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Post by FrolickingFizzgig on Sun 29 May - 15:31

@vaderito wrote:What I don't like about Rey and Kylo dynamics is the idea of replacement. It's as if they positioned Rey to replace Kylo as han and Leia's child, Luke's student, MF owner, saber owner. It's just too much hinting that one person can replace another cause he/she is worthy and predecessor isn't. I don't buy that, it's psychologically totally wrong and the idea is disturbing. I don't know why they are taking this route but I really have a problem with it. You cna replace one with another no matter how one is bad and another one is good. That's just no.
@vaderito
It's not replacement at all. It's more like Rey represents what Kylo could have been had his circumstances been different, and Kylo represents that for Rey as well. I think it's very interesting, satisfying and tragic narrative irony. A girl with no affiliation with the Skywalkers coincidentally comes to find herself where Ben Solo was six years earlier. Rey and Kylo are meant to be two sides of the same coin, opposites and foils all at once. It's only natural that Rey would come to walk in Kylo's shoes so-to-speak: fly in his ship, fight with his saber, be hugged by his mother, offered a job by his father. I think it's a beautiful and artistic use of contrast that has nothing to do with one character replacing another character. It's meant to represent just how deeply connected they are, not how Rey is "good" and Kylo is "bad".

@Reynak
I understand your criticisms of Rey's characterization, but I find it strange that a lot of us were expecting Rey to have a goal or mission when she doesn't even really know who she is yet. Rey's journey is one of identity. That is her goal, and I'm confident they know what to do with her beyond just allowing her to be the eyes through which we experience Ben's story.


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Post by ISeeAnIsland on Sun 29 May - 15:36

@FrolickingFizzgig wrote:
@vaderito wrote:What I don't like about Rey and Kylo dynamics is the idea of replacement. It's as if they positioned Rey to replace Kylo as han and Leia's child, Luke's student, MF owner, saber owner. It's just too much hinting that one person can replace another cause he/she is worthy and predecessor isn't. I don't buy that, it's psychologically totally wrong and the idea is disturbing. I don't know why they are taking this route but I really have a problem with it. You cna replace one with another no matter how one is bad and another one is good. That's just no.
@vaderito
It's not replacement at all. It's more like Rey represents what Kylo could have been had his circumstances been different, and Kylo represents that for Rey as well. I think it's very interesting, satisfying and tragic narrative irony. A girl with no affiliation with the Skywalkers coincidentally comes to find herself where Ben Solo was six years earlier. Rey and Kylo are meant to be two sides of the same coin, opposites and foils all at once. It's only natural that Rey would come to walk in Kylo's shoes so-to-speak: fly in his ship, fight with his saber, be hugged by his mother, offered a job by his father. I think it's a beautiful and artistic use of contrast that has nothing to do with one character replacing another character. It's meant to represent just how deeply connected they are, not how Rey is "good" and Kylo is "bad".
@FrolickingFizzgig

I saw it the same way as @FrolickingFizzgig. A while back, someone (I forget who) even floated the idea that perhaps Han took to Rey so quickly (and also looked so wistful at times when he looked at her) was that Rey reminded Han of Ben at that age. I really love that idea.

To Kylo, Rey's sliding into his role in his family, etc, puts up a mirror and shows him "what could have been" had he made different choices.
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Post by Mana on Sun 29 May - 15:57

I think its extremely significant that what Rey seeks the most is 'family' and 'belonging'...she's a strong and independent woman, and she could be a warrior, a Jedi master, a powerful Jedi etc. but none of those things will ever make her happy or complete even if she does achieve them, because what she wants is to be loved above everything else.
I think her relationship with Luke will be pretty strained by what we've heard so far, it looks like he's not everything she hoped he would be. But her true connection to the Skywalkers will come from Kylo. We'll see how it goes in VIII, since they'll be spending a significant amount of time together.


