Aftermath: Life Debt by Chuck Wending

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Post by SoloSideCousin on Tue 12 Jul 2016, 10:44 pm

@vaderito wrote:
@SoloSideCousin wrote:


I noticed that resemblance as well ... You know how Ransolm Casterfo seemed to be a Ben analogue ... the good Empire type that Ben could be .... what if this Rax is the creature that Snoke is trying to make Ben into?  There does not appear to be anything inherently magical about Rax.  He actually thinks how something "the Force/dark side" whatever is dragging him to the ship like a "collar and lease" ... He's somebody else's "acolyte" ... It's like a layer cake of people running people.
@SoloSideCousin

It looks like Rax has some Force Sensitivity but you are right about possibility that something puppeteers him. 

Also, if Snoke is so hot for more children of the Empire/FO, wouldn't he breed little Kylos from Kylo's genetic stick instead of putting him in that GPS'd chastity belt?
@vaderito

I am only at 123, but
Spoiler:
I think the force sensitivity might be centered on some kind of prophecy ability ... those "anchorites" ... Prophets of the Dark that @panki was talking about could foresee things. I've gotten than sense from him so far. I have not gotten a sense that he has Anakin-like powers at all yet.
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Post by SoloSideCousin on Tue 12 Jul 2016, 10:47 pm

@vaderito wrote:
@IoJovi wrote:


Right on.  If he's not a Sith, then that pretty much negates him from being Palpatine's apprentice.  It would also make him NOT Plagueis (like that needs repeating... Laughing )  
@IoJovi

I actually liked Plagueis theory.  Embarassed It ties up lose ends nicely, carries sentimental value. Plagueis created Anakin. Palp thought he killed him but Plagueis was hybernating and missed all the fun with Vader. So he wanted to take back what was his but Vader was already dead and Luke un-seduceable, so he turned to the most vulnerable Skywalker, baby Ben. That also allowed him to mold the little one like he would Anakin if Palp didn't put his LS through his skull. Works better than this unrelated Rax (who only has physical appearance that resembles Ben - pale skin, black hair).

@SoloSideCousin Evil in the ground = Mummy!Snoke. He looks like a fossil so just make him one. What if Snoke is the big bad behind Rax? After all, Rax excavated something didn't he?
@vaderito

Exactly! (He witnessed the beginning the excavation ... I have not gotten far enough to know what happened yet). But if Snoke is that much of a vampire that he can live dormant in the dirt for 1000 years, he has to be a powerful dude. They just need to get that CGI better.

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Post by MeadowofAshes on Tue 12 Jul 2016, 11:56 pm

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Post by spacebaby45678 on Wed 13 Jul 2016, 12:55 am

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Post by Darth_Awakened on Wed 13 Jul 2016, 1:19 am

Kessel89 wrote:
Mrs Ben Solo wrote:Thanks @panki Great info r.e the EU. It does seem to fit in with the snippets we've gathered so far in relation the Luke's acolytes and the Acolytes of the Beyond.

On another matter... This is the strangest thing I've heard so far about Life Debt...

http://io9.gizmodo.com/the-ewoks-had-a-very-unexpected-job-after-return-of-the-1783548821?utm_campaign=socialflow_io9_twitter&utm_source=io9_twitter&utm_medium=socialflow
@Mrs Ben Solo

Lol. I could see a cute little droid like BB-8 being used for therapy, maybe Ewoks too, I guess. I always found Ewoks to be cute from a distance, but a little bit scary up close.

The fact that Ewoks "volunteered" to serve for therapy services is kind of funny and cute. What do they do? I guess some of them, like Wicket would do alright, but there are others I could see not being well-suited to it. They can be a little aggressive.
@Kessel89

I need urgently an ewok in my office today - for therapy service.
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Post by MeadowofAshes on Wed 13 Jul 2016, 2:25 am

I've finally finished the book. So small detail but isn't there a children's book that says some article that Rey has belonged to a Rae and we were thinking that's where she chose her name? (Since we know she "calls herself Rey")

EDIT: NM. I looked it up. Reah is the rebel pilot whose helmet she wears. So I guess Rey is the Ashley of that galaxy?
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Post by CienaRee on Wed 13 Jul 2016, 2:46 am

@vaderito wrote:
@IoJovi wrote:I am definitely not being sold on Rax being Snoke.  In TFA, he says he says he's seen Empires rise and fall.  Not empire - empireS.  Emphasis on the plural. It's not outrightly stated, but I get the feeling he is ancient.  It would explain why Pablo is so adamant to state there are no Sith in TFA.  I get the feeling that Snoke is much older than the Sith.

cheers  cheers  cheers  cheers  cheers

Basically, at least Maz's contemporary. She is 1000 years old too.  And since they keep her around, she might provide some exposition on her kindergarten buddy Snoke.

