to find her in the Force? Did he somehow find her through Kylo?

Anyway, when it comes to the significance of the connection between Rey and Kylo, I don’t think it makes a difference whether or not Snoke created the connection that let them see each other as that seemed to be different from what happened between them in the interrogation where they exchanged fears, memories and abilities. Not to mention the Force visions they had of each other in the hut were not Snoke’s doing.

I agree the connection is likely still in place and JJ would be foolish not to take advantage of the storytelling possibilities such a connection could provide.

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Re: Snoke in Episodes VIII

Post by BB-Rey on Fri 04 May 2018, 10:28 pm

I think the Force Bond is going to be absolutely addressed again and in Episode IX. I think it existed long before Snoke got involved as I remember in Rey's Vision in the novel for The Force Awakens she sees a boy in the Cloud City corridor and it's strongly hinted at this is Kylo not Luke. Part of me thinks one reason they were connected more on a greater wave link distance in The Last Jedi though was Leia. I think she inadvertently had a part to play in linking them together further as I find it very curious that it so happens when she's laying in the medical bay and she drops the tracking beacon bracelet for Finn to have. I think Leia is what opened the doors further but the seeds were planted there during their first encounter and they started seeing each other, especially during the interrogation scene.

These things on the Database are similar to the ones that came out in the months after The Force Awakens when both Rey and Kylo's page mentioned a mysterious link between the two. I think it's defintely foreshadowing.
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Re: Snoke in Episodes VIII

Post by Mielikki on Sat 05 May 2018, 7:35 am

@BB-Rey wrote:I think the Force Bond is going to be absolutely addressed again and in Episode IX. I think it existed long before Snoke got involved as I remember in Rey's Vision in the novel for The Force Awakens she sees a boy in the Cloud City corridor and it's strongly hinted at this is Kylo not Luke. Part of me thinks one reason they were connected more on a greater wave link distance in The Last Jedi though was Leia. I think she inadvertently had a part to play in linking them together further as I find it very curious that it so happens when she's laying in the medical bay and she drops the tracking beacon bracelet for Finn to have. I think Leia is what opened the doors further but the seeds were planted there during their first encounter and they started seeing each other, especially during the interrogation scene.

These things on the Database are similar to the ones that came out in the months after The Force Awakens when both Rey and Kylo's page mentioned a mysterious link between the two. I think it's defintely foreshadowing.
@BB-Rey


Well Snoke was the master of manipulation as many others have mentioned before me so I'm 99% sure he was lying to an extent.

Claiming that the force bond was created by him had it's benefits.
It would make Ben doubt the connection he felt to Rey and create a rift between them.
I'm pretty sure his bond with Rey was included into his call to the light and Snoke's objective was to make Ben destroy each and every connection he felt to the light and for him to lose hope, thus falling to the dark side.

It was basically like taking a juicy steak that was lying in front of a starving dog just to aggravate it, and it worked, but the pooch bit the hand that took the steak because he still had some fighting spirit left in him. I truly believe Snoke underestimated Ben and it backfired on him.

Hell, if you think about it Snoke manipulated him from childhood and eventually made him kill his father. He must have lied a thousand times up to that point. Snoke was too sure of himself regarding his control over Ben and he was used to lie to him to break his spirit. Even that rabid cur comment that was supposedly about Hux... The timing and the acting of Andy Serkis made me believe that it was actually aimed at Ben. I think we've been given glimpses of how manipulative Snoke can be throughout the movie so we can take every claim he makes with a grain of salt.

About the force bond being connected to Leia... I have my doubts about that. I think it's the other way around.
I think Rey found her way to the Resistance and Leia thanks to her dormant connection to Ben which flourished when she actually met him.
The two of them are the balance the force seeks. Snoke's "Darkness rises and light to meet it." comment perfectly sums up their connection. The balance inside Ben was being tipped to the dark due to circumstances (namely Snoke) so the force found/created his equal in Rey and paved the road to where they would meet and eventually find balance. That's what all the visions were about. Sure, as Yoda said the future is ever changing, but the force did it's best to bring these two together.