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Post by FrolickingFizzgig on Sun 29 May - 15:59

@ISeeAnIsland wrote:
@FrolickingFizzgig wrote:
@vaderito wrote:What I don't like about Rey and Kylo dynamics is the idea of replacement. It's as if they positioned Rey to replace Kylo as han and Leia's child, Luke's student, MF owner, saber owner. It's just too much hinting that one person can replace another cause he/she is worthy and predecessor isn't. I don't buy that, it's psychologically totally wrong and the idea is disturbing. I don't know why they are taking this route but I really have a problem with it. You cna replace one with another no matter how one is bad and another one is good. That's just no.
@vaderito
It's not replacement at all. It's more like Rey represents what Kylo could have been had his circumstances been different, and Kylo represents that for Rey as well. I think it's very interesting, satisfying and tragic narrative irony. A girl with no affiliation with the Skywalkers coincidentally comes to find herself where Ben Solo was six years earlier. Rey and Kylo are meant to be two sides of the same coin, opposites and foils all at once. It's only natural that Rey would come to walk in Kylo's shoes so-to-speak: fly in his ship, fight with his saber, be hugged by his mother, offered a job by his father. I think it's a beautiful and artistic use of contrast that has nothing to do with one character replacing another character. It's meant to represent just how deeply connected they are, not how Rey is "good" and Kylo is "bad".
@FrolickingFizzgig

I saw it the same way as @FrolickingFizzgig.  A while back, someone (I forget who) even floated the idea that perhaps Han took to Rey so quickly (and also looked so wistful at times when he looked at her) was that Rey reminded Han of Ben at that age. I really love that idea.

To Kylo, Rey's sliding into his role in his family, etc, puts up a mirror and shows him "what could have been" had he made different choices.
@ISeeAnIsland
Indeed, and that's not a concept that I find even remotely disturbing or problematic. It's just another layer of connection between Rey and Kylo, one that extends to a very tragic place.

You can find similar examples in many series that feature dark youth/light youth hero/villain dynamics (both romantic and platonic):
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Post by Gemini on Sun 29 May - 16:07

The connection between Han and Leia and Rey will only truly become clear once we have seen the end of the trilogy.

Its supposed to be one of those odd things you dont quite understand, it remains unanswered. But if Rey is the Key to their sons salvation, then you look back on those moments and it all becomes 100 clear and you see that it was there all along. They sensed something about this girl, and their son.

This is what originally drew me to Reylo.

You can just see what they are doing with it (well to me anyway) the cinematic technique used between these two scream romance, especially the end shots where he is just staring at her. But at this point it is not romance..so why are they doing this? Why use choker shots? Why have such beautiiful music, why make it so sexually suggestive..Because these two are going to end up together and when you look back, it just fits like a puzzle piece.
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Post by Xylo Ren on Sun 29 May - 16:15

Speaking about Rey's character...

I saw TFA with my sister yesterday. It was her 3rd time seeing the film. She represents GA to me because she doesn't do forums like this, but loves SW. She wants Reylo to happen because it "has to happen". Anyway she said something interesting last night at the end of the movie.

She said Rey was a "different person" now. I asked her when she changed. She said "After she got off the MF. After Kylo. She's a different character." [she's talking about when she first hugs Leia after SKB]. I asked her in what way. She said Rey seemed more serious, and she used the word "calm". I really wanted to say it's because she became a woman after "letting it in" with Kylo on the cliff but I held my tongue.

I liked that observation a lot because even though Rey didn't say anything with Leia, we knew she had changed in some way. Her wardrobe on Ach-To supports this. The whole movie she was in metaphorical "white" and after her encounter with Kylo, she wears a tainted grey.
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Post by Guest on Sun 29 May - 16:20

@Reynak wrote:
@MeadowofAshes wrote:@vaderito I see her less as replacement and more as "their only hope". Just my take though.
@MeadowofAshes

I agree with this, if they go this direction and take care of her characterization, we'll have a very compelling heroine, which is what we all want.
@Reynak

I see her as his near-perfect equal. The only thing setting them apart was being trained in the ways of the Force.

She has a strange assortment of skills that mirror Kylo's. She understands Wookiee - he almost certainly does too, since he grew up having Chewbacca around. She knows the ins and outs of the Millennium Falcon, the same can be easily assumed of him as well for obvious reasons. Her piloting ability is probably on par with his, even though we've yet to see him fly.