BTW, who wants to bet that lil Ben named his imaginary friend Snoke? That name is exactly what a child would give.

@IoJovi

@vaderito

In the novalization he tells Kylo that: 
''I watched the Galactic Empire rise,and then fall.The gullible prattle on about the truimph of truth and justice,of individualism and free will.As if such things were solid and real instead of simple subjective judgments.The historians have it all wrong.It was neither poor strategy nor arrogance that brought down the Empire.You know too well what did.''
Ren nodded once.''Sentiment.''
''Yes.Such a simple thing.Such a foolish error of judgment.A momentary lapse in an otherwsie exemplary life.Had Lord Vader not succumbed to emtion at the crucial moment-had teh father killed the son-the Empire would have previaled.And there would be no threat of Skywalker's return today.''

Midn you I'm not compeltly sold over Rax=Snoke either because Rax seems to be under the impression that they were in need of a new stronger Empire which is the oppsoite of how Snoke viewed it:
This is how it must be. The Empire became this...ugly, inelegant machine. Crude and inefficient. We needed to be broken into pieces. We needed to get rid of those who want to see that old machine churning ineluctably forward. It's time for something better. Something new. An Empire worthy of the galaxy it will rule."


The Imperials also called him Emperor Rax so I don't know why he would call himself Supreme Leader Snoke later on.

However there are these allusions to a posisble connection between him and Snoke but maybe they're trying to throw us offplus the fact that if Rax was Snoke he would most likely be Sith since he was Palpatine's apprentice:

‘That is how she feels whenever she meets him, as if she is meeting the hologram of a dead man made to pass as real.’
‘There he stands, no longer garbed in an admiral’s uniform but rather in a floor- length robe. Red as blood

“If only it were that easy. I can’t just push one of these buttons and make him appear. He’s not a hologram.” Though really, he might as well be.’

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Post by panki on Wed 13 Jul 2016, 3:51 am

I love the book so far and I have a few thoughts on it....

Spoiler:
1. I love the Imperial hunters.... they seem to be a suicide squad type group and I especially love the friendship between Sinjir and Jas.

2. I like the relationship between Norra and Wedge so far.... I think Norra is older than Wedge since Wedge is around Luke's age....I felt this was missing in canon till now.

3. There seems to be similarities between Snoke and Gallius Rax but it isn't 100% conclusive. However, I am almost completely certain Gallius Rax is based on Lord Cronal.
- He arose from obscurity and he joined the Empire from a group of prophets.
- The mark on his palm
- His eyes being described like black holes. (one of Cronal's names was Black Hole)
- He communicates by hologram mostly.
- He was a warlord and took over a large portion of what was left of the Empire when Palpatine died.
- Cronal emphasized the importance of propaganda and creating fear- Rax does something similar.
- Cronal was a worshipper of the dark and not a sith... Rax seems to be the same.
The good news with this similarity is that the question of agency comes up again... Cronal had the ability to take over the mind of a person and make them obey against their will....now we see Yupe Tashu behaving crazy and talking to something....I haven't read the complete book yet but I wonder if Rax can get into people's heads and make them do what he wants.

4. We see a Clone Wars character mentioned in the book- Sugi the bounty hunter is the aunt of Jas...so more crossovers or descendants of existing characters can be expected. Rae Sloane is another crossover character from A New Dawn.

5. I am interested in something Rax mentioned- The Cantata of Cora Vessova....it sounds a little like the story of the founder of the Nightsisters Allya.. I wonder if she is coming into canon.

6. It is very interesting Rax wears crimson robes....Crimson is the colour of the house of Palpatine on Naboo... did he see Palps as a father figure?

7. Rae Sloane seems like an Imperial Leia to me...I like her character a lot.

8. But now a theory is forming in my mind regarding Rey's origins. I haven't read this book fully yet but if by the end of the next book Rae Sloane dies mysteriously, there is a good chance Rey is a Palpatine. Let me explain why- in the EU there was a young Admiral similar to Rae Sloane named Betl Oxtroe.... she tried to reunite the fracturing galaxy by starting negotiations between the new republic and the imperials to have a constitutional monarchy where Palpatine's grand niece Ederlathh Pallopides would be Empress but the new Republic would have the power....it was a compromise between centrist and populist thinking....however, she was assassinated by the Imperials before it could happen. I am still not too sure but if they take this route, Rey could be a Palpatine and Rae Sloane might have tried to send her to safety with that bounty hunter Mercurial Swift before she got killed (hence the male voice telling her to wait on Jakku.....Mercurial's rescue of Hux could be a foreshadowing of him rescuing someone else, something bounty hunters don't normally do). The name Rae might have stuck in the little girl's head and she called herself that. And Rax would definitely want her dead because he fancies himself Palpatine's heir and wouldn't want competition.

