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Post by BastilaBey on Fri 20 May - 16:49

@FrolickingFizzGig Again, as a feminist myself I see Rey and Kylo's dynamic as one that positions these two force users as equally powerful, with lots to learn from each other. Anyone who says seeing 'Reylo' is sexist clearly missed the part where she kicked his butt. Twice.
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Post by vaderito on Fri 20 May - 16:58

@BastilaBey wrote:@FrolickingFizzGig Again, as a feminist myself I see Rey and Kylo's dynamic as one that positions these two force users as equally powerful, with lots to learn from each other. Anyone who says seeing 'Reylo' is sexist clearly missed the part where she kicked his butt. Twice.
@BastilaBey

And he liked it. of course, Snoke's gonna tell him he's a fool and pump him up to kill rey which is a big mistake on his part. Just like Luke trying to pump up Rey to kill Kylo is big mistake. Mars and Venus don't work that way. the more obstacles/the more forbidden the fruit the hotter the passion/desire.
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Post by Saracene on Fri 20 May - 18:18

I get an impression from reading some articles/sites that some feminists see Rey as Perfect Feminist Role Model while Kylo is like a personification of Everything Wrong with White Male Geek Culture. So if Rey develops any kind of connection or feelings towards him, they're going to flip haaard.
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Post by vaderito on Fri 20 May - 18:31

@Saracene wrote:I get an impression from reading some articles/sites that some feminists see Rey as Perfect Feminist Role Model while Kylo is like a personification of Everything Wrong with White Male Geek Culture. So if Rey develops any kind of connection or feelings towards him, they're going to flip haaard.
@Saracene

Let them flip. They are huge minority. Rest of the world will be enchanted.
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Post by BastilaBey on Fri 20 May - 18:33

@Saracene wrote:I get an impression from reading some articles/sites that some feminists see Rey as Perfect Feminist Role Model while Kylo is like a personification of Everything Wrong with White Male Geek Culture. So if Rey develops any kind of connection or feelings towards him, they're going to flip haaard.
@Saracene

Wouldn't it then be a feminist victory for Rey the role model to bring the arrogant white male geek to his knees and make him realize he is wrong?
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Post by BenRey on Fri 20 May - 18:35

@Saracene wrote:I get an impression from reading some articles/sites that some feminists see Rey as Perfect Feminist Role Model while Kylo is like a personification of Everything Wrong with White Male Geek Culture. So if Rey develops any kind of connection or feelings towards him, they're going to flip haaard.
@Saracene

This one from the Marysue got a lot of attention.

www.themarysue.com/the-force-awakens-gatekeepers/
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Post by BastilaBey on Fri 20 May - 18:39

@BenRey Interesting, although I disagree with the premise. Kylo resonates so much as a villain because he seems to subvert the traditional machismo of that archetype. He's emotional, not afraid to cry, presents as conventionally feminine with full lips and long hair. But obviously everyone will feel differently.
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Post by vaderito on Fri 20 May - 19:00

@BastilaBey wrote:@BenRey Interesting, although I disagree with the premise. Kylo resonates so much as a villain because he seems to subvert the traditional machismo of that archetype. He's emotional, not afraid to cry, presents as conventionally feminine with full lips and long hair. But obviously everyone will feel differently.
@BastilaBey

isn't Marysue a staunch Finnrey? I don't follow her site but I've heard that somewhere.
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Post by Saracene on Fri 20 May - 19:13

@BastilaBey wrote:
@Saracene wrote:I get an impression from reading some articles/sites that some feminists see Rey as Perfect Feminist Role Model while Kylo is like a personification of Everything Wrong with White Male Geek Culture. So if Rey develops any kind of connection or feelings towards him, they're going to flip haaard.
@Saracene

Wouldn't it then be a feminist victory for Rey the role model to bring the arrogant white male geek to his knees and make him realize he is wrong?
@BastilaBey

Yeah, but there's also this tendency to think that when a female character has romantic feelings it somehow makes her "weak". If Rey brought Kylo to his knees without developing any attachments herself, that's different. I remember the mini-sithstorm in Harry Potter fandom when Tonks got romantically involved with Lupin, and *gasp shock* dared to be sad and heartbroken over a man. Nevermind the fact that she still got on with her job, she let down the sisterhood!

