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Post by SoloSideCousin on Wed 31 Aug 2016, 6:27 pm

@ISeeAnIsland wrote:
@Darth_Awakened wrote:While I do not think that we are going to see totally dark!Luke the new spoiler again evokes the questions concerning him.

- Why he felt responsible and just left after what happened with padawans?
- Why he didn t confront Kylo or Snoke afterwords?
- Why he didn t join his sister and the Resistance to fight FO (the evil)?

@Darth_Awakened

These are all really good questions, especially the bolded.

Why would Luke feel responsible if Ben simply Turned Evil? There had to have been something that either Luke exposed Ben to, failed to protect him from, or that Luke had some sort of hand in (directly or indirectly). Something about what happened there made Luke completely lose his faith in everything...
@ISeeAnIsland

This!  And add to that Snoke's absolute confidence that Luke won't turn up again on his own.  Remember, Snoke didn't need or want to reach Luke.  He just wanted any pathway to Luke destroyed.  Maybe Snoke is so confident of Luke remaining in hiding because Kylo told him the whole story and Luke is dealing with some guilt/shame there.  I mean if he truly screwed up with Ben, he might not be able to face Leia again without somebody dragging him back.  If there is no one to drag him, he stays.
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Post by Lily Snape on Wed 31 Aug 2016, 6:31 pm

@Darth_Awakened wrote:
@vaderito wrote:
@ISeeAnIsland wrote:
Mrs Ben Solo wrote:The bit about the lightsaber moulds that were made is interesting, particularly as Kylo Ren was holding a lightsaber hilt in his hand (besides his own) in the bit of the forceback where he's with the Knights of Ren. It's no wonder it doesn't make much sense to us when so many connecting fragments were left out of that vision in TFA.
@Mrs Ben Solo

Back a few months when there was debate about whether or not Luke's students had actually been killed and interpretations of the vision, etc, I remember someone pulling out an old article/post from a witness who had claimed to see the lightsaber hilts from the dead students. (Sorry, for the life of me, I can't remember where I read this.) This chunk about the moulds, though, would seem to fit that...in that at least those hilts were made as props, and it sounds like this might resurface in VIII.
@ISeeAnIsland

I think that was MSW spoiler too.

But anyway, it's an interesting description because it doesn't really show the act of killing, unlike poor Salad Bowl. There are bodies and 2 survivors so you can make a guess which one was responsible or suspected to be responsible. Now, big question is, how Kylo survived Luke's anger? Also, did failing to kill Luke require that he kill Han to prove himself? To me, it's more interesting what happened between them post-massacre.

@vaderito


Good points!
Interesting bit as well that other KORs were not mentioned by MSW. Somehow I have always imagined them being involved.
Or it was before Kylo actually joined KOR of FO?
Maybe the whole event was triggered by grandpa being actually Darth Vader discovery.
We know that Bloodline event took place 6 years before TFA, and that Hux & Kylo started working together about 5 years prior to TFA (according to Pablo).

Another super geeky mystery: What happened to R2 after Luke said goodbye to him (how he ended with the Resistance?)

It is really nice surprise by Jason (I was very pessimistic).
Hopefully he will drop some more explanation during the podcast on Monday as he usually does.
@Darth_Awakened

Ever since reading Bloodline, I've had this (totally woobifying) head canon that Ben has spent his life fighting this darkness and the voice in his head that tells him to succumb to it, and then his classmates attack him (and Luke?) after finding about Vader being his grandfather, and he loses it and goes Dark. Is it self defense, or is it murder? Maybe it starts out as the first and then becomes the second if he has them corned or disarmed or otherwise no longer presenting any risk to him and just keeps going in his rage. So, not a justification-- but better than "And then he turned eeeeeeeevil and killed a bunch of friends who had never lifted a finger against him and who trusted him." Although it could certainly be that too-- but that would be Anakin all over again. This is Kylo-- he's so much more ambiguous. Why not morally ambiguous too?

The odds of it being pure self-defense are vanishingly slim. But I hope it's not as simple as Anakin killing the younglings. I hope it's at least understandable-- not just pure "school shooter" premeditated evil attack on the innocent. Because the latter would be kind of what people are expecting, and therefore dull-- and would also just dig him deeper and deeper into darkness instead of making his background show that he's redeemable.
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Post by panki on Wed 31 Aug 2016, 6:31 pm

@CienaRee wrote:You knwo something occured to me.If Kylo's still keeping his crowl which Pablo said was back from his Jedi traning years than there must be some regret there even if(which I don't think it's the case)it' s as simple as him killing the padawans.I mean you don't keep something from a time you're trying to forget if you don't feel some sort of regret over what's happened.
@CienaRee

It could either be regret or maybe he still thinks of himself as a padawan.... I cannot help but see comparisons between Ben Solo and Quinlan Vos in Dark Disciple so maybe their stories are similar as well.....I'm speculating here:

1. The jedi council get this harebrained idea to assassinate Dooku and send Quinlan to do it. Maybe Luke had this idea of destroying the dark presence he sensed and decided to send Ben Solo to contact Snoke and Co.

2. LST facilitates introductions and Ben thinks he is getting to Snoke, maybe even committing borderline dark deeds to show loyalty. This is like Quinlan killing the sleeper to learn to use the dark side and planning the assasination with Asajj using her informants.

3. Dooku captures Quinlan when he fails to assassinate him. Similarly, maybe Snoke (since he has lived for so long) was wise to the plan and captures Ben.

4. Dooku then tortures Quinlan, creates a new personality for him (Admiral Enigma) and he wins wars for Dooku, killing many jedi....similarly Ben is changed to Kylo Ren and becomes a killer for the FO.

Now despite becoming Dooku's apprentice, Quinlan was still fixated on completing his mission and killing the two sith lords. Similarly, maybe Kylo wears that jedi padawan cowl because he thinks he is still on a mission to help the galaxy and maybe Han's death was the first time he realised he was in over his head (again similar to when it took Asajj's death for Quinlan to realise he had actually crossed to the dark side).

