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Post by Reynak on Mon 30 May - 2:11

I'm not sure we expect more from her because she is a woman, what happens is that her characterization isn't all that good and she is inmersed in somebody else's story. It is a problem for me that she is accepted immediately and gets to occupy Ben's place like that. I am a mother myself and if I was Leia ( or Han) I'd be "mourning" the loss of my son and not hugging some girl and nearly adopting her in his place. My son can't be replaced by anyone else. His place could never be filled by another if he became bad. That doesn't ring true, that's why most people didn't like it when Leia hugged Rey as if she knew her, because she didn't know her and that scene felt weird. She is a stranger and shouldn't get so much immediate love that comes out of nowhere.

Everybody likes her immediately and that isn't because she can do everything Kylo does as nobody but Snoke seems to like poor Kylo very much. And Snoke is a predator and a master manipulator so nobody does. His parents love him but don't seem to like him. Too much Vader in him, there's still Light in him and so on. Even his mother doesn't accept him, only the part in him that's Light. No wonder he unravelled before Rey, because he thought she was like him and hoped she might accept him.

The problem is that the writers didn't construct an identity for Rey, it doesn't matter that she is female, the problem is what @Vaderito said, that she is the mixture of other character's greatest hits but she seems generic and there's nothing to her that seems unique, that makes her recognisable and gives her an identity.

People like her too soon and her tragic childhood doesn't seem to affect her unbelievable optimism, she doesn't have doubts or flaws and can do no wrong, and she is too powerful to be relatable. We usually relate to those who struggle and suffer, also to those who make mistakes. Not everybody liked Harry, for instance, he wasn't always right and needed other people's help. The problem with Rey is that they tried too hard to make her look independent, likeable, optimistic and cute and this is neither convincing not relatable. This is a tale and she doesn't need to be feel realistic but people need to relate to her or identify with her. This will happen when we see her flaws, when she makes a mistake, when she is affected by pain and when she needs help. That's why we liked her when she showed darkness and branded Kylo.

As she is a female she never gets bruised and this is a problem because we sympathise with those who suffer, also with the beaten, the underdogs or those who are brought low, like Kylo. She needs this to attract sympathy, to make the viewers empathise with her. I only empathised with her when Maz told her nobody would come back for her and she knew and then cried, only then. Because she felt real then and she was sad.

As she is a woman nobody saves her or helps her because they don't want to make her look like a damsel in distress, but a hero that does everything well is not a good hero. Luke and Harry needed help, they were saved by others sometimes. If it is too clear she is not affected by danger, she never makes mistakes and will never need to be saved they are really setting a model and it is absolutely unrealistic to make matters worse. If she was a man she would have made some mistake, needed to be helped or saved. She also needs to have
real enemies, people who don't like her. It is ridiculous that everyone loves her, even Kylo, the villain. How can anyone identify with such perfection?

The problem is that she is female but not because we expect more as regards characterization but because we expect the same (at least us, we don't want her to be a role model here) and the writers didn't dare to give us what was needed because of reasons related to gender.

They feared people's reactions if she was beaten, if she appeared weak, flawed or unlikable because female characters attract more hate than males when they are flawed, weak and make mistakes. I know where the problem is and understand the writers. But most guys see her as a Mary Sue because of the writers' choices, not only because they didn't get the FB and other things. And female fans like us find Kylo more interesting and he is the reason why we saw the movie more than once, not her. The result is that nobody dislikes her but few people find her fascinating or really love her as a character. They played it too safe with her. With Kylo it was the opposite and some hate him while others love him. The fact is that he leaves no one indifferent. They need to take some risks with her and some will like her less but most will start feeling closer to her.


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Post by ZenBrainJam on Mon 30 May - 2:14

@Reynak wrote:Poe is only a secondary character and was never meant to be more than that. Oscar made him shine but he wasn't meant to be more than what he was. Many have complained about Finn though, more than about Rey in fact. And at least he has his flaws because he lies and manipulated people while she is too perfect. She is interesting only when with Kylo, unfortunately.
@Reynak

Well... thinking about her scenes, for me she is interesting all the time, actually. And the flaws are not the sole way to achieve characterization, I hope. I am not saying that Rey is perfect, more resilient than perfect IMO, but for me is not lack of flaws, is lack of attention I suppose. They paid a lot of attention to Kylo, but to others.. not so much. Very star warsy, Luke was the same, Obi1 too... all naive twodimensional and stereotyped. I like SW and Luke and Obi1 nonetheless, but the truth is the truth.


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Post by Reynak on Mon 30 May - 2:27

I agree that she needs more attention but also think she hasn't been written well, not badly but not well enough either when compared with other heroes and heroines, Luke included.

Her characterization can be improved and I hope it will be dealt with. Daisy can offer a much more interesting heroine, there's enough strength in her and she is really expressive.

I also think everybody has flaws, even the greatest heroes, that's why an all too perfect character doesn't ring true, not only because nobody is like that but because he/she becomes unrelatable.


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Post by ZenBrainJam on Mon 30 May - 2:39

IDK... Luke wasn't so well developed. Farm boy go to adventure, discovering he is a FS. Scavenger goes to adventure, just to bring BB8 to resistance, discovering she is FS she refuses the call then accept it. It's just the same, with little difference. But with females we ask for more, maybe because we can't believe that a female hero can function as a male one, maybe because this time the villain is much more developed.
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Post by Darth Dingbat on Mon 30 May - 2:41

Regarding the earlier discussion of Rey's characterisation and whether or not she's too passive... It's not her wanting to stay on Jakku that makes her "unworthy" of being a hero. She has been stoically waiting for her family to come back. Nothing in that makes her unworthy of being a hero; she's perfect hero material. My problem is that in TFA, she never really gets to occupy the role of a hero. I'm sure it was partly because of the Mystery Box: they tried to hide the real hero as long as possible which is, IMO, stupid storytelling and why TFA seems more like a prologue than the real first installment. But even at the end of the film, she still doesn't occupy the position of a hero, though she has all the credentials for being one.

It's hard for me to explain why I found Rey's treatment as a hero somewhat disappointing. It's definitely not that I expect her to be even more perfect and capable before I would find her "worthy", nor do I expect her to be especially nuanced and conflicted and interesting. As has been pointed out, heroes often aren't. But it's the way she is positioned in the story that I find lacking. It makes sense with the way the story played out, but as I said in another topic, a story can be told in a million other ways... and they chose to tell this one in a way that somewhat de-emphasised Rey's importance in her own right.

You never doubt that Harry Potter is the central hero, and that's not only because he's a male. You never doubt that Lyra is the central hero of His Dark Materials, either. You never doubt that WALL-E is the hero of WALL-E, or that Merida is the hero of Brave. And so on. Their respective journeys are never overshadowed by the journeys of others, though other characters may be more interesting.

By the first act, most central protagonists seem to have some kind of a clarified role or purpose, no matter what that role or purpose is. Lizzy Bennet isn't an epic hero, but by the first act of her story, she has made it clear that she will only marry someone she can esteem, unlike Charlotte Lucas. Jane Eyre has made it clear that she'll be in charge of her own fate, however hard it might be. Luke Skywalker plays the most crucial role in destroying the Death Star and by the end of the first film it is amply clear that he is the "new hope", that this story is mainly his to live through.

