ARCHIVE: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings - 9

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Post by ZioRen on Fri 15 Jul 2016, 9:25 pm

@Helix wrote:What fun is a 'twist' if it's obvious and 'everyone can see it'? Answer: it's not. The story has been written and I doubt they would change a story they've deemed good enough to be filmed just to please the Reywalkers.
@Helix

Funny enough, the real "twist" would be Rey not being a Skywalker. Come on, the writers knew exactly what they were doing. They knew that people would immediately assume the protagonist was a Skywalker. And they're letting the fans continue thinking that until the real truth comes out and knocks those who weren't paying attention flat.

I foresee some real fun whining once VIII is out and it's solidified that Luke isn't Rey's daddy.
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Post by snufkin on Fri 15 Jul 2016, 9:34 pm

I guess it baffles me because Luke and his awesome Jedi quest was my least favorite part of the OT. But for whatever reason, some people love that character enough that they can only perceive Rey as his daughter because that means he's still the most important character in the story. Or I read one response to the
Spoiler:
Rey ends up with the FO at the end of the next movie
spoiler to mean that Luke's going to train Finn to be a Jedi. Which isn't what's planned for Finn, nor does his character have to be a Jedi to be worthy of heroism/respect. It's like they can only see those two characters as being interesting/worthwhile if they're shoehorned into being part of Luke's story or being just like Luke in the OT.
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Post by ZioRen on Fri 15 Jul 2016, 9:37 pm

@snufkin wrote:I guess it baffles me because Luke and his awesome Jedi quest was my least favorite part of the OT. But for whatever reason, some people love that character enough that they can only perceive Rey as his daughter because that means he's still the most important character in the story. Or I read one response to the
Spoiler:
Rey ends up with the FO at the end of the next movie
spoiler to mean that Luke's going to train Finn to be a Jedi. Which isn't what's planned for Finn, nor does his character have to be a Jedi to be worthy of heroism/respect. It's like they can only see those two characters as being interesting/worthwhile if they're shoehorned into being part of Luke's story or being just like Luke in the OT.
@snufkin

I find the determination for Finn to be a Jedi (because apparently Jedi are the only characters that matter) silly. People are forgetting just how popular Han Solo was. Moreso than Luke! And you never saw him swinging around in a lightsaber fight. I don't get this mindset lately that only Force sensitive characters can be the legit heroes. Finn is more than fine as he is and making him a Jedi too would make the story feel needlessly bloated. You need a hero who represents the "regular people" to counteract all the Force nonsense.
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Post by Helix on Fri 15 Jul 2016, 9:41 pm

@ZioRen wrote:
@Helix wrote:What fun is a 'twist' if it's obvious and 'everyone can see it'? Answer: it's not. The story has been written and I doubt they would change a story they've deemed good enough to be filmed just to please the Reywalkers.
@Helix

Funny enough, the real "twist" would be Rey not being a Skywalker. Come on, the writers knew exactly what they were doing. They knew that people would immediately assume the protagonist was a Skywalker. And they're letting the fans continue thinking that until the real truth comes out and knocks those who weren't paying attention flat.

I foresee some real fun whining once VIII is out and it's solidified that Luke isn't Rey's daddy.
@ZioRen

I'd love to see 'you're just imagining it' turned against Reywalkers tbh. Rey? Luke's daughter? Pffft. That would be silly.
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Post by snufkin on Fri 15 Jul 2016, 9:42 pm

@ZioRen wrote:
@snufkin

I find the determination for Finn to be a Jedi because apparently Jedi are the only characters that matter silly. People are forgetting just how popular Han Solo was. Moreso than Luke! And you never saw him swinging around the lightsaber. I don't get this mindset lately that only Force sensitive characters can be the legit heroes. Finn is more than fine as he is and making him a Jedi too would make the story feel needlessly bloated. You need a hero who represents the "regular people" to counteract all the Force nonsense.
@ZioRen

Silly is the exact word. And he's actually the furthest along in the evolution of his character because he faced his fears, almost got killed going to the defense of his friend, and will actually be a "Big Deal" in the fight against the FO going forward. The whole insistence that he needs to be a Jedi to be a hero kind of misses the point. IDK, the people who keep insisting on these points remind me of the whole Stephen Colbert joke about Truthiness.

