ARCHIVE: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings - 10

Page 38 of 40 Previous  1 ... 20 ... 37, 38, 39, 40  Next

Go down

ARCHIVE: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings - 10 - Page 38 Empty Re: ARCHIVE: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings - 10

Post by Guest on Tue 27 Sep - 14:26

@snufkin wrote:So there's a Dark Luke theme going on with him, including the father who sacrifices his life to ultimately save him from the DS. The line about the Awakening which parallels the Disturbance is most definitely about Rey (and whatever caused Finn to break with his conditioning to refuse to participate in the killings). But the rest of it is about the larger theme of his parentage being Han and that legacy. He's tried to repudiate it and drive it from himself, but you suspect that's going to end up being part  of what saves him in the end.
@snufkin

Reading this, it struck me that the ST seems to be, to some extent, the OT/PT in reverse.

In ROTJ, Vader sacrifices his life to save his son from the dark side. In TFA, Han sacrifices his life to save his son from the dark side.

Ben is not going to continue on this path for long. We're watching the unmaking of a villain this time. Not one rising to power.

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

ARCHIVE: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings - 10 - Page 38 Empty Re: ARCHIVE: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings - 10

Post by snufkin on Tue 27 Sep - 14:44

@Xylo Ren wrote:

@snufkin

Exactly, and if he saw right then and there that she had seen the map, why didn't he just sap it from her then on Takodana? Like, if he's all powerful with the force, he could've just stolen it from her and left her behind stranded on Jakku. After all she's "just a scavenger", right? :P

@Xylo Ren

Like @ISeeAnIsland put it, his thought process probably wasn't deeper than "Shiny! Pretty!" And some weird misplaced sense of chivalry. Would also guess it's another example of the whole "Pull to the Light" impulse he's fighting. Because otherwise he would've just taken the map and killed her same way he offed LST. So question is indeed, why did he take her with him and did he even have an idea of what he was going to do with her besides try and convince her to let him see what she saw (which he does at least see the image of Ache-to)?

WhatGirl wrote:
@snufkin

Reading this, it struck me that the ST seems to be, to some extent, the OT in reverse.

In ROTJ, Vader sacrifices his life to save his son from the dark side. In TFA, Han sacrifices his life to save his son from the dark side.

Ben is not going to continue on this path for long. We're watching the unmaking of a villain this time. Not one rising to power.

@WhatGirl

Yeah that was a big realization I had re-watching the previous two movies Kasdan wrote, with the parallels. And you're right about the unmasking, because there are two in RotJ, nothing to do with being enemies. Everybody who complains about how he should've only taken the mask off for Han kind of misses the point as to why it's first Rey and only her and Han who get to see his face






Bonus from the re-watch, Leia really f***ing hates Jabba from the get-go, even in her bounty hunter alter-ego she's there to exact some justice for what's been taken from her (gee, wonder which parent he gets that quality from?).

snufkin
snufkin
Force Ghost
Force Ghost

Messages : 8334
Likes : 38672
Date d'inscription : 2016-04-16
Localisation : it's in the chorus of Pavement's "Unfair"

Back to top Go down

ARCHIVE: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings - 10 - Page 38 Empty Re: ARCHIVE: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings - 10

Post by Kessel on Tue 27 Sep - 15:48

WhatGirl wrote:
@snufkin wrote:So there's a Dark Luke theme going on with him, including the father who sacrifices his life to ultimately save him from the DS. The line about the Awakening which parallels the Disturbance is most definitely about Rey (and whatever caused Finn to break with his conditioning to refuse to participate in the killings). But the rest of it is about the larger theme of his parentage being Han and that legacy. He's tried to repudiate it and drive it from himself, but you suspect that's going to end up being part  of what saves him in the end.
@snufkin

Reading this, it struck me that the ST seems to be, to some extent, the OT/PT in reverse.

In ROTJ, Vader sacrifices his life to save his son from the dark side. In TFA, Han sacrifices his life to save his son from the dark side.

Ben is not going to continue on this path for long. We're watching the unmaking of a villain this time. Not one rising to power.
@WhatGirl

Interesting. That theory makes some sense. The ST borrowed a lot from all three episodes of the OT as it is.

Maybe it's possible the ST ends in a rather peaceful, backwater place like Tatooine? One redemption possibility is Kylo going into exile. If he does exile himself, could one of the places he goes end up being Tatooine where Anakin (and Luke) began their trilogies?

Maybe the last scene of Episode IX could be Kylo and Rey staring out at at the Tatooine sky with the two suns, a la binary sunset...

_________________
"The relationship between Kylo and Rey is awesome."
Kessel
Kessel
Moderator

Messages : 1941
Likes : 13608
Date d'inscription : 2016-03-26

Back to top Go down

ARCHIVE: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings - 10 - Page 38 Empty Re: ARCHIVE: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings - 10

Post by snufkin on Tue 27 Sep - 15:52

Another interesting RotJ related detail, from Roger Ebert's review of the Director's Cut, written in 1997

At the end, what are we left with? Marvelous sights: The two Death Stars, the lumbering war machines on the snow planet, space warfare, the desert monster, buckaneering action. Marvelous sounds: the voices of Darth Vader, Jabba and the chirpy little R2-D2. And an idea--the Force--that in encompassing everything may, perhaps, encompass nothing, and conceal another level above, or beneath. I'm guessing that will be the subject of the next trilogy.
snufkin
snufkin
Force Ghost
Force Ghost