By contrast, Rey still isn't strongly established in that central role, and she has no established purpose yet. She becomes a hero when she defeats Kylo, but that is a very ambiguous battle - as we know - and it ends with her looking at him with concern (not to mention that she defeated the man whom Leia flagged as the object of the quest: "I want him back"). Finn and Han had more active roles in destroying the SKB. But I don't mean to be greedy here; I'm not saying the female hero should get all the victories and accomplishments. The very end, however, still fails to establish her as the true central hero. She gets the Excalibur... and then she goes on a journey to hand over the Excalibur to someone else who appears to be narratively more important.

In fact, a lot of Reywalkers are asking: "If Rey isn't a Skywalker, what's the point of all this?" That kind of illustrates what I mean. It isn't just that they're wearing Skywalker goggles, though that plays into it a lot, I'm sure. But it's also that Rey's importance in her own right hasn't yet been established in TFA. People expected her to have a clear journey, and finding her father in the end of TFA would "make sense" from that point of view, because finding her parents was the strong desire of the Rey we first met. She was planted in the middle of Skywalker family drama, threatening to be engulfed by Luke's mystery and Kylo's mystery and their impending conflict. I don't think it's much of a wonder that many people are expecting her to be a Skywalker, because her own story still plays second fiddle to the Skywalker story. And of course, the Skywalker story is mainly Kylo's.

It doesn't mean that this won't change. I hope and believe it will. But the point is, heroes aren't made by creating a likeable character and then pointing at her or him, "look, this is the hero". They need to be clearly positioned as heroes, and they need a heroic purpose. The whole thing doesn't have to formulaic at all, but I just... I don't know. I blame the Mystery Box, once again.

I brought up the ridiculous lack of Rey merchandise in the other thread because it seems to me that they're not quite confident of a female hero carrying the franchise, and I find that very disappointing.

Though of course it could be that this trilogy will be more of an ensemble piece. But I did expect Rey to be the most important central character.

And I really, really hope that Rey's parentage will play a crucial and organic role in the plot of the ST instead of being an anticlimax because that is something that's entirely her own. Her stated purpose, from the beginning: to get her family back. She has been stoically waiting for them for years. That is the story of the Rey we meet in TFA. Her parentage mystery won't upstage her as a character if it is actually a crucial part of her character development, as it seems to be. It's not like Luke's parentage upstaged his journey. Far from it. I hope that this - Rey's own story - won't be brushed aside in favour of the Skywalker story. That's all.
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Post by CienaRee on Mon 30 May - 2:42

@Reynak wrote:I'm not sure we expect more from her because she is a woman, what happens is that her characterization isn't all that good and she is inmersed in somebody else's story. It is a problem for me that she is accepted immediately and gets to occupy Ben's place like that. I am a mother myself and if I was Leia ( or Han) I'd be "mourning" the loss of my son and not hugging some girl and nearly adopted her in his place. My son can't be replaced by anyone else. His place could never be filled by another if he became bad. That doesn't ring true, that's why most people didn't like it when Leia hugged Rey as if she knew her, because she didn't know her and that scene felt weird. She is a stranger and shouldn't so much immediate love that comes out of nowhere.

Everybody likes her immediately and that isn't because she can do everything Kylo does as nobody but Snoke seems to like poor Kylo very much. And Snoke is a predator and a master manipulator so nobody does. His parents love him but don't seem to like him. Too much Vader in him, there's still Light in him and so on. Even his mother doesn't accept him, only the part in him that's Light. No wonder he unravelled before Rey, because he thought she was like him and hoped she might accept him.

The problem is that the writers didn't construct an identity for Rey, it doesn't matter that she is female, the problem is what @Vaderito said, that she is the mixture of other character's greatest hits but she seems generic and there's nothing to her that seems unique, that makes her recognisable and gives her an identity.

People like her too soon and her tragic childhood doesn't seem to affect her unbelievable optimism, she doesn't have doubts or flaws and can do no wrong, and she is too powerful to be relatable. We usually relate to those who struggle and suffer, also to those who make mistakes. Not everybody liked Harry, for instance, he wasn't always right and needed other people's help. The problem with Rey is that they tried too hard to make her look independent, likeable, optimistic and cute and this is neither convincing not relatable. This is a tale and she doesn't need to be feel realistic but people need to relate to her or identify with her. This will happen when we see her flaws, when she makes a mistake, when she is affected by pain and when she needs help. That's why we liked her when she showed darkness and branded Kylo.

As she is a female she never gets bruised and this is a problem because we sympathise with those who suffer, also with the beaten, the underdogs or those who are brought low, like Kylo. She needs this to attract sympathy, to make the viewers empathise with her. I only empathised with her when Maz told her nobody would come back for her and she knew and then cried, only then. Because she felt real then and she was sad.

As she is a woman nobody saves her or helps her because they don't want to make her look like a damsel in distress, but a hero that does everything well is a not a good hero. Luke and Harry needed help, they were saved by others sometimes. If it is too clear she is not affected by danger, she never makes mistakes and will never need to be saved they are really setting a model and it is absolutely unrealistic to make matters worse. If she was a man she would have made some mistake, needed to be helped or saved. She also needs to have
real enemies, people who don't like her. It is ridiculous that everyone loves her, even Kylo, the villain. How can anyone identify with such perfection?

The problem is that she is female but not because we expect more as regards characterization but because we edpect the same (at least us, we don't want her to be a role model here) and the writers didn't dare to give us what was needed because of reasons related to gender.

They feared people's reactions if she was beaten, if she appeared weak, flawed or unlikable because female characters attract more hate than males when they are flawed, weak and make mistakes. I know where the problem is and understand the writers. But most guys see her a Mary Sue because of the writers' choices, not only because they didn't get the FB and other things. And female fans like us find Kylo more interesting and he is the reason why we saw the movie more than once, not her. The result is that nobody dislikes her but few people find her fascinating or really love her as a character. They played it too safe with her. With Kylo it was the opposite and some hate him while others love him. The fact is that he leaves no one indifferent. They need to take some risks with her and some will like her less but most will start feeling closer to her.
@Reynak

Great post. cheers
People tend to relate to more realistically depicted charactres.I really feel bad for Daisy Ridely because I've got the impression that she really wants people to care more about Rey than for her parentage but for that to happen there needs to be more to Rey's character than beinga  role model basically because that's what the writers intended to the detriment of her character in TFA.It says a lot when novalazations and art give a better picture of Rey as a character and her hard life on Jakku and that's a problem because a large percent of the audience have no idea that Rey had to fight and probably kill people on Jakku and those flying abilties she got were a result of constant training on flying simulators made by herself.The other porblem is that by giving Rey(and Finn)such an unrealistic charactarization given how her life has been there has been the known complains about how could Kylo turn to the DS when perfet adorable cinnamon roll like Rey didn't ofcourse it didn't help that apparently Pablo shares the same opinion as the antis on that matter.
I also fin the idea of Rey being the new Luke problematic,to be honest.Just let the girl be herself and stop tryign to make her into other characters greatest hits.It doesn't help her it just shows the stark difference in how the writers develop her vs how they develop Kylo.