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Post by Helix on Fri 15 Jul 2016, 9:46 pm

@snufkin wrote:I guess it baffles me because Luke and his awesome Jedi quest was my least favorite part of the OT. But for whatever reason, some people love that character enough that they can only perceive Rey as his daughter because that means he's still the most important character in the story. Or I read one response to the
Spoiler:
Rey ends up with the FO at the end of the next movie
spoiler to mean that Luke's going to train Finn to be a Jedi. Which isn't what's planned for Finn, nor does his character have to be a Jedi to be worthy of heroism/respect. It's like they can only see those two characters as being interesting/worthwhile if they're shoehorned into being part of Luke's story or being just like Luke in the OT.
@snufkin

The saga is supposed to be about the Skywalkers, but many fans turn this into 'about Luke' and don't count Kylo because he's a bad guy. Now I actually do like Luke's story, but I'm fine with him not having children and the ST having Kylo as the Skywalker. These types of fans see Luke not having a kid as failure, that despite still being alive he never 'achieved anything'. They want Rey to be the Skywalker and Kylo to die evil. You could play 'Bad Plot Bingo' with most of those theories. I read one of those fake leak reddit threads and saw someone ask bout Rey being Luke's daughter, the OP posted 'no' and the person said then they have no reason to care about her as a character. That attitude just...annoys me. It's just Luke, Luke, Luke with those people.
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Post by snufkin on Fri 15 Jul 2016, 9:50 pm

@Helix wrote:
@snufkin wrote:I guess it baffles me because Luke and his awesome Jedi quest was my least favorite part of the OT. But for whatever reason, some people love that character enough that they can only perceive Rey as his daughter because that means he's still the most important character in the story. Or I read one response to the
Spoiler:
Rey ends up with the FO at the end of the next movie
spoiler to mean that Luke's going to train Finn to be a Jedi. Which isn't what's planned for Finn, nor does his character have to be a Jedi to be worthy of heroism/respect. It's like they can only see those two characters as being interesting/worthwhile if they're shoehorned into being part of Luke's story or being just like Luke in the OT.
@snufkin

The saga is supposed to be about the Skywalkers, but many fans turn this into 'about Luke' and don't count Kylo because he's a bad guy. Now I actually do like Luke's story, but I'm fine with him not having children and the ST having Kylo as the Skywalker. These types of fans see Luke not having a kid as failure, that despite still being alive he never 'achieved anything'. They want Rey to be the Skywalker and Kylo to die evil. You could play 'Bad Plot Bingo' with most of those theories. I read one of those fake leak reddit threads and saw someone ask bout Rey being Luke's daughter, the OP posted 'no' and the person said then they have no reason to care about her as a character. That attitude just...annoys me. It's just Luke, Luke, Luke with those people.
@Helix

Yep that's it, he's seen as the only one who counts. Like I've read enough comments about how "well Leia has a different name and her kid's last name is probably Solo, so they don't count." The casual dismal of Leia as not as important is really gross and also dumb b/c part of what's great about what they're setting up is showing her as being equally important.
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Post by Mana on Fri 15 Jul 2016, 9:52 pm

Well....by their logic, Rey's children won't be Skywalkers either. They would take the name of their father, as Ben has the name of his father...
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Post by Helix on Fri 15 Jul 2016, 9:57 pm

@snufkin wrote:
@Helix wrote:
@snufkin wrote:I guess it baffles me because Luke and his awesome Jedi quest was my least favorite part of the OT. But for whatever reason, some people love that character enough that they can only perceive Rey as his daughter because that means he's still the most important character in the story. Or I read one response to the
Spoiler:
Rey ends up with the FO at the end of the next movie
spoiler to mean that Luke's going to train Finn to be a Jedi. Which isn't what's planned for Finn, nor does his character have to be a Jedi to be worthy of heroism/respect. It's like they can only see those two characters as being interesting/worthwhile if they're shoehorned into being part of Luke's story or being just like Luke in the OT.
@snufkin