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Post by vaderito on Wed 13 Jul 2016, 5:32 am

@CienaRee Wow, that hologram thing is so unsubtle.
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Post by panki on Wed 13 Jul 2016, 6:33 am

Spoiler:
There is a big reveal that could impact Kylo's agency on that walkway... there are parallels to something involving Snap Wexley and his father but the situation is reversed... someone is capable of getting into people's heads and making them do things against their will....Brentin Wexley was arrested by the imperials a few years before and he reappears acting strange.... then he almost kills his son and tries to assassinate Mon Mothma.....luckily his wife stops him from the assasination attempt...his wife figure out that someone has turned him into a puppet.

Here is a particularly interesting part-

Norra twists Brentin’s arm upward so that he can’t fire another shot—and he spins to meet her. His face is a mask of horror. It’s as if he can’t believe what he just did. His mouth is open in a hopeless oh, eyes glistening with tears. He mouths, I’m sorry, then he drives a knee into her stomach—
“Brentin,” she cries.
He slams the gun down on the back of her head and she drops.

Aftermath: Life Debt by Chuck Wending - Page 11 Tumblr_o0gjwcixXT1s24m93o1_400

Aftermath: Life Debt by Chuck Wending - Page 11 Tumblr_o4hjutrJ161qaa3xao1_500




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Post by MeadowofAshes on Wed 13 Jul 2016, 7:02 am

@panki wrote:
Spoiler:
There is a big reveal that could impact Kylo's agency on that walkway... there are parallels to something involving Snap Wexley and his father but the situation is reversed... someone is capable of getting into people's heads and making them do things against their will....Brentin Wexley was arrested by the imperials a few years before and he reappears acting strange.... then he almost kills his son and tries to assassinate Mon Mothma.....luckily his wife stops him from the assasination attempt...his wife figure out that someone has turned him into a puppet.

Here is a particularly interesting part-

Norra twists Brentin’s arm upward so that he can’t fire another shot—and he spins to meet her. His face is a mask of horror. It’s as if he can’t believe what he just did. His mouth is open in a hopeless oh, eyes glistening with tears. He mouths, I’m sorry, then he drives a knee into her stomach—
“Brentin,” she cries.
He slams the gun down on the back of her head and she drops.

Aftermath: Life Debt by Chuck Wending - Page 11 Tumblr_o4hjutrJ161qaa3xao1_500



@panki 
Spoiler:
Before reading this book, I was 100% not Team Winter!Kylo because it takes away agency and IMO negates a redemption arc but this scene reads to me as a strong indicator that this is what's happened, especially with the mention of the catwalk.  

EDIT for additional info:
Spoiler:
"They've been questioning the former prisoners-- the ones turned into assassins-- and it's like they're lost, confused or stonewalling. Almost like they don't realize what they did." Explains that weird cult-like tone to Kylo's voice when he says "The Supreme Leader is wise".


Last edited by MeadowofAshes on Wed 13 Jul 2016, 7:07 am; edited 1 time in total
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Post by panki on Wed 13 Jul 2016, 7:05 am

@MeadowofAshes wrote:
@panki wrote:
Spoiler:
There is a big reveal that could impact Kylo's agency on that walkway... there are parallels to something involving Snap Wexley and his father but the situation is reversed... someone is capable of getting into people's heads and making them do things against their will....Brentin Wexley was arrested by the imperials a few years before and he reappears acting strange.... then he almost kills his son and tries to assassinate Mon Mothma.....luckily his wife stops him from the assasination attempt...his wife figure out that someone has turned him into a puppet.

Here is a particularly interesting part-

Norra twists Brentin’s arm upward so that he can’t fire another shot—and he spins to meet her. His face is a mask of horror. It’s as if he can’t believe what he just did. His mouth is open in a hopeless oh, eyes glistening with tears. He mouths, I’m sorry, then he drives a knee into her stomach—
“Brentin,” she cries.
He slams the gun down on the back of her head and she drops.