When we look at Rey, we are also seeing Kylo. She is his reflection in the mirror. I feel it is safe to assume that whatever Rey can do, Kylo is also capable of. Her skill set is an odd, seemingly random combination of things which probably reflects Kylo's almost exactly. They also complete one another. Whatever she is missing, he has - and vice versa. These two are made to be the fiercest of rivals, or the most passionate of lovers.

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Post by snufkin on Sun 29 May - 16:21

Random question because I haven't read either of her books, but given the comments about how cheesy the TFA novelisation was, maybe Claudia Grey will do the one for VIII? Especially if there's been some back and forth between her and Rian Johnson? Just a random thought. I know you guys have said one of these books is a straight up Romeo and Juliet opposite sides of a conflict love story, wouldn't that jibe with the rumored direction here.
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Post by vaderito on Sun 29 May - 16:25

@snufkin wrote:Random question because I haven't read either of her books, but given the comments about how cheesy the TFA novelisation was, maybe Claudia Grey will do the one for VIII? Especially if there's been some back and forth between her and Rian Johnson? Just a random thought. I know you guys have said one of these books is a straight up Romeo and Juliet opposite sides of a conflict love story, wouldn't that jibe with the rumored direction here.
@snufkin

if she gets another SW job (she already wrote 2 books, Lost Stars and Bloodline), it's likely going to be another original canon book. Hopefully Reylo book. Twisted Evil

@WhatGirl Bloodline kind of debunked that Chewie was around. It doesn't mean that Ben doesn't understand Wookie but that awesome fanart of little Ben and uncle Chewie doesn't hold.
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Post by Xylo Ren on Sun 29 May - 16:34

A couple of nights ago I watched the movie "Ever After". It's a typical romance based on the Cinderella story without the pumpkin carriages and cheesy magic. It's meant to show the realistic story behind the fairy tale.

Anyway, I watched it specifically for the romantic tropes that we talk about a lot on here. There are several things I took note of that reminded me of Reylo. Not saying that "Ever After" was inspiration for TFA, but the fact that they both contain familiar themes says something about the romance signs ingrained in us as a culture.

The Girl (Cinderella)
-orphaned at a young age
-depressing, sympathetic life
-smart, independent, fighter
-poor
-heartless guardian that makes them work for her food
-has platonic guy friend
-meets the prince, thinks he's insufferable and arrogant
-fights with a sword
-subverts typical feminine role (rescues the prince in a scene, climbs walls while he waits below, rescues herself from slavery at the end)

The Prince
-entitled
-daddy issues
-bloodline issues, doesn't want the crown, too much responsibility
-tall, dark, handsome
-royalty

Both together
-meet in an orchard/forest
-fight, she throws an apple at him, mistaking him for a thief
-they have obvious caste differences which creates the conflict and her deception

And of course, there were the choke shots, the moment he saw her and we knew as an audience that he had fallen in love. Lots of similarities to Reylo love story.
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Post by Darth Dementor on Sun 29 May - 16:35

@Darth Dingbat wrote:
@ZenBrainJam wrote:A or B I would like to see what is this great goal that Kylo wants to achieve. Because there must be an heck of a reason behind his turning dark at 23. No remperor is not the answer. Try again Razz
@ZenBrainJam

Me too. It was built up as such a mystery that I expect there to be some kind of pay-off.

In fact, I expect that to be the "twist" of Episode VIII. Not "I am your father", not "I love you", but the reasons why Kylo turned and what his real goals are.

I could be wrong, of course, but this is what I hope for.
@Darth Dingbat

You may be on to something.   If the writers are good we shouldn't see the twist coming.  After all the whole point of one is to surprise the audience.

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Post by vaderito on Sun 29 May - 17:52

@Xylo Ren That's because Reylo uses romantic tropes. Without Reywalker stupidity, much more people would admit that those tropes are there.