The saga is supposed to be about the Skywalkers, but many fans turn this into 'about Luke' and don't count Kylo because he's a bad guy. Now I actually do like Luke's story, but I'm fine with him not having children and the ST having Kylo as the Skywalker. These types of fans see Luke not having a kid as failure, that despite still being alive he never 'achieved anything'. They want Rey to be the Skywalker and Kylo to die evil. You could play 'Bad Plot Bingo' with most of those theories. I read one of those fake leak reddit threads and saw someone ask bout Rey being Luke's daughter, the OP posted 'no' and the person said then they have no reason to care about her as a character. That attitude just...annoys me. It's just Luke, Luke, Luke with those people.
@Helix

Yep that's it, he's seen as the only one who counts. Like I've read enough comments about how "well Leia has a different name and her kid's last name is probably Solo, so they don't count." The casual dismal of Leia as not as important is really gross and also dumb b/c part of what's great about what they're setting up is showing her as being equally important.
@snufkin

I think even Pablo brought that up? I can't remember rn, but I'm pretty sure he's talked about the Leia dismissal. It's really dumb, she's just as important. Her taking her adoptive father's name does not change the fact that she's a Skywalker. They don't have to be Jedi or even good to be Skywalkers. Leia, Kylo, Shmi are all Skywalkers and all play or have played important parts.
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Post by ZioRen on Fri 15 Jul 2016, 10:01 pm

@Helix wrote:
@snufkin wrote:I guess it baffles me because Luke and his awesome Jedi quest was my least favorite part of the OT. But for whatever reason, some people love that character enough that they can only perceive Rey as his daughter because that means he's still the most important character in the story. Or I read one response to the
Spoiler:
Rey ends up with the FO at the end of the next movie
spoiler to mean that Luke's going to train Finn to be a Jedi. Which isn't what's planned for Finn, nor does his character have to be a Jedi to be worthy of heroism/respect. It's like they can only see those two characters as being interesting/worthwhile if they're shoehorned into being part of Luke's story or being just like Luke in the OT.
@snufkin

The saga is supposed to be about the Skywalkers, but many fans turn this into 'about Luke' and don't count Kylo because he's a bad guy. Now I actually do like Luke's story, but I'm fine with him not having children and the ST having Kylo as the Skywalker. These types of fans see Luke not having a kid as failure, that despite still being alive he never 'achieved anything'. They want Rey to be the Skywalker and Kylo to die evil. You could play 'Bad Plot Bingo' with most of those theories. I read one of those fake leak reddit threads and saw someone ask bout Rey being Luke's daughter, the OP posted 'no' and the person said then they have no reason to care about her as a character. That attitude just...annoys me. It's just Luke, Luke, Luke with those people.
@Helix

I'm still baffled that people who love Luke want Rey to be his daughter. Because if it's true then, from what we know, he sure ain't winning any father of the year awards.

And yeah, the Leia dismissal thing is also ridiculous. Names are just semantics. Leia, and now Kylo, have Anakin Skywalker's blood in their veins. It takes one thick skull to say they don't count while Luke does, despite sharing the same amount of Skywalker blood as Leia.


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Post by snufkin on Fri 15 Jul 2016, 10:01 pm

@Mana - ha! Well at that point those same "not a Skywalker" insisters will be so upset that she's not Luke's kid and playing house with the bad guy, maybe they won't be around to repeat that same comment.

@Helix - I think I remember somebody posting something on here to that effect. But that's one of the new points you can tell that's being made about bringing the female characters to the forefront as being equally important as part of the legacy for that family, especially Leia. Personally I read it as "I will only see these new leads (a woman and PoC) as important if they're shoehorned into fitting with the traditional (male, white) lead."
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Post by Helix on Fri 15 Jul 2016, 10:07 pm

@snufkin wrote:@Mana - ha! Well at that point those same "not a Skywalker" insisters will be so upset that she's not Luke's kid and playing house with the bad guy, maybe they won't be around to repeat that same comment.

