"Force Backs" from Ancient Relics

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Post by Jakku on Fri 29 Jul 2016, 5:52 am

My take was that Kylo stabs Salad Bowl with his right hand, and takes the other sabre from him with his left hand. Hence he has it in his left hand later.
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Post by ZenBrainJam on Fri 29 Jul 2016, 6:08 am

@FrolickingFizzgig wrote:I personally love the idea of relics influencing visions on those chosen by the Force, and I think it would be amazing to see even more interaction between the old and new in the ST! As I said in the opening post, Rey herself is essentially a play on a treasure hunter, and there is a lovely theme to be found here with regards to fans embracing the new trilogy and letting go of those "old relics" and whatever past - or perhaps even childhood! they represent.
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The whole relic hunting thing with the dialogue between new characters and old ones using artifacts is beautiful. However I do not agree about the letting go message. In my opinion (and living in a country where you can dig in your garden and find ancient roman vases or tombs without any effort) it's not a matter of letting go the past but learn the lesson from old days, change the present and go on into the future. And I am not speaking about RL, but ST itself. The OT characters failed, the force is unbalanced, there's war again, the ST characters now must look at the past to chose the right path: kill the evil Kylo Ren would not bring peace or balance. They can't erase the dark side, they need a new perspective (yes Rey I am looking at you and Kylo Ren)
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Post by Gemini on Fri 29 Jul 2016, 6:57 am

This is how it plays out as a full scene

They are basically sharing the same vision when they touch a light saber somewhere..I dont think they are both touching a lightsaber at the same time though. Kylo has done this in the past at some point whilst hunting for relics and Rey is seeing the moment when he gets the saber unfold and she also sees the moment he gets lifted into the vision They seem to have decided to cut the moment in the day time and also not show you that Ren has a lightsaber in his hand in the final cut of the film. What we are getting is the TAIL END of the entire scene (which I think we may see in episode 8 ). I want to state that although its not in the final film, they have done something which is called cheating the shot. They have not re-shot it and shown you that he has no saber in his hand or digitally edited it out...instead they have just cut it out of the frame by using a shot which does not allow you to see his hands. Which means they can go back to this moment later and people cant say "hey it wasnt there in TFA!" because it may still be there, you just cant see it in the frame.

So the scene as a whole


1. The novel, the fight in the day time, grabbing a saber, everything turns to night and rain and clouds and the 7 KOR appear this change of day into night and rain is falling indicates a transition between past and the future event.

2. He stabs dude in the back....OOOOUUUCCHH
"Force Backs" from Ancient Relics - Page 2 Tumblr_inline_oa697lTTMZ1u4orvh_500

Grabs the saber here??

3. Lingers for a moment..just standing there holding 2 sabers...it looks like something is happening/passing through him whilst holding this, a vision is emerging and hes seeing things

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"Force Backs" from Ancient Relics - Page 2 Chi-TFA-2

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4. and then BAM he suddenly sees:
"Force Backs" from Ancient Relics - Page 2 Tumblr_inline_oa697m3gvc1u4orvh_500

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But he sees this:
"Force Backs" from Ancient Relics - Page 2 Rey%2Bmask%2Bdetail%2BStar%2BWars%2Bforce%2Bawakens

and then this:
"Force Backs" from Ancient Relics - Page 2 Tumblr_inline_oa697oOOnP1u4orvh_500


WHICH EXPLAINS THIS:

The two (on Jakku) were accompanied by a girl

What did you say motha F******!
"Force Backs" from Ancient Relics - Page 2 Tumblr_inline_oa697oSpPn1u4orvh_500
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Post by Gemini on Fri 29 Jul 2016, 8:00 am

This is from the final film..its really hard to see his hands, the two types of shot they allow here is a mid close up which cuts his arms out when thet are close to him and an establishing shot where you cant see fine details. Meh, who knows maybe its not there in the final film in his hand at all and they have removed this saber linking to a vision of Rey theme completeley and things will be explained ina different way..