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Post by Saracene on Mon 30 May - 2:48

@ZenBrainJam wrote:IDK... Luke wasn't so well developed. Farm boy go to adventure, discovering he is a FS. Scavenger goes to adventure, just to bring BB8 to resistance, discovering she is FS she refuses the call then accept it. It's just the same, with little difference. But with females we ask for more, maybe because we can't believe that a female hero can function as a male one, maybe because this time the villain is much more developed.
@ZenBrainJam

The big difference is that Rey has no equivalent of Luke's "I want to be a Jedi like my father" - a clear goal and ambition. What she wants to do for most of the movie is go back to Jakku and wait for her family until the cows come home. She basically wants to stay passive, whereas Luke wants to get out there and do things.
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Post by CienaRee on Mon 30 May - 2:49

@Darth Dingbat wrote:Regarding the earlier discussion of Rey's characterisation and whether or not she's too passive... It's not her wanting to stay on Jakku that makes her "unworthy" of being a hero. She has been stoically waiting for her family to come back. Nothing in that makes her unworthy of being a hero; she's perfect hero material. My problem is that in TFA, she never really gets to occupy the role of a hero. I'm sure it was partly because of the Mystery Box: they tried to hide the real hero as long as possible which is, IMO, stupid storytelling and why TFA seems more like a prologue than the real first installment. But even at the end of the film, she still doesn't occupy the position of a hero, though she has all the credentials for being one.

It's hard for me to explain why I found Rey's treatment as a hero somewhat disappointing. It's definitely not that I expect her to be even more perfect and capable before I would find her "worthy", nor do I expect her to be especially nuanced and conflicted and interesting. As has been pointed out, heroes often aren't. But it's the way she is positioned in the story that I find lacking. It makes sense with the way the story played out, but as I said in another topic, a story can be told in a million other ways... and they chose to tell this one in a way that somewhat de-emphasised Rey's importance in her own right.

You never doubt that Harry Potter is the central hero, and that's not only because he's a male. You never doubt that Lyra is the central hero of His Dark Materials, either. You never doubt that WALL-E is the hero of WALL-E, or that Merida is the hero of Brave. And so on. Their respective journeys are never overshadowed by the journeys of others, though other characters may be more interesting.

By the first act, most central protagonists seem to have some kind of a clarified role or purpose, no matter what that role or purpose is. Lizzy Bennet isn't an epic hero, but by the first act of her story, she has made it clear that she will only marry someone she can esteem, unlike Charlotte Lucas. Jane Eyre has made it clear that she'll be in charge of her own fate, however hard it might be. Luke Skywalker plays the most crucial role in destroying the Death Star and by the end of the first film it is amply clear that he is the "new hope", that this story is mainly his to live through.

By contrast, Rey still isn't strongly established in that central role, and she has no established purpose yet. She becomes a hero when she defeats Kylo, but that is a very ambiguous battle - as we know - and it ends with her looking at him with concern (not to mention that she defeated the man whom Leia flagged as the object of the quest: "I want him back"). Finn and Han had more active roles in destroying the SKB. But I don't mean to be greedy here; I'm not saying the female hero should get all the victories and accomplishments. The very end, however, still fails to establish her as the true central hero. She gets the Excalibur... and then she goes on a journey to hand over the Excalibur to someone else who appears to be narratively more important.

In fact, a lot of Reywalkers are asking: "If Rey isn't a Skywalker, what's the point of all this?" That kind of illustrates what I mean. It isn't just that they're wearing Skywalker goggles, though that plays into it a lot, I'm sure. But it's also that Rey's importance in her own right hasn't yet been established in TFA. People expected her to have a clear journey, and finding her father in the end of TFA would "make sense" from that point of view, because finding her parents was the strong desire of the Rey we first met. She was planted in the middle of Skywalker family drama, threatening to be engulfed by Luke's mystery and Kylo's mystery and their impending conflict. I don't think it's much of a wonder that many people are expecting her to be a Skywalker, because her own story still plays second fiddle to the Skywalker story. And of course, the Skywalker story is mainly Kylo's.

It doesn't mean that this won't change. I hope and believe it will. But the point is, heroes aren't made by creating a likeable character and then pointing at her or him, "look, this is the hero". They need to be clearly positioned as heroes, and they need a heroic purpose. The whole thing doesn't have to formulaic at all, but I just... I don't know. I blame the Mystery Box, once again.

I brought up the ridiculous lack of Rey merchandise in the other thread because it seems to me that they're not quite confident of a female hero carrying the franchise, and I find that very disappointing.

Though of course it could be that this trilogy will be more of an ensemble piece. But I did expect Rey to be the most important central character.

And I really, really hope that Rey's parentage will play a crucial and organic role in the plot of the ST instead of being an anticlimax because that is something that's entirely her own. Her stated purpose, from the beginning: to get her family back. She has been stoically waiting for them for years. That is the story of the Rey we meet in TFA. Her parentage mystery won't upstage her as a character if it is actually a crucial part of her character development, as it seems to be. It's not like Luke's parentage upstaged his journey. Far from it. I hope that this - Rey's own story - won't be brushed aside in favour of the Skywalker story. That's all.
@Darth Dingbat

I remeber Daisy saying that to her Rey is not a heroine but an ordinary girl who went on an adventure and thats he had a talk with JJ about it.
I also think Rey's parentage shouldn't be unimportant.At the end of the day what matters is who Rey is as a person but her being the eyes of the GA as the Skywalker drama is unfodling wouldn't be enough for me and it wouldnt be fair to Rey as well.I think she deserves to find out whose the family she's been waiting for half of her life.Her parenatge just isn't like with Finn where the audience doesn't care because it wasn't epmhasized the way Rey's is and it just being a red herring would be kind of dissapointing.

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Post by ZenBrainJam on Mon 30 May - 2:56

@Saracene wrote:
@ZenBrainJam wrote:IDK... Luke wasn't so well developed. Farm boy go to adventure, discovering he is a FS. Scavenger goes to adventure, just to bring BB8 to resistance, discovering she is FS she refuses the call then accept it. It's just the same, with little difference. But with females we ask for more, maybe because we can't believe that a female hero can function as a male one, maybe because this time the villain is much more developed.
@ZenBrainJam

The big difference is that Rey has no equivalent of Luke's "I want to be a Jedi like my father" - a clear goal and ambition. What she wants to do for most of the movie is go back to Jakku and wait for her family until the cows come home. She basically wants to stay passive, whereas Luke wants to get out there and do things.
@Saracene
It's not the so called passive behavior, it's the lack of a clear "box", or place, or role, for Rey. Kylo is easy to understand, if you like him or not it doesn't matter, you know why in any case. You know little about his past, but it doesn't matter. Finn is not so developed, but you know what is his place into the story. With Rey I feel that it's different, something is lacking, maybe is the mistery box problem as already pointed out...


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Post by Darth Dingbat on Mon 30 May - 3:02

@CienaRee wrote:
@Darth Dingbat wrote:Regarding the earlier discussion of Rey's characterisation and whether or not she's too passive... It's not her wanting to stay on Jakku that makes her "unworthy" of being a hero. She has been stoically waiting for her family to come back. Nothing in that makes her unworthy of being a hero; she's perfect hero material. My problem is that in TFA, she never really gets to occupy the role of a hero. I'm sure it was partly because of the Mystery Box: they tried to hide the real hero as long as possible which is, IMO, stupid storytelling and why TFA seems more like a prologue than the real first installment. But even at the end of the film, she still doesn't occupy the position of a hero, though she has all the credentials for being one.