Messages : 8334
Likes : 38672
Date d'inscription : 2016-04-16
Localisation : it's in the chorus of Pavement's "Unfair"

Back to top Go down

ARCHIVE: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings - 10 - Page 38 Empty Re: ARCHIVE: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings - 10

Post by reylo1992 on Tue 27 Sep - 16:02

@snufkin wrote:
@Xylo Ren wrote:

@snufkin

Exactly, and if he saw right then and there that she had seen the map, why didn't he just sap it from her then on Takodana? Like, if he's all powerful with the force, he could've just stolen it from her and left her behind stranded on Jakku. After all she's "just a scavenger", right? Razz

@Xylo Ren

Like @ISeeAnIsland put it, his thought process probably wasn't deeper than "Shiny! Pretty!" And some weird misplaced sense of chivalry. Would also guess it's another example of the whole "Pull to the Light" impulse he's fighting. Because otherwise he would've just taken the map and killed her same way he offed LST. So question is indeed, why did he take her with him and did he even have an idea of what he was going to do with her besides try and convince her to let him see what she saw (which he does at least see the image of Ache-to)?

WhatGirl wrote:
@snufkin

Reading this, it struck me that the ST seems to be, to some extent, the OT in reverse.

In ROTJ, Vader sacrifices his life to save his son from the dark side. In TFA, Han sacrifices his life to save his son from the dark side.

Ben is not going to continue on this path for long. We're watching the unmaking of a villain this time. Not one rising to power.

@WhatGirl

Yeah that was a big realization I had re-watching the previous two movies Kasdan wrote, with the parallels. And you're right about the unmasking, because there are two in RotJ, nothing to do with being enemies. Everybody who complains about how he should've only taken the mask off for Han kind of misses the point as to why it's first Rey and only her and Han who get to see his face






Bonus from the re-watch, Leia really f***ing hates Jabba from the get-go, even in her bounty hunter alter-ego she's there to exact some justice for what's been taken from her (gee, wonder which parent he gets that quality from?).

@snufkin

I agree with you about the idea that the unmasking has nothing to do with being ennemies, just for this reason Wink:
ARCHIVE: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings - 10 - Page 38 Screen12
reylo1992
reylo1992
Force Ghost
Force Ghost

Messages : 1501
Likes : 6106
Date d'inscription : 2016-07-22

Back to top Go down

ARCHIVE: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings - 10 - Page 38 Empty Re: ARCHIVE: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings - 10

Post by SoloSideCousin on Tue 27 Sep - 16:43

@Xylo Ren wrote:
@snufkin wrote:Joking aside, that's one of the questions you hope gets answered, why he grabbed her and dragged her back to SKB with him? Because there has to besides just a quickie way of getting the map w/out having to engage his mom (seriously!) in battle or taking his dad prisoner given Snoke's orders. My initial thought was that he got Hell bent to chase her down because he figured she had been part of LST's village and managed to escape along with BB-8 when everybody else was killed. He had to have freaked partially over the news because if went through Poe's memory, there's nothing in there about some girl being involved. So some of it was who the Eff is this girl and who is she working with? Especially if he knows enough already to have figured out that she's the one who hot-wired and flew the MF for the escape. So that has to be part of it, simple curiosity. Which is why he starts leisurely going through her memories.  

It does seem in character that he doesn't think anything that far out in advance. He's all impulse and the big impulse once he sees her, is her. If she hadn't tricked 007,things would've gotten really ugly quick. Because either "briiiing her toooo meeee" would've resulted in her being killed instead of Han as the Blood Oath test of loyalty for completing training. Or he was already starting to think that maybe he should grab her and take off to follow the map (essentially defecting).

Another thing that occurred to me is the whole use of the word Guest, which traditionally means you're accepting somebody as your responsibility and putting them under your protection. So in his screwed up mind, he definitely sees himself as being chivalrous, likely protecting her from those lowlifes in the Resistance. May turn out that it's actually his company and boss who are the people he'll protect her from.
@snufkin

Exactly, and if he saw right then and there that she had seen the map, why didn't he just sap it from her then on Takodana? Like, if he's all powerful with the force, he could've just stolen it from her and left her behind stranded on Jakku. After all she's "just a scavenger", right? Razz
@Xylo Ren

Exactly! I actually just watched the interrogation scene very closely recently, and right before he says that he has been trying his damnedest not to look at her.  For example, right before he raises his head at one point (talking about the imperial archives of course ) and looks over to the side in this awkward way.  The whole moment came across to me as AD playing Kylo Ren trying like he** to shove down a pretty immediate and intense attraction to her and as such, the "You, a scavenger" line, delivered with intense, slightly teary eyes seemed actually more for his benefit than hers, like he was trying to convince himself yet another way, by saying she's "just a scavenger", that he wanted no part of this attraction that had suddenly hit him like a freight train. But of course, even that doesn't work, as he goes straight into "besotted geek boy who has lost all sense of metaphysical boundaries on his dark side job" mode and tries to "get to know her" (Solo and Skywalker men have bad boundary awareness and even less self-awareness, lol), and that throws him deep into compassion for and delight in her and upset at her miseries ... It's actually finding Han Solo in her head that breaks the "spell" so to speak.  There is actually a Snoke-ish/Dark-side musical cue that marks the moment he sees Han in there ... and then his total wonder at her cools down quite a bit.  Then he is able to be more dark-sidey and really try to get the map out of her ... but of course, he really doesn't go all the way there ... with his "Don't be afraid, I feel it too" business.  The Han Solo disgust broke the "adoring geek boy" mode, but it didn't kill the attraction/affection/compassion ... hence no Poe treatment and her having a good opening to get in his head.

