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Post by ZioRen on Sun 29 May 2016, 12:10 pm

I think Rian Johnson might do some serious work on Rey. It's already confirmed that Rey will be stumbling along more in VIII, hasn't it? I recall some interview where it was mentioned that some big event happens that rocks Rey's worldview, though I might just be remembering wrong.

As it stands, Kylo has the more interesting and tantalizing backstory and development. And I'll admit that I found Kylo to be a vastly more interesting character than Rey thus far. But in my eyes, very, very dark grey characters tend to outshine heroes no matter what, so that's nothing really specifically against Rey. And as nonesuch said, we're dropped into the middle of Kylo's story while Rey's is just beginning, so who knows where they'll take her.

I can get the fear that the 'female role model' character won't be allowed to be too flawed or hurt or struggle too much, particularly one that's breaking ground in such a huge franchise as Star Wars. But I have a feeling that this trilogy won't fall into that trap. Rey will shine yet!
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Post by MindAndMagic on Sun 29 May 2016, 12:17 pm

I always find antagonists more compelling. Especially if done well. Tbh, I'm so fascinated by Kylo that I almost tend to ignore everybody else even though I'm still looking forward to their development. It's just that he is without a doubt my favourite, the one I'm emotionally invested in and the one I'm rooting for. I wouldn't be at all interested in the story if he wasn't in it or if I didn't have high hopes for him. But, of course, everyone has different favourites and I'm sure they'll all have a chance to shine and have a fascinating individual journey!

Edit: Btw, I agree that it would be cool to see him maskless with the hood up. Wink


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Post by Reynak on Sun 29 May 2016, 12:21 pm

@MeadowofAshes wrote:
@Reynak wrote:What worries me is that there's a risk for her character to become just the eyes through which we'll see how everything happens, including Kylo's journey through hell and eventually towards redeption. She wasn't given much character development or a clear trajectory in TFA If she becomes only the POV through which we get to know what happens it will be a terrible waste of a character. She needs her own path and struggles to become a worthy protagonist.
@Reynak

IMHO she already isn't just the eyes through which we see the story any more than Luke Skywalker was just the eyes through which Anakin's redemption was experienced. We were presented her motivation during TFA. She longs for family/belonging because that is what she was missing on Jakku. I don't think her goal will change, just the means to the end. She'll come to see that Skywalker family (**cough cough** that she'll eventually marry into **cough cough**) plus her best friends Finn and Chewbacca (I guess Chewie's technically part of the family too though, right? Very Happy) are the belonging she seeks.

Just as a quick comparison:
Luke
Initial goals: Leave Tattooine for adventure and excitement. Rescue the princess.
Refusal to leave: Afraid to undertake his calling, Luke makes an excuse about being needed at home.
Motivating factor: Family on Tattooine destroyed. Forced onto Hero's Journey.
Goal shift: Occurs when father is revealed as Darth Vader. Continues his adventure in a different manner by seeking to bring his father back to the Light.

Rey
Initial goal: Find her family.
Refusal to leave: Insists she needs to stay on/get back to Jakku for family. Refuses the call of the Skywalker lightsaber.
Motivating factors: Droid needs to be delivered to Rebellion. Skywalker lightsaber calls to her. Finally takes up the call to the Heroine's Journey in defense of her friend against Kylo Ren by calling the Skywalker lightsaber to her.
Goal Shift: (prediction) Will occur when Rey develops compassion for Ben Solo and assists in his journey back to the Light.
@MeadowofAshes

The problem is that waiting for her family to return isn't exactly an exciting goal for a heroic protagonist. Another problem is that her quest seems to be about others. This may change, which I hope, but for the moment she has appeared mainly as a vehicle for other characters to be reached. She takes the droid to the Resistance and gets in touch with other characters who always seem more important than her. Many people thought Kylo should have unmasked for Han first, Leia should have hugged Chewie first and others expect E Vlll to be about Luke rather than about her.

I know why they did it because it is her story and not Luke's or Han's but the problem is there. If Han had stayed he would have obscured her completely, the same can be said of Luke if they aren't careful. I've read that Luke was going to appear earlier in TFA but it was decided he shouldn't because he would have seemed the main character and overshadowed the new ones.

I agree that protagonists are often less interesting than other characters in their stories but I never doubted who was the protagonist in HP, Harry was, although he wasn't the most exciting. The problem with Rey is that what happens to her and what she does never seems to be about her but about the Skywalkers. For Reywalkers she is Luke's daughter and for FinnReys she is Finn's amazing girl. Even for us, Kylo is more interesting than her ( at least he is for me, I have to admit). People spend more time wondering who her parents are than about Rey as a character. Finn decided his own fate, she only reacts to things that happen, she even abandons her only goal ( waiting for her family) to take BB8 where he must be.