It's hard for me to explain why I found Rey's treatment as a hero somewhat disappointing. It's definitely not that I expect her to be even more perfect and capable before I would find her "worthy", nor do I expect her to be especially nuanced and conflicted and interesting. As has been pointed out, heroes often aren't. But it's the way she is positioned in the story that I find lacking. It makes sense with the way the story played out, but as I said in another topic, a story can be told in a million other ways... and they chose to tell this one in a way that somewhat de-emphasised Rey's importance in her own right.

You never doubt that Harry Potter is the central hero, and that's not only because he's a male. You never doubt that Lyra is the central hero of His Dark Materials, either. You never doubt that WALL-E is the hero of WALL-E, or that Merida is the hero of Brave. And so on. Their respective journeys are never overshadowed by the journeys of others, though other characters may be more interesting.

By the first act, most central protagonists seem to have some kind of a clarified role or purpose, no matter what that role or purpose is. Lizzy Bennet isn't an epic hero, but by the first act of her story, she has made it clear that she will only marry someone she can esteem, unlike Charlotte Lucas. Jane Eyre has made it clear that she'll be in charge of her own fate, however hard it might be. Luke Skywalker plays the most crucial role in destroying the Death Star and by the end of the first film it is amply clear that he is the "new hope", that this story is mainly his to live through.

By contrast, Rey still isn't strongly established in that central role, and she has no established purpose yet. She becomes a hero when she defeats Kylo, but that is a very ambiguous battle - as we know - and it ends with her looking at him with concern (not to mention that she defeated the man whom Leia flagged as the object of the quest: "I want him back"). Finn and Han had more active roles in destroying the SKB. But I don't mean to be greedy here; I'm not saying the female hero should get all the victories and accomplishments. The very end, however, still fails to establish her as the true central hero. She gets the Excalibur... and then she goes on a journey to hand over the Excalibur to someone else who appears to be narratively more important.

In fact, a lot of Reywalkers are asking: "If Rey isn't a Skywalker, what's the point of all this?" That kind of illustrates what I mean. It isn't just that they're wearing Skywalker goggles, though that plays into it a lot, I'm sure. But it's also that Rey's importance in her own right hasn't yet been established in TFA. People expected her to have a clear journey, and finding her father in the end of TFA would "make sense" from that point of view, because finding her parents was the strong desire of the Rey we first met. She was planted in the middle of Skywalker family drama, threatening to be engulfed by Luke's mystery and Kylo's mystery and their impending conflict. I don't think it's much of a wonder that many people are expecting her to be a Skywalker, because her own story still plays second fiddle to the Skywalker story. And of course, the Skywalker story is mainly Kylo's.

It doesn't mean that this won't change. I hope and believe it will. But the point is, heroes aren't made by creating a likeable character and then pointing at her or him, "look, this is the hero". They need to be clearly positioned as heroes, and they need a heroic purpose. The whole thing doesn't have to formulaic at all, but I just... I don't know. I blame the Mystery Box, once again.

I brought up the ridiculous lack of Rey merchandise in the other thread because it seems to me that they're not quite confident of a female hero carrying the franchise, and I find that very disappointing.

Though of course it could be that this trilogy will be more of an ensemble piece. But I did expect Rey to be the most important central character.

And I really, really hope that Rey's parentage will play a crucial and organic role in the plot of the ST instead of being an anticlimax because that is something that's entirely her own. Her stated purpose, from the beginning: to get her family back. She has been stoically waiting for them for years. That is the story of the Rey we meet in TFA. Her parentage mystery won't upstage her as a character if it is actually a crucial part of her character development, as it seems to be. It's not like Luke's parentage upstaged his journey. Far from it. I hope that this - Rey's own story - won't be brushed aside in favour of the Skywalker story. That's all.
@Darth Dingbat

I remeber Daisy saying that to her Rey is not a heroine but an ordinary girl who went on an adventure and thats he had a talk with JJ about it.

I also think Rey's parentage shouldn't be unimportant.At the end of the day what matters is who Rey is as a person but her being the eyes of the GA as the Skywalker drama is unfodling wouldn't be enough for me and it wouldnt be fair to Rey as well.I think she deserves to find out whose the family she's been waiting for half of her life.Her parenatge just isn't like with Finn where the audience doesn't care because it wasn't epmhasized the way Rey's is and it just being a red herring would be kind of dissapointing.
@CienaRee

But that's how most heroes start out... as ordinary people, even unlikely hero material sometimes, who go on a journey.

Would they have described Luke that way, I wonder? Just an ordinary boy who went on an adventure? Luke was an ordinary boy who turned out to be extraordinary, with a special purpose in life. That seemed to be the case with Rey as well. It seems something of a cop-out to emphasise now that she's just an ordinary girl who went on an adventure... it's already been revealed that there's something very special about her, so they really should establish her unique journey by now, with that "specialness" in mind.

I do find the "her parentage doesn't really matter" talk kind of a cop-out as well, though I understand it's in response to all the theories that are overshadowing her character. But Rey's family - the mystery, and her longing for answers - is the very heart of her character. The parentage mystery itself could take her on an amazing journey that's entirely her own and not an extension of Skywalker drama.
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Post by CienaRee on Mon 30 May - 3:08

@Darth Dingbat wrote:
@CienaRee wrote:
@Darth Dingbat wrote:Regarding the earlier discussion of Rey's characterisation and whether or not she's too passive... It's not her wanting to stay on Jakku that makes her "unworthy" of being a hero. She has been stoically waiting for her family to come back. Nothing in that makes her unworthy of being a hero; she's perfect hero material. My problem is that in TFA, she never really gets to occupy the role of a hero. I'm sure it was partly because of the Mystery Box: they tried to hide the real hero as long as possible which is,  IMO, stupid storytelling and why TFA seems more like a prologue than the real first installment. But even at the end of the film, she still doesn't occupy the position of a hero, though she has all the credentials for being one.

It's hard for me to explain why I found Rey's treatment as a hero somewhat disappointing. It's definitely not that I expect her to be even more perfect and capable before I would find her "worthy", nor do I expect her to be especially nuanced and conflicted and interesting. As has been pointed out, heroes often aren't. But it's the way she is positioned in the story that I find lacking. It makes sense with the way the story played out, but as I said in another topic, a story can be told in a million other ways... and they chose to tell this one in a way that somewhat de-emphasised Rey's importance in her own right.

You never doubt that Harry Potter is the central hero, and that's not only because he's a male. You never doubt that Lyra is the central hero of His Dark Materials, either. You never doubt that WALL-E is the hero of WALL-E, or that Merida is the hero of Brave. And so on. Their respective journeys are never overshadowed by the journeys of others, though other characters may be more interesting.

By the first act, most central protagonists seem to have some kind of a clarified role or purpose, no matter what that role or purpose is. Lizzy Bennet isn't an epic hero, but by the first act of her story, she has made it clear that she will only marry someone she can esteem, unlike Charlotte Lucas. Jane Eyre has made it clear that she'll be in charge of her own fate, however hard it might be. Luke Skywalker plays the most crucial role in destroying the Death Star and by the end of the first film it is amply clear that he is the "new hope", that this story is mainly his to live through.

