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Post by Guest on Tue 06 Sep 2016, 8:17 pm

@vaderito wrote:@Applecrumble122 "He has nothing" say fans who want Rey to be a Reywalker and unattached loner Jedi Goddess. Double standard if there was ever one. Luke's life isn't satisfying as a Jedi God without wife and little daughter Rey but Rey's life as just a Jedi Goddess w/o romance and family is totally awesome, progressive and perfect for a character who was dumped as a child and dreamed of having a family all her life.  Rolling Eyes

@vaderito Shocked That is one big double standard. But not all fans say that. Luke at his present point in time doesn't have anything. I want Rey to have romance and family in her life, but atm I do prefer Luke's story as it was in the EU (even though there are parts of it I don't like). It remains to be seen whether I'll prefer his EU story or his ST story.


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Post by vaderito on Tue 06 Sep 2016, 8:23 pm

@AppleCrumble122 Luke's life in ST is his choice. He has sister, brother in law, naughty nephew  Very Happy, had loving uncle and aunt who were his adoptive parents. So he had a lot. Rey had nothing. 

I think that they couldn't do justice to Luke and Mara in movies because age of actors. Han and Leia had their epic romance in OT so that was already there. So they changed Luke's life thus allowing fans of Luke and Mara to still have that couple. I think it's fair not to give him a canon wife when Mara is so beloved.
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Post by BastilaBey on Tue 06 Sep 2016, 8:24 pm

@vaderito wrote:@Applecrumble122 "He has nothing" say fans who want Rey to be a Reywalker and unattached loner Jedi Goddess. Double standard if there was ever one. Luke's life isn't satisfying as a Jedi God without wife and little daughter Rey but Rey's life as just a Jedi Goddess w/o romance and family is totally awesome, progressive and perfect for a character who was dumped as a child and dreamed of having a family all her life.  Rolling Eyes

I just want to refer to Heroine Journey podcast from the link I provided in previous post. Monomyth for heroes and heroines has some significant differences. One of them is Wedding the Animus phase that doesn't exist in Hero Monomyth. @reenydet mentioned Adam&Eve podcast also from the same link where it's explained that TFA showed this phase as metaphysical marriage and consummation of the marriage. So Jedi Goddess who doesn't need love is not gonna happen.
@vaderito

Right. The exact moment of 'wedding the animus' is up for debate, but perhaps it can be split between the interrogation scene and the snow fight. The descent is clearly when Kylo Ren abducts her and takes her to the icy 'underworld' of Starkiller Base.

Here's a visual meta that puts it all together pretty well too
http://felixazrael.tumblr.com/post/144794888180/reys-heroines-journey
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Post by Guest on Tue 06 Sep 2016, 8:29 pm

@vaderito wrote:@AppleCrumble122 Luke's life in ST is his choice. He has sister, brother in law, naughty nephew  Very Happy, had loving uncle and aunt who were his adoptive parents. So he had a lot. Rey had nothing. 

I think that they couldn't do justice to Luke and Mara in movies because age of actors. Han and Leia had their epic romance in OT so that was already there. So they changed Luke's life thus allowing fans of Luke and Mara to still have that couple. I think it's fair not to give him a canon wife when Mara is so beloved.
@vaderito

True, but I meant his position as it is now in the story.

I don't think it was age personally, but rather the emotional connection. EU fans read every step of Luke and Mara's romance and separate journeys as characters from the very moment Mara was introduced in Heir to the Empire. Introducing her in TFA, - regardless of whether alive or dead - in a separate universe with no history of her backstory or how she came to be with Luke would not not have the same emotional impact. Plus it would add more fuel to the Reywalker fire which is why I think they didn't give him a wife (which is fair enough in itself). However they still gave him a canon LI in Heir to the Jedi and it wasn't Mara, but a new character called Nakari. I still have hope that they'll reintroduce Mara in the books after the ST is over.

