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Post by vaderito on Fri 27 May 2016, 7:26 pm

@BastilaBey wrote:Jason goes into a little more of a detailed description about the spoilers concerning Kylo coming to Ahch-to and Rey being asked to kill him in this interview for another podcast show on the mSW network. It's a long interview but skip to 95 minutes for the spoiler stuff. They say it seems like Rey and Luke are on Ahch-to for almost the entire movie, and they estimate that Kylo arrives in the middle but it's hard to tell just from the shooting schedule. Kylo has the knights go after Luke and Rey 'is his' because she beat him last time. All of which is to say this sounds pretty personal.

They also point out that Luke asking Rey to kill Kylo is towards the beginning of the film, and that's an entirely different moment from Kylo arriving.
Also - it's 'very possible' that Rey and Finn might not be reunited in this movie.
Another interesting thing! Jason says when talking about the possibility of luke's presence overshadowing Rey's, since she is the heroine, this would be solved by Rey's 'ideology' winning. Which means it could be the right choice for her not to kill Kylo, showing that Luke was mistaken and that she's not just doing something because Luke Skywalker told her to.

'Rey and Kylo Ren's fight is the actual drama, that's the focal point' - Jason says this after the interviewer gushes about Luke being a bad*** and killing KoR

This doesn't sound like it's based on any spoilers but just their personal views, they talk about the possibility of Kylo being redeemed. Jason says that 'structurally' it could happen (I'm assuming he means if you have someone do something awful in the first movie, they have to develop on a positive trajectory, as opposed to a negative), he just can't personally get past Kylo killing Han. So it becomes a question of how they get the audience to buy his redemption. Randy can't imagine a SW trilogy where they have such a 'sympathetic villain' who is not redeemed.

More interesting speculation. Around the 119 minute mark, they bring up KK's comments about the trilogies 'always being about the Skywalkers'. They skirt around the issue for a while, make jokes about Kylo already having kids out there, say it is also about adopted family. But then Jason says there has always been a central romance in Star Wars, 'and is that just going to be Finn and Tran's character?'

"It would be very strange to have a star wars trilogy with no romance ever. And so like, you know, is it just going to be Boyega and whats her name, Tran? Or are they going to bring something together there?"

"We agree that it's unlikely that Rey and Finn are in much of episode VIII together"
"But we don't necessarily agree that there's not a romance"
"Right, correct, but whatever romance there is, in VIII or IX, it didn't start in episode VII"
"Well Boyega has said they didn't shoot it or play it that way - like that is what he has said...and so when you see that kind of stuff, it's like at most a flirtation. When he's asking if she has a boyfriend back home, like that's pretty much it, after that there's not a lot that, you know..."
"To me, in reality, I wouldn't see someone in a hospital kissing someone's forehead and think 'get a room'"

http://roguewon.podbean.com/e/episode-6-now-this-is-rogue-winning/
@BastilaBey

Wow, more Finnrey wreckage.

I really hope Rian takes LOTR approach and doesn't entwine separate plots in VIII. It would be super bold and different.

I don't care who thinks or wants what, what matters is that Reylo idea is becoming less and less Romance That Must Not Be Named and more something that's inevitable. I understand that they are confused how's Kylo going to bounce back from killing Han, which is natural whether you have OT goggles or not. But yeah, Reylo has come a long way.

If anyone has time to transcribe more, that will be great and I'll archive it with a credit. I archived this in Spoilers.

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Post by Kessel on Fri 27 May 2016, 7:35 pm

@BastilaBey wrote:
@Xylo Ren wrote:@BastilaBey

Hmmm, mixed thoughts on this podcast. It's just interesting to listen to because I could see some things going both ways too, especially with the Luke stuff. Some think he won't die because they can't kill another OT, some think he has to die like Obi Wan. Some think he'll battle Snoke, some don't. I don't think he'll battle Snoke, it just hasn't been set up like that. Can anyone picture Snoke battling Luke and killing him like Vader to Obi Wan? Sacrificing himself so Kylo gets mad and turns on Snoke?

A couple of them can see Kylo being redeemed, the one guy (Jason? Idk) was like "Euch!"

Their romance talk made my eyes roll. Ehem
@Xylo Ren

The guy who insists that Luke is going to battle Kylo and Snoke clearly has his OT hero goggles on. Jason repeatedly says Rey is our heroine now, and...we just heard about a scene in which Kylo comes to Ahch-to and doesn't go for Luke, he goes for Rey! That tells us the Luke thing isn't going to happen, because he's not the center of this story.