PS: Hi everyone! First post. H-beating
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Re: Snoke in Episodes VIII

Post by SoloSideCousin on Sat 05 May 2018, 10:16 am

@Mielikki wrote:
@BB-Rey wrote:I think the Force Bond is going to be absolutely addressed again and in Episode IX. I think it existed long before Snoke got involved as I remember in Rey's Vision in the novel for The Force Awakens she sees a boy in the Cloud City corridor and it's strongly hinted at this is Kylo not Luke. Part of me thinks one reason they were connected more on a greater wave link distance in The Last Jedi though was Leia. I think she inadvertently had a part to play in linking them together further as I find it very curious that it so happens when she's laying in the medical bay and she drops the tracking beacon bracelet for Finn to have. I think Leia is what opened the doors further but the seeds were planted there during their first encounter and they started seeing each other, especially during the interrogation scene.

These things on the Database are similar to the ones that came out in the months after The Force Awakens when both Rey and Kylo's page mentioned a mysterious link between the two. I think it's defintely foreshadowing.
@BB-Rey


Well Snoke was the master of manipulation as many others have mentioned before me so I'm 99% sure he was lying to an extent.

Claiming that the force bond was created by him had it's benefits.
It would make Ben doubt the connection he felt to Rey and create a rift between them.
I'm pretty sure his bond with Rey was included into his call to the light and Snoke's objective was to make Ben destroy each and every connection he felt to the light and for him to lose hope, thus falling to the dark side.

It was basically like taking a juicy steak that was lying in front of a starving dog just to aggravate it, and it worked, but the pooch bit the hand that took the steak because he still had some fighting spirit left in him. I truly believe Snoke underestimated Ben and it backfired on him.

Hell, if you think about it Snoke manipulated him from childhood and eventually made him kill his father. He must have lied a thousand times up to that point. Snoke was too sure of himself regarding his control over Ben and he was used to lie to him to break his spirit. Even that rabid cur comment that was supposedly about Hux... The timing and the acting of Andy Serkis made me believe that it was actually aimed at Ben. I think we've been given glimpses of how manipulative Snoke can be throughout the movie so we can take every claim he makes with a grain of salt.

About the force bond being connected to Leia... I have my doubts about that. I think it's the other way around.
I think Rey found her way to the Resistance and Leia thanks to her dormant connection to Ben which flourished when she actually met him.
The two of them are the balance the force seeks. Snoke's "Darkness rises and light to meet it." comment perfectly sums up their connection. The balance inside Ben was being tipped to the dark due to circumstances (namely Snoke) so the force found/created his equal in Rey and paved the road to where they would meet and eventually find balance. That's what all the visions were about. Sure, as Yoda said the future is ever changing, but the force did it's best to bring these two together.


PS: Hi everyone! First post. H-beating
@Mielikki

Awesome first post!!!! Welcome aboard!!! :-)
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Re: Snoke in Episodes VIII

Post by BB-Rey on Sat 05 May 2018, 10:27 am

@Mielikki

Well said. Especially about Snoke. This is why I'm not fully convinced he's truly gone. He's very calculating and we know from the novel that he never saw The First Order as his end goal. I find this to be a very big clue. Especially as having Kylo and Hux going at it would divide them and the order further.

With the the Force Bond, I have no doubt it wasn't actually created by Snoke. As with Leia and everything else, I think the Force Bond was there and always was there but Rey was only beginning to test her powers in The Force Awakens so her connection to it was cut off a bit until her powers grew and she became Kylo's equal in the light and the Force Bond emerges. I think Leia linked them together more so though. I'm not sure how to explain how exactly but I think she played a part as she wants Rey's help in bringing her son home. She knows Rey is her only hope to do so. I think meshing the connection and bond together further was designed by Leia to try setting into motion bringing her son back and also so she'd know more about Rey. After all, Episode IX was to be her movie. I think Leia was and still will hopefully have a greater narrative purpose in the context to Reylo.