"Strong independent woman" thing does my head in, and I'm saying this as someone who's been happily single for most of my life. So what, all of my female friends who have boyfriends/husbands are "weak dependent women"? LOL.
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Post by Mana on Fri 20 May - 19:28

Yes yes, lets ignore everything the writers have done to give us these compelling and nuanced characters and lets shoehorn them into one dimensional stereotypes to satisfy the minority who will find something to b****about no matter what happens in the movie.
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Post by Saracene on Fri 20 May - 19:32

I think that all the various thinkpieces and real-world parallels Kylo inspires says a lot about what a rich character he is. The mistake is to assume that this interpretation is actually what the filmmakers intended to portray.
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Post by snufkin on Fri 20 May - 21:50

@BastilaBey wrote:@FrolickingFizzGig Again, as a feminist myself I see Rey and Kylo's dynamic as one that positions these two force users as equally powerful, with lots to learn from each other. Anyone who says seeing 'Reylo' is sexist clearly missed the part where she kicked his butt. Twice.

I'm a card carrying Feminist Killjoy and the whole dynamic between them is probably one of the best things about making her a more complicated/real heroine versus the usual Strong Female Character (or Incompetent Hero's Competent Female Sidekick) tropes.  Also related, but I was reading Vanity Fair and ran across their story about Rey and the Bechdel Test, just scroll down to the bottom and look who's in the gif below "Just as long as we remember who’s the love interest and who’s the hero."

Star Wars: The Force Awakens’s Rey Is the Bechdel-Busting Intergalactic Hero We Were Promised

http://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2015/12/star-wars-force-awakens-daisy-ridley-rey-feminist-bechdel-test
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Post by vaderito on Sat 21 May - 1:22

I don't understand anyone who calls themselves a feminist and than insists that Rey must end up with Finn cause "he deserves her". They just made Rey into a trophy/prize and that's as anti-feminist as it gets. And yet that sentiment, that it must be Finn cause he deserves to get Rey, is prevalent among some Rey fans who claim to be feminists and view Rey as Jedi Goddess Feminist Gift to the World. And prize for Finn to pluck. Rolling Eyes
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Post by FrolickingFizzgig on Sat 21 May - 8:01

@Saracene wrote:I think that all the various thinkpieces and real-world parallels Kylo inspires says a lot about what a rich character he is. The mistake is to assume that this interpretation is actually what the filmmakers intended to portray.
@Saracene
This is such a good point. We also made assumptions back in the day about what the filmmakers were intending to portray, but the thing is the filmmakers later backed us up without knowing it through interviews and DVD commentary. For example, these quotes from one of the editors of The Force Awakens and JJ:
"I think Adam Driver is that. I mean he sort of evokes that [lost little boy quality]. I think that's why he was cast, because he has that sort of 'lost' quality, but this kind of 'menacing' quality, um... especially because he's so big, black hair, and, you know." - Maryann
"It’s more than just having a ‘bad seed’ as a kid. [...] "So this mother and father had a target as a son, someone who’s watching their boy, and these parents aren’t there enough to guide him." - JJ Abrams
They were going for that "lost boy" quality when they cast Adam. Without the mask, that's what he is.
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Post by SoloSideCousin on Sat 21 May - 11:58

@FrolickingFizzgig wrote:
@Saracene wrote:I think that all the various thinkpieces and real-world parallels Kylo inspires says a lot about what a rich character he is. The mistake is to assume that this interpretation is actually what the filmmakers intended to portray.
@Saracene
This is such a good point. We also made assumptions back in the day about what the filmmakers were intending to portray, but the thing is the filmmakers later backed us up without knowing it through interviews and DVD commentary. For example, these quotes from one of the editors of The Force Awakens and JJ:
"I think Adam Driver is that. I mean he sort of evokes that [lost little boy quality]. I think that's why he was cast, because he has that sort of 'lost' quality, but this kind of 'menacing' quality, um... especially because he's so big, black hair, and, you know." - Maryann
"It’s more than just having a ‘bad seed’ as a kid. [...] "So this mother and father had a target as a son, someone who’s watching their boy, and these parents aren’t there enough to guide him." - JJ Abrams
They were going for that "lost boy" quality when they cast Adam. Without the mask, that's what he is.
@FrolickingFizzgig

What's even more awesome is that Adam Driver is quite capable of *not being a little boy* as well. So when Kylo/Ben straightens up, he'll be something to behold!
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Post by BastilaBey on Thu 26 May - 4:19

This is a few months old but I really enjoyed listening and would recommend. It's a comparison of Anakin and Ben, the podcasters seem redemption-friendly and recognize that Rey would be a critical influence on Ben saving himself. There's a little of the typical talk about him being an entitled brat, but there's also some interesting discussion about the kind of pressure he'd have being this legacy child and finding out about Vader.