Luke had his own story and I never felt he was just a vehicle for Anakin's redemption, I never expected Vader's redemption in the first place, and never doubted Luke was the protagonist of ANH. In TFA the introduction of the Trinity makes you wonder who is the protagonist, it could be Finn. Later you realise it is her but with Luke it was perfect, he was a perfect example of a character setting off on a hero's journey. He was not my favourite character, Han was, but I never doubted it was his story or that Harry was the protagonist in his.

Everything should be about Rey, her adventure, her LI, her quest, her story, but it wasn't. Luke was given the blue lightsaber and she only is the keeper who has to give it back to Luke, as if calling him back to the quest when this should already be her story, her quest and her lightsaber.

Han and Leia accepted her but because she will become important for her son. All this bothers me because she is a woman and it seems they haven't been able to focus the plot on her, the protagonist, the way it should. They made her likeable, Daisy was perfectly cast and she was made incredibly powerful, perhaps too powerful if the FB is not the reason for her skills. The problem for me is that she doesn't lead the story as much as she should, her story is too much about the Skyalker men, not focusing enough on her own story.

I want a story for her where she is the focus, like Scarlett O'Hara was in GWTW or Jane Eyre was in her story. But TFA wasn't written by a woman, perhaps male writers aren't so good at writing female characters as women writers are.

I want to like Rey, I do, but I have some concerns about the way she was written in TFA. I want a real heroine journey for her, one which is about Rey herself.


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Post by Kessel on Sun 29 May 2016, 12:52 pm

@ZioRen wrote:I think Rian Johnson might do some serious work on Rey. It's already confirmed that Rey will be stumbling along more in VIII, hasn't it? I recall some interview where it was mentioned that some big event happens that rocks Rey's worldview, though I might just be remembering wrong.

As it stands, Kylo has the more interesting and tantalizing backstory and development. And I'll admit that I found Kylo to be a vastly more interesting character than Rey thus far. But in my eyes, very, very dark grey characters tend to outshine heroes no matter what, so that's nothing really specifically against Rey. And as nonesuch said, we're dropped into the middle of Kylo's story while Rey's is just beginning, so who knows where they'll take her.

I can get the fear that the 'female role model' character won't be allowed to be too flawed or hurt or struggle too much, particularly one that's breaking ground in such a huge franchise as Star Wars. But I have a feeling that this trilogy won't fall into that trap. Rey will shine yet!
@ZioRen

I am excited to see where Episode VIII takes Rey because there's a lot of potential for real amazing growth for her character, especially in her interactions with Luke and Kylo.

I sometimes have my worries the TPTB may take it a little easy on Rey because of the "female role model" ideal you mentioned.  However, I have real hope that Rian Johnson and his storytelling will not be as beholden to the "perfect female role model" ideal or the nebulous "social responsibility" to show Rey as an upstanding example to little girls (a very sexist and presumptuous argument made by certain people).  I think Rian will provide Rey with the depth and character development she deserves.

That's what I hope, because she needs it.
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Post by Reynak on Sun 29 May 2016, 12:54 pm

@vaderito wrote:
@nonesuch wrote:  

I would respectfully disagree with that assessment of Rey's character. She isn't perfect. She is vulnerable - physically and emotionally - and that comes through in the film. She is essentially an indentured slave who is starved by her master, growing up on powdered food and being forced to fight and struggle to survive. She is vulnerable to capture, and only gets off Starkiller Base because her friends come to help her. She is dangerously quick to attach herself to others, and is heartbroken at the prospect of being left by a man she has only known for a few hours. All of those things suggest weaknesses and points of vulnerability that you wouldn't find in a character who was pure wish fulfilment. Rey is flawed and scarred by her early experiences, and I fully expect her character development in subsequent films to riff off that.

That all stands but is, IMO, overshadowed by wish-fulfillment elements and her completely baffling optimism in the wake of abandonment. That's some truly unrealistic and insincere characterization that sacyrifices personality for instant likability. they did the same thing with Finn's Storm Trooper In Name Only.

Also, based on how heroines are protected from embarrassment, silliness, real injuries, etc in action movies with a female lead, I expect the trend to continue. Rey won't fall on her butt or faceplant into mud unlike male heroes.
@vaderito

So much this, exactly. We don't need to like everything a protagonist does and they should make her relatable, not perfect and universally liked.
What makes Kylo so compelling is not how powerful he is but how relatable he is because he is imperfect and makes loads of mistakes. Scarlett was no cinnamon roll and had flaws, this is what Rey needs. I've read some Facebook comments written by males and the Mary Sue shadow hovers over Ray in their opinion. Too many of them say that and if they saw her like that perhaps there are problems with her characterization.

In fact she reminds me too much of The OC in facfiction that seem a vehicle for the writer or the readers to enjoy (vicariously) the attentions of the male lead and everybody elses' love and admiration.