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Post by Xylo Ren on Wed 31 Aug 2016, 6:37 pm

What if the vision includes that one shot on the balcony where sforza saw them filming and the director shouted "Remember, this is where Rey's feelings start to change." This vision of Kylo, Luke, and the padawans could somehow tie into that vision or scene.

This is getting good, but I'm also preparing to be emotionally wrecked. If Kylo was somehow framed, a cover up, or made to look like he killed the padawans, I'll be devastated for him. If Snoke somehow lied and convinced him that he had to wipe out the academy, I will capsize. If Kylo really is 100% responsible then I will roar at him through the screen. Basically, there's no way this vision is going to be emotionally dry.

This story is going to destroy.
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Post by Darth_Awakened on Wed 31 Aug 2016, 6:37 pm

@Lily Snape wrote:
@Darth_Awakened wrote:
@vaderito wrote:
@ISeeAnIsland wrote:
Mrs Ben Solo wrote:The bit about the lightsaber moulds that were made is interesting, particularly as Kylo Ren was holding a lightsaber hilt in his hand (besides his own) in the bit of the forceback where he's with the Knights of Ren. It's no wonder it doesn't make much sense to us when so many connecting fragments were left out of that vision in TFA.
@Mrs Ben Solo

Back a few months when there was debate about whether or not Luke's students had actually been killed and interpretations of the vision, etc, I remember someone pulling out an old article/post from a witness who had claimed to see the lightsaber hilts from the dead students. (Sorry, for the life of me, I can't remember where I read this.) This chunk about the moulds, though, would seem to fit that...in that at least those hilts were made as props, and it sounds like this might resurface in VIII.
@ISeeAnIsland

I think that was MSW spoiler too.

But anyway, it's an interesting description because it doesn't really show the act of killing, unlike poor Salad Bowl. There are bodies and 2 survivors so you can make a guess which one was responsible or suspected to be responsible. Now, big question is, how Kylo survived Luke's anger? Also, did failing to kill Luke require that he kill Han to prove himself? To me, it's more interesting what happened between them post-massacre.

@vaderito


Good points!
Interesting bit as well that other KORs were not mentioned by MSW. Somehow I have always imagined them being involved.
Or it was before Kylo actually joined KOR of FO?
Maybe the whole event was triggered by grandpa being actually Darth Vader discovery.
We know that Bloodline event took place 6 years before TFA, and that Hux & Kylo started working together about 5 years prior to TFA (according to Pablo).

Another super geeky mystery: What happened to R2 after Luke said goodbye to him (how he ended with the Resistance?)

It is really nice surprise by Jason (I was very pessimistic).
Hopefully he will drop some more explanation during the podcast on Monday as he usually does.
@Darth_Awakened

Ever since reading Bloodline, I've had this (totally woobifying) head canon that Ben has spent his life fighting this darkness and the voice in his head that tells him to succumb to it, and then his classmates attack him (and Luke?) after finding about Vader being his grandfather, and he loses it and goes Dark. Is it self defense, or is it murder? Maybe it starts out as the first and then becomes the second if he has them corned or disarmed or otherwise no longer presenting any risk to him and just keeps going in his rage. So, not a justification-- but better than "And then he turned eeeeeeeevil and killed a bunch of friends who had never lifted a finger against him and who trusted him." Although it could certainly be that too-- but that would be Anakin all over again. This is Kylo-- he's so much more ambiguous. Why not morally ambiguous too?

The odds of it being pure self-defense are vanishingly slim. But I hope it's not as simple as Anakin killing the younglings. I hope it's at least understandable-- not just pure "school shooter" premeditated evil attack on the innocent. Because the latter would be kind of what people are expecting, and therefore dull-- and would also just dig him deeper and deeper into darkness instead of making his background show that he's redeemable.
@Lily Snape

I am like 100 % certain that it is not the case of Anakin s Imperial killing march of the Jedi Temple. Anakin was in the conflict with the whole Jedi order and his fall to dark was one way from the point it started.
There is also many differences between two characters regarding their personalities. One of them: Anakin is dead sure on everything he is doing. Kylo is not. He is full of questions and insecurity.
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Post by Lily Snape on Wed 31 Aug 2016, 6:41 pm

@Darth_Awakened wrote:
@Lily Snape wrote:
@Darth_Awakened wrote:
@vaderito wrote:
@ISeeAnIsland wrote:
Mrs Ben Solo wrote:The bit about the lightsaber moulds that were made is interesting, particularly as Kylo Ren was holding a lightsaber hilt in his hand (besides his own) in the bit of the forceback where he's with the Knights of Ren. It's no wonder it doesn't make much sense to us when so many connecting fragments were left out of that vision in TFA.
@Mrs Ben Solo

Back a few months when there was debate about whether or not Luke's students had actually been killed and interpretations of the vision, etc, I remember someone pulling out an old article/post from a witness who had claimed to see the lightsaber hilts from the dead students. (Sorry, for the life of me, I can't remember where I read this.) This chunk about the moulds, though, would seem to fit that...in that at least those hilts were made as props, and it sounds like this might resurface in VIII.
@ISeeAnIsland

I think that was MSW spoiler too.

But anyway, it's an interesting description because it doesn't really show the act of killing, unlike poor Salad Bowl. There are bodies and 2 survivors so you can make a guess which one was responsible or suspected to be responsible. Now, big question is, how Kylo survived Luke's anger? Also, did failing to kill Luke require that he kill Han to prove himself? To me, it's more interesting what happened between them post-massacre.