Aftermath: Life Debt by Chuck Wending - Page 11 Tumblr_o4hjutrJ161qaa3xao1_500



@panki 
Spoiler:
Before reading this book, I was 100% not Team Winter!Kylo because it takes away agency and IMO negates a redemption arc but this scene reads to me as a strong indicator that this is what's happened, especially with the mention of the catwalk.
@MeadowofAshes

Spoiler:
I have mixed feelings about this as well... but maybe they want to speed up the redemption and the Winter Soldier formula probably worked out the best for it... I'm mainly happy because it shows they definitely want to redeem Kylo and not kill him off or turn him into a super villain.... now he definitely needs to be involved in killing Snoke to avenge Han's death.

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Post by MeadowofAshes on Wed 13 Jul 2016, 7:28 am

@panki wrote:
@MeadowofAshes wrote:
@panki wrote:
Spoiler:
There is a big reveal that could impact Kylo's agency on that walkway... there are parallels to something involving Snap Wexley and his father but the situation is reversed... someone is capable of getting into people's heads and making them do things against their will....Brentin Wexley was arrested by the imperials a few years before and he reappears acting strange.... then he almost kills his son and tries to assassinate Mon Mothma.....luckily his wife stops him from the assasination attempt...his wife figure out that someone has turned him into a puppet.

Here is a particularly interesting part-

Norra twists Brentin’s arm upward so that he can’t fire another shot—and he spins to meet her. His face is a mask of horror. It’s as if he can’t believe what he just did. His mouth is open in a hopeless oh, eyes glistening with tears. He mouths, I’m sorry, then he drives a knee into her stomach—
“Brentin,” she cries.
He slams the gun down on the back of her head and she drops.

Aftermath: Life Debt by Chuck Wending - Page 11 Tumblr_o4hjutrJ161qaa3xao1_500



@panki 
Spoiler:
Before reading this book, I was 100% not Team Winter!Kylo because it takes away agency and IMO negates a redemption arc but this scene reads to me as a strong indicator that this is what's happened, especially with the mention of the catwalk.
@MeadowofAshes

Spoiler:
I have mixed feelings about this as well... but maybe they want to speed up the redemption and the Winter Soldier formula probably worked out the best for it... I'm mainly happy because it shows they definitely want to redeem Kylo and not kill him off or turn him into a super villain.... now he definitely needs to be involved in killing Snoke to avenge Han's death.
@panki 
Spoiler:
Yeah, it's not bad news at all. It actually bodes pretty well for Ben having a faster change of heart when he comes to Ahch-To. I was questioning him and the Knights traveling separately today. That seems odd to me. I was thinking, what if he came to find Luke and Rey because he has realized Snoke is wrong and needs to be stopped and the Knights were sent to take out Kylo? I could be totally off the mark here. But either way, I think you're right - it seems like the new info is something that would at least speed up his return to the light. So even if he comes on Snoke's orders, he's going to have a swift change of heart. His connection with Rey, her light side influence, is what's going to drown out Snoke's whispers. And yes, Ben definitely needs to do Snoke in!
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Post by SoloSideCousin on Wed 13 Jul 2016, 7:44 am

@MeadowofAshes wrote:
@panki wrote:
@MeadowofAshes wrote:
@panki wrote:
Spoiler:
There is a big reveal that could impact Kylo's agency on that walkway... there are parallels to something involving Snap Wexley and his father but the situation is reversed... someone is capable of getting into people's heads and making them do things against their will....Brentin Wexley was arrested by the imperials a few years before and he reappears acting strange.... then he almost kills his son and tries to assassinate Mon Mothma.....luckily his wife stops him from the assasination attempt...his wife figure out that someone has turned him into a puppet.

Here is a particularly interesting part-

Norra twists Brentin’s arm upward so that he can’t fire another shot—and he spins to meet her. His face is a mask of horror. It’s as if he can’t believe what he just did. His mouth is open in a hopeless oh, eyes glistening with tears. He mouths, I’m sorry, then he drives a knee into her stomach—
“Brentin,” she cries.
He slams the gun down on the back of her head and she drops.

Aftermath: Life Debt by Chuck Wending - Page 11 Tumblr_o4hjutrJ161qaa3xao1_500



@panki 
Spoiler:
Before reading this book, I was 100% not Team Winter!Kylo because it takes away agency and IMO negates a redemption arc but this scene reads to me as a strong indicator that this is what's happened, especially with the mention of the catwalk.
@MeadowofAshes