So two thoughts about that little moment. (1) He does not want the attraction, but he really can hardly help himself.  He's being "seduced by the light" right before our eyes in that scene ... but it's still a struggle and he's unstable, but the seduction has begun ... as was foreshadowed earlier in the film with @IoJovi's favorite line, "I will not be seduced," followed by a quick cut to Rey fixing things. :-)

The other conclusion I reached is that there is going to be *something big* that has happened or he believes that happened with Han.  All that repetition of "Han Solo", all that back and forth struggle of half-hating Han, but loving him and desperately not wanting to kill him as well.  IMO, Snoke wants to be his "Big Daddy" figure, so Han had to be reduced severely in Kylo's eyes.  I am sure Han's apparently mediocre parenting might have helped in that process, but I imagine Snoke injected a fair amount of evil propaganda in there somehow.  The "Han Solo" mantra might be a cultish thing or a trigger thing.  I am more open to those possibilities than many people, but there is not enough information to make a strong argument for it yet.  However, I do think this Father v Father thing is a huge external metaphor for Kylo/Ben's soul.  That is obvious in a way, but just with things like that Han Solo musical cue in the interrogation, I just think that Han has to have played a huge role in Snoke's manufactured seduction of Ben ... and it makes me think we will get some flashback cameos of Harrison in VIII and/or IX.

SoloSideCousin
SoloSideCousin
Force Ghost
Force Ghost

Messages : 4741
Likes : 22971
Date d'inscription : 2016-03-25

Back to top Go down

ARCHIVE: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings - 10 - Page 38 Empty Re: ARCHIVE: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings - 10

Post by snufkin on Tue 27 Sep - 17:01

@reylo1992 wrote:
@snufkin

I agree with you about the idea that the unmasking has nothing to do with being ennemies, just for this reason ;):
ARCHIVE: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings - 10 - Page 38 Screen12

@reylo1992

It's not unrelated for the simple reason that it echoes a scene with his parents! Just look at that bottom panel, the relationship of people in the left panel produced the person in the right panel. I do think it also has another tiny parallel to the Vader-Luke scene (which again, uncle and grandfather) with "Let me see you with my own eyes." He wants Rey to see that he's a person underneath the mask, not a monster. AND he wants to look at her with his own eyes. Also sort of joking, but like his mother, he manages to look amazing with zero helmet hair after demasking.

@SoloSideCousin wrote:The other conclusion I reached is that there is going to be *something big* that has happened or he believes that happened with Han.  All that repetition of "Han Solo", all that back and forth struggle of half-hating Han, but loving him and desperately not wanting to kill him as well.  IMO, Snoke wants to be his "Big Daddy" figure, so Han had to be reduced severely in Kylo's eyes.  I am sure Han's apparently mediocre parenting might have helped in that process, but I imagine Snoke injected a fair amount of evil propaganda in there somehow.  The "Han Solo" mantra might be a cultish thing or a trigger thing.  I am more open to those possibilities than many people, but there is not enough information to make a strong argument for it yet.  However, I do think this Father v Father thing is a huge external metaphor for Kylo/Ben's soul.  That is obvious in a way, but just with things like that Han Solo musical cue in the interrogation, I just think that Han has to have played a huge role in Snoke's manufactured seduction of Ben ... and it makes me think we will get some flashback cameos of Harrison in VIII and/or IX.

It'd be surprising if Han doesn't turn up in flashback at some point because it's a loose end of one of the central dramas/mysteries of the story. At the very least, there'll be him and Leia offstage yelling at each other while teen Ben mopes around.


Last edited by snufkin on Tue 27 Sep - 18:04; edited 2 times in total
snufkin
snufkin
Force Ghost
Force Ghost

Messages : 8334
Likes : 38672
Date d'inscription : 2016-04-16
Localisation : it's in the chorus of Pavement's "Unfair"

Back to top Go down

ARCHIVE: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings - 10 - Page 38 Empty Re: ARCHIVE: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings - 10

Post by IoJovi on Tue 27 Sep - 17:15

@SoloSideCousin wrote:
@Xylo Ren wrote:
@snufkin wrote:Joking aside, that's one of the questions you hope gets answered, why he grabbed her and dragged her back to SKB with him? Because there has to besides just a quickie way of getting the map w/out having to engage his mom (seriously!) in battle or taking his dad prisoner given Snoke's orders. My initial thought was that he got Hell bent to chase her down because he figured she had been part of LST's village and managed to escape along with BB-8 when everybody else was killed. He had to have freaked partially over the news because if went through Poe's memory, there's nothing in there about some girl being involved. So some of it was who the Eff is this girl and who is she working with? Especially if he knows enough already to have figured out that she's the one who hot-wired and flew the MF for the escape. So that has to be part of it, simple curiosity. Which is why he starts leisurely going through her memories.  

It does seem in character that he doesn't think anything that far out in advance. He's all impulse and the big impulse once he sees her, is her. If she hadn't tricked 007,things would've gotten really ugly quick. Because either "briiiing her toooo meeee" would've resulted in her being killed instead of Han as the Blood Oath test of loyalty for completing training. Or he was already starting to think that maybe he should grab her and take off to follow the map (essentially defecting).