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Post by Guest on Sun 29 May 2016, 1:59 pm

@vaderito wrote:yeah, Rey is a POV character so how Kylo goes from Dark to Dark and Light (I really hope he keeps both sides) will be told from her perspective. So when signs become visible to her they'll be visible to all audience (means that it won't be just micro expressions that'll show the change).
@vaderito

Agreed. What I've learned from studying Creative Writing in university is that the protagonist = our eyes. We are meant to see the story and the other characters from her point of view. And most of the time (albeit not always) the protagonist provides an accurate view and the way we are supposed to interpret or perceive things. If Rey's feelings begin to change and we are shown that, it is important and for a good reason. The other characters, even if they are good/heroic themselves, are allowed to disagree with the main heroine because in the end, it's not about them, it's her choices that matter. So Luke can go on as much as he likes about how it's too late for Ben, but if Rey does not feel the same way, then it's a huge telltale sign that Luke is the one who is wrong.

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Post by nonesuch on Sun 29 May 2016, 2:13 pm

@vaderito wrote:
@nonesuch wrote:  

I would respectfully disagree with that assessment of Rey's character. She isn't perfect. She is vulnerable - physically and emotionally - and that comes through in the film. She is essentially an indentured slave who is starved by her master, growing up on powdered food and being forced to fight and struggle to survive. She is vulnerable to capture, and only gets off Starkiller Base because her friends come to help her. She is dangerously quick to attach herself to others, and is heartbroken at the prospect of being left by a man she has only known for a few hours. All of those things suggest weaknesses and points of vulnerability that you wouldn't find in a character who was pure wish fulfilment. Rey is flawed and scarred by her early experiences, and I fully expect her character development in subsequent films to riff off that.

That all stands but is, IMO, overshadowed by wish-fulfillment elements and her completely baffling optimism in the wake of abandonment. That's some truly unrealistic and insincere characterization that sacrifices personality for instant likability. they did the same thing with Finn's Storm Trooper In Name Only.

Also, based on how heroines are protected from embarrassment, silliness, real injuries, etc in action movies with a female lead, I expect the trend to continue. Rey won't fall on her butt or faceplant into mud unlike male heroes.
@vaderito

Well, I don't think Rey is going to be insulated from pain and embarrassment moving forward. They've repeatedly commented that the characters will be severely "tested", and I expect that to be true of no one so much as Rey. Have faith in Rian Johnson - I trust him to go to interesting places.
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Post by snufkin on Sun 29 May 2016, 2:39 pm

@nonesuch wrote:
@vaderito wrote:
@nonesuch wrote:  

I would respectfully disagree with that assessment of Rey's character. She isn't perfect. She is vulnerable - physically and emotionally - and that comes through in the film. She is essentially an indentured slave who is starved by her master, growing up on powdered food and being forced to fight and struggle to survive. She is vulnerable to capture, and only gets off Starkiller Base because her friends come to help her. She is dangerously quick to attach herself to others, and is heartbroken at the prospect of being left by a man she has only known for a few hours. All of those things suggest weaknesses and points of vulnerability that you wouldn't find in a character who was pure wish fulfilment. Rey is flawed and scarred by her early experiences, and I fully expect her character development in subsequent films to riff off that.

That all stands but is, IMO, overshadowed by wish-fulfillment elements and her completely baffling optimism in the wake of abandonment. That's some truly unrealistic and insincere characterization that sacrifices personality for instant likability. they did the same thing with Finn's Storm Trooper In Name Only.

Also, based on how heroines are protected from embarrassment, silliness, real injuries, etc in action movies with a female lead, I expect the trend to continue. Rey won't fall on her butt or faceplant into mud unlike male heroes.
@vaderito

Well, I don't think Rey is going to be insulated from pain and embarrassment moving forward. They've repeatedly commented that the characters will be severely "tested", and I expect that to be true of no one so much as Rey. Have faith in Rian Johnson - I trust him to go to interesting places.
@nonesuch

I agree based on having seen Johnson's previous films, his female leads are as complicated as the male leads. Question is who will be the center of the story given that we'll get more information about what happened with Ben & Luke. What's going to be her function beyond being the buffer between them and having a moral/philosophical dispute with Luke about whether or not Ben deserves to die for his sins. Plus if it's been hinted at there's going to be sexual attraction, that automatically makes things more complicated. I wouldn't guess that she goes to the Darkside in terms of standard bad guy stuff but having all of the negative emotions she's had to keep bottled up in order to survive on Jakku start to come out once she's stuck on a island with two slightly nuts superpowerful Force users.
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Post by Maria Antonietta on Sun 29 May 2016, 2:46 pm

I love them both I love you
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Post by ISeeAnIsland on Sun 29 May 2016, 2:57 pm

@snufkin wrote:
@nonesuch wrote:
@vaderito wrote:
@nonesuch wrote:  

I would respectfully disagree with that assessment of Rey's character. She isn't perfect. She is vulnerable - physically and emotionally - and that comes through in the film. She is essentially an indentured slave who is starved by her master, growing up on powdered food and being forced to fight and struggle to survive. She is vulnerable to capture, and only gets off Starkiller Base because her friends come to help her. She is dangerously quick to attach herself to others, and is heartbroken at the prospect of being left by a man she has only known for a few hours. All of those things suggest weaknesses and points of vulnerability that you wouldn't find in a character who was pure wish fulfilment. Rey is flawed and scarred by her early experiences, and I fully expect her character development in subsequent films to riff off that.