@vaderito


Good points!
Interesting bit as well that other KORs were not mentioned by MSW. Somehow I have always imagined them being involved.
Or it was before Kylo actually joined KOR of FO?
Maybe the whole event was triggered by grandpa being actually Darth Vader discovery.
We know that Bloodline event took place 6 years before TFA, and that Hux & Kylo started working together about 5 years prior to TFA (according to Pablo).

Another super geeky mystery: What happened to R2 after Luke said goodbye to him (how he ended with the Resistance?)

It is really nice surprise by Jason (I was very pessimistic).
Hopefully he will drop some more explanation during the podcast on Monday as he usually does.
@Darth_Awakened

Ever since reading Bloodline, I've had this (totally woobifying) head canon that Ben has spent his life fighting this darkness and the voice in his head that tells him to succumb to it, and then his classmates attack him (and Luke?) after finding about Vader being his grandfather, and he loses it and goes Dark. Is it self defense, or is it murder? Maybe it starts out as the first and then becomes the second if he has them corned or disarmed or otherwise no longer presenting any risk to him and just keeps going in his rage. So, not a justification-- but better than "And then he turned eeeeeeeevil and killed a bunch of friends who had never lifted a finger against him and who trusted him." Although it could certainly be that too-- but that would be Anakin all over again. This is Kylo-- he's so much more ambiguous. Why not morally ambiguous too?

The odds of it being pure self-defense are vanishingly slim. But I hope it's not as simple as Anakin killing the younglings. I hope it's at least understandable-- not just pure "school shooter" premeditated evil attack on the innocent. Because the latter would be kind of what people are expecting, and therefore dull-- and would also just dig him deeper and deeper into darkness instead of making his background show that he's redeemable.
@Lily Snape

I am like 100 % certain that it is not the case of Anakin s Imperial killing march of the Jedi Temple. Anakin was in the conflict with the whole Jedi order and his fall to dark was one way from the point it started.
There is also many differences between two characters regarding their personalities. One of them: Anakin is dead sure on everything he is doing. Kylo is not. He is full of questions and insecurity.
@Darth_Awakened

Agreed-- in fact, when I saw it the second time, I remember seeing the Vader's helmet scene and thinking "Space Hamlet!" Like Hamlet was a hero for the modern age, with his self-doubt and inaction, Kylo is a villain or anti-hero for it. So much more interesting than, as someone put it, a talking Darth Maul, as the fanboys seem to have wanted.
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Post by ISeeAnIsland on Wed 31 Aug 2016, 6:42 pm

@Xylo Ren wrote:What if the vision includes that one shot on the balcony where sforza saw them filming and the director shouted "Remember, this is where Rey's feelings start to change." This vision of Kylo, Luke, and the padawans could somehow tie into that vision or scene.

This is getting good, but I'm also preparing to be emotionally wrecked. If Kylo was somehow framed, a cover up, or made to look like he killed the padawans, I'll be devastated for him. If Snoke somehow lied and convinced him that he had to wipe out the academy, I will capsize. If Kylo really is 100% responsible then I will roar at him through the screen. Basically, there's no way this vision is going to be emotionally dry.

This story is going to destroy.
@Xylo Ren

Assuming that Ben killed the padawans, one of the scenarios that I've wondered about is what if Snoke ordered him to kill the Padawans to spare the life of Luke and/or Leia?

That would also fit in the a selfish/unselfish (familial) love theme...
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Post by vaderito on Wed 31 Aug 2016, 8:43 pm

@ISeeAnIsland wrote:
@Xylo Ren wrote:What if the vision includes that one shot on the balcony where sforza saw them filming and the director shouted "Remember, this is where Rey's feelings start to change." This vision of Kylo, Luke, and the padawans could somehow tie into that vision or scene.

This is getting good, but I'm also preparing to be emotionally wrecked. If Kylo was somehow framed, a cover up, or made to look like he killed the padawans, I'll be devastated for him. If Snoke somehow lied and convinced him that he had to wipe out the academy, I will capsize. If Kylo really is 100% responsible then I will roar at him through the screen. Basically, there's no way this vision is going to be emotionally dry.

This story is going to destroy.
@Xylo Ren

Assuming that Ben killed the padawans, one of the scenarios that I've wondered about is what if Snoke ordered him to kill the Padawans to spare the life of Luke and/or Leia?

That would also fit in the a selfish/unselfish (familial) love theme...
@ISeeAnIsland

I still think that whatever happened between Luke and Kylo post-massacre is the reason why Snoke a) didn't complete Kylo's training and b) nudged him to kill Han to prove himself. "We'll see" means that Snoke wasn't sure if Kylo had it in him and that could stem only from failing to kill another relative which would be Luke. Now, it isn't fair of Snoke to expect Kylo to beat Luke who is, like, much more powerful. But there must have been something that convinced him that Kylo could have done it had it not been sentimentality/compassion whatever.

Likewise, I think that "show me, AGAIN, the power of the darkness" is related to the massacre. That was when "grandfather" (whatever appeared to him) showed Kylo the darkness.
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Post by snufkin on Wed 31 Aug 2016, 9:26 pm

@vaderito wrote:
@ISeeAnIsland wrote:
@Xylo Ren wrote:What if the vision includes that one shot on the balcony where sforza saw them filming and the director shouted "Remember, this is where Rey's feelings start to change." This vision of Kylo, Luke, and the padawans could somehow tie into that vision or scene.

This is getting good, but I'm also preparing to be emotionally wrecked. If Kylo was somehow framed, a cover up, or made to look like he killed the padawans, I'll be devastated for him. If Snoke somehow lied and convinced him that he had to wipe out the academy, I will capsize. If Kylo really is 100% responsible then I will roar at him through the screen. Basically, there's no way this vision is going to be emotionally dry.

This story is going to destroy.
@Xylo Ren

Assuming that Ben killed the padawans, one of the scenarios that I've wondered about is what if Snoke ordered him to kill the Padawans to spare the life of Luke and/or Leia?