Another thing that occurred to me is the whole use of the word Guest, which traditionally means you're accepting somebody as your responsibility and putting them under your protection. So in his screwed up mind, he definitely sees himself as being chivalrous, likely protecting her from those lowlifes in the Resistance. May turn out that it's actually his company and boss who are the people he'll protect her from.
@snufkin

Exactly, and if he saw right then and there that she had seen the map, why didn't he just sap it from her then on Takodana? Like, if he's all powerful with the force, he could've just stolen it from her and left her behind stranded on Jakku. After all she's "just a scavenger", right? Razz
@Xylo Ren

Exactly! I actually just watched the interrogation scene very closely recently, and right before he says that he has been trying his damnedest not to look at her.  For example, right before he raises his head at one point (talking about the imperial archives of course ) and looks over to the side in this awkward way.  The whole moment came across to me as AD playing Kylo Ren trying like he** to shove down a pretty immediate and intense attraction to her and as such, the "You, a scavenger" line, delivered with intense, slightly teary eyes seemed actually more for his benefit than hers, like he was trying to convince himself yet another way, by saying she's "just a scavenger", that he wanted no part of this attraction that had suddenly hit him like a freight train. But of course, even that doesn't work, as he goes straight into "besotted geek boy who has lost all sense of metaphysical boundaries on his dark side job" mode and tries to "get to know her" (Solo and Skywalker men have bad boundary awareness and even less self-awareness, lol), and that throws him deep into compassion for and delight in her and upset at her miseries ... It's actually finding Han Solo in her head that breaks the "spell" so to speak.  There is actually a Snoke-ish/Dark-side musical cue that marks the moment he sees Han in there ... and then his total wonder at her cools down quite a bit.  Then he is able to be more dark-sidey and really try to get the map out of her ... but of course, he really doesn't go all the way there ... with his "Don't be afraid, I feel it too" business.  The Han Solo disgust broke the "adoring geek boy" mode, but it didn't kill the attraction/affection/compassion ... hence no Poe treatment and her having a good opening to get in his head.

So two thoughts about that little moment. (1) He does not want the attraction, but he really can hardly help himself.  He's being "seduced by the light" right before our eyes in that scene ... but it's still a struggle and he's unstable, but the seduction has begun ... as was foreshadowed earlier in the film with @IoJovi's favorite line, "I will not be seduced," followed by a quick cut to Rey fixing things. :-)

The other conclusion I reached is that there is going to be *something big* that has happened or he believes that happened with Han.  All that repetition of "Han Solo", all that back and forth struggle of half-hating Han, but loving him and desperately not wanting to kill him as well.  IMO, Snoke wants to be his "Big Daddy" figure, so Han had to be reduced severely in Kylo's eyes.  I am sure Han's apparently mediocre parenting might have helped in that process, but I imagine Snoke injected a fair amount of evil propaganda in there somehow.  The "Han Solo" mantra might be a cultish thing or a trigger thing.  I am more open to those possibilities than many people, but there is not enough information to make a strong argument for it yet.  However, I do think this Father v Father thing is a huge external metaphor for Kylo/Ben's soul.  That is obvious in a way, but just with things like that Han Solo musical cue in the interrogation, I just think that Han has to have played a huge role in Snoke's manufactured seduction of Ben ... and it makes me think we will get some flashback cameos of Harrison in VIII and/or IX.

@SoloSideCousin

This sums it up nicely why I think the next two films won't be so much about him having an one-sided, obsessive, villainous crush on Rey, but Instead they BOTH have feelings for each other that they're trying to damndest to ignore and stamp out.

He is just such a hot mess at this point that he has a much harder time concealing his feelings than she does, hence the very transparent "You Need A Teacher" line which was actually code for "Stay With Me.".

And yes, I do think Rey is attracted to him, even at this point at the game - that's why twice during the interrogation the audience caught her staring and she had to look away. However, attraction and love are two very separate things, so it will be interesting to watch her feelings evolve as the trilogy goes on.
IoJovi
IoJovi
Force Ghost
Force Ghost

Messages : 7289
Likes : 41505
Date d'inscription : 2016-03-25
Age : 103
Localisation : Atlanta, GA

Back to top Go down

ARCHIVE: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings - 10 - Page 38 Empty Re: ARCHIVE: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings - 10

Post by vaderito on Tue 27 Sep - 18:04

Great stuff, guys! I just want to show something about Kylo as Dark Luke:

Luke (movie #3 out of 3) and Dark Luke (movie #1 out of 3):


ARCHIVE: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings - 10 - Page 38 12976123_207597062955978_738934164_n.jpg?ig_cache_key=MTIyNzk2OTY5MzQ2MjM3NzEyOQ%3D%3D

Burning Homestead moments (both in movie #1 out of 3):

Luke accepts The Call when he sees charred bodies of his aunt and uncle:

ARCHIVE: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings - 10 - Page 38 Sad-Luke

Dark Luke accepts The Call when he sees Rey catch his legacy lightsaber (also movie #1 out of 3)

ARCHIVE: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings - 10 - Page 38 Tumblr_o4rh9vVrLd1rszoo3o6_r2_250
ARCHIVE: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings - 10 - Page 38 Tumblr_inline_o5jc42wnlt1qjtxsg_1280

So where does Dark Luke go from there?