@Helix - I think I remember somebody posting something on here to that effect. But that's one of the new points you can tell that's being made about bringing the female characters to the forefront as being equally important as part of the legacy for that family, especially Leia. Personally I read it as "I will only see these new leads (a woman and PoC) as important if they're shoehorned into fitting with the traditional (male, white) lead."
@snufkin

Pretty much. It's a sad state, to see these diverse new characters pushed aside for an old one. Even the people working on the films say that the story is not about the OT characters, this is the story of the new characters. Leia is fascinating, so I'm happy she's getting more focus. I like Luke, I've said that before, but even I grow tired of the fandom obsession with him.
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Post by Helix on Fri 15 Jul 2016, 10:09 pm

@ZioRen wrote:
@Helix wrote:
@snufkin wrote:I guess it baffles me because Luke and his awesome Jedi quest was my least favorite part of the OT. But for whatever reason, some people love that character enough that they can only perceive Rey as his daughter because that means he's still the most important character in the story. Or I read one response to the
Spoiler:
Rey ends up with the FO at the end of the next movie
spoiler to mean that Luke's going to train Finn to be a Jedi. Which isn't what's planned for Finn, nor does his character have to be a Jedi to be worthy of heroism/respect. It's like they can only see those two characters as being interesting/worthwhile if they're shoehorned into being part of Luke's story or being just like Luke in the OT.
@snufkin

The saga is supposed to be about the Skywalkers, but many fans turn this into 'about Luke' and don't count Kylo because he's a bad guy. Now I actually do like Luke's story, but I'm fine with him not having children and the ST having Kylo as the Skywalker. These types of fans see Luke not having a kid as failure, that despite still being alive he never 'achieved anything'. They want Rey to be the Skywalker and Kylo to die evil. You could play 'Bad Plot Bingo' with most of those theories. I read one of those fake leak reddit threads and saw someone ask bout Rey being Luke's daughter, the OP posted 'no' and the person said then they have no reason to care about her as a character. That attitude just...annoys me. It's just Luke, Luke, Luke with those people.
@Helix

I'm still baffled that people who love Luke want Rey to be his daughter. Because if it's true then, from what we know, he sure ain't winning any father of the year awards.

And yeah, the Leia dismissal thing is also ridiculous. Names are just semantics. Leia, and now Kylo, have Anakin Skywalker's blood in their veins. It takes one thick skull to say they don't count while Luke does, despite sharing the same amount of Skywalker blood as Leia.
@ZioRen

They seem to love the theory he left her on Jakku...with Unkar Plutt. The guy that made her work for meager portions. A+ parenting. What a hero.
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Post by FrolickingFizzgig on Fri 15 Jul 2016, 10:22 pm

I love Luke. I loved Han. But I also love Leia and Anakin and Padme. I love the whole family, and that includes the result of all their stories, together and apart: Ben. Kylo is their legacy, the one character who can bring the Anakin's blood into the future. He is the Skywalker they all want so desperately, but no, he's not perfect. And that's the WHOLE POINT. Rather than meet this awesome, can-do-no-wrong character we get to watch him become something else, something new, and that's beautiful. That's what coming-of-age storytelling is all about, bringing characters on journeys that change who they are. Kathleen Kennedy said something about how Kylo is supposed to be a metaphor for youths who are corrupted and lose their way. But even those who are as deep as they can get in the darkness can learn from their mistakes, can break free and can find their way home. Kathleen Kennedy straight-up said Kylo was meant to show the transformation of lost youth to "accomplished adult".

Antis are fighting a losing battle because they don't even get what they're fighting against. A story of salvation? Of sacrifices not being wasted? Of a kids on a quest to reach maturation? Of characters saving themselves through acceptance, compassion and love? That is Star Wars!
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Post by Guest on Fri 15 Jul 2016, 10:42 pm

Rey Skywalker just makes zero sense. It also doesn't work with the timeline.