The idea of 'Ben Solo' being the future hero of another trilogy obviously sounds unrealistic but they were throwing out ideas, and that guy who said that made it clear it would be Rey who 'redeemed him'. Sigh...it amazes me how so many people get redemption and forgiveness mixed up, even Star Wars fans. Luke did not redeem Vader, he forgave him. Vader redeemed himself.
@BastilaBey

Exactly, a lot people do seem to think redemption is something that's given (like forgiveness), but it's not. Kylo's redemption will come from his own choices, not from Rey or anyone else forgiving him, saving him or pulling him back to the light. What Rey can be is the catalyst for his change who will open his eyes; much like Han's death will likely do as well, and maybe Leia (although we don't knew yet).

Luke will be involved, but he's not the main character anymore. This is Rey's story, and Kylo's too. It's pretty clear that Rey and Kylo's dynamic is going to evolve in Episode VIII. If Rey is now against kiling Kylo, something has changed because from what we saw in TFA, you'd think she'd be more than willing to kill him if it would supposedly "save the Galaxy" and help her new friends...something interesting will happen.

Btw, I agree with everyone commenting on the Ireland pics. This movie is going to be visually stunning and Rey and Kylo are going to be right in the middle of it! Smile


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Post by Saracene on Fri 27 May 2016, 8:06 pm

Just a thought, but maybe Rey is actually onboard with killing Kylo at the very start of the movie, but her feelings change by mid-point. I mean, all this stuff about dark!Luke is great and could make for a rich character arc, but I really wouldn't Rey to just be this Miss Fix It who shows the Skywalker men the error of their ways and has no real character arc of her own.
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Post by BastilaBey on Fri 27 May 2016, 8:08 pm

@Saracene wrote:Just a thought, but maybe Rey is actually onboard with killing Kylo at the very start of the movie, but her feelings change by mid-point. I mean, all this stuff about dark!Luke is great and could make for a rich character arc, but I really wouldn't Rey to just be this Miss Fix It who shows the Skywalker men the error of their ways and has no real character arc of her own.
@Saracene

I think it either has to tie in with what else she saw in Kylo's head during the interrogation - the mSW guys said this would have 'ramifications' in VIII - or, if there is a force bond, she will see memories and thoughts that make her compassionate and sympathetic towards him over the first act.

By the way, another section of the podcast that I didn't transcribe but will paraphrase:

After they'd been talking about finn and rey for a while and Jason said it's not a romance and about him possibly having one with Tran, one of the other guys from rogue won said maybe JJ had left it openended so they could decide to pursue it if it was really popular with the audience. Jason was polite but basically said there's no way, the script for viii was pretty much written before TFA came out. They just aren't going to make changes like that, they will tell the story they want and perhaps add little things like more bb-8 if they work well.

I think if anyone believes Rian Johnson will have been gauging audience reactions to things in order to make major changes, particularly concerning any potential romances, they are mistaken. It doesn't seem to be how it works on these types of projects, romances in SW aren't written in casually but are critical to character arcs and the overall direction of the story.
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Post by vaderito on Fri 27 May 2016, 8:15 pm

From Jason Ward's Roguewon podcast:

@BastilaBey


I didn't transcribe this bit, but after they'd been talking about finn and rey for a while and Jason said it's not a romance and about him possibly having one with Tran, one of the other guys from rogue won said maybe JJ had left it openended so they could decide to pursue it if it was really popular with the audience. Jason was polite but basically said there's no way, the script for viii was pretty much written before TFA came out. They just aren't going to make changes like that, they will tell the story they want and perhaps add more bb-8 or poe if they work well. That's all, it's not going to be a central romance that changes - especially one tied in with the redemption of the legacy boy! Honestly...

All of this plus they aren't a popular ship. Most people saw them for what they are - just friends - while agenda pushers only care for their agenda even though they see that relationship is totally un-romantic and a-sexual.

Guys, I have a crazy thought. If VIII is going to be Rey, Kylo, Snoke together on Ahch-to what if IX is inversion so we get Rey, Kylo, Snoke on whatever planet?
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Post by MeadowofAshes on Fri 27 May 2016, 9:47 pm

@vaderito wrote:From Jason Ward's Roguewon podcast:

@BastilaBey


I didn't transcribe this bit, but after they'd been talking about finn and rey for a while and Jason said it's not a romance and about him possibly having one with Tran, one of the other guys from rogue won said maybe JJ had left it openended so they could decide to pursue it if it was really popular with the audience. Jason was polite but basically said there's no way, the script for viii was pretty much written before TFA came out. They just aren't going to make changes like that, they will tell the story they want and perhaps add more bb-8 or poe if they work well. That's all, it's not going to be a central romance that changes - especially one tied in with the redemption of the legacy boy! Honestly...

All of this plus they aren't a popular ship. Most people saw them for what they are - just friends - while agenda pushers only care for their agenda even though they see that relationship is totally un-romantic and a-sexual.