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Post by spacebaby45678 on Fri 29 Jul 2016, 8:04 am

@Gemini wrote:This is from the final film..its really hard to see his hands, the two types of shot they allow here is a mid close up which cuts his arms out when thet are close to him and an establishing shot where you cant see fine details. Meh, who knows maybe its not there in the final film in his hand at all and they have removed this saber linking to a vision of Rey theme completeley and things will be explained ina different way..

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@Gemini

I can't unsee the trailer....
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Post by Gemini on Fri 29 Jul 2016, 8:10 am

LOL true, there is so much emphasis placed on Ren just standing there with a lightsaber in his hand
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Post by SanghaRen on Fri 29 Jul 2016, 9:12 am

@Gemini

I like your analysis of the scene. And I fully agree that he seems to be in his thoughts - or having a vision - in the 3rd gif. The typical BurdenedKylo stance. The same one nearly as when Han called his name. You can feel the weight of whatever he is feeling at the moment. Damn forceback. I do hope we get these crossed visions. It would be so awesome and explain a lot.

@Jakku

So Salad Bowl could be a Jedi... Or another relic hunter?
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Post by FrolickingFizzgig on Fri 29 Jul 2016, 9:21 am

@ZenBrainJam wrote:
@FrolickingFizzgig wrote:I personally love the idea of relics influencing visions on those chosen by the Force, and I think it would be amazing to see even more interaction between the old and new in the ST! As I said in the opening post, Rey herself is essentially a play on a treasure hunter, and there is a lovely theme to be found here with regards to fans embracing the new trilogy and letting go of those "old relics" and whatever past - or perhaps even childhood! they represent.
@FrolickingFizzgig

The whole relic hunting thing with the dialogue between new characters and old ones using artifacts is beautiful. However I do not agree about the letting go message. In my opinion (and living in a country where you can dig in your garden and find ancient roman vases or tombs without any effort) it's not a matter of letting go the past but learn the lesson from old days, change the present and go on into the future. And I am not speaking about RL, but ST itself. The OT characters failed, the force is unbalanced, there's war again, the ST characters now must look at the past to chose the right path: kill the evil Kylo Ren would not bring peace or balance. They can't erase the dark side, they need a new perspective (yes Rey I am looking at you and Kylo Ren)
@ZenBrainJam
I think a lot of this depends on what kind of story they intend to tell, but I don't think we disagree on anything. I was referring to fans letting go of the notion that only the "old" is worthwhile in order to embrace the future of the franchise, not the characters in the story forgetting the past lol.
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Post by Gemini on Fri 29 Jul 2016, 9:29 am

You know what else? The KOR freeze the second he sees Rey and you hear that sound
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Post by Darth Dingbat on Fri 29 Jul 2016, 9:38 am

@Gemini wrote:You know what else? The KOR freeze the second he sees Rey and you hear that sound
@Gemini

Yeah, I think it's pretty obvious that he steps out of the vision, so to speak. I do believe the vision at that moment is a two-way street. But it's hard to say whether that has anything to do with the lightsaber.
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Post by Little_Boots on Fri 29 Jul 2016, 10:11 am

The sooner Episode 8 gets here. The sooner we'll all know what the heck this vision is about.
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Post by Sacrebleu on Sun 31 Jul 2016, 11:06 am

@Gemini

This is fascinating.  So, if I understand correctly, Kylo in this scene is not "saving" Rey from Salad Bowl as I have sometimes read?  He stabs Salad Bowl because he is taking the lightsaber from him?
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Post by Sylvia Snow on Sun 31 Jul 2016, 7:40 pm

I have been wondering this for a while but is it possible that unlike Rey, Kylo was able to revisit his vision and see what he want to see and Rey is the unexpected thing in his vision because he may thought that the girl is his weakness or his undoing even. He may saw her as the calling from the Light but not knowing if she's a real person or not. That why he have to "talk" with Vader burned helmet and reacted when heard about the girl
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Post by Gemini on Fri 19 Aug 2016, 4:34 pm

@Darth Dingbat

Could I please make a request, do you have that gif where it suddenly looks like the saber appears in his hand?