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Post by vaderito on Tue 06 Sep 2016, 8:31 pm

@BastilaBey wrote:


Right. The exact moment of 'wedding the animus' is up for debate, but perhaps it can be split between the interrogation scene and the snow fight. The descent is clearly when Kylo Ren abducts her and takes her to the icy 'underworld' of Starkiller Base.

Here's a visual meta that puts it all together pretty well too
http://felixazrael.tumblr.com/post/144794888180/reys-heroines-journey
@BastilaBey

Oh, wow, that's awesome! The descent is definitely Abduction and the name of the scene and score are likely to evoke Abduction of Persephone and Psyche. Yep, pinpointing "wedding the animus" is interesting. @MeadowofAshes you are expert in this matter, when did wedding the animus happen? Snow Fight was consumption of the metaphysical marriage, was interrogation wedding?
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Post by BastilaBey on Tue 06 Sep 2016, 8:37 pm

@vaderito Speaking to my own interpretation, it was the interrogation scene - particularly if the force bond theory holds water. They see each other's fears, things that nobody else knows. But then Daisy also said that cryptic thing about them finding the force together when she closed her eyes at the cliff edge. And because he can be considered the shadow and animus, defeating his mind probe and scarring him would be considered overcoming her 'trials'.

ARCHIVE: Discussion: Podcasts - 1 - Page 40 Tumblr_inline_o1yexyvJms1tmxsiy_500

If we look at this model, crossing the threshold is Rey entering the forest of Takodana. She leaves her friends and mentor behind, she's received the saber but refused the call and ran away from it. And she's confronted by the shadow/animus, who recognizes her as important too.

I think 'confronting the powerless father' relates to Luke, the start of episode VIII. And no, obviously he is not her father in a literal sense. But she has gone to him with some expectation - Leia has an expectation, too, that Luke can return and help them in the fight. But some posters here have speculated that Luke is not going to be particularly thrilled to see Rey, or have the answers she's looking for. I guess we'll see.
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Post by snufkin on Tue 06 Sep 2016, 8:45 pm

I think @Gemini had a post awhile back about how when he's carrying her across the threshold on to his Space Limo, the Stormtroopers who follow are like the Groomsmen who literally follow at the end of a traditional wedding ceremony.
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Post by vaderito on Tue 06 Sep 2016, 8:46 pm

@BastilaBey That's excellent!  cheers 

And she's confronted by the shadow/animus, who recognizes her as important too


The Heroine Finds Her True Partner
“He recognizes her, just as she recognizes him… If he is in his false or temporary form, the heroine must learn to see him correctly first. And sometimes he must learn to see her correctly, because she may be in disguise as well.”
These two quotes automatically reminded me of what novelization said about the interrogation, that they were startled by the energy that they recognized in each other and that passed between them. I don't have the actual quote but that's the one where they weren't adversaries for a moment. 
And, of course, "It is you" when he recognizes her as the awakening. 
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Post by BastilaBey on Tue 06 Sep 2016, 8:53 pm

@vaderito Yes, and when he finds her in the forest, he says 'there is something'. Could be her power, or some have speculated that just as she saw a vision of Kylo, he could have seen one before of her. He seemed awfully interested when Mitaka mentioned that bb and Finn were accompanied by 'a girl'. The animus recognizing his anima. And unlike Rey, he embraces the connection and offers to teach her, while she rejects it.

By the way, if you look at the model, 'winning the family' is kind of close to the end of the heroine journey. This might also indicate that we don't get too much of an answer to the Rey's parentage mystery until ix. Although it could also be part of the cliffhanger of VIII that has Rey going to Snoke for answers or something.
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Post by vaderito on Tue 06 Sep 2016, 8:58 pm

@snufkin wrote:I think @Gemini had a post awhile back about how when he's carrying her across the threshold on to his Space Limo, the Stormtroopers who follow are like the Groomsmen who literally follow at the end of a traditional wedding ceremony.
@snufkin

That's true and there's more:

Hades chariot with 4 horses

ARCHIVE: Discussion: Podcasts - 1 - Page 40 Image36

Descent into uderworld (there's literally fire like in hell):

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Groomsmen from the underworld:

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@BastilaBey

Yes, and when he finds her in the forest, he says 'there is something'. Could be her power, or some have speculated that just as she saw a vision of Kylo, he could have seen one before of her. He seemed awfully interested when Mitaka mentioned that bb and Finn were accompanied by 'a girl'. The animus recognizing his anima. And unlike Rey, he embraces the connection and offers to teach her, while she rejects it.