Guys, I have a crazy thought. If VIII is going to be Rey, Kylo, Snoke together on Ahch-to what if IX is inversion so we get Rey, Kylo, Snoke on whatever planet?
@vaderito

Okay, I've had this thought in the back of my head for a while now that if Yin/Yang is the theme here and Ep VIII has them exploring ruins on Ahch-To where the first Jedi temple is, then wouldn't it make sense to go to the depths of Hell (aka Morraband, Sith homeworld Mwehe) for some Dark Side relic?
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Post by ISeeAnIsland on Fri 27 May 2016, 10:01 pm

@MeadowofAshes wrote:
@vaderito wrote:From Jason Ward's Roguewon podcast:

@BastilaBey


I didn't transcribe this bit, but after they'd been talking about finn and rey for a while and Jason said it's not a romance and about him possibly having one with Tran, one of the other guys from rogue won said maybe JJ had left it openended so they could decide to pursue it if it was really popular with the audience. Jason was polite but basically said there's no way, the script for viii was pretty much written before TFA came out. They just aren't going to make changes like that, they will tell the story they want and perhaps add more bb-8 or poe if they work well. That's all, it's not going to be a central romance that changes - especially one tied in with the redemption of the legacy boy! Honestly...

All of this plus they aren't a popular ship. Most people saw them for what they are - just friends - while agenda pushers only care for their agenda even though they see that relationship is totally un-romantic and a-sexual.

Guys, I have a crazy thought. If VIII is going to be Rey, Kylo, Snoke together on Ahch-to what if IX is inversion so we get Rey, Kylo, Snoke on whatever planet?
@vaderito

Okay, I've had this thought in the back of my head for a while now that if Yin/Yang is the theme here and Ep VIII has them exploring ruins on Ahch-To where the first Jedi temple is, then wouldn't it make sense to go to the depths of Hell (aka Morraband, Sith homeworld Mwehe) for some Dark Side relic?
@MeadowofAshes

And wasn't Rakata Prime brought back into canon fairly recently?
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Post by vaderito on Sat 28 May 2016, 11:17 am

Well, Jason Ward says this in RogueWon podcast:

Rey and Kylo Ren's fight is the actual drama, that's the focal point' - Jason says this after the interviewer gushes about Luke being a bad*** and killing KoR

We need transcript. Not the whole thing but most important stuff. But, anyway, this is a very good news for Reylo. They are the focal point, the actual drama. Luke bada**ery is for cheers but the heart of the movie are Rey and Kylo. And that's how it should be.



Last edited by vaderito on Sat 28 May 2016, 11:21 am; edited 1 time in total
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Post by BastilaBey on Sat 28 May 2016, 11:40 am

@vaderito wrote:Well, Jason Ward says this in RogueWon podcast:

Rey and Kylo Ren's fight is the actual drama, that's the focal point' - Jason says this after the interviewer gushes about Luke being a bad*** and killing KoR

We need transcript. Not the whole thing but most important stuff. But, anyway, this is a very good news for Reylo. They are the focal point, the actual drama. Luke bada**ery is for cheers but the heart of the movie are Rey and Kylo. And that's how it should be.

@vaderito

Yes, both Jason and Randy said that Luke killing the KoR seems like a device that essentially stops Luke from helping Rey because the 'story is Rey and Kylo' whereas Luke and the KoR is more of a 'spectacle'. It basically echoes their comments in the podcast earlier this week about it being fan service, even if it will be well-executed.

It reminds me of the snow fight and how that was sliced with the X-wings blowing up SKB.
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Post by vaderito on Sat 28 May 2016, 11:48 am

@BastilaBey wrote:
@vaderito wrote:Well, Jason Ward says this in RogueWon podcast:

Rey and Kylo Ren's fight is the actual drama, that's the focal point' - Jason says this after the interviewer gushes about Luke being a bad*** and killing KoR

We need transcript. Not the whole thing but most important stuff. But, anyway, this is a very good news for Reylo. They are the focal point, the actual drama. Luke bada**ery is for cheers but the heart of the movie are Rey and Kylo. And that's how it should be.

@vaderito

Yes, both Jason and Randy said that Luke killing the KoR seems like a device that essentially stops Luke from helping Rey because the 'story is Rey and Kylo' whereas Luke and the KoR is more of a 'spectacle'. It basically echoes their comments in the podcast earlier this week about it being fan service, even if it will be well-executed.

It reminds me of the snow fight and how that was sliced with the X-wings blowing up SKB.

@BastilaBey

Great point about X wings (spectacle) vs snow fight (real story). yep, that's it though I expect Luke vs KoR to be fun unlike X Wing snooze.

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Post by Maria Antonietta on Sat 28 May 2016, 5:21 pm

So I've read the podcast summary again, Jason is reassuring me. Ok, I'm good and calm
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Post by Little_Boots on Sat 28 May 2016, 5:23 pm

@Maria Antonietta wrote:So I've read the podcast summary again, Jason is reassuring me. Ok, I'm good and calm
@Maria Antonietta

All is well, all is peaceful, all is well all is peaceful.....