By contrast, Rey still isn't strongly established in that central role, and she has no established purpose yet. She becomes a hero when she defeats Kylo, but that is a very ambiguous battle - as we know - and it ends with her looking at him with concern (not to mention that she defeated the man whom Leia flagged as the object of the quest: "I want him back"). Finn and Han had more active roles in destroying the SKB. But I don't mean to be greedy here; I'm not saying the female hero should get all the victories and accomplishments. The very end, however, still fails to establish her as the true central hero. She gets the Excalibur... and then she goes on a journey to hand over the Excalibur to someone else who appears to be narratively more important.

In fact, a lot of Reywalkers are asking: "If Rey isn't a Skywalker, what's the point of all this?" That kind of illustrates what I mean. It isn't just that they're wearing Skywalker goggles, though that plays into it a lot, I'm sure. But it's also that Rey's importance in her own right hasn't yet been established in TFA. People expected her to have a clear journey, and finding her father in the end of TFA would "make sense" from that point of view, because finding her parents was the strong desire of the Rey we first met. She was planted in the middle of Skywalker family drama, threatening to be engulfed by Luke's mystery and Kylo's mystery and their impending conflict. I don't think it's much of a wonder that many people are expecting her to be a Skywalker, because her own story still plays second fiddle to the Skywalker story. And of course, the Skywalker story is mainly Kylo's.

It doesn't mean that this won't change. I hope and believe it will. But the point is, heroes aren't made by creating a likeable character and then pointing at her or him, "look, this is the hero". They need to be clearly positioned as heroes, and they need a heroic purpose. The whole thing doesn't have to formulaic at all, but I just... I don't know. I blame the Mystery Box, once again.

I brought up the ridiculous lack of Rey merchandise in the other thread because it seems to me that they're not quite confident of a female hero carrying the franchise, and I find that very disappointing.

Though of course it could be that this trilogy will be more of an ensemble piece. But I did expect Rey to be the most important central character.

And I really, really hope that Rey's parentage will play a crucial and organic role in the plot of the ST instead of being an anticlimax because that is something that's entirely her own. Her stated purpose, from the beginning: to get her family back. She has been stoically waiting for them for years. That is the story of the Rey we meet in TFA. Her parentage mystery won't upstage her as a character if it is actually a crucial part of her character development, as it seems to be. It's not like Luke's parentage upstaged his journey. Far from it. I hope that this - Rey's own story - won't be brushed aside in favour of the Skywalker story. That's all.
@Darth Dingbat

I remeber Daisy saying that to her Rey is not a heroine but an ordinary girl who went on an adventure and thats he had a talk with JJ about it.

I also think Rey's parentage shouldn't be unimportant.At the end of the day what matters is who Rey is as a person but her being the eyes of the GA as the Skywalker drama is unfodling wouldn't be enough for me and it wouldnt be fair to Rey as well.I think she deserves to find out whose the family  she's been waiting for half of her life.Her parenatge just isn't like with Finn where the audience doesn't care because it wasn't epmhasized the way Rey's is and it just being a red herring would be kind of dissapointing.
@CienaRee

But that's how most heroes start out... as ordinary people, even unlikely hero material sometimes, who go on a journey.

Would they have described Luke that way, I wonder? Just an ordinary boy who went on an adventure? Luke was an ordinary boy who turned out to be extraordinary, with a special purpose in life. That seemed to be the case with Rey as well. It seems something of a cop-out to emphasise now that she's just an ordinary girl who went on an adventure... it's already been revealed that there's something very special about her, so they really should establish her unique journey by now, with that "specialness" in mind.

I do find the "her parentage doesn't really matter" talk kind of a cop-out as well, though I understand it's in response to all the theories that are overshadowing her character. But Rey's family - the mystery, and her longing for answers - is the very heart of her character. The parentage mystery itself could take her on an amazing journey that's entirely her own and not an extension of Skywalker drama.
@Darth Dingbat

You're probably right,but here's the exact quote: Daisy Ridley: "Well. Rey starts alone - and I did not mean 'Solo' when I said 'solitary'." "Is she an orphan? Who's to say?" "And the word 'heroine' keeps getting mentioned, which I don't agree with. When JJ and I talked about this, he said: 'She's an ordinary girl, in extraordinary circumstances." (Glamour UK magazine January 2016)

IMO,you can feel Daisy is trying to make people understand that Rey is more important than her parents and at the same tim really eblives her character is relatable to people.Seriously if Rey  was played by a lesser actress  I can only imagine how she would have looked like to the auidence:

Daisy Ridley: "Who is [Rey]? " "I'm so excited for everyone to see [Rey's] journey." "I don't think you'll be disappointed." (April 30, 2015)
Daisy Ridley: "The true story of Rey will be revealed in December 2015..." (November 4, 2015)
Daisy Ridley: "[Rey]’s been alone for a long time." "When something occurs when you’re 5, you know what went on but you don’t understand the reasoning. She's hopeful for what lies ahead, whether that involves the past or not." "Hope makes people good, a lot of the time." "You hope for a brighter future, and resentment is outweighed." (November 11, 2015)
Daisy Ridley: "[Rey]’s never sat around a table and had a meal with someone else. She works to feed herself, and she goes to sleep, and she gets up again. It is a sad life." "The film, for Rey, is a journey of finding out that no one is no one." (November 11, 2015)
Daisy Ridley: "I think the crux of Rey’s story is that she begins alone and she is thrust into this adventure and reaches new possibilities and heights — heights, ha ha ha, in a spaceship — that she never believed she could have done. She’s pushed beyond her limits; she meets people and forms relationships she never imagined was possible. And everything she does exceeds everything she could have ever imagined. So it’s a really wonderful story. Her story is so relatable — if you take away space and everything. She’s just a young girl on a journey trying to do the right thing." "You’ll have to wait and see [if Rey is Han and Leia's daughter]." (December 4, 2015)

The links the quotes come from:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=je8R6fQPr_o
http://www.ew.com/gallery/star-wars-force-awakens-exclusive-photos/2374793_all-crops-gallery-star-wars-force-awakens-2015-daisy-ridley
http://www.refinery29.com/2015/12/98808/daisy-ridley-star-wars-force-awakens-interview


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Post by Darth Dingbat on Mon 30 May - 3:10

@Saracene wrote:
@ZenBrainJam wrote:IDK... Luke wasn't so well developed. Farm boy go to adventure, discovering he is a FS. Scavenger goes to adventure, just to bring BB8 to resistance, discovering she is FS she refuses the call then accept it. It's just the same, with little difference. But with females we ask for more, maybe because we can't believe that a female hero can function as a male one, maybe because this time the villain is much more developed.
@ZenBrainJam

The big difference is that Rey has no equivalent of Luke's "I want to be a Jedi like my father" - a clear goal and ambition. What she wants to do for most of the movie is go back to Jakku and wait for her family until the cows come home. She basically wants to stay passive, whereas Luke wants to get out there and do things.
@Saracene

On the other hand, the girl who has stubbornly waited for her family for years upon years is a great starting point for a unique journey of her own. I hope they go somewhere with it.
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Post by CienaRee on Mon 30 May - 3:22

This is also anotehr interesting quote by KK from a Japanese interview:
"This is a generational family saga and that fundamentally has been very important to us to continue that. And the drama inherent in that is the tension between good and evil."
https://thecantina.starwarsnewsnet.com/index.php?threads/general-star-wars-the-force-awakens-news-rumors-thread.153/page-173#post-82083


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Post by Reynak on Mon 30 May - 4:11

The "problem", if it can be cosidered a problem is that ST is again, or so it seems, the Skywalkers' story, which is fine with me, this is what KK and JJ insisted on in their interviews. And in that respect they did it well, but they chose tho place the Skywalker of this generation in the villainous role and not as a protagonist, leaving the protagonist role to another, at least in theorty, because in the practice, Kylo made TFA, his dynamic moved the plot forward and also brought the pathos and the emotional side the story had.