A-ha! Refusal of the call! There may be different kinds of calls. Also, Belle refuses Beast's marriage proposal several times until true love brings her back to him.

By the way, if you look at the model, 'winning the family' is kind of close to the end of the heroine journey. This might also indicate that we don't get too much of an answer to the Rey's parentage mystery until ix. Although it could also be part of the cliffhanger of VIII that has Rey going to Snoke for answers or something. 

Totally this. Since it looks like they are exploring Ben's past in this one, Rey's past has to be left for the last movie because that's going to be her ultimate temptation - old family or new one including love for Kylo.
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Post by snufkin on Tue 06 Sep 2016, 9:15 pm

All of that! Rey will be like "what happens on SKB stays on SKB" and tries to get a Force annulment on Ache-to. You know at some point when they're stuck together he'll drop "I thought we had something there" line on her.

Her backstory will be in IX and definitely tie in with Snoke. Like you say, he'll try to use that as a temptation versus whatever's developed between the two of them (and in turn, he'll face the temptation of choosing between her and moah powah). Or my thought after seeing TFA for the first time is that her abandonment/whatever happened to her family will be unfinished business to do with whatever the Empire (and eventually FO) was up to on Jakku. That's *if* the ESB scene between Vader and the Emperor is meant to parallel her story directly, because the discussion wasn't just about Luke being the Disturbance/Awakening but also the secret child of somebody (there is tension between Snoke and Ren, though it's more over his father).


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Post by Guest on Tue 06 Sep 2016, 11:26 pm

@BastilaBey wrote:@vaderito Speaking to my own interpretation, it was the interrogation scene - particularly if the force bond theory holds water. They see each other's fears, things that nobody else knows. But then Daisy also said that cryptic thing about them finding the force together when she closed her eyes at the cliff edge. And because he can be considered the shadow and animus, defeating his mind probe and scarring him would be considered overcoming her 'trials'.

ARCHIVE: Discussion: Podcasts - 1 - Page 40 Tumblr_inline_o1yexyvJms1tmxsiy_500

If we look at this model, crossing the threshold is Rey entering the forest of Takodana. She leaves her friends and mentor behind, she's received the saber but refused the call and ran away from it. And she's confronted by the shadow/animus, who recognizes her as important too.

I think 'confronting the powerless father' relates to Luke, the start of episode VIII. And no, obviously he is not her father in a literal sense. But she has gone to him with some expectation - Leia has an expectation, too, that Luke can return and help them in the fight. But some posters here have speculated that Luke is not going to be particularly thrilled to see Rey, or have the answers she's looking for. I guess we'll see.
@BastilaBey

I find that chart very interesting and have never analyzed it before, so please bear with me if this sounds silly - but what if "confronting the powerless father" refers to Kylo?

Kylo is - at first - more powerful than Rey because of his training and they have a battle (the interrogation scene) that could possibly tie into "wedding the animus" during which she defeats him and seems to channel knowledge of the Force from him.

In the snowy forest scene, Kylo struggles with the Force whereas she is now strong in it and better able to control it. She confronts the powerless father, who had previously been stronger than her until he became injured (physically and psychologically) and she'd absorbed some of his darkness.

Defeating the shadow - Snoke whispers in her head to finish off Kylo. She turns away from it, recognizing it as the way to the dark side. Can also mean the defeat of Kylo.

Atonement with the mother - the opposite of the powerless father who in this case represents the dark side. 'Mother' can symbolize Rey's choosing of the light as she fully rejects the darkness, finding her true path in spite of the conflict that came before it.