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Post by ISeeAnIsland on Sun 29 May - 18:02

@snufkin wrote:Random question because I haven't read either of her books, but given the comments about how cheesy the TFA novelisation was, maybe Claudia Grey will do the one for VIII? Especially if there's been some back and forth between her and Rian Johnson? Just a random thought. I know you guys have said one of these books is a straight up Romeo and Juliet opposite sides of a conflict love story, wouldn't that jibe with the rumored direction here.
@snufkin

That would be wonderful if Claudia did it. I wonder when she'd need to start on it, though, given that VIII is 18 months away?
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Post by Reynak on Sun 29 May - 23:28

@Darth Dementor wrote:
@Darth Dingbat wrote:
@ZenBrainJam wrote:A or B I would like to see what is this great goal that Kylo wants to achieve. Because there must be an heck of a reason behind his turning dark at 23. No remperor is not the answer. Try again Razz
@ZenBrainJam

Me too. It was built up as such a mystery that I expect there to be some kind of pay-off.

In fact, I expect that to be the "twist" of Episode VIII. Not "I am your father", not "I love you", but the reasons why Kylo turned and what his real goals are.

I could be wrong, of course, but this is what I hope for.
@Darth Dingbat

You may be on to something.   If the writers are good we shouldn't see the twist coming.  After all the whole point of one is to surprise the audience.
@Darth Dementor

For me it is the main mystery, it will affect the perception we have of Kylo and specially the GA's. If they see him just as the villain of the story this revelation is probably going to be shocking for many of them. What I hope is that they don't keep it a scret until the last minute in E lX.

One of the reasons why I'd like Rey's parentage to be important ( making her related to someone already important in SW universe) is that it will focus the viewers' attention on her while looking for answers, when the discovery is made, when seeing how it affects her and those around her, seeing how she feels about it, etc. This isn't going to define her, her qualities as a heroine will, but it will take the viewers' attention to something that is only hers and not the Skywalker family's for once. IMO it would be good for the character.

It's also a common trope in many coming of age and "hero on a quest " stories. The hero has lost his/her family and/or nobody knows who they are but they turn out to be very important. Heritage doesn't make the protagonist a hero, his actions do, but it is a shocking discovery. This will happen with John Snow in ASoIaF, for instance. He is not a hero because of that but his heritage will have an impact on the viewers/readers. Most have guessed who he is already, by the way. Tyrion is an antihero in the story but his importance is that of a main character and his heritage probably hides a secret too. I don't follow the TV show and don't want to be spoiled by it but perhaps some of these secrets have come to the surface there already.


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Post by ZenBrainJam on Mon 30 May - 0:43

On Rey development/characterization

I think that the problem (yes, there is a problem here) with Rey is that she is female. With a male hero all the characterization would never be so discussed. An orphan boy, starving, go with new friend toward adventure and his powerful future discovering that he is almost a wizard???? Harry Potter. No, I mean, it's Rey in male version.
And the role model thing? Young boys don't need role models, so why girls would need something like that? But many ask her to be a role model.

It's just that she is female. And all that tomboy, tomboy, tomboy... why a tomboy? Because she is a scavenger that can fix ships and pilot ships and fight with a lightsaber and never try to have her way with others using her feminine sexualized charm? So if you don't try to use your charm you are a tomboy, not a human being that need to be respected as a human being before as seen as a woman with could (or could not) have sex with you? We talk about Rey sexual awakening as this big thing, but honestly, she could have been already awakened just hiddening the whole thing, maybe the difference is about feelings, not sex. She wants more than raven locks from her love interest, end of story. Kylo: if you want to impress her, more compassion and less conditioner...

She seems so poor characterized, so uninteresting, not because she is the main character (there are a lot of interesting main characters out there: Scout from How to kill a mockingbird, Santiago from The old man and the sea, Holden from The catcher in the rye, and so on...) but because or we want more from female main character (yes, me too) or we expect something different from female main character.

Jane Eyre is poorly characterized? No. And she is the main character. But why she is not poorly characterized? Because she internalize her struggle, and struggles a LOT. She is all about feelings and pain, she suffers and shows her suffering, she loves his Rochester but keeps her straightforwardness. Rey? Rey holds up without complaing, and when her Rochester show himself she refuses him, slicing his face.
We don't complain about Jane because Jane give us what we expect from female main characters. Pain, feminine struggle, petticoats, inner strenght not exterior strenght.
Luke is a hero? Yes. Is he so well characterized? No. But no one complain about his two dimensional develop during OT. We don't complain about Luke because Luke is the classical male hero, and we don't expect something more from him.