Spoiler:
I have mixed feelings about this as well... but maybe they want to speed up the redemption and the Winter Soldier formula probably worked out the best for it... I'm mainly happy because it shows they definitely want to redeem Kylo and not kill him off or turn him into a super villain.... now he definitely needs to be involved in killing Snoke to avenge Han's death.
@panki 
Spoiler:
Yeah, it's not bad news at all. It actually bodes pretty well for Ben having a faster change of heart when he comes to Ahch-To. I was questioning him and the Knights traveling separately today. That seems odd to me. I was thinking, what if he came to find Luke and Rey because he has realized Snoke is wrong and needs to be stopped and the Knights were sent to take out Kylo? I could be totally off the mark here. But either way, I think you're right - it seems like the new info is something that would at least speed up his return to the light. So even if he comes on Snoke's orders, he's going to have a swift change of heart. His connection with Rey, her light side influence, is what's going to drown out Snoke's whispers. And yes, Ben definitely needs to do Snoke in!
@MeadowofAshes

Spoiler:
I just read that thing like a crazy person ... I will need more time to digest it, but seriously, that book is full of sympathetic Ben stuff. Manchurian!Kylo is completely back on the table. I mean when I saw that "I'm Sorry" thing with Brentin ... holy sith. Also, notice all the language about "having to do something bad for something good to happen." Also, when I read the "wit and pluck" excerpt in context, not only does Ben turn on his mother's force powers ... notice a few paragraphs up ... she calls to Luke for help like Luke called to her in ESB, but Luke doesn't answer ... Baby Ben answers, loud and clear. Also, her dreams were psychic as anything. Han dead in the snow. Seeing herself in the position of her mother, dying on the table. Luke looking for something and failing to find and being lost. The book is unbelievably full of spoilerish stuff.
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Post by vaderito on Wed 13 Jul 2016, 7:51 am

@SoloSideCousin @MeadowofAshes @panki

Spoiler:
I'm so happy that manchirian!Kylo is back because that wa sin the movie. It isn't woobifying or taking responsibility off him or whatever. Evidence that he may be the Winter Soldier:

a) "Show me, again, the power of the darkness"

b) Kylo wants to come with Han but than darkness falls and his eyes glaze over and he stabs Han, but acts like he's just woken up after Han's fall.

c) Snoke theme plays over Manchurian!Kylo

To me, it seems that darkness is some sort of trigger.

So, no, there's no cheating here. It's in the movie. It has always been the plan.
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Post by panki on Wed 13 Jul 2016, 7:53 am

@MeadowofAshes wrote:
@panki wrote:
@MeadowofAshes wrote:
@panki wrote:
Spoiler:
There is a big reveal that could impact Kylo's agency on that walkway... there are parallels to something involving Snap Wexley and his father but the situation is reversed... someone is capable of getting into people's heads and making them do things against their will....Brentin Wexley was arrested by the imperials a few years before and he reappears acting strange.... then he almost kills his son and tries to assassinate Mon Mothma.....luckily his wife stops him from the assasination attempt...his wife figure out that someone has turned him into a puppet.

Here is a particularly interesting part-

Norra twists Brentin’s arm upward so that he can’t fire another shot—and he spins to meet her. His face is a mask of horror. It’s as if he can’t believe what he just did. His mouth is open in a hopeless oh, eyes glistening with tears. He mouths, I’m sorry, then he drives a knee into her stomach—
“Brentin,” she cries.
He slams the gun down on the back of her head and she drops.

Aftermath: Life Debt by Chuck Wending - Page 11 Tumblr_o4hjutrJ161qaa3xao1_500



@panki 
Spoiler:
Before reading this book, I was 100% not Team Winter!Kylo because it takes away agency and IMO negates a redemption arc but this scene reads to me as a strong indicator that this is what's happened, especially with the mention of the catwalk.
@MeadowofAshes

Spoiler:
I have mixed feelings about this as well... but maybe they want to speed up the redemption and the Winter Soldier formula probably worked out the best for it... I'm mainly happy because it shows they definitely want to redeem Kylo and not kill him off or turn him into a super villain.... now he definitely needs to be involved in killing Snoke to avenge Han's death.
@panki 
Spoiler:
Yeah, it's not bad news at all. It actually bodes pretty well for Ben having a faster change of heart when he comes to Ahch-To. I was questioning him and the Knights traveling separately today. That seems odd to me. I was thinking, what if he came to find Luke and Rey because he has realized Snoke is wrong and needs to be stopped and the Knights were sent to take out Kylo? I could be totally off the mark here. But either way, I think you're right - it seems like the new info is something that would at least speed up his return to the light. So even if he comes on Snoke's orders, he's going to have a swift change of heart. His connection with Rey, her light side influence, is what's going to drown out Snoke's whispers. And yes, Ben definitely needs to do Snoke in!
@MeadowofAshes

Spoiler:
I like both possibilities..... I mean Kylo could be coming to Ach-to for help and Snoke sends the KOR after him...or Snoke brainwashes him and sends him to kill Luke but he has a change of heart once he gets there.