Reward: winning the family. I think this may be almost but not quite literal, as she finds her belonging with the Skywalkers and ultimately heads out to train with Luke. They're not her blood family but she has most definitely won a place with them, as well as her destiny to learn about the ways of the Force.

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Post by BastilaBey on Wed 07 Sep 2016, 12:06 am

@whatgirl I think that's a very interesting point about Kylo being considered infallible, but then revealed as powerless in the face of the heroine.

However, this is a passage by Valerie Frankel (who developed the model above and writes about how all sorts of fairytales fit it)



“During her journey the heroine must also confront the powerless and impotent Father (either personified as a father figure or as a representation of the patriarchy). On her road of trials she will discover that the Father is not all-powerful, or infallible. In fact, in many instances he is the perpetrator of the lie that our heroine needs to obey him to survive. Before she can truly participate in the Hieros Gamos, the sacred marriage of the masculine and feminine in herself, she must abandon the father and learn to look within for approval, to obey her own desires and intuition, and trust her own judgment. Therefore, the heroine will go through a series of trials and tests that reveal the “Father’s” impotence and destructive nature.”

This, to me, fits with what we know of the story so far concerning Luke and the rumors we've heard about VIII. In that much of TFA centered around hunting for Luke, with the characters seemingly under the impression that he would be able to solve their problems. Then, when Rey found him, he looked unhappy to see her, and as if he was carrying the weight of the world on his shoulders. And then we also have the rumors about viii, that he tells her she must kill Kylo - and even more interestingly - that Rey doesn't want to.

That Rey goes against the supposed wisdom of the father is everything, imo. Trusting her own instincts, or based on whatever visions or information she learns about Kylo that causes her to reassess her opinion of him, that's what positions her as the new hero, and Luke as the father - a supporting character who has become disillusioned. It's the role of the heroine to make things right again for him and his family, even if that means going against what he initially believes is best.
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Post by Guest on Wed 07 Sep 2016, 12:07 am

@BastilaBey wrote:@whatgirl I think that's a very interesting point about Kylo being considered infallible, but then revealed as powerless in the face of the heroine.

However, this is a passage by Valerie Frankel (who developed the model above and writes about how all sorts of fairytales fit it)



“During her journey the heroine must also confront the powerless and impotent Father (either personified as a father figure or as a representation of the patriarchy). On her road of trials she will discover that the Father is not all-powerful, or infallible. In fact, in many instances he is the perpetrator of the lie that our heroine needs to obey him to survive. Before she can truly participate in the Hieros Gamos, the sacred marriage of the masculine and feminine in herself, she must abandon the father and learn to look within for approval, to obey her own desires and intuition, and trust her own judgment. Therefore, the heroine will go through a series of trials and tests that reveal the “Father’s” impotence and destructive nature.”

This, to me, fits with what we know of the story so far concerning Luke and the rumors we've heard about VIII. In that much of TFA centered around hunting for Luke, with the characters seemingly under the impression that he would be able to solve their problems. Then, when Rey found him, he looked unhappy to see her, and as if he was carrying the weight of the world on his shoulders. And then we also have the rumors about viii, that he tells her she must kill Kylo - and even more interestingly - that Rey doesn't want to.

That Rey goes against the supposed wisdom of the father is everything, imo. Trusting her own instincts, or based on whatever visions or information she learns about Kylo that causes her to reassess her opinion of him, that's what positions her as the new hero, and Luke as the father - a supporting character who has become disillusioned. It's the role of the heroine to make things right again for him and his family, even if that means going against what he initially believes is best.
@BastilaBey

Oh my goodness! That is awesome! Write a meta on this I beg you! Wink

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Post by SoloSideCousin on Wed 07 Sep 2016, 1:34 am

AppleCrumble122 wrote:
@BastilaBey wrote:@whatgirl I think that's a very interesting point about Kylo being considered infallible, but then revealed as powerless in the face of the heroine.