http://fullofsith.com/archives/1633
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Post by ReyofLightSide on Thu 26 May - 6:21

Kylo's mom is one of the strongest women he has ever encountered and we see no signs of his disdain for her. In fact, his disdain is towards his father whom he classifies as "weak and foolish." One thing I like about TFA is that Kylo (and Snoke) don't downplay how strong Rey is or say she is "just a girl." (Vader saying Luke is "just a boy" in ESB but could be interpreted in him wanting to shield him from the Emperor at first)

"It isn't her strength that is making you fail, it is your weakness."- Snoke from the novel

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Post by BastilaBey on Thu 26 May - 15:11

@gemini They said on the podcast they thought he arrived without the mask because it means he can stand out from the other KoR, otherwise they might all blur together. It's possible he puts it back on later, but who can say right now
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Post by BastilaBey on Fri 27 May - 16:03

Jason goes into a little more of a detailed description about the spoilers concerning Kylo coming to Ahch-to and Rey being asked to kill him in this interview for another podcast show on the mSW network. It's a long interview but skip to 95 minutes for the spoiler stuff. They say it seems like Rey and Luke are on Ahch-to for almost the entire movie, and they estimate that Kylo arrives in the middle but it's hard to tell just from the shooting schedule. Kylo has the knights go after Luke and Rey 'is his' because she beat him last time. All of which is to say this sounds pretty personal.

They also point out that Luke asking Rey to kill Kylo is towards the beginning of the film, and that's an entirely different moment from Kylo arriving.
Also - it's 'very possible' that Rey and Finn might not be reunited in this movie.
Another interesting thing! Jason says when talking about the possibility of luke's presence overshadowing Rey's, since she is the heroine, this would be solved by Rey's 'ideology' winning. Which means it could be the right choice for her not to kill Kylo, showing that Luke was mistaken and that she's not just doing something because Luke Skywalker told her to.

'Rey and Kylo Ren's fight is the actual drama, that's the focal point' - Jason says this after the interviewer gushes about Luke being a bad*** and killing KoR

This doesn't sound like it's based on any spoilers but just their personal views, they talk about the possibility of Kylo being redeemed. Jason says that 'structurally' it could happen (I'm assuming he means if you have someone do something awful in the first movie, they have to develop on a positive trajectory, as opposed to a negative), he just can't personally get past Kylo killing Han. So it becomes a question of how they get the audience to buy his redemption. Randy can't imagine a SW trilogy where they have such a 'sympathetic villain' who is not redeemed.

More interesting speculation. Around the 119 minute mark, they bring up KK's comments about the trilogies 'always being about the Skywalkers'. They skirt around the issue for a while, make jokes about Kylo already having kids out there, say it is also about adopted family. But then Jason says there has always been a central romance in Star Wars, 'and is that just going to be Finn and Tran's character?'

"It would be very strange to have a star wars trilogy with no romance ever. And so like, you know, is it just going to be Boyega and whats her name, Tran? Or are they going to bring something together there?"

"We agree that it's unlikely that Rey and Finn are in much of episode VIII together"
"But we don't necessarily agree that there's not a romance"
"Right, correct, but whatever romance there is, in VIII or IX, it didn't start in episode VII"
"Well Boyega has said they didn't shoot it or play it that way - like that is what he has said...and so when you see that kind of stuff, it's like at most a flirtation. When he's asking if she has a boyfriend back home, like that's pretty much it, after that there's not a lot that, you know..."
"To me, in reality, I wouldn't see someone in a hospital kissing someone's forehead and think 'get a room'"

http://roguewon.podbean.com/e/episode-6-now-this-is-rogue-winning/


Last edited by BastilaBey on Fri 27 May - 16:46; edited 5 times in total
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Post by Kessel on Fri 27 May - 16:46

@BastilaBey wrote:Jason goes into a little more of a detailed description about the spoilers concerning Kylo coming to Ahch-to and Rey being asked to kill him in this interview for another podcast show on the mSW network. It's a long interview but skip to 95 minutes for the spoiler stuff. They say it seems like Rey and Luke are on Ahch-to for almost the entire movie, and they estimate that Kylo arrives in the middle but it's hard to tell just from the shooting schedule. Kylo has the knights go after Luke and Rey 'is his' because she beat him last time. All of which is to say this sounds pretty personal.