That would also fit in the a selfish/unselfish (familial) love theme...
@ISeeAnIsland

I still think that whatever happened between Luke and Kylo post-massacre is the reason why Snoke a) didn't complete Kylo's training and b) nudged him to kill Han to prove himself. "We'll see" means that Snoke wasn't sure if Kylo had it in him and that could stem only from failing to kill another relative which would be Luke. Now, it isn't fair of Snoke to expect Kylo to beat Luke who is, like, much more powerful. But there must have been something that convinced him that Kylo could have done it had it not been sentimentality/compassion whatever.

Likewise, I think that "show me, AGAIN, the power of the darkness" is related to the massacre. That was when "grandfather" (whatever appeared to him) showed Kylo the darkness.

@vaderito

Snoke's implied order regarding Han was some kind of blood oath that he had to pass in order to gain access to "completing his training." Makes you wonder what he was doing for the last 5-6 years besides being an enforcer. Did he get some training and then it was halted until he proved his unconditional loyalty?

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Post by Darth_Awakened on Thu 01 Sep 2016, 2:39 am

@vaderito wrote:
@ISeeAnIsland wrote:
@Xylo Ren wrote:What if the vision includes that one shot on the balcony where sforza saw them filming and the director shouted "Remember, this is where Rey's feelings start to change." This vision of Kylo, Luke, and the padawans could somehow tie into that vision or scene.

This is getting good, but I'm also preparing to be emotionally wrecked. If Kylo was somehow framed, a cover up, or made to look like he killed the padawans, I'll be devastated for him. If Snoke somehow lied and convinced him that he had to wipe out the academy, I will capsize. If Kylo really is 100% responsible then I will roar at him through the screen. Basically, there's no way this vision is going to be emotionally dry.

This story is going to destroy.
@Xylo Ren

Assuming that Ben killed the padawans, one of the scenarios that I've wondered about is what if Snoke ordered him to kill the Padawans to spare the life of Luke and/or Leia?

That would also fit in the a selfish/unselfish (familial) love theme...
@ISeeAnIsland

I still think that whatever happened between Luke and Kylo post-massacre is the reason why Snoke a) didn't complete Kylo's training and b) nudged him to kill Han to prove himself. "We'll see" means that Snoke wasn't sure if Kylo had it in him and that could stem only from failing to kill another relative which would be Luke. Now, it isn't fair of Snoke to expect Kylo to beat Luke who is, like, much more powerful. But there must have been something that convinced him that Kylo could have done it had it not been sentimentality/compassion whatever.

Likewise, I think that "show me, AGAIN, the power of the darkness" is related to the massacre. That was when "grandfather" (whatever appeared to him) showed Kylo the darkness.
@vaderito

There is also "Forgive me, I feel it AGAIN, a pull to the light".
A remorse after massacre? Something to do with Luke?

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Post by vaderito on Thu 01 Sep 2016, 6:10 am

@Darth_Awakened Good thinking.
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Post by Kessel on Thu 01 Sep 2016, 6:19 am

Great discussion guys. I also keep going back to how Kylo is still fighting against this pull to the light, 5-6 years after the Jedi purge/joining the dark side.  Before this MSW spoiler, I thought that it was likely the Jedi purge went down the way Han said: a boy (Kylo) betrayed Luke and destroyed it all (aka killed everyone a la Anakin), so I think it's exciting that we're getting more backstory on the purge because it means there's more to it than we've been told and I think Kylo's continued struggle with the light will play a part in that. I don't see them showing the purge scene just to prove that it went down exactly like Han said or to prove Kylo is a killer/ killed a bunch of students because we already know Kylo is a killer. I think Rian is going to have a more psychologically compelling story to tell than that.
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Post by Darth_Awakened on Thu 01 Sep 2016, 6:31 am

Kessel89 wrote:Great discussion guys. I also keep going back to how Kylo is still fighting against this pull to the light, 5-6 years after the Jedi purge/joining the dark side.  Before this MSW spoiler, I thought that it was likely the Jedi purge went down the way Han said: a boy (Kylo) betrayed Luke and destroyed it all (aka killed everyone a la Anakin), so I think it's exciting that we're getting more backstory on the purge because it means there's more to it than we've been told and I think Kylo's continued struggle with the light will play a part in that. I don't see them showing the purge scene just to prove that it went down exactly like Han said or to prove Kylo is a killer/ killed a bunch of students because we already know Kylo is a killer. I think Rian is going to have a more psychologically compelling story to tell than that.
@Kessel89

Yep. This is it. No point of showing it, if it is just a proof of something that is already well established, and what is more, whatRey(the heroine) thinks that happened. The kind of backstory should move things forward in the movie, adding something to do so.
No way it is adding of monstrosity to already established "monstah".
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Post by vaderito on Thu 01 Sep 2016, 7:42 am

@Darth_Awakened wrote:
Kessel89 wrote:Great discussion guys. I also keep going back to how Kylo is still fighting against this pull to the light, 5-6 years after the Jedi purge/joining the dark side.  Before this MSW spoiler, I thought that it was likely the Jedi purge went down the way Han said: a boy (Kylo) betrayed Luke and destroyed it all (aka killed everyone a la Anakin), so I think it's exciting that we're getting more backstory on the purge because it means there's more to it than we've been told and I think Kylo's continued struggle with the light will play a part in that. I don't see them showing the purge scene just to prove that it went down exactly like Han said or to prove Kylo is a killer/ killed a bunch of students because we already know Kylo is a killer. I think Rian is going to have a more psychologically compelling story to tell than that.
@Kessel89

Yep. This is it. No point of showing it, if it is just a proof of something that is already well established, and what is more, whatRey(the heroine) thinks that happened. The kind of backstory should move things forward in the movie, adding something to do so.
No way it is adding of monstrosity to already established "monstah".
@Darth_Awakened

Ben's story will be explored in VIII because IX is too late. IX will be the reveal that Rey is a royalty but not like Soloists want it.  Laughing Since ST is big on BatB, Belle was also revealed to be a fairy princess like Prince Beast (in old version). They won't have 2 reveals - Ben's past and Rey's parents - in 1 movies.