Rey would be OK if she was another Obi1 Kenobi figure, I mean, the Skywalkers's only hope again. If that's her role, I'm fine with it, what matters is that they took the risk to make the villain the "main character" as regards importance in the plot and this blurs the limits and significance of Rey's role.

If she is not a traditional heroic character we don't have to expect her to have a quest that is her own in particular. In ANH Luke was the hero and I don't think anyone doubted it, and he was a hero in the traditional sense. Vader played the role of a traditional villain and was incredibly charismatic at that, but he never damaged Luke's character or engulfed it.

Kylo didn't eat up the whole movie because he was only 25 minutes on screen at the most. This happens because of AD's great performance and screen presence but also because of how stylish Kylo is with those robes and the mask, the way he walks doesn't hurt the effect either, LOL. That and the fact that the story is about him.

What I mean is that Kylo is very cool before he unmasks, he would have made a great Vader 2.0, but when he started to show his humanity it was clear the writers and director were after more, he was given as much attention as a main character. Some loved this but others hated it because it breaks the rules this type of stories usually adscribe to. In ANH everyone fit their role to perfection, Kylo and Rey in TFA don't. I love this, I do, but it leads to confusion in some cases because there are expectations that come from what we know of storytelling beforehand but also because they were created by the way the characters were introduced and behaved in the first part of the movie.

I think I'd love it if Rey shared her main character status with Kylo but for real. This would mean that she would be given as much attention as him and her characterization would be as cared for by the writers and as consistent as his. Or perhaps I shouldn't hope for that and should just enjoy a story that is about the Skywalkers again, about him in particular, about his journey through hell and back. It will probably be worth the ride and I'll love it, but... I want Rey have her story too, this is what is difficult.It's about balance, pun totally intended.

Villains don't get a heoro's journey in movies, not usually, but Kylo is going to get his, it has already started. It starts in a dark place but it is a hero's journey IMO. He is not a hero (or is he?) but his story and his journey are treated as if he was. As we have read in a quote often shared here, villains remain static and heores evolve. Kylo is like a hero because he is dynamic and evolves. So we have Kylo's journey, but if Rey is a heroine, what is her journey? Shall we have two journey's then?

That's too much for a movie trilogy and I guess we'll have only a main journey, which is mainly his. What is not clear at all is what her journey will be. For me, she seemed the keeper, the only hope again, very much like Obi1 was in ANH, but she is not a mentor like he was, so this is why this is confusing. It isn't easy to decide her role, not the nominal one but the real one.

I don't mind it if they break the rules and cross boudaries, I am OK with it, but it isn't easy. Playing by the rules is safer that subverting and going beyond boundaries. I think we may have a great story and I'd like Rey to be really important in it. I already love Kylo, he is fascinating, but I want more for Rey, both as regards plot and characterization. She can't be just a generic heroine and hold her own as a character next to fascinating Kylo or he'll eat her up. Luke and Kylo are both larger than life, I hope Ach-to doesn't make her seem a guest in their party.

I wouldn't like to see her all the time as a guest in the middle of characters that have so much weight and overshadow her. She left Jakku and she was thrown into another's story, Kylo's story. This is very much like what happened in Rebecca, where the shadow of the dead wife invaded every corner of the house, or so it seemed. This could be amazing if played well, this girl following the steps of the lost son, but Rebecca was dead and Ben is still alive. I hope he doesn't overshadow Rey and they can be equally important, like yin and yang, but I doubt this will happen, I think this will always feel like Ben Solo's story. I'm not sure I don't want him to dominate the story completely, LOL. But seriously, I want an  important role for Rey, not just a vehicle to help bring the Skywalkers' story back to life.


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Post by spacebaby45678 on Mon 30 May - 4:29

This is a great discussion, one that I enjoy reading very much. Everyone here I am pretty sure knows my position, as I have come to read Rey as Kenobi, in which most of her behavior and role makes complete 100% total sense. And, maybe in retrospect if she is a Kenobi, it will make sense to the viewers as they watch the trilogy anew again. (IMHO) I just don't know how you make Rey THE story in a saga about Skywalkers over all unless she is a Skywalker herself, by blood, or unless she is a Kenobi who in the PT was a dual protagonist with Anakin.

When, one says they want her to have her own story, in the context of Star Wars what would that mean? A cooler costume? Given her background, an abandoned child, alone in the world, what would be a worthy goal or quest for her? Should she be a tortured character with tons of pathos?

Rey is definitely on the heroines journey, she just has not dipped down into the Abyss just yet, but it is coming... will it be film noir version of a tortured heroine? I am betting it won't be and I hope people will not be disappointed that it won't come off as layered and deep. Rey will go down to the abyss but she will bounce back fast, it is her character to do so.
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Post by ZenBrainJam on Mon 30 May - 4:30

@Reynak wrote:The "problem", if it can be cosidered a problem is that ST is again, or so it seems, the Skywalkers' story, which is fine with me, this is what KK and JJ insisted on in their interviews. And in that respect they did it well, but they chose tho place the Skywalker of this generation in the villainous role and not as a protagonist, leaving the protagonist role to another, at least in theorty, because in the practice, Kylo made TFA, his dynamic moved the plot forward and also brought the pathos and the emotional side the story had.

Rey would be OK if she was another Obi1 Kenobi figure, I mean, the Skywalkers's only hope again. If that's her role, I'm fine with it, what matters is that they took the risk to make the villain the "main character" as regards importance in the plot and this blurs the limits and significance of Rey's role.

If she is not a traditional heroic character we don't have to expect her to have a quest that is her own in particualar. In ANH Luke was the hero and I don't think anyone doubted it, and he was a hero in the traditional sense. Vader played the role of a traditional villain and was incredibly charismatic at that, but he never damaged Luke's character or engulfed it.

Kylo didn't eat up the whole movie because he was only 25 minutes on screen at the most. This happens because of AD's great performance and screen presence but also because of how stylish Kylo is with those robes and the mask, the way he walks doesn't hurt the effect either, LOL. That and that the story is about him.

What I mean is that Kylo is very cool before he unmasks, he would have made a great Vader 2.0, but when he started to show his humanity it was clear the writers and director were after more, he was given as much attention as a main character. Some loved this but others hated it because it breaks the rueles this type of stories usually adscribe to. In ANH everyone fit their role to perfection, Kylo and Rey in TFA don't. I love this, I do, but it leads to confusion in some cases because there are expectations that come from what we know of storytelling beforehand but also because they were created by the way the characters were introduced and behaved in the first part of the movie.

I think I'd love it if Rey shared her main character status with Kylo but for real. This would mean that she would be given as much attention as him and her characterization would be as cared for by the writers and as consistent as his. Or perhaps I shouldn't hope for that and should just enjoy a story that is about the Skywalkers again, about him in particular, about his journey through hell and back. It will probably be worth the ride and I'll love it, but... I want Rey have her story too, this is what is difficult.