As well as, welcome to our little corner in the galaxy! Smile
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Re: Snoke in Episodes VIII

Post by special_cases on Sat 05 May 2018, 11:10 am

Hilarious that there are people (and I'm not talking about crazy antis) who really think that Reylo is over because "obviously" Snoke created a connection between them. lol! Hilarious, but not surprising. It's like ESB "Well, Leia is with Luke now, Han Solo is almost dead, finally, Leia will understand who is her real love!11!"
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Re: Snoke in Episodes VIII

Post by ZioRen on Sat 05 May 2018, 12:22 pm

I've thought from the start that Snoke latched onto an existing connection he sensed between Kylo and Rey and basically kicked the door wide open. But honestly, even if Rey and Kylo never connected like that and Snoke did it all, so what? Obviously the connection grew far beyond Snoke to the point where it both was his doom and remained after his death. I find that incredibly romantic in its own way. People act like it wasn't significant that the movie clearly emphasized the bond still existing even at the very end, which means it no longer hinges on Snoke at all and Snoke creating it means nothing.
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Re: Snoke in Episodes VIII

Post by special_cases on Sat 05 May 2018, 1:15 pm

There is like 1% chance that they would made it Snoke's creation. C'mon, they just want GA to see it like this in the second movie.
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Re: Snoke in Episodes VIII

Post by snufkin on Sat 05 May 2018, 2:14 pm

Every time this thread gets bumped post-TLJ

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Re: Snoke in Episodes VIII

Post by DeeBee on Sat 05 May 2018, 10:13 pm

@BB-Rey wrote:I think the Force Bond is going to be absolutely addressed again and in Episode IX. I think it existed long before Snoke got involved as I remember in Rey's Vision in the novel for The Force Awakens she sees a boy in the Cloud City corridor and it's strongly hinted at this is Kylo not Luke. Part of me thinks one reason they were connected more on a greater wave link distance in The Last Jedi though was Leia. I think she inadvertently had a part to play in linking them together further as I find it very curious that it so happens when she's laying in the medical bay and she drops the tracking beacon bracelet for Finn to have. I think Leia is what opened the doors further but the seeds were planted there during their first encounter and they started seeing each other, especially during the interrogation scene.

These things on the Database are similar to the ones that came out in the months after The Force Awakens when both Rey and Kylo's page mentioned a mysterious link between the two. I think it's defintely foreshadowing.
@BB-Rey

BB-Rey, I always love to hear new ideas! Leia being involved is a new one!
I hope you don't mind if I play around with this idea and explore it a little...
As my massive post yesterday (Embarassed ) outlined, there is evidence there was a connection between Rey and Kylo long before Leia ever met Rey.
So if Leia is involved at all, it would not have been till after she met Rey - at the end of TFA.
If Leia is involved, it would (I think) be limited to altering the nature of/quality of/intensity of the connection - same as I think what happened with Snoke.
I see what you mean about the beacon - there is much 'destiny' at work in all the inter-relationships and how the events unfold for many of the characters. I put this down to the force being at work to bring peace to the galaxy..
Anyway, it's possible we could find out Leia was involved, and I'd be totally open to that. It could be an interesting twist!
For me, at the moment, I don't see anything pointing specifically to that. Thanks for sharing this really interesting idea!

@Mielikki wrote: @BB-Rey
Well Snoke was the master of manipulation as many others have mentioned before me so I'm 99% sure he was lying to an extent.

Claiming that the force bond was created by him had it's benefits.
It would make Ben doubt the connection he felt to Rey and create a rift between them.
I'm pretty sure his bond with Rey was included into his call to the light and Snoke's objective was to make Ben destroy each and every connection he felt to the light and for him to lose hope, thus falling to the dark side.

@Mielikki
Yep I agree! I'm sure Snoke was a lying manipulator! Snoke was using the bond to manipulate them both.
But in saying he 'bridged their minds' I don't think he was lying, and the novelisation provides Snoke's POV and shows he was not lying. Snoke believes he bridged their minds...
Where he over reaches (not lying, just plain hubris) is in thinking he is solely responsible for it.. there was already a connection there..
But at the same time, he did 'connect' them in a different way.
Both are true - They already had a connection before Snoke, and Snoke connected them.
I tend to view it as there was an existing connection, and then Snoke added the bond - just because the language here can be quite confusing. lol.

There's a bit of a double up in this conversation about Snoke - if you are interested he is also being discussed in the Snoke in IX thread. He may be dead - but he is still part of the story that is unfolding...
@Mielikki wrote: It was basically like taking a juicy steak that was lying in front of a starving dog just to aggravate it, and it worked, but the pooch bit the hand that took the steak because he still had some fighting spirit left in him. I truly believe Snoke underestimated Ben and it backfired on him.