I think he force pulls it from the ground after killing bowl (after the establishing shot)

That's the part they don't show in TFA, I think it's on the floor in the establishing shot and when it cuts to the mid close up it is out of the frame in his hand, just before he seems to get pulled into the vision, KOR freeze yada yada
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Post by Darth Dingbat on Sat 20 Aug 2016, 7:10 am

@Gemini: You mean these?

"Force Backs" from Ancient Relics - Page 2 Ethica10
"Force Backs" from Ancient Relics - Page 2 Ringed10
"Force Backs" from Ancient Relics - Page 2 Lights10
"Force Backs" from Ancient Relics - Page 2 Knight10

I don't think he pulls it from the ground - I think it's already in his hand, and he flicks it into a better position. But who knows...

ETA: Argh! Sorry, I don't know why the gifs aren't moving. I'll try again as soon as I get back.
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Post by Gemini on Thu 08 Sep 2016, 4:08 pm

I present to you the clear vision through relic moment
In all it's seamless glory! thanks to kvlord, it flows 100 percent perfectly.

Kylo kills clans man

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Kylo force pulls saber from the ground (possibly)

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Kylo ren stands and waits for something whilst holding saber Knights of ren gather round him to watch

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It happens! He gets a vision knights of ren

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Walks towards what he suddenly sees
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SOURCE kvlord


Last edited by Gemini on Thu 08 Sep 2016, 4:53 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Post by Darth Dingbat on Thu 08 Sep 2016, 4:37 pm

It definitely looks like it's supposed to be from exactly the same scene, but keep in mind @Gemini that gifs #2 and #3 aren't actually in the film - whoever edited this gifset just put them together.

I actually think they should be the other way round: in gifs #2 and #3 the other guys are approaching and turning towards Kylo, but in gif #1 they've already surrounded him.

We know that Pablo said the idea behind the scene changed; perhaps the changing idea was simply that Kylo was originally supposed to be surrounded by those guys, and in the final version they just stand around him, not implying what they might be about to do. And of course the second lightsaber was originally visible. Perhaps the "idea" of the scene didn't change so much as the level of detail they wanted to reveal at this point.

The last gif is weird though - does the guy on the right really move like that in the film? I never noticed that.
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Post by Gemini on Thu 08 Sep 2016, 4:47 pm

@Darth Dingbat wrote:It definitely looks like it's supposed to be from exactly the same scene, but keep in mind @Gemini that gifs #2 and #3 aren't actually in the film - whoever edited this gifset just put them together.

I actually think they should be the other way round: in gifs #2 and #3 the other guys are approaching and turning towards Kylo, but in gif #1 they've already surrounded him.

We know that Pablo said the idea behind the scene changed; perhaps the changing idea was simply that Kylo was originally supposed to be surrounded by those guys, and in the final version they just stand around him, not implying what they might be about to do. And of course the second lightsaber was originally visible. Perhaps the "idea" of the scene didn't change so much as the level of detail they wanted to reveal at this point.

The last gif is weird though - does the guy on the right really move like that in the film? I never noticed that.
@Darth Dingbat
I know they are not in the film, and i know someone else put that together lol! Like I'm not dumb lol Razz

EDIT -Sorry that first comment was just a joking thing, didn't mean it seriously. But realise that you might not be able to tell that from just text so added emoji with tongue, tongue makes it all clear lol

In TFA they have not re shot and removed the saber from his hands, you just can't see it because they cut the long close ups out. What they give you in TFA is the establishing shot and then the mid closeup which conveniently cuts his hands out of view. Cheating the shot.