Villains don't get a heoro's journey in movies, not usually, but Kylo is going to get his, it has already started. It starts in a dark place but it is a hero's journey IMO. He is not a hero (or is he?) but his story and his journey are treated as if he was. As we have read in a quote often shared here, villains remain static and heores evolve. Kylo is like a hero because he is dynamic and evolves. So we have Kylo's journey, but if Rey is a heroine, what is her journey? Shall we have two journey's then?

That's too much for a movie trilogy and I guess we'll have only a main journey, which is mainly his. What is not clear at all is what her journey will be. For me, she seemed the keeper, the only hope again, very much like Obi1 was in ANH, but she is not a mentor like he was, so this is why this is confusing. It isn't easy to decide her role, not the nominal one but the real one.

I don't mind it if they break the rules and cross boudaries, I am OK with it, but it isn't easy. Playing by the rules is safer that subverting and going beyond boundaries. I think we may have a great story and I'd like Rey to be really important in it. I already love Kylo, he is fascinating, but I want more for Rey, both as regards plot and characterization. She can't be just a generic heroine and hold her own as a character next to fascinating Kylo or he'll eat her up. Luke and Kylo are both larger than life, I hope Ach-to doesn't make her seem a guest in their party.

I wouldn't like to see her all the time as a guest in the middle of characters that have so much weight and overshadow her. She left Jakku and she was thrown into another's story, Kylo's story. This is very much like what happened in Rebecca, where the shadow of the dead wife invaded every corner of the house, or so it seemed. This could be amazing if played well, this girl following the steps of the lost son, but Rebecca was dead and Ben is still alive. I hope he doesn't overshadow Rey and they can be equally important, like yin and yang, but I doubt this will happen, I think this will always feel like Ben Solo's story. I'm not sure I don't want him to dominate the story completely, LOL. Seriously, I want an  important role for Rey, not just a vehicle to help bring the Skywalkers' story back to life.
@Reynak

If they will be able to intertwined both path, the redemption arc/hero journey and the heroine journey it would be awesome. Difficult but amazing for sure. I don't know if two movies are enough..


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Post by BastilaBey on Mon 30 May - 4:36

I think that Rey - or Kira - was originally going to be the legacy child and Jedi Killer was unrelated. JJ has said there was always going to be a central love story, and he said this before Finn had been developed as a character. While there's currently no evidence for it, my theory is that he and Kasdan decided to switch Jedi Killer to the legacy child in order to make the audience more receptive to his redemption. There might not be such an emotional investment otherwise.

Which definitely makes sense as an idea, but the problem is it creates issues like those discussed above about Rey's journey as a heroine. I don't like to think of her as a satellite in the Skywalker saga, she deserves more than that and hopefully will have developed ideas about what she wants in the next film. Waiting for her family makes sense at first, but Luke's journey resolved the element of rejecting the call and staying on tattooine very quickly. His aunt and uncle died and he felt he had to leave to save the princess. Clear goal, right there. They seemed to purposely make Rey's acceptance of the call vague, as if it should be part of the mystery box of the character. It means people obsess over her parentage because they want to see Rey happy and think that's what will achieve that for her, when she finds them. But if you know much about the heroine's journey, it's not likely to be happy news for her. It has to be something that adds to her struggle and shakes her world.

This is something the mSW guys discussed a few weeks ago too. They had a long debate about whether Kylo could be redeemed and how that might play out, and one of them wondered if it takes the story away from Rey. Jason was like 'well Rey's story is kind of weird at the moment, she's like just waiting for her family and then oh I've got the force, oh cool Luke skywalker's here', kind of echoing the comments above about how she is reactive to what happens rather than proactive. And then that's when he said 'at some point, Rey and Kylo have to have something more going down, I don't know if it's romance or complete hatred', etc. So other people have recognized the issue even if they might not be framing it in the heroine journey model. Her story doesn't really give us much to work with at that point, but it makes more sense when positioned in contrast/complement to Kylo's. Lots of people still aren't receptive to that dynamic deepening though.
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Post by spacebaby45678 on Mon 30 May - 4:48

@BastilaBey

GL, always meant for the protagonist of the ST to be a female, Kira, ( per Pablo) the pre JJ & Kasdan days, concept art always had "Kira" read Kenobi.

Rey/Kira was never random, from the earliest conception before GL's ideas where thrown out, and Arndt was replaced by Kasdan. GL is meticulous, his attention to detail is extraordinary. As much as I love Kasdan's writing, which he does wonderfully, it is within the framework that GL has set up.
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Post by BastilaBey on Mon 30 May - 4:50

@spacebaby45678 wrote:@BastilaBey

GL, always meant for the protagonist of the ST to be a female, Kira, ( per Pablo) the pre JJ & Kasdan days, concept art always had "Kira" read Kenobi.

Rey/Kira was never random, from the earliest conception before GL's ideas where thrown out, and Arndt was replaced by Kasdan. GL is meticulous, his attention to detail is extraordinary. As much as I love Kasdan's writing, which he does wonderfully, it is within the framework that GL has set up.
@spacebaby45678

Maybe I didn't make it clear in my post, but I agree that the female character was always intended to be the protagonist. I just think they switched the legacy child role from hero to villain, so the villain is now the Skywalker. It was a pretty bold move and some people still aren't ok with it. It's why they're still so desperate for Rey to be a Skywalker too.
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Post by Mana on Mon 30 May - 5:00

@BastilaBey wrote:I think that Rey - or Kira - was originally going to be the legacy child and Jedi Killer was unrelated. JJ has said there was always going to be a central love story, and he said this before Finn had been developed as a character. While there's currently no evidence for it, my theory is that he and Kasdan decided to switch Jedi Killer to the legacy child in order to make the audience more receptive to his redemption. There might not be such an emotional investment otherwise.

Which definitely makes sense as an idea, but the problem is it creates issues like those discussed above about Rey's journey as a heroine. I don't like to think of her as a satellite in the Skywalker saga, she deserves more than that and hopefully will have developed ideas about what she wants in the next film. Waiting for her family makes sense at first, but Luke's journey resolved the element of rejecting the call and staying on tattooine very quickly. His aunt and uncle died and he felt he had to leave to save the princess. Clear goal, right there. They seemed to purposely make Rey's acceptance of the call vague, as if it should be part of the mystery box of the character. It means people obsess over her parentage because they want to see Rey happy and think that's what will achieve that for her, when she finds them. But if you know much about the heroine's journey, it's not likely to be happy news for her. It has to be something that adds to her struggle and shakes her world.

This is something the mSW guys discussed a few weeks ago too. They had a long debate about whether Kylo could be redeemed and how that might play out, and one of them wondered if it takes the story away from Rey. Jason was like 'well Rey's story is kind of weird at the moment, she's like just waiting for her family and then oh I've got the force, oh cool Luke skywalker's here', kind of echoing the comments above about how she is reactive to what happens rather than proactive. And then that's when he said 'at some point, Rey and Kylo have to have something more going down, I don't know if it's romance or complete hatred', etc. So other people have recognized the issue even if they might not be framing it in the heroine journey model. Her story doesn't really give us much to work with at that point, but it makes more sense when positioned in contrast/complement to Kylo's. Lots of people still aren't receptive to that dynamic deepening though.
@BastilaBey

Yeah, I think when Michael Arndt first wrote the script, he wrote Rey as the legacy child and Kylo was the 'random'....JJ said when he took over he started everything from scratch, but that was in October I think? and by then he had been saying since July that there would be a central love story. It was always either one or the other.
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Post by spacebaby45678 on Mon 30 May - 5:08

@BastilaBey wrote:
@spacebaby45678 wrote:@BastilaBey

GL, always meant for the protagonist of the ST to be a female,  Kira, ( per Pablo) the pre JJ & Kasdan days, concept art always had "Kira" read Kenobi.