*TURN TAPE OVER*

*turns tape over***

"All iswell, all is peaceful, all is well, all is peaceful "


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Post by FrolickingFizzgig on Sat 28 May 2016, 8:10 pm

@Saracene wrote:
@Darth Dingbat wrote:@FrolickingFizzgig: Fair enough, but my point really is that there isn't just one and only story that COULD be told.

For example, it's of course perfectly valid if:

Version A: Kylo has regressed deeper into the Dark Side. He whips himself up into a fanatical desire to kill Rey. Big twist: When it turns out that he can't bring himself to kill Rey.

But it could just as easily be:

Version B: The events of SKB were a turning point for Kylo, in the sense of clarifying his mysterious mission and how it is to be accomplished. The effects of Han's death proved that his earlier course of action was tragically misguided. Now he had a moment of realisation and sees there is another, better way. In Episode VIII, he accepts the call, and it is the beginning of a new direction. Big twist: When it turns out that Kylo's mysterious mission is something unexpected.

See what I mean? There are different stories that might be told here, and not all of them require that Kylo must regress for character development to take place.
@Darth Dingbat

Thing is, Version A just sounds so much more Star Wars-y. It's simple, direct, has an emotional punch (and is melodramatic as heck, let's be honest). It's telling that Version B takes three times longer to outline and is a lot more vague. Plus Kylo just doesn't strike me as a man with some grand mission - he seems much more like someone driven by personal factors. The only thing in the movie that suggests a mission is the "I will finish what you started" line, but I bet even the writers couldn't explain what it actually means. Like, are we going to find out about some grand plan of Darth Vader's that somehow was never explained in the OT and that only his grandson knows about it? Way convoluted IMO.

Re: Rey's side in their duel in Episode VIII, I think it's a tad premature to assume that her role in it is going to be the same as in TFA, i.e. good innocent heroine chased by the bad guy. If the rumour about dark!Luke who tells Rey that she must kill Kylo is correct, that already changes things and gives Rey a mission, even if it's the one she doesn't welcome.
@Saracene
Not only is Version A more Star Wars-y, simpler and more compelling (IMO), it serves as a much better continuation to the narrative that has already begun. It's perfect if you ask me. It just "works". Version B could work if—and only if—Kylo was the main character, but he isn't. Rey is, and while I think we all agree that Rey's story will partly revolve around Kylo, it can't become his. He is her villain, her obstacle, her potential love-interest.

Jason from MSW actually brought up something amazing in that podcast. It appears as though Luke has given up hope on his nephew, but Luke's ideology is not the one that will have to win out in the end anymore. Luke feels Kylo must be put down, but Rey disagrees. Who will be right in the end? Rey of course, or heroine, the non-Skywalker protagonist who is going to becoming entangled in Skywalker drama. Luke was right about his father. Rey will be right about Kylo as well. That's Star Wars.
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Post by BastilaBey on Sat 28 May 2016, 8:18 pm

@FrolickingFizzgig wrote:
@Saracene wrote:
@Darth Dingbat wrote:@FrolickingFizzgig: Fair enough, but my point really is that there isn't just one and only story that COULD be told.

For example, it's of course perfectly valid if:

Version A: Kylo has regressed deeper into the Dark Side. He whips himself up into a fanatical desire to kill Rey. Big twist: When it turns out that he can't bring himself to kill Rey.

But it could just as easily be:

Version B: The events of SKB were a turning point for Kylo, in the sense of clarifying his mysterious mission and how it is to be accomplished. The effects of Han's death proved that his earlier course of action was tragically misguided. Now he had a moment of realisation and sees there is another, better way. In Episode VIII, he accepts the call, and it is the beginning of a new direction. Big twist: When it turns out that Kylo's mysterious mission is something unexpected.

See what I mean? There are different stories that might be told here, and not all of them require that Kylo must regress for character development to take place.
@Darth Dingbat

Thing is, Version A just sounds so much more Star Wars-y. It's simple, direct, has an emotional punch (and is melodramatic as heck, let's be honest). It's telling that Version B takes three times longer to outline and is a lot more vague. Plus Kylo just doesn't strike me as a man with some grand mission - he seems much more like someone driven by personal factors. The only thing in the movie that suggests a mission is the "I will finish what you started" line, but I bet even the writers couldn't explain what it actually means. Like, are we going to find out about some grand plan of Darth Vader's that somehow was never explained in the OT and that only his grandson knows about it? Way convoluted IMO.