Hell, if you think about it Snoke manipulated him from childhood and eventually made him kill his father. He must have lied a thousand times up to that point. Snoke was too sure of himself regarding his control over Ben and he was used to lie to him to break his spirit. Even that rabid cur comment that was supposedly about Hux... The timing and the acting of Andy Serkis made me believe that it was actually aimed at Ben. I think we've been given glimpses of how manipulative Snoke can be throughout the movie so we can take every claim he makes with a grain of salt.
PS: Hi everyone! First post. H-beating
@Mielikki
I like this description! Yeah, Snoke was intentionally being cruel toward Kylo for sure.. but it doesn't need to be a lie to be cruel - sometimes a truth can be even more cruel.
Yeah I also thought Snoke was digging at Kylo with the rabid cur line..
especially because he immediately turned to Kylo to ask 'how is your wound? the dialogue there was brilliant!
Snoke didn't give a toss about his wound - it was a test to see if Kylo would show weakness - So Snoke could use it. Kylo's suffering was a sharp tool Snoke wielded. It was psychological warfare which is part of what makes Snoke such a cruel and fascinating character (to me).

Welcome to the conversation Mielikki!!!

@special_cases wrote:Hilarious that there are people (and I'm not talking about crazy antis) who really think that Reylo is over because "obviously" Snoke created a connection between them. lol! Hilarious, but not surprising. It's like ESB "Well, Leia is with Luke now, Han Solo is almost dead, finally, Leia will understand who is her real love!11!"
@special_cases

The GA don't read the databank, don't listen to the commentary.. and at this point I think it would be easy to not see an existing connection between Rey and Kylo that gave any indication there was something there before Snoke boosted the signal.. or upgraded it to add the new and improved instant force skype feature. lol.
I'm okay with this, I figure in the big scheme of things I'm probably a little weird.. lol. but if I were in their shoes I probably would not have noticed it either.. I think it is portrayed in an obscured way.. I think IX will make clear that what Rey and Kylo share transcends Snoke - but for now, I accept I will experience the story unfolding differently to someone who isn't as deep into it as I am...  

@ZioRen wrote:I've thought from the start that Snoke latched onto an existing connection he sensed between Kylo and Rey and basically kicked the door wide open. But honestly, even if Rey and Kylo never connected like that and Snoke did it all, so what? Obviously the connection grew far beyond Snoke to the point where it both was his doom and remained after his death. I find that incredibly romantic in its own way. People act like it wasn't significant that the movie clearly emphasized the bond still existing even at the very end, which means it no longer hinges on Snoke at all and Snoke creating it means nothing.
@ZioRen
- 100% Agree!!!!  this is how I'm viewing it too!

@snufkin
-yeah Snoke isn't going to disappear from the conversation..
In the Snoke in IX thread http://www.reyloskyforum.net/t722p50-snoke-in-episode-ix#191695 I shared a twitter feed tracking Snoke's death status. It was hilarious!! But boooo it's been taken down now.. it was there in April... I guess Snoke really is dead haaaa..
I love to discuss Snoke and theorise and play with it - and I also laugh at myself that I saw him cut in two and I'm still tossing up the idea he could still be around haaaaa.. and I'm happy I'm not alone in this Laughing
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Re: Snoke in Episodes VIII

Post by DeeBee on Mon 07 May 2018, 7:53 pm

Hi Everyone, thought I'd just share some delicious Snoke irony I found in TLJ expanded novelisation with this graphic I just created.
The quote is Snoke's POV the first time Rey tries to force pull the saber in the throne room.