The problem is not Rey but our own eyes and expectations. I find Kylo way more interesting than Rey, I have this problem too.
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Post by CienaRee on Mon 30 May - 0:59

@ZenBrainJam wrote:On Rey development/characterization

I think that the problem (yes, there is a problem here) with Rey is that she is female. With a male hero all the characterization would never be so discussed. An orphan boy, starving, go with new friend toward adventure and his powerful future discovering that he is almost a wizard???? Harry Potter. No, I mean, it's Rey in male version.
And the role model thing? Young boys don't need role models, so why girls would need something like that? But many ask her to be a role model.

It's just that she is female. And all that tomboy, tomboy, tomboy... why a tomboy? Because she is a scavenger that can fix ships and pilot ships and fight with a lightsaber and never try to have her way with others using her feminine sexualized charm? So if you don't try to use your charm you are a tomboy, not a human being that need to be respected as a human being before as seen as a woman with could (or could not) have sex with you? We talk about Rey sexual awakening as this big thing, but honestly, she could have been already awakened just hiddening the whole thing, maybe the difference is about feelings, not sex. She wants more than raven locks from her love interest, end of story. Kylo: if you want to impress her, more compassion and less conditioner...

She seems so poor characterized, so uninteresting, not because she is the main character (there are a lot of interesting main characters out there: Scout from How to kill a mockingbird, Santiago from The old man and the sea, Holden from The catcher in the rye, and so on...) but because or we want more from female main character (yes, me too) or we expect something different from female main character.

Jane Eyre is poorly characterized? No. And she is the main character. But why she is not poorly characterized? Because she internalize her struggle, and struggles a LOT. She is all about feelings and pain, she suffers and shows her suffering, she loves his Rochester but keeps her straightforwardness. Rey? Rey holds up without complaing, and when her Rochester show himself she refuses him, slicing his face.
We don't complain about Jane because Jane give us what we expect from female main characters. Pain, feminine struggle, petticoats, inner strenght not exterior strenght.
Luke is a hero? Yes. Is he so well characterized? No. But no one complain about his two dimensional develop during OT. We don't complain about Luke because Luke is the classical male hero, and we don't expect something more from him.

The problem is not Rey but our own eyes and expectations. I find Kylo way more interesting than Rey, I have this problem too.
@ZenBrainJam

I think the problem comes down to (at least for me) the media trying to seel their female heroines as the tomboy type meaning she wants to be independent,more manly and not in need of any men.I mean I don't have anything against these type of characters.I believe there are many kind of different women and writers should be allowed to portray them on screen.The problem is that a large group of the audience seems to despise the mroe feminine charactres:the ones who show weakness,who aren't phyically powerful and want family and love.Nowdays we have the tomboy type but a muhc more radical version of it:she can be a kickass and powerful but she's not allowed to display any emotions or God help her if she falls in love that means she's weak and allows herself to be dominated by a man.
What I liked about Rey is that while she starts that way  or they give you the illusion that she is that type(with how she dislikes to hold Finn's hand and prefers being alone)to being affectionate and getting close to people(forming a connection with BB8,Han and Finn).She seems to be a combination of both tomboy and feminine which isn't something you see very often and is a welcome change.
What I also noticed is that Rey seems to be loyal to people not ideals(much like Anakin).She risks her life to save BB8 because she cares about him not because she's loyal to the Resistanse or thinks of joining them.She also quickly develops affection for both Finn and Hann and doesn't care that they are former stormtrooper and a smuggler.In her eyes they treated her as a human being and a friend so she treats them the same way.The same also applies to Kylo though because he wants to be seen and treated  as monster she treats him like one.