Re: Rey's side in their duel in Episode VIII, I think it's a tad premature to assume that her role in it is going to be the same as in TFA, i.e. good innocent heroine chased by the bad guy. If the rumour about dark!Luke who tells Rey that she must kill Kylo is correct, that already changes things and gives Rey a mission, even if it's the one she doesn't welcome.
@Saracene
Not only is Version A more Star Wars-y, simpler and more compelling (IMO), it serves as a much better continuation to the narrative that has already begun. It's perfect if you ask me. It just "works". Version B could work if—and only if—Kylo was the main character, but he isn't. Rey is, and while I think we all agree that Rey's story will partly revolve around Kylo, it can't become his. He is her villain, her obstacle, her potential love-interest.

Jason from MSW actually brought up something amazing in that podcast. It appears as though Luke has given up hope on his nephew, but Luke's ideology is not the one that will have to win out in the end anymore. Luke feels Kylo must be put down, but Rey disagrees. Who will be right in the end? Rey of course, or heroine, the non-Skywalker protagonist who is going to becoming entangled in Skywalker drama. Luke was right about his father. Rey will be right about Kylo as well. That's Star Wars.
@FrolickingFizzgig

Jason's comments there were very revealing. Because even as he personally still doesn't see how he could be redeemed after killing Han, he acknowledges that Rey refusing to kill him has to be the right decision. Luke needs to be wrong in order for this to be truly a story for our heroine. So he's conceding that redemption and forgiveness, at least on the part of our heroine, is inevitable.
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Post by Saracene on Sat 28 May 2016, 8:38 pm

@FrolickingFizzgig wrote:Jason from MSW actually brought up something amazing in that podcast. It appears as though Luke has given up hope on his nephew, but Luke's ideology is not the one that will have to win out in the end anymore. Luke feels Kylo must be put down, but Rey disagrees. Who will be right in the end? Rey of course, or heroine, the non-Skywalker protagonist who is going to becoming entangled in Skywalker drama. Luke was right about his father. Rey will be right about Kylo as well. That's Star Wars.
@FrolickingFizzgig

That's a great point. I bet many Luke fanboys are going to haaaaate the idea that Rey is in the right and their hero is in the wrong, but well, tough, he's not the main character anymore.
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Post by FrolickingFizzgig on Sat 28 May 2016, 8:45 pm

@Saracene wrote:
@FrolickingFizzgig wrote:Jason from MSW actually brought up something amazing in that podcast. It appears as though Luke has given up hope on his nephew, but Luke's ideology is not the one that will have to win out in the end anymore. Luke feels Kylo must be put down, but Rey disagrees. Who will be right in the end? Rey of course, or heroine, the non-Skywalker protagonist who is going to becoming entangled in Skywalker drama. Luke was right about his father. Rey will be right about Kylo as well. That's Star Wars.
@FrolickingFizzgig

That's a great point. I bet many Luke fanboys are going to haaaaate the idea that Rey is in the right and their hero is in the wrong, but well, tough, he's not the main character anymore.
@Saracene
Mark Hamill said himself that Luke was relegated to more of an Obi-Wan role in this trilogy. What did Obi-Wan do again in the OT? Oh right.
Luke: There is still good in him.
Obi-Wan: He's more machine now than man. Twisted and evil.
Luke: I can't do it, Ben.
Obi-Wan: You cannot escape your destiny. You must face Darth Vader again.
Luke: I can't kill my own father!
Obi-Wan: [resigned] Then the Emperor has already won.
And Obi-Wan was wrong. History repeats, lessons have to be taught and learned with every generation. Narrative irony at its finest. Also it looks like we're getting this repetition far earlier than we did in the OT (in the second film rather than the third). Interesting.
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Post by snufkin on Sat 28 May 2016, 11:34 pm

@Saracene wrote:
@FrolickingFizzgig wrote:Jason from MSW actually brought up something amazing in that podcast. It appears as though Luke has given up hope on his nephew, but Luke's ideology is not the one that will have to win out in the end anymore. Luke feels Kylo must be put down, but Rey disagrees. Who will be right in the end? Rey of course, or heroine, the non-Skywalker protagonist who is going to becoming entangled in Skywalker drama. Luke was right about his father. Rey will be right about Kylo as well. That's Star Wars.
@FrolickingFizzgig

That's a great point. I bet many Luke fanboys are going to haaaaate the idea that Rey is in the right and their hero is in the wrong, but well, tough, he's not the main character anymore.

I  try to not be judgemental in general when people have a different take on things than I do. But the fact that people have on blinders to the point of thinking TFA was warm up for Luke's Heroic Adventures 2.0 in which he and his plucky sidekick kill his evil nephew makes me want to bust out some Nora Charles level side eye

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Post by spacebaby45678 on Sun 29 May 2016, 3:33 am

@Kylo Ren wrote:
@FrolickingFizzgig wrote:
@Saracene wrote:
@Darth Dingbat wrote:@FrolickingFizzgig: Fair enough, but my point really is that there isn't just one and only story that COULD be told.