That all stands but is, IMO, overshadowed by wish-fulfillment elements and her completely baffling optimism in the wake of abandonment. That's some truly unrealistic and insincere characterization that sacrifices personality for instant likability. they did the same thing with Finn's Storm Trooper In Name Only.

Also, based on how heroines are protected from embarrassment, silliness, real injuries, etc in action movies with a female lead, I expect the trend to continue. Rey won't fall on her butt or faceplant into mud unlike male heroes.
@vaderito

Well, I don't think Rey is going to be insulated from pain and embarrassment moving forward. They've repeatedly commented that the characters will be severely "tested", and I expect that to be true of no one so much as Rey. Have faith in Rian Johnson - I trust him to go to interesting places.
@nonesuch

I agree based on having seen Johnson's previous films, his female leads are as complicated as the male leads. Question is who will be the center of the story given that we'll get more information about what happened with Ben & Luke. What's going to be her function beyond being the buffer between them and having a moral/philosophical dispute with Luke about whether or not Ben deserves to die for his sins. Plus if it's been hinted at there's going to be sexual attraction, that automatically makes things more complicated. I wouldn't guess that she goes to the Darkside in terms of standard bad guy stuff but having all of the negative emotions she's had to keep bottled up in order to survive on Jakku start to come out once she's stuck on a island with two slightly nuts superpowerful Force users.
@snufkin

Things that I can possibly see for Rey that would shape her character arc:

* I assume that she'll want to seek out Force training of some kind, even if it's not as a traditional Jedi. She's just discovered this incredible power that she possesses--I think that it would be natural for her to want to learn more about it. It will be interesting to see her reaction if Luke doesn't want to train her or wants to limit her training (which I think could be highly possible, given what we've seen about Luke and heard via spoilers).
* I'm also guessing that we'll get a partial reveal of something related to her parentage, although I don't expect to get the whole story until IX (based on that CT interview and also that it just seems like a lot to cram into VIII, where I don't think that her parentage will be the focus). I do think we'll get a teaser, though to both appease the audience and plant a related motivation for Rey.
* The evolution of Rey's feelings towards Kylo is going to be a heck of a lot of fun to watch onscreen.


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Post by Gemini on Sun 29 May 2016, 2:58 pm

@Darth Dingbat wrote:P.S. Funnily enough, I got my Rey mug from Society6; the illustration is a beautiful painting made by a fan.

Because I couldn't find an official Rey mug anywhere.

Seriously, the lack of Rey merchandise is a disgrace.

I totally agree with you, it's so unbelievably sexist that the toy companies literally said "no boy wants a toy with a girl character"! I remember picking up monopoly and wondering where the hell rey was
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Post by ISeeAnIsland on Sun 29 May 2016, 3:01 pm

@Gemini wrote:
@Darth Dingbat wrote:P.S. Funnily enough, I got my Rey mug from Society6; the illustration is a beautiful painting made by a fan.

Because I couldn't find an official Rey mug anywhere.

Seriously, the lack of Rey merchandise is a disgrace.

I totally agree with you, it's so unbelievably sexist that the toy companies literally said "no boy wants a toy with a girl character"! I remember picking up monopoly and wondering where the hell rey was
@Darth Dingbat
@Gemini

Same thing with the Millenium Falcon playset, which my mom bought for my daughter. The MF came with Finn, Chewie, BB-8, and no Rey.
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Post by snufkin on Sun 29 May 2016, 3:22 pm

@ISeeAnIsland wrote:
@snufkin

Things that I can possibly see for Rey that would shape her character arc:

* I assume that she'll want to seek out Force training of some kind, even if it's not as a traditional Jedi. She's just discovered this incredible power that she possesses--I think that it would be natural for her to want to learn more about it. It will be interesting to see her reaction of Luke doesn't want to train or wants to limit her training (which I think could be highly possible, given what we've seen about Luke and heard via spoilers).
* I'm also guessing that we'll get a partial reveal of something related to her parentage, although I don't expect to get the whole story until IX (based on that CT interview and also that it just seems like a lot to cram into VIII, where I don't think that her parentage will be the focus). I do think we'll get a teaser, though to both appease the audience and plant a related motivation for Rey.
* The evolution of Rey's feelings towards Kylo is going to be a heck of a lot of fun to watch onscreen.
@ISeeAnIsland