They also point out that Luke asking Rey to kill Kylo is towards the beginning of the film, and that's an entirely different moment from Kylo arriving.
Also - it's 'very possible' that Rey and Finn might not be reunited in this movie.
Another interesting thing! Jason says when talking about the possibility of luke's presence overshadowing Rey's, since she is the heroine, this would be solved by Rey's 'ideology' winning. Which means it could be the right choice for her not to kill Kylo, showing that Luke was mistaken and that she's not just doing something because Luke Skywalker told her to.

'Rey and Kylo Ren's fight is the actual drama, that's the focal point' - Jason says this after the interviewer gushes about Luke being a bad*** and killing KoR

This doesn't sound like it's based on any spoilers but just their personal views, they talk about the possibility of Kylo being redeemed. Jason says that 'structurally' it could happen (I'm assuming he means if you have someone do something awful in the first movie, they have to develop on a positive trajectory, as opposed to a negative), he just can't personally get past Kylo killing Han. So it becomes a question of how they get the audience to buy his redemption. Randy can't imagine a SW trilogy where they have such a 'sympathetic villain' who is not redeemed.

More interesting speculation. Around the 119 minute mark, they bring up KK's comments about the trilogies 'always being about the Skywalkers'. They skirt around the issue for a while, make jokes about Kylo already having kids out there, say it is also about adopted family. But then Jason says there has always been a central romance in Star Wars, 'and is that just going to be Finn and Tran's character?'

http://roguewon.podbean.com/e/episode-6-now-this-is-rogue-winning/
@BastilaBey

Thanks for posting this! I can't wait to listen to it.

There are defintely missing pieces in MSW's information regarding Rey, Luke and Rey, but it's interesting that they estimate Rey and Luke will be on Ahch-to for awhile...I wonder why and I wonder if Kylo will be there for awhile too. It's obvious that the fight between Rey and Kylo will be epic. If it's the focal point of the movie (and possibly in the middle of the movie), something dramatic will come of it.

I think I've pretty much given up on remaining spoiler-free.
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Post by IoJovi on Fri 27 May - 16:49

Kessel89 wrote:
@BastilaBey wrote:Jason goes into a little more of a detailed description about the spoilers concerning Kylo coming to Ahch-to and Rey being asked to kill him in this interview for another podcast show on the mSW network. It's a long interview but skip to 95 minutes for the spoiler stuff. They say it seems like Rey and Luke are on Ahch-to for almost the entire movie, and they estimate that Kylo arrives in the middle but it's hard to tell just from the shooting schedule. Kylo has the knights go after Luke and Rey 'is his' because she beat him last time. All of which is to say this sounds pretty personal.

They also point out that Luke asking Rey to kill Kylo is towards the beginning of the film, and that's an entirely different moment from Kylo arriving.
Also - it's 'very possible' that Rey and Finn might not be reunited in this movie.
Another interesting thing! Jason says when talking about the possibility of luke's presence overshadowing Rey's, since she is the heroine, this would be solved by Rey's 'ideology' winning. Which means it could be the right choice for her not to kill Kylo, showing that Luke was mistaken and that she's not just doing something because Luke Skywalker told her to.

'Rey and Kylo Ren's fight is the actual drama, that's the focal point' - Jason says this after the interviewer gushes about Luke being a bad*** and killing KoR

This doesn't sound like it's based on any spoilers but just their personal views, they talk about the possibility of Kylo being redeemed. Jason says that 'structurally' it could happen (I'm assuming he means if you have someone do something awful in the first movie, they have to develop on a positive trajectory, as opposed to a negative), he just can't personally get past Kylo killing Han. So it becomes a question of how they get the audience to buy his redemption. Randy can't imagine a SW trilogy where they have such a 'sympathetic villain' who is not redeemed.

More interesting speculation. Around the 119 minute mark, they bring up KK's comments about the trilogies 'always being about the Skywalkers'. They skirt around the issue for a while, make jokes about Kylo already having kids out there, say it is also about adopted family. But then Jason says there has always been a central romance in Star Wars, 'and is that just going to be Finn and Tran's character?'

http://roguewon.podbean.com/e/episode-6-now-this-is-rogue-winning/
@BastilaBey

Thanks for posting this! I can't wait to listen to it.

There are defintely missing pieces in MSW's information regarding Rey, Luke and Rey, but it's interesting that they estimate Rey and Luke will be on Ahch-to for awhile...I wonder why and I wonder if Kylo will be there for awhile too. It's obvious that the fight between Rey and Kylo will be epic. If it's the focal point of the movie (and possibly in the middle of the movie), something dramatic will come of it.