Here

ARCHIVE: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings - 10 - Page 38 Ireland-island-star-wars-the-force-awakens_uxjuas


where it all began. Both Luke and Dark Luke are going to be there. What does it all mean?
vaderito
vaderito
Force Ghost
Force Ghost

Messages : 10383
Likes : 50131
Date d'inscription : 2016-03-25

Back to top Go down

ARCHIVE: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings - 10 - Page 38 Empty Re: ARCHIVE: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings - 10

Post by snufkin on Tue 27 Sep - 18:58

RE: Dark Luke, that was a thing in the run up the release, right? Because Mark Hamill talked about how he thought that would be the route for the character:
Watch Mark Hamill basically pitch evil Luke Skywalker to JJ Abrams in 2005

the concept of Luke Skywalker turning to the dark side of the Force is hardly a new concept. Dark Horse Comics explored it in the terrific Dark Empire series, and Mark Hamill himself recounted pitching the idea to George Lucas during the production of Return Of The Jedi on a 2005 episode of IFC’s Dinner For Five:

“As an actor that would be more fun to play. I just thought that’s the way it was going from when we finished [Empire]. I figured that’s what will be the pivotal moment. I’ll have to come back, but it will be I have Han Solo in my crosshairs and I’ll be about to kill him or about to kill the Princess or about to kill somebody that we care about. It’s an old cornball movie, like World War II movies.”

The episode also featured Kevin Smith, Stan Lee, Jason Lee, and none other than J.J. Abrams, who can be seen possibly spinning his wheels across from Hamill. This could be the moment where the seed of The Force Awakens was born.


Yeah and after having rewatched ESB and RotJ for the TNT marathon, it really struck me how for all the "It's a re-hash of the first movie!" they seriously mined the dialogue and scenes Kasdan wrote for those movies. Even if started out with a different screenwriter, those callbacks mirroring what he wrote for the previous two scenes mean something significant.


Last edited by snufkin on Tue 27 Sep - 19:18; edited 2 times in total
snufkin
snufkin
Force Ghost
Force Ghost

Messages : 8334
Likes : 38672
Date d'inscription : 2016-04-16
Localisation : it's in the chorus of Pavement's "Unfair"

Back to top Go down

ARCHIVE: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings - 10 - Page 38 Empty Re: ARCHIVE: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings - 10

Post by vaderito on Tue 27 Sep - 19:13

There are 2 Dark Lukes. The one that Mark pitched and JJ calling Kylo "Dark Luke". Based on some spoilers from TFA production era, that may be saved for VIII and IX, Luke does get darker.
vaderito
vaderito
Force Ghost
Force Ghost

Messages : 10383
Likes : 50131
Date d'inscription : 2016-03-25

Back to top Go down

ARCHIVE: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings - 10 - Page 38 Empty Re: ARCHIVE: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings - 10

Post by snufkin on Tue 27 Sep - 19:38

Ha, well just in today about JJ and Dark Luke dooming the spin-off/anthology movies

Has JJ Abrams ruined plans to expand the Star Wars universe?

Is it any wonder Rogue One lacks The Force Awakens hype when Abrams recently confirmed franchise isn’t the same without Skywalker and Solo clans?

JJ Abrams might have chosen to go a different way with last year’s Star Wars: The Force Awakens, but instead made the decision to bring back the three major stars of the classic 70s and 80s films. He even gave us a new Solo scion, in the darkling form of Adam Driver’s Kylo Ren, to replace departing sardonic space scoundrel Han. And it worked: fans young and old instantly understood the new movie as a continuation of the story begun by Lucas with 1977’s Star Wars, the decision to reveal that Han and Leia’s son had turned to the dark side was an ingenious tool to revive near-legendary characters while also moving the story forward.

And yet, by confirming Star Wars’ dependence on its traditional clans, might Abrams also have unwittingly derailed Disney’s plans to widen the scope of the space saga? Because the other movie to shift away from the series’ focus on the Skywalker and Solo families is the upcoming Rogue One: A Star Wars Story, and this far out from the film’s 16 December release date, fans don’t seem to be clutching it to their breasts with anything like the level of gusto that welled up months before The Force Awakens actually arrived in multiplexes.

Star Wars is unlikely to ever plumb the depths of Caravan of Courage again, but you have to wonder why Lucasfilm failed to learn its lesson from the independently-produced TV spinoff. Star Wars without the Skywalkers and Solos is like Batman without Bruce Wayne, Harry Potter without Ron and Hermione, James Bond without M and Moneypenny
snufkin
snufkin
Force Ghost
Force Ghost

Messages : 8334
Likes : 38672
Date d'inscription : 2016-04-16
Localisation : it's in the chorus of Pavement's "Unfair"

Back to top Go down

ARCHIVE: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings - 10 - Page 38 Empty Re: ARCHIVE: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings - 10

Post by SoloSideCousin on Tue 27 Sep - 19:42

@vaderito wrote:Great stuff, guys! I just want to show something about Kylo as Dark Luke:

Luke (movie #3 out of 3) and Dark Luke (movie #1 out of 3):


ARCHIVE: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings - 10 - Page 38 12976123_207597062955978_738934164_n.jpg?ig_cache_key=MTIyNzk2OTY5MzQ2MjM3NzEyOQ%3D%3D

Burning Homestead moments (both in movie #1 out of 3):

Luke accepts The Call when he sees charred bodies of his aunt and uncle:

ARCHIVE: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings - 10 - Page 38 Sad-Luke

Dark Luke accepts The Call when he sees Rey catch his legacy lightsaber (also movie #1 out of 3)

ARCHIVE: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings - 10 - Page 38 Tumblr_o4rh9vVrLd1rszoo3o6_r2_250
ARCHIVE: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings - 10 - Page 38 Tumblr_inline_o5jc42wnlt1qjtxsg_1280

So where does Dark Luke go from there?