My theory is that Rey's parents did NOT make a special trip to Jakku simply to drop her off there with a random goon. In the flashback, young Rey is already dressed in desert/scavenger clothes, and it makes no sense to me that her parents would leave her with a total stranger.

I think her parents were both Force-sensitive scavengers. It's possible that Rey was born on Jakku or brought there as a baby. My thought is that her parents had been hiding there for a while, and that THEY worked for Plutt. Then their location gets discovered and they have to run.

So she gets left with their own former employer as they promise to come back. They never do, which makes me think they were killed or captured. If this were the case, I would 100% accept and sympathize with what they did. Luke? Not so much.

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Post by snufkin on Fri 15 Jul 2016, 10:53 pm

@FrolickingFizzgig wrote:I love Luke. I loved Han. But I also love Leia and Anakin and Padme. I love the whole family, and that includes the result of all their stories, together and apart: Ben. Kylo is their legacy, the one character who can bring the Anakin's blood into the future. He is the Skywalker they all want so desperately, but no, he's not perfect. And that's the WHOLE POINT. Rather than meet this awesome, can-do-no-wrong character we get to watch him become something else, something new, and that's beautiful. That's what coming-of-age storytelling is all about, bringing characters on journeys that change who they are. Kathleen Kennedy said something about how Kylo is supposed to be a metaphor for youths who are corrupted and lose their way. But even those who are as deep as they can get in the darkness can learn from their mistakes, can break free and can find their way home. Kathleen Kennedy straight-up said Kylo was meant to show the transformation of lost youth to "accomplished adult".

Antis are fighting a losing battle because they don't even get what they're fighting against. A story of salvation? Of sacrifices not being wasted? Of a kids on a quest to reach maturation? Of characters saving themselves through acceptance, compassion and love? That is Star Wars!
@FrolickingFizzgig

I've also wondered if the insistence about Luke being the most important character is some comment about failing to recognize the change of leadership from George Lucas to Kathleen Kennedy. Luke was basically Lucas, but the ST is now her story and her vision (with some help from Lawrence Kasdan et all to finally get to tell the story they wanted to tell in RotJ).

WhatGirl wrote:Rey Skywalker just makes zero sense. It also doesn't work with the timeline.

My theory is that Rey's parents did NOT make a special trip to Jakku simply to drop her off there with a random goon. In the flashback, young Rey is already dressed in desert/scavenger clothes, and it makes no sense to me that her parents would leave her with a total stranger.

I think her parents were both Force-sensitive scavengers. It's possible that Rey was born on Jakku or brought there as a baby. My thought is that her parents had been hiding there for a while, and that THEY worked for Plutt. Then their location gets discovered and they have to run.

So she gets left with their own former employer as they promise to come back. They never do, which makes me think they were killed or captured. If this were the case, I would 100% accept and sympathize with what they did.
Luke? Not so much.
@WhatGirl

That's the conclusion I came to after my first viewing, her parents were FS and something happened where they had to leave her behind, but were killed before they could return for her. And possibly being FS with all of the different factions described, they were trying to lay low/stay under the radar.
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Post by Slade on Sat 16 Jul 2016, 12:07 am

WhatGirl wrote:Rey Skywalker just makes zero sense. It also doesn't work with the timeline.

My theory is that Rey's parents did NOT make a special trip to Jakku simply to drop her off there with a random goon. In the flashback, young Rey is already dressed in desert/scavenger clothes, and it makes no sense to me that her parents would leave her with a total stranger.

I think her parents were both Force-sensitive scavengers. It's possible that Rey was born on Jakku or brought there as a baby. My thought is that her parents had been hiding there for a while, and that THEY worked for Plutt. Then their location gets discovered and they have to run.

So she gets left with their own former employer as they promise to come back. They never do, which makes me think they were killed or captured. If this were the case, I would 100% accept and sympathize with what they did. Luke? Not so much.
@WhatGirl

This would also explain why she was left with such a toad. They could have left her behind for her own safety or/and as collateral to Plutt that they would return, if they were indebted to him.