There will definitely be something about her parentage to finally put the issue of Luke not being her father to rest. Even with the grousing about Mystery Box being her defining trait, a lot of it will be about who she really is. Both a question she's asking of herself -think of the theme in Doctor Who where every time he regenerates, there's always something about "what type of man am I?" Luke is her foil both for learning/developing her new powers but also how it impacts her morality. The evolution of feelings, besides the whole fun part, is in the debate she'll have with Luke and disagreeing/defying him. No matter what you can say about TFA, they did a very good job of showing that she is somebody who has a code. Not wanting to kill Ben, especially if she becomes privvy to his whole backstory/history, will either fall in line or test that moral code. And being around him in an uneasy truce will also be a great way to show some struggle/guilt because of her friendship and loyalty to Finn.

Also we know a certain someone has become obsessed with this young woman and also wants to know who she is, so there's that aspect of "Who is she?" that will come into play. Besides the "not my cousin, totally okay to mack" part.
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Post by SoloSideCousin on Sun 29 May 2016, 3:30 pm

@Reynak wrote:
@vaderito wrote:
@nonesuch wrote:  

I would respectfully disagree with that assessment of Rey's character. She isn't perfect. She is vulnerable - physically and emotionally - and that comes through in the film. She is essentially an indentured slave who is starved by her master, growing up on powdered food and being forced to fight and struggle to survive. She is vulnerable to capture, and only gets off Starkiller Base because her friends come to help her. She is dangerously quick to attach herself to others, and is heartbroken at the prospect of being left by a man she has only known for a few hours. All of those things suggest weaknesses and points of vulnerability that you wouldn't find in a character who was pure wish fulfilment. Rey is flawed and scarred by her early experiences, and I fully expect her character development in subsequent films to riff off that.

That all stands but is, IMO, overshadowed by wish-fulfillment elements and her completely baffling optimism in the wake of abandonment. That's some truly unrealistic and insincere characterization that sacyrifices personality for instant likability. they did the same thing with Finn's Storm Trooper In Name Only.

Also, based on how heroines are protected from embarrassment, silliness, real injuries, etc in action movies with a female lead, I expect the trend to continue. Rey won't fall on her butt or faceplant into mud unlike male heroes.

@vaderito


So much this, exactly. We don't need to like everything a protagonist does and they should make her relatable, not perfect and universally liked.
What makes Kylo so compelling is not how powerful he is but how relatable he is because he is imperfect and makes loads of mistakes. Scarlett was no cinnamon roll and had flaws, this is what Rey needs. I've read some Facebook comments written by males and the Mary Sue shadow hovers over Ray in their opinion. Too many of them say that and if they saw her like that perhaps there are problems with her characterization.

In fact she reminds me too much of The OC in facfiction that seem a vehicle for the writer or the readers to enjoy (vicariously) the attentions of the male lead and everybody elses' love and admiration.

@Reynak

This and a bunch of other posts above.  Rey may fit into some protagonist's slot, but I agree with whoever said it above ... She is no Harry Potter.  In those books you knew exactly whose eyes you were viewing the world through, and those eyes were Harry's.  Harry was relateable and real.  His powers came as a shock to him, something that was not nearly as well conveyed with Rey.  (Now of course Rowling a lot more time to work with, etc.).  But the point is, if Rey was so wonderfully fleshed out, we wouldn't even be having a disagreement about who the main character is.  I mean Hermione is awesome, but we always knew it was Harry's show.

I also agree with whoever said above that they did a better job with conveying that it was Luke's journey in the OT, as there were no obvious competitors in the Big 3.  However, in the end, though he was endearing and we cared that he wasn't hurt, Luke wasn't all that interesting to a lot of people (Han Solo and Vader frequently take that favorite spot) ... You know why? (1) Because both Han and Vader were written in a more interesting and compelling way.  But more importantly, (2) Because in the end the story was not about Luke.  It was about Vader.  Even GL said that the story of the first two trilogies were about Vader.  And when you look at them as a whole, he's absolutely right.  It was about Anakin's rise, fall, time in hell, and redemption.  Luke, though a hero on a journey, is in the larger scheme of things a vehicle used to tell Vader's journey.

Further, IMO, TFA does not lay out a single journey.  It lays out three.  It starts with the masks, with each one playing a role they do not belong in, and it's still ongoing from there.  Finn has a trajectory.  Rey has a trajectory.  Kylo has a trajectory.  But IMO Kylo's trajectory was absolutely the best written and the one that received the most focus.  Kasdan and Abrams are positively giddy about their creation of Kylo.  Moreover, Kylo connects to *everyone*.  He may not fit into some predetermined box, but it is absolutely his story at the moment, (and I suspect he will continue to be.  I will elaborate on that more below).