Here

ARCHIVE: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings - 10 - Page 38 Ireland-island-star-wars-the-force-awakens_uxjuas


where it all began. Both Luke and Dark Luke are going to be there. What does it all mean?
@vaderito

Nobody can really know at this point, but a lot of scenarios come to mind.

The first, like Kylo and Rey, Kylo and Luke could also be two sides of the same coin.  I definitely think that Luke is not going to be as cutesy as everyone expects.  Bloodline & Life Debt, Mark Hamill's "mean old man" look on Ahch-to, and talk we've heard from MSW, Bothan Spy and some of the very early pre-VII spoilers point to a Luke with some significant psychological issues/demons.  Just the other day MSW hinted pretty seriously at Luke "failing Kylo", not the other way around.  That also makes me think of what @snufkin mentioned about MH wanting a darker Luke and JJ Abrams being privy to that.  In addition, Kasdan wanted Luke damaged and to go off into exile because the dark side experience had scarred him.  I don't know if that indicates a Frodo kind of thing, or something a little darker.  At the moment I am leaning on the "little darker" side.

So in the end we possibly could have a situation in VIII where a messed up, tormented Luke contributed heavily to Kylo's damage/fall/ruin.  It won't be something like "Oh yes, let me ruin my sister's son because I am the Emperor of the Charter School now" (cue cheesy sinister laugh), it will be something much more sad and grey and misguided.  In other words, we won't have Evil Luke, but I will really be surprised if we don't have some level of Corrupted/Tainted/Damaged Luke who imparts some of that corruption to his nephew either unwillingly or via bad judgment.  In that scenario, the perfect hero will be flawed and the evil Dad killer will suddenly become the damaged student who will garner some level of sympathy.  It will muddy the waters and that will be good.

Also, back to Kasdan, I remember hearing that in one of the original ROTJ versions that Luke was going to go into exile *with* Vader.  So think about what that might have been like.  Vader might have turned to the light, but he would have still been seriously corrupted and damaged ... and some of the corruption or bad thinking or whatever you want to call it, would have rubbed off on Luke.

I always talk about Kasdan losing the battle in 1983, but winning the war.  So what if the Luke we have now is that damaged/corrupted Luke ... a much more mild version of the Vader father figure/mentor Vader would have been had he lived and went to exile with Luke.  What if that Vader/Luke in exile imagining actually served as the basis for Luke and Ben?  Obviously Luke never would have gone as bad as Vader .... but with how Luke is so in denial in Bloodline, how he can't even fathom Anakin and Vader being the same person ... it really brings up a lot of the Jungian problems addressed in the article I just posted in the Rian Johnson and Jung thread.  The more you repress your shadow/darkness, the more dangerous it becomes.  Luke is completely denying Anakin's shadow ... as such, he might be very hardcore on denying darkness as well, not only in Anakin, but in himself and in Ben.

They talk in the article about how Dr. Jekyll is almost saintly and how this total repression of darkness in that persona made Hyde ridiculously strong.  They talk about how you can't be truly spiritual/religious if you totally deny your darkness ... that if you do that, you are pseudoreligious/spiritual, and kind of indicate without true acceptance of your whole self your whole philosophy could be based on very shaky ground.

My dog is having a hissy fit, so I have to go, but I think that there is something here ... I think there is a playing out of another father/son thing for Ben here, just this time based on the Vader and Luke in exile model, just with a lot less evil father figure ... but of course, Ben is not as evil as Vader, so it works.

Vader had two fathers.  Palpatine and Obi-Wan.  Ben may very well have three on some level.  Han, Snoke and Luke ... but Luke will maybe be more Obi-Wan than father ... but since Luke touched the darkness, he might be part Obi-Wan ... and part Exile Mentor Vader.
SoloSideCousin
SoloSideCousin
Force Ghost
Force Ghost

Messages : 4741
Likes : 22971
Date d'inscription : 2016-03-25

Back to top Go down

ARCHIVE: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings - 10 - Page 38 Empty Re: ARCHIVE: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings - 10

Post by vaderito on Tue 27 Sep - 19:51

@SoloSideCousin Speaking of denial of the shadow, the article clearly says that it's the same perosn, not 2, one good and 1 evil. And that's something SW will have to deal with. Anakin and Vader are the same person. Ben and Kylo are the same person. One didn't destroy the other, they both exist and it was the same one who acted more like one or the other. There can't be integration between 2 sides of the Force while people aren't admitting that Anakin/Vader and Ben/Kylo are 2 sides of the same person. Dark Side of the Force is not separate from the Force, hence why it's Dark Side of the Force. Therefore, Vader is dark side of Anakin, not a separate entity that Luke and OB1 make him out to be, and Kylo is dark side of Ben, not a separate entity that Kylo makes him out to be.
vaderito
vaderito
Force Ghost
Force Ghost

Messages : 10383
Likes : 50131
Date d'inscription : 2016-03-25

Back to top Go down

ARCHIVE: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings - 10 - Page 38 Empty Re: ARCHIVE: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings - 10