I hope we get scar spoiler soon. I like Gwendy scar:

ARCHIVE: Discussion: Spoilers/Rumors - 9 - Page 38 Tumblr_ocscr14Lpr1qkbiaio3_r1_500

http://gwendy85.tumblr.com/post/149754922628

It follows the scar from the end of TFA to a T and it looks interesting. Sexy mole is there so no worries.

Oh, and Rey is going to unbraid her hair while he's there. Sorry h8erz. It's done deal. That's called character development and coming of age:

ARCHIVE: Discussion: Spoilers/Rumors - 9 - Page 38 Tumblr_ocscr14Lpr1qkbiaio4_r1_500





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Post by MindAndMagic on Thu 01 Sep 2016, 7:47 am

@Xylo Ren wrote:What if the vision includes that one shot on the balcony where sforza saw them filming and the director shouted "Remember, this is where Rey's feelings start to change." This vision of Kylo, Luke, and the padawans could somehow tie into that vision or scene.

This is getting good, but I'm also preparing to be emotionally wrecked. If Kylo was somehow framed, a cover up, or made to look like he killed the padawans, I'll be devastated for him. If Snoke somehow lied and convinced him that he had to wipe out the academy, I will capsize. If Kylo really is 100% responsible then I will roar at him through the screen. Basically, there's no way this vision is going to be emotionally dry.

This story is going to destroy.
@Xylo Ren

Absolutely. That's exactly what I'm thinking as well. Interestingly, those who still see Kylo as an unredeemable villain might think it will solidify Rey's perception of him as a monster when she witnesses what happened with the students, but we know that's not the case because 1) there is no story in this; 2) there is obviously more to the circomstances of Ben's fall because why would they go back to elaborate on the sequence in the next instalment if there is nothing more to reveal?; 3) we know Rey is unwilling to kill him; 4) we have the privilege of knowing the March spoiler, which includes a boy looking at the starts and Rey's confused feelings (I think we can all agree that it more than likely related to Ben because that's the central dynamic in the A plot and this whole trilogy, even though many are unwilling to accept it.

I've always perceived VII as a spoiler for VIII. When you watch it, it gives you an idea of what will happen in VIII (and even IX). The info we're getting right now should not really be a suprise to anyone who has seen TFA. The amount of foreshadowing in this movie is expremely telling:

1. The island

The island is presented as a magical Force center from the start. Clearly crucial events will take place there, including dramatic changes in character dynamics, especially Rey and Kylo. The second Kylo saw the island in Rey's head I knew they would meet there, possibly in the next episode.

ARCHIVE: Discussion: Spoilers/Rumors - 9 - Page 38 Screen10

''You imagine an ocean. I see it. I see the island.''

ARCHIVE: Discussion: Spoilers/Rumors - 9 - Page 38 Screen10


2. Luke

What do we hear about Luke in 7?
Rey: ''Luke Skywalker? I thought he was a myth.''
Han: ''Ever since Luke disappeared people have been looking for him.''
Finn to Han: ''Why did he leave?''-''He was training a new generation of Jedi. One boy, an apprentice, turned against him, destroyed it all. Luke felt responsible. He just walked away from everything.''
''You know what happened to him?''-''A lot of rumours. Stories. People that knew him best think he went looking for the first Jedi temple.'' (close up on Rey, signalling her involement in the Force plot)

There you have it. The highly powerful Jedi master whose dissapearance and whereabouts are shrouded in mystery. Very different from the idealistic boy we all know and love. I think we'll see a Luke we've never seen before in VIII: perhaps wiser, but at the same time bitter, disillusioned and overall much darker. A person who has lost faith in the light. As the young heroine of the trilogy, I believe Rey will the one to bring hope back into the Skywalker family and restore Luke's faith. The spoiler from MSW we got earlier is very important. It makes a clear distinction between Luke and Rey's viewpoints. Luke was right about his father in RotJ, Rey has to be right about Ben now. It's also telling how all of this happens in part 2 rather than 3 as was the case with Luke and his dad. This tells me that Kylo's loalties will only get more conflicted and perhaps start shifting by the end of VIII.

3. Ben's backstory

I agree with all the great points above. There is clearly more to the story of Kylo/Ben's fall to the darkness. Why else would they be going back to the vision sequence showing what happened on that fateful (rainy) night if there's nothing more to know? It's how storytelling works. I'm really curious what happened during Luke and Ben's travels. I think that's a key part of what led to him switching sides and feelings abandoned/betrayed.

We'll find out exactly how it went down:

ARCHIVE: Discussion: Spoilers/Rumors - 9 - Page 38 Screen11

Fire?

4. Rey

I agree with others. This is not the face of a bland, one-dimensional, Mary Sue type heroine:

ARCHIVE: Discussion: Spoilers/Rumors - 9 - Page 38 Screen11

Rey has the potential to become a highly nuanced, complex character in the next instalments. We saw what she is capable of in VII. This inner conflict will undoubtedly come up again. It's something that will come to haunt her during her coming-of-age journey. Since Rey and Kylo share so many subtle similarities (they're both hot-headed, passionate and extremely powerful), I believe she'll struggle with controllomg her powers and her own dark impulses in VIII and IX. It will be an immense personal challenge not to give in to this inner darkness and avoid Ben's fate. After all, she represents the pull to the light for him. They will find understanding and belonging in each other to achieve balance together.