Rey and Finn's characterizations are highly unrealistic and thus unrelateable to a lot of people.  Finn is too well-adjusted and happy for his background.  Yes, it's fantasy and fairy tale and not a Scorsese film, but they tell us he was brainwashed with a bunch of other stolen guys, then he kills those guys without a second thought and then goes on to act like "the boy next door" when he should be a lot more like Peeta from The Hunger Games.  JB and his charisma are what sell that character and garner the Finn love, not the characterization.  Now I hope this was about part of the Comfort Food/"Let's Bring People Back" aspect of TFA and I hope RJ runs with his character possibilities in Episode VIII.

The same holds for Rey.  Her optimism is so incongruent with her situation that it actually takes me out of the moment with her, because she's either poorly written there or she is in a terrible state of almost mentally ill denial.  I think it's the former.  Her fixation to stay on the planet is also not realistic unless (1) she is caught in some bad psychological place or (2) she's been implanted with the thought to stay there.  The bad psychological place would be interesting ... except they don't follow through with it.  She too is remarkably well-adjusted for her background and is largely portrayed as such.   I mean we've already met an orphan in SW.  Han Solo.  And that characterization of how an scrappy orphan might turn out is very realistic and relateable.  Rey gets more in depth work than Finn does in how she shows capability for viciousness and violence and real darkness which does fit with her background, so as time goes on, particularly with her interactions with Kylo, she works better and becomes more compelling.  However, the fact that all people can frequently talk about is who her parents are is an indication that they did not close the sale on the characterization of Rey.

So to reiterate, I do think there are three journeys going on her.  Rey, Kylo, Finn.  However, in the end the story is about Kylo.  He is the Skywalker.  He is the Vader-role here.  He is the one everything comes down to.

Moreover, they may think they have put Rey in a protagonist's role, but at this point I do not need to see the world before me through her eyes.  Sure she's the spunky innocent who is discovering everything anew, but for me and I think a lot of other people, she doesn't grab the interest.  Kylo does. Han does. Even Leia does.  I am drawn to all of them and how they see things because they are the most reliable and well-constructed characters for me.

I will admit to being Kylo-centric for sure.  When I walked out the movie and people asked me about it, I said that "Kylo and Han are everything in the movie."  I would tell people that all the actors are great and that the new characters had potential, but I did not connect with Rey like I did with Harry Potter.  Now I am sure a lot of people did, as a lot of people did with Finn ... because it looks like we have three trajectories, not just one.  But if the intense Kylo focus, whether love or hate, whether in fanfiction or webpages, whether in media articles, is any indication, Kylo is winning that race.

There may have been an intention to make Rey top dog, but they have not succeeded in that yet.  To me, Kylo makes the movie.  All the questions that demand answering that have been listed above, all the questions that will determine the future of the ST ... the vast majority of them are about Kylo. He is the Skywalker.  He got the strongest actor IMO.  He is the center of it all, and until I see something different he is the main focus.  So @Kylo Ren, do you got room for another one in your outsider club?   Laughing  Laughing  Laughing
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Post by SoloSideCousin on Sun 29 May 2016, 3:34 pm

@ISeeAnIsland wrote:
@Gemini wrote:
@Darth Dingbat wrote:P.S. Funnily enough, I got my Rey mug from Society6; the illustration is a beautiful painting made by a fan.

Because I couldn't find an official Rey mug anywhere.

Seriously, the lack of Rey merchandise is a disgrace.

I totally agree with you, it's so unbelievably sexist that the toy companies literally said "no boy wants a toy with a girl character"! I remember picking up monopoly and wondering where the hell rey was
@Darth Dingbat
@Gemini

Same thing with the Millenium Falcon playset, which my mom bought for my daughter. The MF came with Finn, Chewie, BB-8, and no Rey.
@ISeeAnIsland

This is kind of off-topic, but I've had a lot of trouble getting an Astrid action figure for my daughter with the How to Train Your Dragon stuff. I don't even love Astrid particularly ... but if they have Snotlout for goodness sake, they need Astrid. I remember they always had Princess Leia when I was a kid.
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Post by ISeeAnIsland on Sun 29 May 2016, 3:49 pm

I love Kylo for the character he is and the character that he's hinted to be. And I'm confident that Adam will nail the role.