We won't know until next movie. Could be cut out and never seen again or we will see the whole thing with the saber again and they will choose to reveal it there if it's a plot point.
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Post by Gemini on Thu 08 Sep 2016, 5:15 pm

Some others noticing it too, although this person has not thought it might be a vision

http://aminoapps.com/page/star-wars/8087476/what-happened-to-obi-wans-lightsaber-theory
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Post by Darth Dingbat on Fri 09 Sep 2016, 12:56 am

@Gemini wrote:
@Darth Dingbat wrote:It definitely looks like it's supposed to be from exactly the same scene, but keep in mind @Gemini that gifs #2 and #3 aren't actually in the film - whoever edited this gifset just put them together.

I actually think they should be the other way round: in gifs #2 and #3 the other guys are approaching and turning towards Kylo, but in gif #1 they've already surrounded him.

We know that Pablo said the idea behind the scene changed; perhaps the changing idea was simply that Kylo was originally supposed to be surrounded by those guys, and in the final version they just stand around him, not implying what they might be about to do. And of course the second lightsaber was originally visible. Perhaps the "idea" of the scene didn't change so much as the level of detail they wanted to reveal at this point.

The last gif is weird though - does the guy on the right really move like that in the film? I never noticed that.
@Darth Dingbat
I know they are not in the film, and i know someone else put that together lol! Like I'm not dumb lol Razz

EDIT -Sorry that first comment was just a joking thing, didn't mean it seriously. But realise that you might not be able to tell that from just text so added emoji with tongue, tongue makes it all clear lol

In TFA they have not re shot and removed the saber from his hands, you just can't see it because they cut the long close ups out. What they give you in TFA is the establishing shot and then the mid closeup which conveniently cuts his hands out of view. Cheating the shot.

We won't know until next movie. Could be cut out and never seen again or we will see the whole thing with the saber again and they will choose to reveal it there if it's a plot point.
@Gemini

No worries! I'm sorry, I shouldn't have been posting last night anyway, as I was dead tired and had trouble understanding anything, let alone expressing myself. I misunderstood what you meant by "seamless" here.

I guess my point is that when Pablo says that the scene changed, we don't know if the entire idea of the scene was changed - like Pablo seems to be implying - or if (which I personally find more likely) they just removed detail like the lightsaber and the guys approaching Kylo instead of standing around him.

Perhaps those details were too spoilery. Who knows.
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Post by Gemini on Fri 09 Sep 2016, 6:21 pm

@Darth Dingbat

No worries I was tired too!

Btw the comic showing reys vision, shows a load of dead bodies not rocks

"Force Backs" from Ancient Relics - Page 2 Cr6kSlsXEAAY-TY

Which again indicates to me that the stabbing and removed saber in hand was a past moment

I think Rey is just in the future setting but watching a past event where kylo gets a relic and then she witnessed the moment he gets a vision of her.

Also yoda and obi wan are drawn physically but in the shadows, indicating force ghosts showing her the vision through the saber.

What's more the only one of the three force ghosts not present is Anakin. Where could he be? Busy showing a vision to his grand son through a saber elsewhere?
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Post by Rimfaxe96 on Sat 10 Sep 2016, 7:11 am

This is the cover of the comic (issue #4) btw:

"Force Backs" from Ancient Relics - Page 2 Tumblr_o94yqtxV0h1v2ihz0o1_540
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Post by jakkusun on Tue 13 Sep 2016, 3:19 pm

"Force Backs" from Ancient Relics - Page 2 Image31

Regarding Obi-Wan's lightsaber. Nothing definitive said, really.
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Post by Gemini on Tue 13 Sep 2016, 3:53 pm

Until a story defines it ay? What if it's episode 8?



People read a tweet to match opinions, to one person it seems to not be definitive but to me, I certainly did not read that tweet as anything but incredibly telling. Will it appear in future stories? It's undefined until a story

So yes?

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Post by Gemini on Tue 13 Sep 2016, 4:02 pm

EDIT - thanks for that byw

So much info from one little exchange

it's not destroyed and its undefined until future stories

I'd say a lot sooner than later

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