For example, it's of course perfectly valid if:

Version A: Kylo has regressed deeper into the Dark Side. He whips himself up into a fanatical desire to kill Rey. Big twist: When it turns out that he can't bring himself to kill Rey.

But it could just as easily be:

Version B: The events of SKB were a turning point for Kylo, in the sense of clarifying his mysterious mission and how it is to be accomplished. The effects of Han's death proved that his earlier course of action was tragically misguided. Now he had a moment of realisation and sees there is another, better way. In Episode VIII, he accepts the call, and it is the beginning of a new direction. Big twist: When it turns out that Kylo's mysterious mission is something unexpected.

See what I mean? There are different stories that might be told here, and not all of them require that Kylo must regress for character development to take place.
@Darth Dingbat

Thing is, Version A just sounds so much more Star Wars-y. It's simple, direct, has an emotional punch (and is melodramatic as heck, let's be honest). It's telling that Version B takes three times longer to outline and is a lot more vague. Plus Kylo just doesn't strike me as a man with some grand mission - he seems much more like someone driven by personal factors. The only thing in the movie that suggests a mission is the "I will finish what you started" line, but I bet even the writers couldn't explain what it actually means. Like, are we going to find out about some grand plan of Darth Vader's that somehow was never explained in the OT and that only his grandson knows about it? Way convoluted IMO.

Re: Rey's side in their duel in Episode VIII, I think it's a tad premature to assume that her role in it is going to be the same as in TFA, i.e. good innocent heroine chased by the bad guy. If the rumour about dark!Luke who tells Rey that she must kill Kylo is correct, that already changes things and gives Rey a mission, even if it's the one she doesn't welcome.
@Saracene
Not only is Version A more Star Wars-y, simpler and more compelling (IMO), it serves as a much better continuation to the narrative that has already begun. It's perfect if you ask me. It just "works". Version B could work if—and only if—Kylo was the main character, but he isn't. Rey is, and while I think we all agree that Rey's story will partly revolve around Kylo, it can't become his. He is her villain, her obstacle, her potential love-interest.

Jason from MSW actually brought up something amazing in that podcast. It appears as though Luke has given up hope on his nephew, but Luke's ideology is not the one that will have to win out in the end anymore. Luke feels Kylo must be put down, but Rey disagrees. Who will be right in the end? Rey of course, or heroine, the non-Skywalker protagonist who is going to becoming entangled in Skywalker drama. Luke was right about his father. Rey will be right about Kylo as well. That's Star Wars.
@FrolickingFizzgig @saracene edited to add: @Queen of the Knights too
I respect your arguments but:
I completely disagree...Kylo is the main character of ST...together with Rey...but him more so...SW us the saga about the Skywalkers...who is the Last Skywalker? And what better story then his fall from grace and return to it?
Simple narative you say...what will they fill 5 more hours of screen time with...we already have seen Kylo's strugles with the light...now it's time to get his background story...find out if he had visions too and how he fell back to darkness...what the hell happened at the Academy...and most importantly...how does he know about the girl...IMO, if they make him do more bad stuff after killing Han that would cheapen  Han's sacrifice...that is the pivotal moment of the ST and it's importance would be diminished if it didn't fullfill it's purpose...to save his son....
At least that's the way I see it...and what I want to see...hope I'm right...

@Darth Dingbat I wanna see B more...what do you think Dingle?

@slade
I feel women are fixated on Adam Driver's Kylo Ren's ears because they see it as another source of his vulnerablity...something that he may be conscious about...or have been in the past and they just want to kiss it and make it all better...make him feel that they love something that he might be ashamed of as a way of making him feel better about himself....it's such a womanly thing to do, IMO....women are suckers for compassion and rectification of bad emmotions and most of all vulnerable powerfull men than are honest about their feelings...all of them...the good...and the bad....that's why most women want him to be redeemed and forgiven...just to stop that tearing apart that such a cutie feels deep down...

I feel that while men are very visual creatures and generally enjoy (at least at first look) a certain stereotype of a woman (slim, big boobed, slightly trashy, blond?), women (generally) tend to look more what's behind the appearance...specially if the outside is not that bad (like AD is)..because nothing is more hot than finding a man who is smart, funny, honest and deep AND also handsome....tall, dark and handsome is a saying for a reason..couple that with smart and deep and we're in trouble (we, the women)...cuz you know...most good looking guys are shallow (since they never needed to be too deep to get laid)....I think it's just the way we're coded...men hunters, women gatherers...not that there are not exceptions to that general rule on each side....just I think the exceptions are rare....Adam Driver is one such exception...but his handsomnes came later in life....he was not hadnsome teen...KyloKylo Ren knows how sexy he is...and the female FO officers too...that's why he is no virgin....