On the topic of assassins, I now wonder about that Amaxine lady who assassinated Leia's friend.... could they be telling us that whoever is doing the brainwashing- Rax or someone else, is still around six years before TFA?

I noticed something interesting in Rax's room-

a strange red tapestry on the wall whose labyrinthine intricacy is maddening if you stare at it too long; a cylindrical tank of diaphanous water creatures flitting about, their organs glowing different colors.

This is pure speculation but I wonder if this tapestry is used to mesmerise people... or could they be going the wrath of Khan (the old version) route and one of those water creatures is put into a person's head to control the person?..... L-puke

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Post by MeadowofAshes on Wed 13 Jul 2016, 8:38 am

@vaderito @panki @solosidecousin
Spoiler:
Yeah, can't write off the darkness reference, brainwashed voice, or look of shock with the mouthed "no" anymore. Manchurian!Kylo is absolutely plausible. Okay, so this is fantastic for Luke says kill him, Rey says no rumor. Leia has seen the brainwashing before, but nobody realized what was happening to Ben. Luke thinks he's a lost cause, but Rey sees the conflict through their connection and knows there's still light in him. Also lends credence to the possibility of Snoke trying to get her to kill Kylo on SKB. If she realizes this is what's going on, no way is she not going to feel compassion for him!

I dunno about the creatures. They were weird and creepy. I'm thinking it's just skilled mental invasion though. Kylo has been taught a form of this with his ability to retrieve info. I guess this is a DS version of Jedi Mind Trick though - so instead of just implanting a simple command within a weak mind it would be a more skilled version forcing strong willed people to do things completely against their normal ethics.
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Post by panki on Wed 13 Jul 2016, 8:49 am

@MeadowofAshes wrote:@vaderito @panki @solosidecousin
Spoiler:
Yeah, can't write off the darkness reference, brainwashed voice, or look of shock with the mouthed "no" anymore. Manchurian!Kylo is absolutely plausible. Okay, so this is fantastic for Luke says kill him, Rey says no rumor. Leia has seen the brainwashing before, but nobody realized what was happening to Ben. Luke thinks he's a lost cause, but Rey sees the conflict through their connection and knows there's still light in him. Also lends credence to the possibility of Snoke trying to get her to kill Kylo on SKB. If she realizes this is what's going on, no way is she not going to feel compassion for him!

I dunno about the creatures. They were weird and creepy. I'm thinking it's just skilled mental invasion though. Kylo has been taught a form of this with his ability to retrieve info. I guess this is a DS version of Jedi Mind Trick though - so instead of just implanting a simple command within a weak mind it would be a more skilled version forcing strong willed people to do things completely against their normal ethics.
@MeadowofAshes

[spoiler] I do agree completely with what you said about Luke seeing him as hopeless and Rey realising his inner conflict through their bond and refusing to kill him. Dark side users have an advanced version of the jedi mind trick where they can dominate and control a person's mind....this could be what is being done to Kylo. Sad

I'm not set on the idea of the creatures either but it just seemed a strange thing to describe...anyway, it could be nothing but a description of items in a room.

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Post by vaderito on Wed 13 Jul 2016, 8:56 am

@panki wrote:
@MeadowofAshes wrote:@vaderito @panki @solosidecousin
Spoiler:
Yeah, can't write off the darkness reference, brainwashed voice, or look of shock with the mouthed "no" anymore. Manchurian!Kylo is absolutely plausible. Okay, so this is fantastic for Luke says kill him, Rey says no rumor. Leia has seen the brainwashing before, but nobody realized what was happening to Ben. Luke thinks he's a lost cause, but Rey sees the conflict through their connection and knows there's still light in him. Also lends credence to the possibility of Snoke trying to get her to kill Kylo on SKB. If she realizes this is what's going on, no way is she not going to feel compassion for him!