5. Rey & Kylo

There must be a reason for Rey's compassion/unwillingless to kill Kylo so early on in the second movie of the trilogy. It could be partly because she is weary of going down the dark path through aggression, but I think there's more to it because we have plenty of indications that her feelings towards him will change. Those vision sequences are meant to induce a change in perception, they have to advance the plot and shake up the characters' dynamics. Otherwise there is no story. This is especially crucial for the development of the heroine/anti-villain dynamic. Rey serves as an avatar for the audience, we'll see everything through her eyes and react along with her. We get a brief hint of this in TFA when she listens to Han's story of ''the boy'':

ARCHIVE: Discussion: Spoilers/Rumors - 9 - Page 38 Screen12

I definitely think the stargazer spoiler could be a part of the vision and actually really like the idea that they could themselves as children and communicate through visions, it's a great concept they could use. Whatever happends, we're in for an emotional rollercoaster!




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Post by vaderito on Thu 01 Sep 2016, 8:01 am

@Queen of the Knights That's a brilliant analysis! cheers I just want to add that one of MSW podcast series, The Force Cult, revealed in one of their older episodes that they'd heard there would be decent number of flashbacks in EPVIII. So that definitely sounds like Ben's past will be explored.

Moreover, the scene from MSW's latest spoiler was originally slated for VII but we know that Rian requested changes to Forceback. If you compare how the Forceback was supposed to go down in MSW synopsis and how it evolved in VII, you'll see that all Ben scenes have been AWOL. So my guess is that they are moved to VIII which is going to be Ben-heavy which makes perfect sense. They'll address the character after Han Slaying. delay to IX and dealing with Rey's parents wouldn't make narrative sense. The latter will be explored in IX (likely as Snoke's bargaining chip), just like Colin said. @Xylo Ren
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Post by Darth Dingbat on Thu 01 Sep 2016, 8:06 am

I was looking at The Art of The Force Awakens more closely yesterday, and spotted a couple of interesting things... one of them was this, about the early inspiration for Episode VII brainstorming:

ARCHIVE: Discussion: Spoilers/Rumors - 9 - Page 38 Img_0710

I found the mention of those Kurosawa films especially interesting - particularly Rashomon. I haven't actually seen the film myself (shame on me), but from the description, the film is about one particular event - a murder - which is told from different points of view, all of which tell a completely different story.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rashomon

Might be relevant to this new rumour. Perhaps Kylo's backstory is indeed the ultimate "from a certain point of view". (Which is something I've thought all along Razz )

ETA: Sorry, I have no idea why the pic loaded sideways. It looks normal on my laptop...
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Post by Kessel on Thu 01 Sep 2016, 8:30 am

@vaderito wrote:@Queen of the Knights That's a brilliant analysis! cheers I just want to add that one of MSW podcast series, The Force Cult, revealed in one of their older episodes that they'd heard there would be decent number of flashbacks in EPVIII. So that definitely sounds like Ben's past will be explored.

Moreover, the scene from MSW's latest spoiler was originally slated for VII but we know that Rian requested changes to Forceback. If you compare how the Forceback was supposed to go down in MSW synopsis and how it evolved in VII, you'll see that all Ben scenes have been AWOL. So my guess is that they are moved to VIII which is going to be Ben-heavy which makes perfect sense. They'll address the character after Han Slaying. delay to IX and dealing with Rey's parents wouldn't make narrative sense. The latter will be explored in IX (likely as Snoke's bargaining chip), just like Colin said. @Xylo Ren
@vaderito

Yeah, the forceback was originally supposed to include a lot more about Ben, including scenes of Ben being dropped off with Luke, the dead Padawans and Ben disappearing....

I agree especially with the bolded above. Rey (and the audience) saw Kylo commit the worst deed he possibly could in Rey's (and the audience's) eyes: kill his father, Han. Now, we know Rey (and the audience) will learn more about Kylo past. Remember how some antis used to say we don't need to learn more about Kylo's backstory because we know enough? Well, apparently the storytellers disagree and think there's more we need to know. If that's the case, there's no way Kylo's past deeds are going to trump killing Han. In fact, all signs point to a more complicated and sympathetic backstory. It makes sense that the storytellers would wait until after Han's killing to delve into Kylo's past if it's tragic/ sympathetic. That makes for riveting storytelling that is going to create drama and conflict for the characters, especially the main character Rey.
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Post by vaderito on Thu 01 Sep 2016, 8:38 am

@Darth Dingbat They talk about pirate paintings but I can't recall any in TFA. Also, LOL, they don't mean Maz Castle was Hidden Fortress, do they? Yikes if true.
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Post by Darth_Awakened on Thu 01 Sep 2016, 9:41 am

@Darth Dingbat wrote:

Might be relevant to this new rumour. Perhaps Kylo's backstory is indeed the ultimate "from a certain point of view". (Which is something I've thought all along Razz )
@Darth Dingbat

And you are definitely not the only one who thought the same way. Curiously enough Han s telling the stories to kids looked to me like a call back to Obi Van telling a story to Luke in ANH - (which is simply associated with "a certain point of view").
With one big difference: Han obviously believes in the story he is telling, while the old fox Obi is telling a story from "a certain point of view" i.e. he is lying intentionally to Luke.

ARCHIVE: Discussion: Spoilers/Rumors - 9 - Page 38 12976517_274846072851968_223918479_n.jpg?ig_cache_key=MTIzNzkyOTM4OTgyNTc4MDY3NA%3D%3D.2
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Post by jakkusun on Thu 01 Sep 2016, 10:29 am

@Darth Dingbat wrote:I was looking at The Art of The Force Awakens more closely yesterday, and spotted a couple of interesting things... one of them was this, about the early inspiration for Episode VII brainstorming:

ARCHIVE: Discussion: Spoilers/Rumors - 9 - Page 38 Img_0710

I found the mention of those Kurosawa films especially interesting - particularly Rashomon. I haven't actually seen the film myself (shame on me), but from the description, the film is about one particular event - a murder - which is told from different points of view, all of which tell a completely different story.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rashomon

Might be relevant to this new rumour. Perhaps Kylo's backstory is indeed the ultimate "from a certain point of view". (Which is something I've thought all along Razz )

ETA: Sorry, I have no idea why the pic loaded sideways. It looks normal on my laptop...
@Darth Dingbat

Oh exciting! I actually saw Rashomon in school last year! It is very exciting for me that I actually know one of the movie references! And this is very interesting. I'm going to ramble on about it now:

To save space:
I know we all hate that the interrogation scene is compared to "the r word" (idk can we say that on this forum I can't remember lol), but this story actually is about a "insert r-word" as well as a murder. I think there might be something to that? Not that Kylo "r worded" Rey, but that there are some possible parallels here. I know we all hate it, but to ignore the comparison completely would ruin my analysis so here this goes.