I love how Kylo/Ben uses such a trivial use of the force to bring Snoke down - Such hubris needed to be punished.  Very Happy
The novelisation is full of these little touches. Jason Fry did a fantastic job. I love it!
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Re: Snoke in Episodes VIII

Post by DeeBee on Thu 17 May 2018, 12:59 am

Hi everyone, the star wars databank is the gift that keeps on giving..
the gallery for the Snoke entry has one new slide.. I"ll share it here:

source: https://www.starwars.com/databank/supreme-leader-snoke-biography-gallery
first of many more to come I am sure...
-interesting choice of image no?
my random thoughts..
-Snoke's entries are so interesting as they are tellingly much more about other characters than about Snoke himself.
-further confirmation that Snoke created the connection.
-'rip Skywalker's location from her memory' is very graphic.. I was just commenting in the Rey's journey thread at how I tend to overlook just how traumatic what Snoke did to her was... the image that accompanies this blurb to me highlights the horrific experience of Rey being confronted with Snoke. Yuck!
Thoughts anyone?
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Re: Snoke in Episodes VIII

Post by Riri on Thu 17 May 2018, 1:15 am

@DeeBee

So the databank also says that Kylo felt a connection to Ry all the way back in Takodana. This is all so confusing, so they have a connection but Snoke created the FB? So how does that explain the scene where Rey shut the door on him?

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Re: Snoke in Episodes VIII

Post by DeeBee on Thu 17 May 2018, 1:25 am

@Riri wrote:@DeeBee

So the databank also says that Kylo felt a connection to Ry all the way back in Takodana. This is all so confusing, so they have a connection but Snoke created the FB? So how does that explain the scene where Rey shut the door on him?
@Riri
hiya Riri, you raise great questions. It is indeed confusing! This new entry is not the first time snoke has been given credit for creating the connection either...
I posted further up in this thread (HERE) -how I see it all coming together.. Anything newly added to the databank so far hasn't changed what my thoughts on the connection are - taking into consideration that there was an existing connection, and at the same time, Snoke created the connection. Sounds contradictory but I've come up with a way to make it work in my mind. lol. [it can be scary in my mind haaa]
Rey closing the connection at the end of TLJ? I don't know how that happened or what it means, I'm thinking I will need to wait for a databank entry to shed light on it's interpretation, or more likely - I"ll need to wait for events in IX to make sense of it. Not sure if that is much help.. lol. sunny
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Re: Snoke in Episodes VIII

Post by Riri on Thu 17 May 2018, 1:36 am

@Deebee

I just asked Matt Martin lol



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Re: Snoke in Episodes VIII

Post by DeeBee on Thu 17 May 2018, 1:59 am

@Riri
Go Riri! How's that for instant gratification!
'metaphorical'? huh? not literal? representing something else?
What do you all make of this? Riri? everyone?

I put Matt's answer down to the story tellers keeping the force bond/connection vaguely defined - just as they do with the force itself. Maybe it is vaguely defined by the story group at this point too. [suggests to me a definite answer about the finer workings of their connection are not going to be forthcoming in IX maybe.] I'm surprised Matt answered you at all about this.. LOL. I would be very surprised if anyone official answered these kinds of questions clearly at this point. Especially about the force.. It's akin to asking how will the force be balanced? All the pieces of the story are being laid out - but are not yet forming a full picture. All IMHO of course.. his answer doesn't alter my take on it at this point.. something was there already, but Snoke is responsible for the bridging of their minds.. and I think that's as specific as it's going to get -clear answers may come in IX or lol maybe not at all..

Rey seeing Kylo in her vision and Kylo reacting to Rey in her vision- don't seem metaphorical (IMHO),  the entries in the databank don't seem to suggest a metaphor. What happened in the interrogation scene didn't seem like a metaphor (already confirmed that Rey downloaded skills and Kylo downloaded Rey's memories - this didn't seem like a metaphor. by Pablo wasn't it?) I think there is strong evidence a (non-metaphorical) connection existed in the interrogation scene. But.. YMMV! Laughing

Please let us know if he responds to your follow up question Riri!
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Re: Snoke in Episodes VIII

Post by Riri on Thu 17 May 2018, 2:05 am

@DeeBee

Check my post, i edited it. He replied again. He basically said we will learn the specifics in Ep9 and then was like (or maybe not) Loooool. He just basically confrmed we will or otherwise he would have given some vague answer to my Q.

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Re: Snoke in Episodes VIII

Post by DeeBee on Thu 17 May 2018, 2:05 am

@Riri wrote:@DeeBee

Check my post, i edited it. He replied again. He basically said we will learn the specifics in Ep9 and then was like (or maybe not) Loooool. He just basically confrmed we will or otherwise he would have given some vague answer to my Q.
@Riri

Aha! exactly! Thanks Riri!
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