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Post by EchoBase on Mon 30 May - 0:59

@Kylo Ren wrote:@Xylo Ren
I love that movie.....probably because the things you listed...
But what buggs me is why create so mych controversy about Reywalker then....why just not clearly debunk it ..like thed did with Rey Solo....apart from making this movie the talk of the century.....oh wait....ahaaaa

I think that Reywalker too needs to be officially debunked rather soon...some time before ep. 8...maybe arround Christmas time...Rey looks a lot like Jyn...
because all the hateres there they need the time to get used to the fact that them to are not cousins....as does the GA....because the way I see it...the cousins is the biggest only obstacle for that romance.. .in the east they are popular regardless because they love those kinds of dark immposible romances ....in Europe the only issue is possible fammilial connection...the west (Americas) they might have additional issues with their silly preferences of Rey's future husband....

I hope Rogue One will solve some of the issues...
@Kylo Ren

I'm sure Reywalker will be debunked before the release of Ep 8, so the GA can be prepared for the dynamic between Kylo and Rey which they don't grasp in TFA or denied to.

And DR already somehow confirmed that Jyn Erso is not Rey's mother.
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Post by ZenBrainJam on Mon 30 May - 1:05

@CienaRee wrote:
@ZenBrainJam wrote:On Rey development/characterization

I think that the problem (yes, there is a problem here) with Rey is that she is female. With a male hero all the characterization would never be so discussed. An orphan boy, starving, go with new friend toward adventure and his powerful future discovering that he is almost a wizard???? Harry Potter. No, I mean, it's Rey in male version.
And the role model thing? Young boys don't need role models, so why girls would need something like that? But many ask her to be a role model.

It's just that she is female. And all that tomboy, tomboy, tomboy... why a tomboy? Because she is a scavenger that can fix ships and pilot ships and fight with a lightsaber and never try to have her way with others using her feminine sexualized charm? So if you don't try to use your charm you are a tomboy, not a human being that need to be respected as a human being before as seen as a woman with could (or could not) have sex with you? We talk about Rey sexual awakening as this big thing, but honestly, she could have been already awakened just hiddening the whole thing, maybe the difference is about feelings, not sex. She wants more than raven locks from her love interest, end of story. Kylo: if you want to impress her, more compassion and less conditioner...

She seems so poor characterized, so uninteresting, not because she is the main character (there are a lot of interesting main characters out there: Scout from How to kill a mockingbird, Santiago from The old man and the sea, Holden from The catcher in the rye, and so on...) but because or we want more from female main character (yes, me too) or we expect something different from female main character.

Jane Eyre is poorly characterized? No. And she is the main character. But why she is not poorly characterized? Because she internalize her struggle, and struggles a LOT. She is all about feelings and pain, she suffers and shows her suffering, she loves his Rochester but keeps her straightforwardness. Rey? Rey holds up without complaing, and when her Rochester show himself she refuses him, slicing his face.
We don't complain about Jane because Jane give us what we expect from female main characters. Pain, feminine struggle, petticoats, inner strenght not exterior strenght.
Luke is a hero? Yes. Is he so well characterized? No. But no one complain about his two dimensional develop during OT. We don't complain about Luke because Luke is the classical male hero, and we don't expect something more from him.

The problem is not Rey but our own eyes and expectations. I find Kylo way more interesting than Rey, I have this problem too.
@ZenBrainJam

I think the problem comes down to (at least for me) the media trying to seel their female heroines as the tomboy type meaning she wants to be independent,more manly and not in need of any men.I mean I don't have anything against these type of characters.I believe there are many kind of different women and writers should be allowed to portray them on screen.The problem is that a large group of the audience seems to despise the mroe feminine charactres:the ones who show weakness,who aren't phyically powerful and want family and love.Nowdays we have the tomboy type but a muhc more radical version of it:she can be a kickass and powerful but she's not allowed to display any emotions or God help her if she falls in love that means she's weak and allows herself to be dominated by a man.
What I liked about Rey is that while she starts that way  or they give you the illusion that she is that type(with how she dislikes to hold Finn's hand and prefers being alone)to being affectionate and getting close to people(forming a connection with BB8,Han and Finn).She seems to be a combination of both tomboy and feminine which isn't something you see very often and is a welcome change.
What I also noticed is that Rey seems to be loyal to people not ideals(much like Anakin).She risks her life  to save BB8 because she cares about him not because she's loyal to the Resistanse or thinks of joining them.She also quickly develops affection for both Finn and Hann and doesn't care that they are former stormtrooper and a smuggler.In her eyes they treated her as a human being and a friend so she treats them the same way.The same also applies to Kylo though because he wants to be seen and treated  as monster she treats him like one.
@CienaRee