The story centers on three main characters: the bandit, the samauri, and the samauri's wife. All the events happen in the woods. There is also a bystander, the woodcutter, who tells the most true story, but he isn't involved in the happenings at all.

Since this was an inspiration for TFA, it's making me compare scenes like this:

ARCHIVE: Discussion: Spoilers/Rumors - 9 - Page 38 Rashomon-025
(Bandit on the left, samauri on right)

To scenes like this:

ARCHIVE: Discussion: Spoilers/Rumors - 9 - Page 38 Star-Wars-Le-R%C3%A9veil-de-la-Force-e1446830801626
(bandit in foreground, samauri tied up in the back, wife on the right)

And scenes like this:

ARCHIVE: Discussion: Spoilers/Rumors - 9 - Page 38 Screen-shot-2013-10-16-at-23-43-051

To scenes like this:

ARCHIVE: Discussion: Spoilers/Rumors - 9 - Page 38 YvVRon8

Like, the snow fight and Rashomon are both about three people in the woods. And in Rashomon, in the "most true" version of the story, there was an actual battle between the bandit and samauri.

ARCHIVE: Discussion: Spoilers/Rumors - 9 - Page 38 Rashomon2

Honestly, idk how a story about a woman getting "insert past tense of r word" would be an inspiration for a story that "perfectly illustrates Kira's journey of self-discovery, from fearful Force-sensitive to master."

Though, the wife of the samauri does show some sense of strength after the events. In the woodcutter's version of the story, she ends up yelling at both the bandit and the samauri, calling them both cowards, goading them to actually fight each other. She went from a demure, reserved, and "respectable" wife, to someone with a more anger and fire. However, she breaks down as she tells her own story and tells a story that shows herself having the proper amount of shame for what happened--because this is an old movie and there is all sorts of sexist stuff in it. So...she kind of shows some strength? Gah, who am I kidding, all of the characters in this movie end up looking like dishonorable fools by the end of it.

It looks, to me, that they made it a story that gave Rey power by subverting a lot of stuff. Rey actually fights the "bad guy" and wins, even though she was essentially his victim in the woods on Takodana and during the interrogation. But Rey doesn't end up scared and disgraced. She comes out on top. Finn, idk if he is totally the samauri, though he is a soldier and a third party in the woods on Starkiller. He also was essentially the "casualty" of the events in the woods on Starkiller, since he was the one in a coma by the end of it. But the samauri was a total jerk to his wife, and Finn is not a jerk to Rey at all and they aren't married or anything.

Anyway, here are some shots that are reminiscent of the interrogation:

ARCHIVE: Discussion: Spoilers/Rumors - 9 - Page 38 Pic1

ARCHIVE: Discussion: Spoilers/Rumors - 9 - Page 38 Tumblr_static_91mvy0s5oxcss840gs000o880_640_v2

ARCHIVE: Discussion: Spoilers/Rumors - 9 - Page 38 Maxresdefault

ARCHIVE: Discussion: Spoilers/Rumors - 9 - Page 38 Reyimp10

But, of course, the power balance ends up quite differently in TFA, and they are more on equal levels. And it's not a "r word" in TFA, though I think we do all acknowledge that Kylo invaded Rey's personal space and mental privacy, I believe, so there is some truth to the comparison? Though I know this is a touchy subject that we have refuted and discussed at length already, so I'll just leave it at this.

Another subversion might be that Kylo essentially became Rey's "victim" by the end of the snow fight, slightly. I'm comparing Kylo to the bandit, but the bandit is a wild thing who wears little clothing, which is the opposite of Kylo, who wears many layers. In this way, Kylo is a lot more like the wife, who has a hat and lots of layers of clothing. We've talked about how Rey tears his clothes and how he has lost his mask, cowl, etc. by the end. It is kind of like how the wife of the samauri went from this:

ARCHIVE: Discussion: Spoilers/Rumors - 9 - Page 38 Rashomon-kyo

To this:

ARCHIVE: Discussion: Spoilers/Rumors - 9 - Page 38 Machiko_Kyo_in_Rashomon

Obviously, I know none of the parallels are exact. It is just interesting. And there are surely more parallels in there that could be found. And they could all be totally meaningless. etc. etc. disclaimer yadda yadda

Also, the movie uses light in symbolic ways a lot, just like TFA did.

ARCHIVE: Discussion: Spoilers/Rumors - 9 - Page 38 Rashomon2

When, in at least one version of the story, the wife of the samauri stops fighting the bandit, and then he...has his way with her...I'm pretty sure the sun goes behind the trees, darkening the scene...or, at least, I remember that it focuses on the sun during the "insert r word" I think it was also a big deal because Kurosawa was the first to actually shoot directly at the sun? I can't really remember 100% but the use of light and the sun was important. So...TFA connection there, since the sun was important in Kylo's scene with Han.

This film also features rain, of course, cause isn't that the Kurosawa thing? Something must always be moving? And it is symbolic and dramatic and all that, too:



I do think it is funny that in Aftermath: Life Debt we get Han and Leia saying these things about Ben:

“Don’t you dare say he’s going to be a bandit . He’ll be an angel.”
“Nothing wrong with bandits.”
“Nothing wrong with angels.”