I love Rey for her character's potential. A lot of my optimism about her potential comes from what I saw from Daisy's performance in TFA.
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Post by MeadowofAshes on Sun 29 May 2016, 4:03 pm

@Reynak
Thanks for such a thoughtful response! I have a feeling a lot of this must be to personal taste, so please take this as me expressing a personal view rather than being argumentative. Smile

waiting for her family to return isn't exactly an exciting goal for a heroic protagonist. Another problem is that her quest seems to be about others. This may change

I personally find Rey and her initial goal of waiting for her family to be highly relatable, even if it's not what some would consider a grand heroine's journey. Rey's desire and her struggle is one many can relate to, especially women, I have a feeling. I know TFA meant a lot to me personally and was the perfect capstone to my 2015. I spent that year divorcing in the middle of a pregnancy. My marriage was garbage. But I had an idealized version of what my family was "supposed" to look like and I spent most of the year in denial and clinging to the junkheap that no longer fit my life. Not only this, but being displaced and on bedrest, thus unable to seek employment, also meant I struggled to make ends meet and worried how I'd support my children, once they were born, with no court order in place. Rey initially just reacts to her surroundings because that's what people do when they feel stuck. Again, to me, relatable. It's when she finally makes the choice to take up the lightsaber that calls to her in defense of herself and her friend that is so empowering. I do agree with the later point though; so far her quest focuses on the Skywalker men and it will need to evolve as the story unfolds. The Force awoke in her - she's special for a reason. THAT is the real mystery to me, and I'll get more into that on the next point.

I agree that protagonists are often less interesting than other characters in their stories
Kylo is more interesting than her ( at least he is for me, I have to admit). People spend more time wondering who her parents are than about Rey as a character. Finn decided his own fate, she only reacts to things that happen, she even abandons her only goal ( waiting for her family) to take BB8 where he must be.

See above - I don't find her uninteresting at all. I also care very little who her parents are. I believe this angle to be one of a couple clever misdirections from the romance angle. Of course people do wonder who her parents are - we're supposed to so it's a surprise when she falls for the "monstah". IMO the point is ultimately not going to be who she is related to but who she is as a person. There's something special about Rey that makes her worthy to wield that lightsaber over Kylo even though she is not a Skywalker and we know from the shooting schedule it did belong to Kylo (passed down to Ben Solo?) at one point. So WHAT IS IT? That's what intrigues me about her.

In TFA the introduction of the Trinity makes you wonder who is the protagonist, it could be Finn. Later you realise it is her but with Luke it was perfect, he was a perfect example of a character setting off on a hero's journey. He was not my favourite character, Han was, but I never doubted it was his story or that Harry was the protagonist in his.

Eh, to me maybe at first it could have been Finn's story (I went into TFA a blank slate save for a couple previews because I didn't want to get my hopes up after PT), but as soon as Rey was on screen to me it was clearly her story. I had a moment of doubt (I think we were supposed to Wink) when Finn first picked up the lightsaber, but as soon as she called it to herself, BAM, her story confirmed.

Everything should be about Rey, her adventure, her LI, her quest, her story, but it wasn't. Luke was given the blue lightsaber and she only is the keeper who has to give it back to Luke, as if calling him back to the quest when this should already be her story, her quest and her lightsaber.

Ah, but will Luke take the lightsaber back? He built his own in RotJ. That saber is really no longer his, and hasn't been since ESB. Her handing it off to me seems to be her completing what she (and the audience) thought her quest was about because Maz said the lightsaber belonged to Luke and "someone" could still return. But is it really? I could be dead wrong, but I see a distinct parallel here in Arthurian legend. If we allow the legacy saber to be Excalibur and Ben Solo and Kylo Ren to represent Arthur and Mordred respectively, then Rey and Luke become Merlin and the Lady of the Lake (Vivienne). It was Merlin who taught Vivienne her magic, but Vivienne becomes more powerful than even Merlin and obviously Arthur and Mordred. So when Mordred and Arthur destroy one another in battle, it becomes the Lady of the Lake's task to guard Excalibur on the Isle of Avalon (sound familiar? Very Happy) until Arthur's return. Safeguarding the lightsaber for Ben Solo's return she may be, but I have a feeling that like Vivienne Rey will prove herself the most powerful and important of the Force users. I totally get that this could be problematic depending on personal views, but I've never seen characters like Vivienne or Guinevere to be stock characters or unimportant or plot devices for the men. They have their own powerful sway and their own distinctive desires. Even Persephone and Shakti (also female mythological characters previously compared to Rey on this forum and elsewhere) are acknowledged as ultimately more fearsome than Hades and Shiva (Kylo/Ben). The ancients knew the Divine Feminine was not to be trifled with. I hope the modern writers do too. Wink

I want a story for her where she is the focus, like Scarlett O'Hara was in GWTW or Jane Eyre was in her story.
As a longtime fan of one Miss Scarlett, I hear you. We've already seen some definite darkness in Rey - her rage and almost eagerness to kill the enemy (or at least ease falling into doing so). For proper character development to take place, part of this story will need to focus on her coming to terms with these qualities. We know she's not a Skywalker, so there's something special about her as a person to this story. I guess I just trust the writers to take me there.
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Post by vaderito on Sun 29 May 2016, 4:25 pm