A lot of people screaming that Rey is a Skywalker and Kylo needs to die and Luke is a failure if he is childless remind me of IRL "lifescripters," people who think you * must* get married, have kids, get a house in the 'burbs, (nothing wrong with that if u want it) or you are a failure. They slot people into predesigned roles: female= must breed, male=must not be soft, female=must be traditionally feminine, and they cannot conceptualize people not fitting into those boxes.
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Post by vaderito on Sat 16 Jul 2016, 5:02 am

I think that Fizz can explain this better but here we go - why Rey and Kylo are not cousins:

a) You can do Son/Father and Daughter/Mother conflict if characters just find out they are related. Shadow of parents is always there because everyone had a parent, came from someone. So lets say a character is an orphan but he/she knows that there were/are parents because a child came from someone. Luke knew that he had a father and mother, he just didn't know the truth about them. And since boys identify with fathers more, focus was on the father and therefore Son/Father conflict is a big metaphor for coming of age (likewise Daughter/Mother for girls). They have to defeat the parent somehow to become adults in metaphorical sense. Luke becomes a metaphorical adult when he defeats Vader by bringing Anakin back.

b) You cannot do Sibling Rivalry (includes version with cousins...see Moses/Ramses) if characters did not grow up together. They have to know that they are related and more importantly spend years together so that competition develops. That way, they become each other's shadow. They cannot be shadows if they don't know either existed. It's a different dynamics than Son/Father and Daughter/Mother. Orphan doesn't know whether there are siblings let alone cousins. So there's no shadow hovering over them. They know that they came from some parents. hence shadow. hence longing for parents, not longing for siblings/cousins. 

c) Sibling Rivalry works the best, and therefore is largely portrayed that way, when siblings are of the same sex. Sister/Sister and Brother/Brother. That includes cousins who grew up so close together that they are more brothers than just cousins (Moses/Ramses).

d) Sibling Rivalry with opposite sex characters is just a toothless version of battle of sexes. Everything is there except sexual attraction which is why battle of sexes is appealing to begin with. Therefore, this instance is super rare and, again, comes with characters who grew up together so severing of the bond creates dramatic effect (Jaina/Jacen being twins). There's no bond to be severed or challenged between characters who didn't know they existed (cousins). There's a bond between a child and parents even though child is an orphan (knows there are/were parents = bond, parents know there is/was a child = bond) but not between siblings and cousins who have no reason to believe either existed. 

So lets see:

Rey and Kylo just met, definitely didn't grow up together

Lots of sexual tension

Not related

As for Jedi!Finn, nobody puts Jedi training in the last movie of the trilogy that has to wrap up threads from previous movies. If it didn't happen by that time, it won't happen period. He'll be an asset to Luke in some other way, like many non-Jedi non-FS people were in OT (Han, Chewie, Wedge, droids, Lando, Leia before ROTJ reveal that made her automatically a FS). Likewise romance. If there's development between other characters in the second movie, they won't just drop it in the third to hook up characters who didn't even interact or barely in the second. And Rey being with Snoke implies that she won't be rescued in the first 15 minutes cause Snoke =/= Jabba, the one-off character who stalled first act and was never going to play any role beyond that. Snoke is the arch villain. Escaping Snoke and than facing him again later is redundant.
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Post by CienaRee on Sat 16 Jul 2016, 5:19 am

WhatGirl wrote:Rey Skywalker just makes zero sense. It also doesn't work with the timeline.

My theory is that Rey's parents did NOT make a special trip to Jakku simply to drop her off there with a random goon. In the flashback, young Rey is already dressed in desert/scavenger clothes, and it makes no sense to me that her parents would leave her with a total stranger.

I think her parents were both Force-sensitive scavengers. It's possible that Rey was born on Jakku or brought there as a baby. My thought is that her parents had been hiding there for a while, and that THEY worked for Plutt. Then their location gets discovered and they have to run.