Me for one, I did not find Kylo Ren hot at all on that spoiler image in the snow that was released before TFA..looked very EmoKyloRen to me...it is his character on the inside that had me enthralled...true...even if we did not see his face we saw his demeanor and posture and the fact that he is physically strong and tall...but those were more mentall images of him (his persona) to me...facts that only emphasized that he is a powerful (stops laser bolts, read minds)...dangerous (you are so right *slash*, Kill them all) man... there is a reason why we see his strugles (He means nothing to me) and doubts  (Show me again the power of darkness....) and intrigue with the girl ( What Girl?!) before demasking....

And I honestly do not mean to offend men with expressing this opinion...it is my opinion...based on my personal experiences....I hope the post won't be eddited by admins since it was not meant as a critique or to make anyone feel bad... dunno why by they edit my posts somewhat Razz....If my reasoning is faulty I expect my points to be countered and further discussed...I have not problems with admiting I'm wrong...when I'm wrong Smile

@EchoBase
Seeeee? I am being spoilt again Wink
@Kylo Ren

Option A is not more Star Warsy? IMHO... Option B D or C , Kylo's motives for the moment are hidden. Hidden along with,

Why is Luke alone and in isolation?
What was Luke & Kylo doing for all of those years before he went dark?
Why is Kylo looking for Luke? Revenge? to Kill him? ( No just no)
What happened at the academy?
Why does Kylo know about the girl?
Why is Kylo on the darkside? Power? Renperor? Other motives we as the audience know nothing about.
Who is Snoke? Were did he come from?

But somehow the spoilers  know Kylo wants revenge on Rey? Given the facts we DON'T know, the odds that the spoilers are wrong are very high. EP 8 will be about answering these questions, and we the audience still don't know the core of this story, we are going to be in for a big twist.
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Post by FrolickingFizzgig on Sun 29 May 2016, 8:39 am

@Kylo Ren wrote:
@FrolickingFizzgig wrote:
@Saracene wrote:
@Darth Dingbat wrote:@FrolickingFizzgig: Fair enough, but my point really is that there isn't just one and only story that COULD be told.

For example, it's of course perfectly valid if:

Version A: Kylo has regressed deeper into the Dark Side. He whips himself up into a fanatical desire to kill Rey. Big twist: When it turns out that he can't bring himself to kill Rey.

But it could just as easily be:

Version B: The events of SKB were a turning point for Kylo, in the sense of clarifying his mysterious mission and how it is to be accomplished. The effects of Han's death proved that his earlier course of action was tragically misguided. Now he had a moment of realisation and sees there is another, better way. In Episode VIII, he accepts the call, and it is the beginning of a new direction. Big twist: When it turns out that Kylo's mysterious mission is something unexpected.

See what I mean? There are different stories that might be told here, and not all of them require that Kylo must regress for character development to take place.
@Darth Dingbat

Thing is, Version A just sounds so much more Star Wars-y. It's simple, direct, has an emotional punch (and is melodramatic as heck, let's be honest). It's telling that Version B takes three times longer to outline and is a lot more vague. Plus Kylo just doesn't strike me as a man with some grand mission - he seems much more like someone driven by personal factors. The only thing in the movie that suggests a mission is the "I will finish what you started" line, but I bet even the writers couldn't explain what it actually means. Like, are we going to find out about some grand plan of Darth Vader's that somehow was never explained in the OT and that only his grandson knows about it? Way convoluted IMO.

Re: Rey's side in their duel in Episode VIII, I think it's a tad premature to assume that her role in it is going to be the same as in TFA, i.e. good innocent heroine chased by the bad guy. If the rumour about dark!Luke who tells Rey that she must kill Kylo is correct, that already changes things and gives Rey a mission, even if it's the one she doesn't welcome.
@Saracene
Not only is Version A more Star Wars-y, simpler and more compelling (IMO), it serves as a much better continuation to the narrative that has already begun. It's perfect if you ask me. It just "works". Version B could work if—and only if—Kylo was the main character, but he isn't. Rey is, and while I think we all agree that Rey's story will partly revolve around Kylo, it can't become his. He is her villain, her obstacle, her potential love-interest.