I dunno about the creatures. They were weird and creepy. I'm thinking it's just skilled mental invasion though. Kylo has been taught a form of this with his ability to retrieve info. I guess this is a DS version of Jedi Mind Trick though - so instead of just implanting a simple command within a weak mind it would be a more skilled version forcing strong willed people to do things completely against their normal ethics.
@MeadowofAshes

[spoiler] I do agree completely with what you said about Luke seeing him as hopeless and Rey realising his inner conflict through their bond and refusing to kill him. Dark side users have an advanced version of the jedi mind trick where they can dominate and control a person's mind....this could be what is being done to Kylo. Sad

I'm not set on the idea of the creatures either but it just seemed a strange thing to describe...anyway, it could be nothing but a description of items in a room.
@panki

What if

Spoiler:
Luke thinks Rey should Kill Kylo because that's the way to destroy Snoke? Han said "he is using you for your power". So what if Snoke's life depends on Kylo's power or power of anyone who has the same abilities? I mean, I know that Han's line likely doesn't mean that but Andy said that Snoke was "vulnerable". We just don't know how. So that would be switching Luke and Leia POV. She used to be "I'd burn galaxy if that's the right thing to do" while Luke is now "I'll kill my nephew if that's in greater interest" and Leia's, like, No, no!

That is interesting... it would make Luke look a little extreme in his thinking but yet not spoil his image in front of the audience because he thinks he is doing something to save the galaxy.
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Post by IoJovi on Wed 13 Jul 2016, 12:41 pm

All in all, would you guys say this book is worth buying and reading? I'm not expecting it to spoon feed me all of the answers for VIII, but I'd like to at least know if it's a great read like Bloodlines was.
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Post by panki on Wed 13 Jul 2016, 3:04 pm

@IoJovi wrote:All in all, would you guys say this book is worth buying and reading?   I'm not expecting it to spoon feed me all of the answers for VIII, but I'd like to at least know if it's a great read like Bloodlines was.  
@IoJovi

In my experience, this book is definitely better than Part 1 but I have had to read it carefully because it seems to be packed with information and instead of being able to focus on the story, I am taking notes of potential spoilers....I feel it is a good read and has a lot of spoilers but I'm not able to enjoy the story itself because at almost every turn I am getting distracted by spoilers....I hope I haven't given you a confusing answer Razz

Spoiler:
I think we get a clue who Laura Dern might be playing- it is one of the surviving Alderaneans since they now live on a frigate near where Alderaan used to be. I am undecided between Evaan Verlaine and Eglyn Valmor but Elgyn seems a better candidate.

Eglyn Valmor is Regent Administrator of the Alderaan people. Evaan Verlaine has a military background, is Leia's friend and was mentored by Leia's adopted mother.

Both physically could meet the description of Laura Dern. It also makes sense for either of them to be angry with Leia after finding out she is Vader's daughter since both are her supporters at this time and might feel betrayed later.

Evaan and leia ensured that the Alderaan people got the pieces of the Death Star as reparations, and Elgyn Valmor plans to build a giant space station out of the pieces of the Death Star. This could be the place Poe takes over in Episode 8. It will be so weird and yet so poetic if the resistance uses something built out of the Death Star to attack the FO.  Evil

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Post by IoJovi on Wed 13 Jul 2016, 3:06 pm

@panki wrote:
@IoJovi wrote:All in all, would you guys say this book is worth buying and reading? I'm not expecting it to spoon feed me all of the answers for VIII, but I'd like to at least know if it's a great read like Bloodlines was.
@IoJovi

This book is definitely better than Part 1 but I have had to read it carefully because it seems to be packed with information and instead of being able to focus on the story, I am taking notes of potential spoilers....I feel it is a good read and has a lot of spoilers but I'm not able to enjoy the story itself because at almost every turn I am getting distracted by spoilers....I hope I haven't given you a confusing answer Razz

Spoiler:
I think we get a clue who Laura Dern might be playing- it is one of the surviving Alderaneans since they now live on a frigate near where Alderaan used to be. I am undecided between Evaan Verlaine and Eglyn Valmor but Elgyn seems a better candidate.

Eglyn Valmor is Regent Administrator of the Alderaan people. Evaan Verlaine has a military background, is Leia's friend and was mentored by Leia's adopted mother.

Both physically could meet the description of Laura Dern. It also makes sense for either of them to be angry with Leia after finding out she is Vader's daughter since both are her supporters at this time and might feel betrayed later.

Evaan and leia ensured that the Alderaan people got the pieces of the Death Star as reparations, and Elgyn Valmor plans to build a giant space station out of the pieces of the Death Star. This could be the place Poe takes over in Episode 8. It will be so weird and yet so poetic if the resistance uses something built out of the Death Star to attack the FO. Evil
@panki

That's actually BETTER than expected as I wasn't expecting any hardcore spoilers like that. Sweet!!!! bounce

I know where I'm going before I get home...
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Post by Darth_Awakened on Wed 13 Jul 2016, 3:20 pm

@SoloSideCousin wrote:
@MeadowofAshes wrote:
@panki wrote:
@MeadowofAshes wrote:
@panki wrote:
Spoiler:
There is a big reveal that could impact Kylo's agency on that walkway... there are parallels to something involving Snap Wexley and his father but the situation is reversed... someone is capable of getting into people's heads and making them do things against their will....Brentin Wexley was arrested by the imperials a few years before and he reappears acting strange.... then he almost kills his son and tries to assassinate Mon Mothma.....luckily his wife stops him from the assasination attempt...his wife figure out that someone has turned him into a puppet.