Actually a character can be both: strong, independent and wanting a family and a relationship. I expect this type of character this time. But the tomboy label in my opinion is silly. Is she a tomboy because she is good at technical stuff and don't display sexualized behaviour (sexy walk, sexy clothes, sexy smirk and so on..)? I don't like this type of compartmentalisation.
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Post by Darth_Awakened on Mon 30 May - 1:08

@EchoBase wrote:
@Kylo Ren wrote:@Xylo Ren
I love that movie.....probably because the things you listed...
But what buggs me is why create so mych controversy about Reywalker then....why just not clearly debunk it ..like thed did with Rey Solo....apart from making this movie the talk of the century.....oh wait....ahaaaa

I think that Reywalker too needs to be officially debunked rather soon...some time before ep. 8...maybe arround Christmas time...Rey looks a lot like Jyn...
because all the hateres there they need the time to get used to the fact that them to are not cousins....as does the GA....because the way I see it...the cousins is the biggest only obstacle for that romance.. .in the east they are popular regardless because they love those kinds of dark immposible romances ....in Europe the only issue is possible fammilial connection...the west (Americas) they might have additional issues with their silly preferences of Rey's future husband....

I hope Rogue One will solve some of the issues...
@Kylo Ren

I'm sure Reywalker will be debunked before the release of Ep 8, so the GA can be prepared for the dynamic between Kylo and Rey which they don't grasp in TFA or denied to.

And DR already somehow confirmed that Jyn Erso is not Rey's mother.
@EchoBase

Jyn was debunked by Pablo H. as well.
Concerning Reywalker theory - I think it will be "officialy debunked" in the frist half of episode 8 - the similar way Rey Solo was debunked in TFA.
Of course - it won t be enough for some people Very Happy But most of the GA will get it.
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Post by CienaRee on Mon 30 May - 1:21

@ZenBrainJam wrote:
@CienaRee wrote:
@ZenBrainJam wrote:On Rey development/characterization

I think that the problem (yes, there is a problem here) with Rey is that she is female. With a male hero all the characterization would never be so discussed. An orphan boy, starving, go with new friend toward adventure and his powerful future discovering that he is almost a wizard???? Harry Potter. No, I mean, it's Rey in male version.
And the role model thing? Young boys don't need role models, so why girls would need something like that? But many ask her to be a role model.

It's just that she is female. And all that tomboy, tomboy, tomboy... why a tomboy? Because she is a scavenger that can fix ships and pilot ships and fight with a lightsaber and never try to have her way with others using her feminine sexualized charm? So if you don't try to use your charm you are a tomboy, not a human being that need to be respected as a human being before as seen as a woman with could (or could not) have sex with you? We talk about Rey sexual awakening as this big thing, but honestly, she could have been already awakened just hiddening the whole thing, maybe the difference is about feelings, not sex. She wants more than raven locks from her love interest, end of story. Kylo: if you want to impress her, more compassion and less conditioner...

She seems so poor characterized, so uninteresting, not because she is the main character (there are a lot of interesting main characters out there: Scout from How to kill a mockingbird, Santiago from The old man and the sea, Holden from The catcher in the rye, and so on...) but because or we want more from female main character (yes, me too) or we expect something different from female main character.

Jane Eyre is poorly characterized? No. And she is the main character. But why she is not poorly characterized? Because she internalize her struggle, and struggles a LOT. She is all about feelings and pain, she suffers and shows her suffering, she loves his Rochester but keeps her straightforwardness. Rey? Rey holds up without complaing, and when her Rochester show himself she refuses him, slicing his face.
We don't complain about Jane because Jane give us what we expect from female main characters. Pain, feminine struggle, petticoats, inner strenght not exterior strenght.
Luke is a hero? Yes. Is he so well characterized? No. But no one complain about his two dimensional develop during OT. We don't complain about Luke because Luke is the classical male hero, and we don't expect something more from him.