Jason from MSW actually brought up something amazing in that podcast. It appears as though Luke has given up hope on his nephew, but Luke's ideology is not the one that will have to win out in the end anymore. Luke feels Kylo must be put down, but Rey disagrees. Who will be right in the end? Rey of course, or heroine, the non-Skywalker protagonist who is going to becoming entangled in Skywalker drama. Luke was right about his father. Rey will be right about Kylo as well. That's Star Wars.
@FrolickingFizzgig @saracene edited to add: @Queen of the Knights too
I respect your arguments but:
I completely disagree...Kylo is the main character of ST...together with Rey...but him more so...SW us the saga about the Skywalkers...who is the Last Skywalker? And what better story then his fall from grace and return to it?
Simple narative you say...what will they fill 5 more hours of screen time with...we already have seen Kylo's strugles with the light...now it's time to get his background story...find out if he had visions too and how he fell back to darkness...what the hell happened at the Academy...and most importantly...how does he know about the girl...IMO, if they make him do more bad stuff after killing Han that would cheapen  Han's sacrifice...that is the pivotal moment of the ST and it's importance would be diminished if it didn't fullfill it's purpose...to save his son....
At least that's the way I see it...and what I want to see...hope I'm right...
I don't really understand what you're arguing against from my post. That Rey isn't the main character? She is... this is a Skywalker story told through the eyes of a non-Skywalker. She is the "hero" on the Hero's Journey (or Heroine's Journey in this case). Rey is the type of hero who is used to explore a more complex deuteragonist, or secondary lead, not the other way around. That doesn't mean his backstory and drama won't be central to the narrative, but we're going to experience it through Rey rather than through Kylo. The audience's opinion of the character will be altered as Rey's is, with Rey serving as our eyes into the story and into Kylo Ren.

As for the rest, of course this is going to be the tale of Ben Solo's "return to grace". I never said otherwise. The truth behind the temple destruction, Ben's relationship with Snoke, his parents and Luke are all going to be hugely important parts of his backstory. He connects every major character and every part of the timeline together, with the exception of Rey's side of the story, which currently only involves her mysterious abandonment on Jakku.

Han's sacrifice was a pivotal moment for Kylo. It changed him to his core, but the effects of those changes will not manifest yet. Because Rey is the main protagonist it will be her grand moment with him that truly becomes the final nail in the coffin so to speak. That doesn't mean he'll do a bunch of awful things in VIII. I never said he would. VIII has to be the beginning of his redemption arc.

I really don't know what you were arguing against. Like everybody here, I'm a strong believer in redeemed Kylo and Reylo (in some capacity). Sad
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Post by EchoBase on Mon 30 May 2016, 4:19 pm

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Post by EchoBase on Mon 30 May 2016, 4:35 pm

Scroll to min 8.24. They are talking about the tiny locket size photo of Kylo (?) and Rey. According to the people who were there and reported, it should be Rey and the guys thinks that it is pretty weird, because if this is true then Kylo and Rey seem "to be chummy in that scene"....they still say it could be between takes, no mentioning of the height difference.
And then some mocking about the "reylos" who got excited about these photos because "they want Kylo and Rey to be together and have babies even if they are cousins". They were referring to Tumblr in particular, I think. So far, I am going to bed, maybe someone who is not that tired can transcribe?
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Post by EchoBase on Mon 30 May 2016, 4:37 pm

Min 12.49: they talk about the "chicken".
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Post by IoJovi on Mon 30 May 2016, 4:40 pm

@EchoBase wrote:Scroll to min 8.24. They are talking about the tiny locket size photo of Kylo (?) and Rey. According to the people who were there and reported, it should be Rey and the guys thinks that it is pretty weird, because if this is true then Kylo and Rey seem "to be chummy in that scene"....they still say it could be between takes, no mentioning of the height difference.
And then some mocking about the "reylos" who got excited about these photos because "they want Kylo and Rey to be together and have babies even if they are cousins". They were referring to Tumblr in particular, I think. So far, I am going to bed, maybe someone who is not that tired can transcribe?
@EchoBase

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that not everyone at MSW follows the story of available spoilers as closely as we do? If some of these people are still thinking these two are cousins at this point, what does that say?

I know Jason doesn't believe that, but he can't be the only person there who's in the know, can he?

I'm also thinking that they didn't really analyze these photos like we did if they still think that's Rey and Kylo hugging? It might be her, but that's not him...
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Post by EchoBase on Mon 30 May 2016, 4:46 pm

@IoJovi wrote:
@EchoBase wrote:Scroll to min 8.24. They are talking about the tiny locket size photo of Kylo (?) and Rey. According to the people who were there and reported, it should be Rey and the guys thinks that it is pretty weird, because if this is true then Kylo and Rey seem "to be chummy in that scene"....they still say it could be between takes, no mentioning of the height difference.
And then some mocking about the "reylos" who got excited about these photos because "they want Kylo and Rey to be together and have babies even if they are cousins". They were referring to Tumblr in particular, I think. So far, I am going to bed, maybe someone who is not that tired can transcribe?
@EchoBase

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that not everyone at MSW follows the story of available spoilers as closely as we do? If some of these people are still thinking these two are cousins at this point, what does that say?

I know Jason doesn't believe that, but he can't be the only person there who's in the know, can he?

I'm also thinking that they didn't really analyze these photos like we did if they still think that's Rey and Kylo hugging? It might be her, but that's not him...
@IoJovi

I had exactly the same thought. They didn't analyze the photos as much as we did.
And according to the "cousin thing". I think they were being ironic. But it also seems like some of them think that "Reylo" is ridiculous. At least, I've got that impression, I could be wrong though.



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