Rey/Kira was never random, from the earliest conception before GL's ideas where thrown out, and Arndt was replaced by Kasdan. GL is meticulous, his attention to detail is extraordinary. As much as I love Kasdan's writing, which he does wonderfully, it  is within the framework that GL has set up.
@spacebaby45678

Maybe I didn't make it clear in my post, but I agree that the female character was always intended to be the protagonist. I just think they switched the legacy child role from hero to villain, so the villain is now the Skywalker. It was a pretty bold move and some people still aren't ok with it. It's why they're still so desperate for Rey to be a Skywalker too.
@BastilaBey

Doing really  extensive research, looking at concept art that predates JJ, Kasdan era of TFA, GL was foreshadowing Kira Kenobi. And looking through those Kenobi colored lenses that is why her character can come off as almost bland sometimes, she is stalworth, intrepid, and faithful, always ready for a crusade and to take on the good fight. These are classic Kenobi traits, but in the shadow of Kylo, maybe a little dull.

In the novelette, BTFA, there is an extensive story about her and her friends rebuilding a ship they find. Ultimately her compatriots want to leave Jakku, but the only thing Rey wants is to sell the ship to Unkar to get more portions so she can stay and wait even longer for her family. Her friends leave her and fly away, she does not even get mad because she knows leaving was the right thing to do. The only reason she ends up leaving Jakku in TFA, is because she does the RIGHT thing, she does not sell the droid and FATE takes it out of her hands when Finn escapes the FO and runs right into her. And, again when she runs away from the call at Maz's castle FATE takes her escape out of her hands. Rey runs right into Kylo.

Maybe in an era where dark heroes are more romanticized and considered "interesting" a real white hat like Rey may seem like she is not having her own story or lacks depth, but her FAITH is her depth. And, isn't it interesting that Family is what she wants the most, to be loved? What is wrong with that? Isn't it what we all want on a human level? Isn't love the greatest quest of all?
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Post by BastilaBey on Mon 30 May - 5:11

@Mana Exactly. And this sounds super cynical so I hope it's not actually how it all went down, but it makes me feel similarly to how it seemed when Finn holding the lightsaber was revealed to be something of a marketing red herring. Rey not being the Skywalker makes her less of a protagonist in some people's eyes. Is our hero a red herring for the true main character, the Skywalker/Solo legacy boy? I think that's honestly why some people seem to dislike him so strongly. Would there be a backlash when the audience realizes that as progressive as TFA seems, the underlying story is about our white male villain and not our female heroine or our black hero? They are still the protagonists, but I'm not sure it's the same thing. They are unrelated characters thrust into the trilogies that are always about this one family.

It's a vocal minority that has a strong issue with Kylo, perhaps, but it's based on the confusion that the saga needs to always be about the Skywalkers, according to its creators, and yet it's become increasingly clear that our heroine is not a Skywalker. So where does that leave us? The story isn't really about her? If you see Reylo and acknowledge it, it makes sense to you how Rey is still the main character. But if you don't, it has to be a little strange.
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Post by Maria Antonietta on Mon 30 May - 5:26

@BastilaBey wrote:@Mana Exactly. And this sounds super cynical so I hope it's not actually how it all went down, but it makes me feel similarly to how it seemed when Finn holding the lightsaber was revealed to be something of a marketing red herring. Rey not being the Skywalker makes her less of a protagonist in some people's eyes. Is our hero a red herring for the true main character, the Skywalker/Solo legacy boy? I think that's honestly why some people seem to dislike him so strongly. Would there be a backlash when the audience realizes that as progressive as TFA seems, the underlying story is about our white male villain and not our female heroine or our black hero? They are still the protagonists, but I'm not sure it's the same thing. They are unrelated characters thrust into the trilogies that are always about this one family.

It's a vocal minority that has a strong issue with Kylo, perhaps, but it's based on the confusion that the saga needs to always be about the Skywalkers, according to its creators, and yet it's become increasingly clear that our heroine is not a Skywalker. So where does that leave us? The story isn't really about her? If you see Reylo and acknowledge it, it makes sense to you how Rey is still the main character. But if you don't, it has to be a little strange.
@BastilaBey

Nerds will always have problems, but the GA doesn't give two siths. Especially kids, no matter what, they'll love her.
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Post by spacebaby45678 on Mon 30 May - 5:28

@BastilaBey wrote:
@spacebaby45678 wrote:@BastilaBey

GL, always meant for the protagonist of the ST to be a female,  Kira, ( per Pablo) the pre JJ & Kasdan days, concept art always had "Kira" read Kenobi.

Rey/Kira was never random, from the earliest conception before GL's ideas where thrown out, and Arndt was replaced by Kasdan. GL is meticulous, his attention to detail is extraordinary. As much as I love Kasdan's writing, which he does wonderfully, it  is within the framework that GL has set up.
@spacebaby45678

Maybe I didn't make it clear in my post, but I agree that the female character was always intended to be the protagonist. I just think they switched the legacy child role from hero to villain, so the villain is now the Skywalker. It was a pretty bold move and some people still aren't ok with it. It's why they're still so desperate for Rey to be a Skywalker too.
@BastilaBey

i just want to clarify, but it is off topic so I will end it with this..... something for some to consider... If you go back and do historical research, on the published articles, the female protagonist was never going to be a Skywalker.  The "Finn" Character was going to be the Skywalker. Kira was going to be a Kenobi descendent with colorblind casting, they where actually looking for either an Asian or African American/Afro British actress for the role. This predates JJ & Kasdan.
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Post by Maria Antonietta on Mon 30 May - 5:30

@spacebaby45678 wrote:
@BastilaBey wrote:
@spacebaby45678 wrote:@BastilaBey

GL, always meant for the protagonist of the ST to be a female, Kira, ( per Pablo) the pre JJ & Kasdan days, concept art always had "Kira" read Kenobi.

Rey/Kira was never random, from the earliest conception before GL's ideas where thrown out, and Arndt was replaced by Kasdan. GL is meticulous, his attention to detail is extraordinary. As much as I love Kasdan's writing, which he does wonderfully, it is within the framework that GL has set up.
@spacebaby45678

Maybe I didn't make it clear in my post, but I agree that the female character was always intended to be the protagonist. I just think they switched the legacy child role from hero to villain, so the villain is now the Skywalker. It was a pretty bold move and some people still aren't ok with it. It's why they're still so desperate for Rey to be a Skywalker too.
@BastilaBey

If you go back and do historical research, on the published articles, the female protagonist was never going to be a Skywalker. The "Finn" Character was going to be the Skywalker. Kira was going to be a Kenobi descendent with colorblind casting, they where actually looking for either an Asian or African American/Afro British actress for the role. This predates JJ & Kasdan.
@spacebaby45678

So basically finn was the Jedi killer?
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