Post by BastilaBey on Tue 27 Sep - 20:09

@vaderito wrote:@SoloSideCousin Speaking of denial of the shadow, the article clearly says that it's the same perosn, not 2, one good and 1 evil. And that's something SW will have to deal with. Anakin and Vader are the same person. Ben and Kylo are the same person. One didn't destroy the other, they both exist and it was the same one who acted more like one or the other. There can't be integration between 2 sides of the Force while people aren't admitting that Anakin/Vader and Ben/Kylo are 2 sides of the same person. Dark Side of the Force is not separate from the Force, hence why it's Dark Side of the Force. Therefore, Vader is dark side of Anakin, not a separate entity that Luke and OB1 make him out to be, and Kylo is dark side of Ben, not a separate entity that Kylo makes him out to be.
@vaderito

This is absolutely where are they going in the new canon, including Rebels, and it's a better exploration of the Jungian ideas that were initially filtered through via Campbell in the OT. We all have light and dark in us, and to deny one side is to deny our whole self.

Dave Filoni wrote:What Bendu is will come out of this season....you’re talking about the balance of the force. So the force will be balanced. It seems a lot of people have come up with the idea that it’s the light side versus the dark side instead of the understanding that those two things exist outside of us.
The Sith, who occupy the dark side, are trying to crush the light, I guess. And use the power of the dark side. And the Jedi, representing the light, are attempting to represent that and keep the dark side from gaining power.
But their prophecy and everything they talk about is about balance. It’s not telling them to go destroy the dark side. That’s why, I believe, when you add it to maybe this prophecy we’re misunderstanding it, we’ve misread it, because of the way we’re trying to combat things.
People don’t want to see the Jedi in the films as people who are learning and trying to understand things and coming into knowledge again, but they are. They’re flawed, which is one of the reasons they lose the Clone Wars.
Bendu is another branch of the tree we got into in Clone Wars, where these Mortis beings that represent the dark side and the light side and the balance, and then the force priestesses who seem to go even beyond that type of division and be more like one person split into many different representations. Bendu is a little more in that realm, which I think is always an interesting character because they’re unpredictable. He’s not good and he’s not bad. We’ll have to see how he reacts to the rebels throughout the course of the year."
http://www.blastr.com/2016-9-22/dave-filoni-star-wars-rebels-season-3-and-some-big-questions-fans-minds

Again, very similar ideas to the Adam and Eve theory of balancing the force by returning to the home of the first temple on Ahch-To with young 'lightsider' and young 'darksider'

BastilaBey
BastilaBey
Force Ghost
Force Ghost

Messages : 2350
Likes : 23522
Date d'inscription : 2016-03-25

Back to top Go down

ARCHIVE: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings - 10 - Page 38 Empty Re: ARCHIVE: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings - 10

Post by snufkin on Tue 27 Sep - 20:14

That reminded me of something else I noticed watching RotJ, when Luke tells Leia for the first time and asks if she remembers her mother. Which is partially a roundabout way of both bringing up their biological parentage. She remembers her adoptive mother while he has no memory at all and says it in this very sad voice. One of my takeaways from Bloodline was that psychologically, her adoptive parents filled the role completely her in life. Versus the very obvious need Luke voices, to the extent that post saving their father from the DS, he's in denial a bit. Or that the deceased parent (which he identifies by the publicly safe, not DS persona) fills that sort of imaginary role in his mind. The revelation of their parentage has two very different effects on them - she's in denial/horror because of the completely awful things that their bio dad did to her, her planet (essentially murdering the man she considers to be her father), and her husband. Meanwhile there's the line about how 'beatific' Luke is when telling her the story of their father's last words. He's in denial in the opposite direction. No wonder that whole family needed to go to group therapy.

With Rey's own issues of believing that her 'family' was going to return to her after 15 years, there has to be some kind of dovetailing of those issues and emotions in her interactions with Luke. Geez, that's going to fuel some viewers' continued insistence that she has to be his kid!
snufkin
snufkin
Force Ghost
Force Ghost

Messages : 8334
Likes : 38672
Date d'inscription : 2016-04-16
Localisation : it's in the chorus of Pavement's "Unfair"

Back to top Go down

ARCHIVE: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings - 10 - Page 38 Empty Re: ARCHIVE: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings - 10

Post by snufkin on Tue 27 Sep - 20:29

@BastilaBey wrote:
@vaderito

This is absolutely where are they going in the new canon, including Rebels, and it's a better exploration of the Jungian ideas that were initially filtered through via Campbell in the OT. We all have light and dark in us, and to deny one side is to deny our whole self.