So she gets left with their own former employer as they promise to come back. They never do, which makes me think they were killed or captured. If this were the case, I would 100% accept and sympathize with what they did. Luke? Not so much.
@WhatGirl

Actually,the actress playing young Rey said that those clothes Rey  was wearing were war clothes which is interesting because accoridng to Pablo the Galaxy had two decades of peace.

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Post by MindAndMagic on Sat 16 Jul 2016, 6:10 am

That's my last comment on this because frankly at this point the antis bore me to death. Some time after the release I was annoyed, now I'm just bored. I get bored very easily, but you have to admit that this has been going on for far too long. And it is just as pointless now as it was back in December when the impressions were fresh and new. The million dollar question no anti can answer: why is Kylo a Skywalker? I know not everyone is interested in the creative process, but you just have to be in total denial not to acknowledge that Kylo is not meant to be a 1-dimensional bad guy. It's REALLY not subtle at all. There was a great discussion on here about character origins and concepts based on interviews with JJ, etc. Without giving anything away, they spell it out indirectly: ''upturning conventions''. All this effort for a villain created so that the good guys have someone to defeat? Doesn't compute. There were some great points about the meticulousness of the creative decisions involved. Kylo is a risky character, one that can go wrong very easily if you have no idea where you're going. That's why I think Kylo is the character with the most focus put into him in terms of the way he acts, he is rather fixed as far as characterisation goes while the others are a bit more fluid. The fact that they decided to make him a Skywalker AND a villain is extremely telling. Just like RJ's philosophical inspirations for VIII. I've never read Jung, but will look into it and share thoughts. Just like Fizz said, Kylo being imperfect IS THE POINT. That's the story. And Rey doesn't need to be a Skywalker to be important or at the centre of things.

They could have easily made Kylo a random bad student Luke's daughter must fight and defeat, as boring as this sounds. My point is he doesn't have to be a Skywalker for the antis' version to work. Rey finds her long-lost father, fights/kills off bad student, reunites with Finn (who is seen embracing another woman on a space horse, but whatever), gets together with him (because he deserves her) and they all celebrate... Kylo's death? That sounds like SW to me (!) Honestly, I don't even know why we're still repeating the same stuff over and over again. Some people just don't get it. Ok, it's fine to miss the sun metaphor even though yesterday they emphasised the scene. It's fine to miss the symbolism, the heart shapes, the music, etc. Let's call it reaching. But what about the less subtle things like the villain staring at the heroine like this, whispering tenderly so close to her face, offering her to stay with him? Surely no one can be that ignorant.

There is not a single winning argument on the opposing side. They don't even know what they're fighting for or against because the story has not been told yet. Social justice... in a children's fairytale? Well done, brave online warriors armed with computers, too much free time and a bad temper. It's not worth paying attention to such comments because look what they consist of: lack of visual literacy, inability to notice obvious clues scattered throughout the movie, wanting to eliminate all the story potential for the sake of winning an argument, tendency to put characters in neat boxes according to fan expectations and gender, to shift the focus of the story so that it centres around your favourite character, to twist the roles of the characters so that they fit into the version you prefer, genre confusion, etc. They've got absolutely nothing going for them. The sad thing is, such fans with black and white cliche mentality are not even willing to look beyond their fixation and at least be open-minded to other possibilities.

We don't even know the story yet and they've already got everything figured out. Well, I for one can't look forward to something so predictable and unoriginal. That's not going to make me want to see the other two movies. You can't know the ending before the story has been told. That's why I abstain from making any predictions about the details and am not attached to anything except stuff set up in TFA: Kylo's redemption, his fascination with the heroine and the outcome of their relationship. Whatever the latter ends up being. Everything else is still just speculation. All the spoilers so far lead us to one and the same: Kylo and Rey, Kylo and Rey, Kylo and Rey. Light & dark, forever intertwined. The tension, the potential is there, we didn't do it, the writers did it because that's what they wanted. And this is what I want as well.