What I don't like about Rey and Kylo dynamics is the idea of replacement. It's as if they positioned Rey to replace Kylo as han and Leia's child, Luke's student, MF owner, saber owner. It's just too much hinting that one person can replace another cause he/she is worthy and predecessor isn't. I don't buy that, it's psychologically totally wrong and the idea is disturbing. I don't know why they are taking this route but I really have a problem with it. You cna replace one with another no matter how one is bad and another one is good. That's just no.
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Post by BastilaBey on Sun 29 May 2016, 4:26 pm

@vaderito I don't see it as replacement, I see it as confirmation that Rey's future lies with the Skywalker family and with Kylo once he redeems himself. It also remains to be seen exactly what her relationship with Luke will be like. People may have been previously assuming it would be happy go lucky master and padawan, but recent spoilers hint it will be a lot more contentious and interesting.
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Post by MindAndMagic on Sun 29 May 2016, 4:39 pm

Yeah, I hope she will have a positive influence over both "angry uncle Luke" and his "naughty nephew". Very Happy
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Post by MeadowofAshes on Sun 29 May 2016, 4:45 pm

@vaderito I see her less as replacement and more as "their only hope". Just my take though.
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Post by Kessel on Sun 29 May 2016, 4:57 pm

@vaderito wrote:What I don't like about Rey and Kylo dynamics is the idea of replacement. It's as if they positioned Rey to replace Kylo as han and Leia's child, Luke's student, MF owner, saber owner. It's just too much hinting that one person can replace another cause he/she is worthy and predecessor isn't. I don't buy that, it's psychologically totally wrong and the idea is disturbing. I don't know why they are taking this route but I really have a problem with it. You cna replace one with another no matter how one is bad and another one is good. That's just no.
@vaderito

Honestly, a few months ago, I had some of the same thoughts and concerns you've mentioned regarding Rey replacing Kylo and assuming his life. I also vehemently dislike the concept of bad Kylo replaced with good Rey because she's "worthy" and he's not (sounds a lot like good cousin vs. bad cousin). However, I really don't think that's going to be the case. That's too simplistic and it doesn't fully explain the dynamic between Kylo and Rey, light and dark, male and female. I think there's more to it than that.

That scenario might have made more sense if Finn were the main protagonist/hero, but even then, it would be a rather boring story.
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Post by Reynak on Sun 29 May 2016, 5:22 pm

Well, I can't see Rey as a solid protagonist in TFA. Harry Potter was, and so was Luke Skywalker, Scarlett O'Hara or Jayne Eyre. There were other characters in their stories that were probably more interesting than they were but, IMO, as I explained several posts back, they were the protagonosts of their own stories and they were well constructed as such. With Rey, it hasn't worked so well because he character is not the centre of TFA and perhaps it won't be the centre of the ST either. Kylo is, he is the eye of the storm, everything revolved around his journey and not Rey's or Finn's. Both Rey and Finn seem plot B material although they are given more screen time than Kylo.

If this is intentional I am OK with it but if she was meant to be the new Luke, it didn't work for me and neither did for other people I've talked to or I've read here. I agree that she was introduced beautifully and her theme, that family she is waiting for, may work although it's too intimate a goal for an epic hero quest. Quests aren't personal and intimate but grand and epic, like Luke's was in OT. What's more, if this is her goal, why did she renounce, why did she give up on it to enter the Skywalker's word? Because she has entered their territory and adopted their quest , I think.

I also think the lightsaber is Kylo 's and not Luke's any more. Her quest is related to the last Skywalker and to a family she is going to join, she will have Skywalker babies. I'm OK with all this but, this isn't reslly her story then, it's Kylo's. They spent the whole movie refering to Kylo and she may have had a lot of screen time but once she found BB8 it never was about her.

Seeing her occupying Kylo's place was unsettling for me too, I agree with @Vaderito it was weird, and for the moment, I don't think she had the impact other heroes and heroines have had. There was the intention to make her the heroine of this story but her characterization was neglected in favour of Kylo's. It didn't have to happen but I think it did.

I don't care one bit who her parents are as long as she isn't related to Kylo, so I am not invested in what seemed to be her goal.

I like Daisy, I loved her intruduction in Jakku, her musical theme and every second she spent with Kylo but the rest was just OK, it would belong in a flick I'd have already forgotten about and wouldn't have seen several times. Well, I am disappointed with this because I never got tired of Scarlett, Jane Eyre, Lizzy Bennet or Katharine Hepburn in "The Lion in Winter", or Audrey Hepburn in "Breakfast at Tiffany's. These women were female protagonists and no men overshadowed them. Mr Rochester or Rett Butler were great but didn't overshadow Jane and Scarlett, it was always clear those were their stories while Rey wasn't written so well, IMO, of course, I know not everyone will agree.


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Post by Reynak on Sun 29 May 2016, 5:24 pm

@MeadowofAshes wrote:@vaderito I see her less as replacement and more as "their only hope". Just my take though.
@MeadowofAshes

I agree with this, if they go this direction and take care of her characterization, we'll have a very compelling heroine, which is what we all want.
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