The problem is not Rey but our own eyes and expectations. I find Kylo way more interesting than Rey, I have this problem too.
@ZenBrainJam

I think the problem comes down to (at least for me) the media trying to seel their female heroines as the tomboy type meaning she wants to be independent,more manly and not in need of any men.I mean I don't have anything against these type of characters.I believe there are many kind of different women and writers should be allowed to portray them on screen.The problem is that a large group of the audience seems to despise the mroe feminine charactres:the ones who show weakness,who aren't phyically powerful and want family and love.Nowdays we have the tomboy type but a muhc more radical version of it:she can be a kickass and powerful but she's not allowed to display any emotions or God help her if she falls in love that means she's weak and allows herself to be dominated by a man.
What I liked about Rey is that while she starts that way  or they give you the illusion that she is that type(with how she dislikes to hold Finn's hand and prefers being alone)to being affectionate and getting close to people(forming a connection with BB8,Han and Finn).She seems to be a combination of both tomboy and feminine which isn't something you see very often and is a welcome change.
What I also noticed is that Rey seems to be loyal to people not ideals(much like Anakin).She risks her life  to save BB8 because she cares about him not because she's loyal to the Resistanse or thinks of joining them.She also quickly develops affection for both Finn and Hann and doesn't care that they are former stormtrooper and a smuggler.In her eyes they treated her as a human being and a friend so she treats them the same way.The same also applies to Kylo though because he wants to be seen and treated  as monster she treats him like one.
@CienaRee

Actually a character can be both: strong, independent and wanting a family and a relationship. I expect this type of character this time. But the tomboy label in my opinion is silly. Is she a tomboy because she is good at technical stuff and don't display sexualized behaviour (sexy walk, sexy clothes, sexy smirk and so on..)? I don't like this type of compartmentalisation.
@ZenBrainJam

I completly agree but for many people wanting both things is a sign of being a weak female.So she for her to be a strong role model she only has to be strong and indpendent.
I don't realy see Rey as a tomboy not like Arya Stark from GOT for example.

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Post by Saracene on Mon 30 May - 1:49

Interesting discussion on Rey. I do love Rey, but I love her because she's loveable and Daisy Ridley's performance is charming and enchanting as heck, not necessarily because she's interesting. Like others said, I think she's only truly interesting in her scenes with Kylo, who brings out qualities in her other characters don't. I can't really get onboard with her having real flaws, because her "flaws" a) don't detract from her likeability and b) don't really cost her anything. She is quick to trust people, but, well, everyone she trusts in TFA ends up being trustworthy. She is quick to shoot at Ren, but it's not like her rashness makes her harm an innocent person - Kylo is a villain. She releases the rathtars by mistake, but then fixes everything herself and saves Finn (and the rathtars take care of the gang who threatened them so it all works out in the end). She gets captured by a bad guy, but then beats him at his own game, frees herself, and looks in control and on track to steal a ship and get out, without needing help.

There's nothing wrong with an arc where a hero figures out where they belong, I'm just not sure if it's going to turn Rey into an active hero from a reactive one she was in TFA. Luke's arc in the OT may not be the most interesting or original ever, but it makes him do things and work at things. Whereas with Rey I've no idea why she even went to Luke at the end of the movie. Was it her idea? Leia's? Does she now want to help the Resistance or is she going to sort out her own stuff? I've no idea because Rey is never allowed to articulate her wants, like Luke is in ANH.
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Post by ZenBrainJam on Mon 30 May - 1:58

Maybe it's a problem of comparing her characterization with Kylo's. He is surely mooooore developed. Finn has the same problem, Poe too... but ofter viewers complain about Rey and not Finn or Poe...
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Post by Reynak on Mon 30 May - 2:05

Poe is only a secondary character and was never meant to be more than that. Oscar made him shine but he wasn't meant to be more than what he was. Many have complained about Finn though, more than about Rey in fact. And at least he has his flaws because he lies and manipulated people while she is too perfect. She is interesting only when with Kylo, unfortunately.
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