Last edited by Queen of the Knights on Sat 16 Jul 2016, 7:55 am; edited 2 times in total
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Post by vaderito on Sat 16 Jul 2016, 6:31 am

@Queen of the Knights Exactly. There is a reason why Kylo is a Skywalker - the story wouldn't work if protagonist was a Skywalker. We would know the outcome right away. But having a protagonist who isn't a Skywalker and an antagonist who is, makes one wonder what happens to divine Skywalker lineage. There's a Skywalker boy and there's a heroine and they are on the opposite sides. So some can't wrap their minds around possible romance and therefore wonder if Skywalkers will die when Kylo dies (cause that's what bad guys do, die either through self-sacrifice or by heroine's sword). You wouldn't have that excitement if there was a Skywalker hero(ine).

How the story will end is spelled out in TFA so let me recap it for spoiler junkies:

"This will begin to make things right" - map to the First Jedi Temple (where the Jedi began) will begin to make things right. The map set events in motion and brought together various characters, including 2 that will go to "where the Jedi began" (Rey and Kylo)

"You cannot deny the truth that is your family" - Kylo is currently denying anyone but Vader but his family are also Han, Leia, Luke, Padme, Anakin, Shmi. And when the character denies his family in the Act 1 what does anyone who has any idea how stories work think happens in Act 3? Star Wars 3: Still Denying the Truth About My Family? 

"If Skywalker returns, the new Jedi will rise" - If Skywalker (iffy which one, Luke or Ben or both) returns from "where Jedi began", the new Jedi will rise from "where the Jedi began". Who are the two that went to "where the Jedi began"? Rey and Kylo. Who are the new Jedi that will rise? Rey and Kylo.

"By the grace of your training, I will not be seduced [by the Light]" - says Kylo in the Act 1 of a Trilogy. Will Act 3 be Star Wars: Still Not Going to be Seduced? LOL. 

So first movie spells out how the third movie will end, what will happen in the third movie. Ignore the spoilers at your own risk, kids.

BTW, delusions are just.  Laughing They are now trying to prove that Kylo will remain the villain because some Ben Solo fanart didn't make the selection. I think it's Eric Maell's Ben Solo which is basically artistic rendition of AD's GQ cover photo with Falcon. LOL, why would such Ben Solo art make selection? Was Ben Solo dressed as Han in the movie? Did he fly falcon? is his name even Ben Solo (Pablo says he's just Ben for now)? That has nothing to do with what direction they want with the character. 

How does this reflect TFA? 

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Post by Maria Antonietta on Sat 16 Jul 2016, 6:36 am

As Mark said @ the panel:" we can't please everyone", like he was trying to say:" if you want her to be a Skywalker, well, guess what, she's not".
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Post by vaderito on Sat 16 Jul 2016, 6:39 am

@Maria Antonietta wrote:As Mark said @ the panel:" we can't please everyone", like he was trying to say:" if you want her to be a Skywalker, well, guess what, she's not".
@Maria Antonietta

RIP #StopReylo
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Post by Saracene on Sat 16 Jul 2016, 6:41 am

Cousins thing is so weak that I've seen virtually no discussion on the possible cousinly dynamic between Kylo and Rey. I've seen no suggestions that Rey might want to redeem her bad cousin, probably because people know instinctively that the idea of Rey becoming overwhelmed with familial feelings towards a cousin she never knew she had is just weaksauce. Rey being a Skywalker is mostly about her being Luke's daughter rather than her being Kylo's cousin, and the assumption that Rey's relationship with Luke is the more important one, since Luke is still the most important character in the series right? Or otherwise, people see Rey and Kylo as grandchildren of Anakin who fight for his legacy or whatever, but that view treats them less than characters in their own right and more like extensions of Anakin, with no discussion of what the characters actually mean to each other. Also, characters who fight for the legacy are usually already aware of their heritage and what they're fighting for from the get go.
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Post by Maria Antonietta on Sat 16 Jul 2016, 6:45 am

@vaderito wrote:
@Maria Antonietta wrote:As Mark said @ the panel:" we can't please everyone", like he was trying to say:" if you want her to be a Skywalker, well, guess what, she's not".
@Maria Antonietta

RIP #StopReylo
@vaderito

#stopabuse
#stopincest
#stopthetrilogy
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