However, this is a passage by Valerie Frankel (who developed the model above and writes about how all sorts of fairytales fit it)



“During her journey the heroine must also confront the powerless and impotent Father (either personified as a father figure or as a representation of the patriarchy). On her road of trials she will discover that the Father is not all-powerful, or infallible. In fact, in many instances he is the perpetrator of the lie that our heroine needs to obey him to survive. Before she can truly participate in the Hieros Gamos, the sacred marriage of the masculine and feminine in herself, she must abandon the father and learn to look within for approval, to obey her own desires and intuition, and trust her own judgment. Therefore, the heroine will go through a series of trials and tests that reveal the “Father’s” impotence and destructive nature.”

This, to me, fits with what we know of the story so far concerning Luke and the rumors we've heard about VIII. In that much of TFA centered around hunting for Luke, with the characters seemingly under the impression that he would be able to solve their problems. Then, when Rey found him, he looked unhappy to see her, and as if he was carrying the weight of the world on his shoulders. And then we also have the rumors about viii, that he tells her she must kill Kylo - and even more interestingly - that Rey doesn't want to.

That Rey goes against the supposed wisdom of the father is everything, imo. Trusting her own instincts, or based on whatever visions or information she learns about Kylo that causes her to reassess her opinion of him, that's what positions her as the new hero, and Luke as the father - a supporting character who has become disillusioned. It's the role of the heroine to make things right again for him and his family, even if that means going against what he initially believes is best.
@BastilaBey

Oh my goodness! That is awesome! Write a meta on this I beg you! Wink
@AppleCrumble122

Yeah, no kidding! Wow! :-)
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Post by Darth_Awakened on Wed 07 Sep 2016, 1:40 am

@SoloSideCousin wrote:
AppleCrumble122 wrote:
@BastilaBey wrote:@whatgirl I think that's a very interesting point about Kylo being considered infallible, but then revealed as powerless in the face of the heroine.

However, this is a passage by Valerie Frankel (who developed the model above and writes about how all sorts of fairytales fit it)



“During her journey the heroine must also confront the powerless and impotent Father (either personified as a father figure or as a representation of the patriarchy). On her road of trials she will discover that the Father is not all-powerful, or infallible. In fact, in many instances he is the perpetrator of the lie that our heroine needs to obey him to survive. Before she can truly participate in the Hieros Gamos, the sacred marriage of the masculine and feminine in herself, she must abandon the father and learn to look within for approval, to obey her own desires and intuition, and trust her own judgment. Therefore, the heroine will go through a series of trials and tests that reveal the “Father’s” impotence and destructive nature.”

This, to me, fits with what we know of the story so far concerning Luke and the rumors we've heard about VIII. In that much of TFA centered around hunting for Luke, with the characters seemingly under the impression that he would be able to solve their problems. Then, when Rey found him, he looked unhappy to see her, and as if he was carrying the weight of the world on his shoulders. And then we also have the rumors about viii, that he tells her she must kill Kylo - and even more interestingly - that Rey doesn't want to.

That Rey goes against the supposed wisdom of the father is everything, imo. Trusting her own instincts, or based on whatever visions or information she learns about Kylo that causes her to reassess her opinion of him, that's what positions her as the new hero, and Luke as the father - a supporting character who has become disillusioned. It's the role of the heroine to make things right again for him and his family, even if that means going against what he initially believes is best.
@BastilaBey

Oh my goodness! That is awesome! Write a meta on this I beg you! Wink
@AppleCrumble122

Yeah, no kidding! Wow! :-)
@SoloSideCousin

Woah! cheers cheers cheers cheers @BastilaBey

That s great! It definitely fits with everything we have speculated.
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Post by Darth_Awakened on Wed 07 Sep 2016, 5:38 am

Sorry for DP, but I just stumbled upon an old Pablo s tweet:

Pablo Hidalgo: “The story of [Ben’s] fall, when it started, how he reacted to what, etc. isn’t out there, so careful with assuming how it happened.” (May 9, 2016)

Interesting. Especially the bolded. And as well pretty much in the line of the latest speculations.


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