And this movie has a bandit. Though, Kylo turned out much more like a dark samauri, though idk how to compare him to the samauri in this movie at all. He is much more like the bandit, I think. Just a funny coincidence.

Anyway...I like how you connected it to the new rumor. The stories in Rashomon get recounted by the woodcutter to some villagers while they all sit in the rain. Since we assume there are some rain scenes in VIII, there might also be some storytelling? idk Though this little excerpt does say that the Rashomon scenes inspired TFA, not VIII. Though it doesn't mean that it didn't inspire VIII in any way. Maybe it was inspiration for the force vision that got carried over into episode VIII, like you are saying. That makes sense. Smile

Also, maybe the new "threesome in the woods" will be Luke, Rey, and Kylo. Since there always seem to be three.

Also, someone should talk more about The Hidden Fortress. I'm curious about that one. Apparently it was also inspiration for the OT?
I see there appears to be a tough looking girl who carries around a stick.
ARCHIVE: Discussion: Spoilers/Rumors - 9 - Page 38 Pic141
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Post by motherofpearl1 on Thu 01 Sep 2016, 10:56 am

Kessel89 wrote:
@vaderito wrote:@Queen of the Knights That's a brilliant analysis! cheers I just want to add that one of MSW podcast series, The Force Cult, revealed in one of their older episodes that they'd heard there would be decent number of flashbacks in EPVIII. So that definitely sounds like Ben's past will be explored.

Moreover, the scene from MSW's latest spoiler was originally slated for VII but we know that Rian requested changes to Forceback. If you compare how the Forceback was supposed to go down in MSW synopsis and how it evolved in VII, you'll see that all Ben scenes have been AWOL. So my guess is that they are moved to VIII which is going to be Ben-heavy which makes perfect sense. They'll address the character after Han Slaying. delay to IX and dealing with Rey's parents wouldn't make narrative sense. The latter will be explored in IX (likely as Snoke's bargaining chip), just like Colin said. @Xylo Ren
@vaderito

Yeah, the forceback was originally supposed to include a lot more about Ben, including scenes of Ben being dropped off with Luke, the dead Padawans and Ben disappearing....

I agree especially with the bolded above. Rey (and the audience) saw Kylo commit the worst deed he possibly could in Rey's (and the audience's) eyes: kill his father, Han. Now, we know Rey (and the audience) will learn more about Kylo past. Remember how some antis used to say we don't need to learn more about Kylo's backstory because we know enough? Well, apparently the storytellers disagree and think there's more we need to know. If that's the case, there's no way Kylo's past deeds are going to trump killing Han. In fact, all signs point to a more complicated and sympathetic backstory. It makes sense that the storytellers would wait until after Han's killing to delve into Kylo's past if it's tragic/ sympathetic. That makes for riveting storytelling that is going to create drama and conflict for the characters, especially the main character Rey.
@Kessel89

This is what I feel - killing his own father was the worst thing Kylo did, just as killing the padawans was Anakin's worst deed. And the 'bodies' in the vision are NOT those of children - late adolescent means 18 - 19, which are adults. And those discarded lightsabres means they were armed.

Kylo did not 'cut down helpless children'. He fought them. In all likelihood it was a battle of equals.

Here's a thought - what if Luke killed them?
Just kidding. Twisted Evil
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Post by ISeeAnIsland on Thu 01 Sep 2016, 11:05 am

Over on another forum, there were some posters talking about how an earlier version of what was shown re: the temple massacre had Luke either leaving and then returning to find the dead bodies (implying that Luke wasn't actually there when the massacre happened). (This sounds vaguely familiar--I'm wondering if it's from the old version of the shooting script).

In this latest MSW spoiler, it mentions that all of the major players are there (Rey, Kylo, Luke, and R2, with Rey viewing things as a passive adult).

Does anyone recall seeing this "Luke wasn't there" version of this spoiler/scene? If Luke really wasn't there, then that would imply that even Luke doesn't know how things actually happened.
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Post by Darth_Awakened on Thu 01 Sep 2016, 11:11 am

I can not stop thinking about Bloodline especially two things:

Spoiler:
After the Vader reveal Leia is attending a party. To provoke other guests (who naturally started to distant themselves from her after the reveal of a "terrible truth" . To provoke them Leia is wearing a black dress with the cape - with the single message to the hypocrite "entourage" You want Vader - you got one!

Spoiler 2:
Another one: When Ransolm was carried away by the guards Leia is suddenly consumed with the anger and the wish to kill those guards - she recognized the urge - and associated it with possible Vader s motives to turn dark.

I wonder if something similar happened to Ben - especially if other padawans were not so happy with his and most importantly his uncle s blood relation to Darth Vader?
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Post by Kessel on Thu 01 Sep 2016, 11:12 am

@ISeeAnIsland wrote:Over on another forum, there were some posters talking about how an earlier version of what was shown re: the temple massacre had Luke either leaving and then returning to find the dead bodies (implying that Luke wasn't actually there when the massacre happened). (This sounds vaguely familiar--I'm wondering if it's from the old version of the shooting script).

In this latest MSW spoiler, it mentions that all of the major players are there (Rey, Kylo, Luke, and R2, with Rey viewing things as a passive adult).

Does anyone recall seeing this "Luke wasn't there" version of this spoiler/scene? If Luke really wasn't there, then that would imply that even Luke doesn't know how things actually happened.
@ISeeAnIsland

Wasn't that from those old call sheets that also had Maz stealing the saber from Kylo and the KoR? I took a quick look, but can't find it yet...

Something I wonder about in the MSW spolier, just because Luke, Rey as observer, R2 and Kylo are in the vision, does that mean they're all in the exact same scenes?  Does the spolier say that?


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