I think I've pretty much given up on remaining spoiler-free.
@Kessel89

If Rey and Luke are on Ach-To for the majority of the movie, and Ren is there stranded because his ship has crashed and his Knights are kaput, you can guarantee Rey and Ren are going to have an absolute sith load of screen time together.

We've been waiting for some good news and my gosh if this it, I don't know what is!!!

bounce bounce
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Post by Xylo Ren on Fri 27 May - 16:56

@BastilaBey

Hmmm, mixed thoughts on this podcast. It's just interesting to listen to because I could see some things going both ways too, especially with the Luke stuff. Some think he won't die because they can't kill another OT, some think he has to die like Obi Wan. Some think he'll battle Snoke, some don't. I don't think he'll battle Snoke, it just hasn't been set up like that. Can anyone picture Snoke battling Luke and killing him like Vader to Obi Wan? Sacrificing himself so Kylo gets mad and turns on Snoke?

A couple of them can see Kylo being redeemed, the one guy (Jason? Idk) was like "Euch!"

Their romance talk made my eyes roll. Ehem
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Post by BastilaBey on Fri 27 May - 17:00

@Xylo Ren wrote:@BastilaBey

Hmmm, mixed thoughts on this podcast. It's just interesting to listen to because I could see some things going both ways too, especially with the Luke stuff. Some think he won't die because they can't kill another OT, some think he has to die like Obi Wan. Some think he'll battle Snoke, some don't. I don't think he'll battle Snoke, it just hasn't been set up like that. Can anyone picture Snoke battling Luke and killing him like Vader to Obi Wan? Sacrificing himself so Kylo gets mad and turns on Snoke?

A couple of them can see Kylo being redeemed, the one guy (Jason? Idk) was like "Euch!"

Their romance talk made my eyes roll. Ehem
@Xylo Ren

The guy who insists that Luke is going to battle Kylo and Snoke clearly has his OT hero goggles on. Jason repeatedly says Rey is our heroine now, and...we just heard about a scene in which Kylo comes to Ahch-to and doesn't go for Luke, he goes for Rey! That tells us the Luke thing isn't going to happen, because he's not the center of this story.

The idea of 'Ben Solo' being the future hero of another trilogy obviously sounds unrealistic but they were throwing out ideas, and that guy who said that made it clear it would be Rey who 'redeemed him'. Sigh...it amazes me how so many people get redemption and forgiveness mixed up, even Star Wars fans. Luke did not redeem Vader, he forgave him. Vader redeemed himself.
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Post by Xylo Ren on Fri 27 May - 17:04

@BastilaBey wrote:
@Xylo Ren wrote:@BastilaBey

Hmmm, mixed thoughts on this podcast. It's just interesting to listen to because I could see some things going both ways too, especially with the Luke stuff. Some think he won't die because they can't kill another OT, some think he has to die like Obi Wan. Some think he'll battle Snoke, some don't. I don't think he'll battle Snoke, it just hasn't been set up like that. Can anyone picture Snoke battling Luke and killing him like Vader to Obi Wan? Sacrificing himself so Kylo gets mad and turns on Snoke?

A couple of them can see Kylo being redeemed, the one guy (Jason? Idk) was like "Euch!"

Their romance talk made my eyes roll. Ehem
@Xylo Ren

The guy who insists that Luke is going to battle Kylo and Snoke clearly has his OT hero goggles on. Jason repeatedly says Rey is our heroine now, and...we just heard about a scene in which Kylo comes to Ahch-to and doesn't go for Luke, he goes for Rey! That tells us the Luke thing isn't going to happen, because he's not the center of this story.

The idea of 'Ben Solo' being the future hero of another trilogy sounds unrealistic but they were throwing out ideas, and that guy who said that made it clear it would be Rey who 'redeemed him'. Sigh...it amazes me how so many people get redemption and forgiveness mixed up, even Star Wars fans. Luke did not redeem Vader, he forgave him. Vader redeemed himself.
@BastilaBey

Yeah, listening to this really did make me realize how differently people view these films. These guys were mainly interested in the action parts of it, which makes me a little worried that people won't pick up on it if these films are as spiritual and deep as I've been envisioning.
Xylo Ren
Xylo Ren
Force Ghost
Force Ghost

Messages : 2029
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Date d'inscription : 2016-03-27

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