Here is a particularly interesting part-

Norra twists Brentin’s arm upward so that he can’t fire another shot—and he spins to meet her. His face is a mask of horror. It’s as if he can’t believe what he just did. His mouth is open in a hopeless oh, eyes glistening with tears. He mouths, I’m sorry, then he drives a knee into her stomach—
“Brentin,” she cries.
He slams the gun down on the back of her head and she drops.

Aftermath: Life Debt by Chuck Wending - Page 11 Tumblr_o4hjutrJ161qaa3xao1_500



@panki 
Spoiler:
Before reading this book, I was 100% not Team Winter!Kylo because it takes away agency and IMO negates a redemption arc but this scene reads to me as a strong indicator that this is what's happened, especially with the mention of the catwalk.
@MeadowofAshes

Spoiler:
I have mixed feelings about this as well... but maybe they want to speed up the redemption and the Winter Soldier formula probably worked out the best for it... I'm mainly happy because it shows they definitely want to redeem Kylo and not kill him off or turn him into a super villain.... now he definitely needs to be involved in killing Snoke to avenge Han's death.
@panki 
Spoiler:
Yeah, it's not bad news at all. It actually bodes pretty well for Ben having a faster change of heart when he comes to Ahch-To. I was questioning him and the Knights traveling separately today. That seems odd to me. I was thinking, what if he came to find Luke and Rey because he has realized Snoke is wrong and needs to be stopped and the Knights were sent to take out Kylo? I could be totally off the mark here. But either way, I think you're right - it seems like the new info is something that would at least speed up his return to the light. So even if he comes on Snoke's orders, he's going to have a swift change of heart. His connection with Rey, her light side influence, is what's going to drown out Snoke's whispers. And yes, Ben definitely needs to do Snoke in!
@MeadowofAshes

Spoiler:
I just read that thing like a crazy person ...  I will need more time to digest it, but seriously, that book is full of sympathetic Ben stuff.  Manchurian!Kylo is completely back on the table.  I mean when I saw that "I'm Sorry" thing with Brentin ... holy sith.  Also, notice all the language about "having to do something bad for something good to happen."  Also, when I read the "wit and pluck" excerpt in context, not only does Ben turn on his mother's force powers ... notice a few paragraphs up ... she calls to Luke for help like Luke called to her in ESB, but Luke doesn't answer ... Baby Ben answers, loud and clear.  Also, her dreams were psychic as anything.  Han dead in the snow.  Seeing herself in the position of her mother, dying on the table.  Luke looking for something and failing to find and being lost.  The book is unbelievably full of spoilerish stuff.  
@SoloSideCousin

I am now like completely hooked by your last spoiler:

Spoiler:
Han dying in the snow? - Vision of future? SKB is the snow plant after all.
And Luke s part as well in the vision prophetic as well. She is calling he did not answer. The part of looking of something it is like completely in sync with our speculations.
But overall - of the all stuff I am reading here the Jakku part seems the most interesting and significant.
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Post by Xylo Ren on Wed 13 Jul 2016, 3:31 pm

Wow, I'd actually root for Ben more if I knew he was being mind controlled like Chekov in Wrath of Khan.

I'm sure a lot of GA would, too.

I know people here have been averse to Manch!Kylo, because of agency reasons, but I'd be open to it if it means his redemption is easier to swallow all around, and makes for a more hopeful ending for Reylo.

Sorry bout it!
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Post by panki on Wed 13 Jul 2016, 3:47 pm

@Xylo Ren wrote:Wow, I'd actually root for Ben more if I knew he was being mind controlled like Chekov in Wrath of Khan.

I'm sure a lot of GA would, too.

I know people here have been averse to Manch!Kylo, because of agency reasons, but I'd be open to it if it means his redemption is easier to swallow all around, and makes for a more hopeful ending for Reylo.

Sorry bout it!
@Xylo Ren

I agree with you on this.... after reading the general audience response, I'd rather see him redeemed as early as possible... I get really irritated with all the 'Kylo must die' remarks.....and 'he killed Han so he is irredeemable' and much worse things....so if they have to pull a Bucky Barnes to clear his name, I'm fine with it.

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