Dave Filoni wrote:What Bendu is will come out of this season....you’re talking about the balance of the force. So the force will be balanced. It seems a lot of people have come up with the idea that it’s the light side versus the dark side instead of the understanding that those two things exist outside of us.
The Sith, who occupy the dark side, are trying to crush the light, I guess. And use the power of the dark side. And the Jedi, representing the light, are attempting to represent that and keep the dark side from gaining power.
But their prophecy and everything they talk about is about balance. It’s not telling them to go destroy the dark side. That’s why, I believe, when you add it to maybe this prophecy we’re misunderstanding it, we’ve misread it, because of the way we’re trying to combat things.
People don’t want to see the Jedi in the films as people who are learning and trying to understand things and coming into knowledge again, but they are. They’re flawed, which is one of the reasons they lose the Clone Wars.
Bendu is another branch of the tree we got into in Clone Wars, where these Mortis beings that represent the dark side and the light side and the balance, and then the force priestesses who seem to go even beyond that type of division and be more like one person split into many different representations. Bendu is a little more in that realm, which I think is always an interesting character because they’re unpredictable. He’s not good and he’s not bad. We’ll have to see how he reacts to the rebels throughout the course of the year."
http://www.blastr.com/2016-9-22/dave-filoni-star-wars-rebels-season-3-and-some-big-questions-fans-minds

Again, very similar ideas to the Adam and Eve theory of balancing the force by returning to the home of the first temple on Ahch-To with young 'lightsider' and young 'darksider'

@BastilaBey

And this definitely goes with the "he thinks he's justified because it's for the greater good" quotes:

the mistake you always make is you think, well I can handle it. I won’t be corrupted by this. My friends need me to do this and I’m going to do this for them because, if I become more powerful, we’re all going to be safer. Things wouldn’t have happened if I had been more powerful, things wouldn’t have happened if I had more abilities. I could have fought these things off and I wouldn’t have been deceived. Your mindset is going down that path...Even in trying to do great good, you can actually do evil.

Your point of view and how you’re doing these things and you think you’re being selfless but you’re actually not.

I like to think most people don’t sit out there and think, “I’m going to be selfish today.”

Also nice one with it being voiced by Tom Baker. The 4th Doctor knows a thing or two about going back to the source

[/quote]
snufkin
snufkin
Force Ghost
Force Ghost

Messages : 8334
Likes : 38672
Date d'inscription : 2016-04-16
Localisation : it's in the chorus of Pavement's "Unfair"

Back to top Go down

ARCHIVE: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings - 10 - Page 38 Empty Re: ARCHIVE: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings - 10

Post by SoloSideCousin on Tue 27 Sep - 21:12

@BastilaBey wrote:
@vaderito wrote:@SoloSideCousin Speaking of denial of the shadow, the article clearly says that it's the same perosn, not 2, one good and 1 evil. And that's something SW will have to deal with. Anakin and Vader are the same person. Ben and Kylo are the same person. One didn't destroy the other, they both exist and it was the same one who acted more like one or the other. There can't be integration between 2 sides of the Force while people aren't admitting that Anakin/Vader and Ben/Kylo are 2 sides of the same person. Dark Side of the Force is not separate from the Force, hence why it's Dark Side of the Force. Therefore, Vader is dark side of Anakin, not a separate entity that Luke and OB1 make him out to be, and Kylo is dark side of Ben, not a separate entity that Kylo makes him out to be.
@vaderito

This is absolutely where are they going in the new canon, including Rebels, and it's a better exploration of the Jungian ideas that were initially filtered through via Campbell in the OT. We all have light and dark in us, and to deny one side is to deny our whole self.

Dave Filoni wrote:What Bendu is will come out of this season....you’re talking about the balance of the force. So the force will be balanced. It seems a lot of people have come up with the idea that it’s the light side versus the dark side instead of the understanding that those two things exist outside of us.
The Sith, who occupy the dark side, are trying to crush the light, I guess. And use the power of the dark side. And the Jedi, representing the light, are attempting to represent that and keep the dark side from gaining power.
But their prophecy and everything they talk about is about balance. It’s not telling them to go destroy the dark side. That’s why, I believe, when you add it to maybe this prophecy we’re misunderstanding it, we’ve misread it, because of the way we’re trying to combat things.
People don’t want to see the Jedi in the films as people who are learning and trying to understand things and coming into knowledge again, but they are. They’re flawed, which is one of the reasons they lose the Clone Wars.
Bendu is another branch of the tree we got into in Clone Wars, where these Mortis beings that represent the dark side and the light side and the balance, and then the force priestesses who seem to go even beyond that type of division and be more like one person split into many different representations. Bendu is a little more in that realm, which I think is always an interesting character because they’re unpredictable. He’s not good and he’s not bad. We’ll have to see how he reacts to the rebels throughout the course of the year."
http://www.blastr.com/2016-9-22/dave-filoni-star-wars-rebels-season-3-and-some-big-questions-fans-minds

Again, very similar ideas to the Adam and Eve theory of balancing the force by returning to the home of the first temple on Ahch-To with young 'lightsider' and young 'darksider'

@BastilaBey

OMG! That Dave Filoni quote has to be one of the Top 10 quotes of ST era, certainly a top 10 among non-Reylo quotes, though there are plenty of Reylo implications in it. Very Happy But seriously, this is what we have been talking about for months. So awesome! :-)
SoloSideCousin
SoloSideCousin
Force Ghost
Force Ghost

Messages : 4741
Likes : 22971
Date d'inscription : 2016-03-25

Back to top Go down

ARCHIVE: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings - 10 - Page 38 Empty Re: ARCHIVE: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings - 10

Post by Mana on Tue 27 Sep - 21:24

Yep, I can totally see Luke going down the path of the old Jedi order or 'someone else's plan' for him and sort of losing sight of how his father's redemption really went down. I think even Luke was only thinking in black and white and that caused him to become detached from his nephew.
Mana
Mana
Force Ghost
Force Ghost

Messages : 1439
Likes : 12337
Date d'inscription : 2016-03-26
Age : 27
Localisation : Australia

Back to top Go down

ARCHIVE: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings - 10 - Page 38 Empty Re: ARCHIVE: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings - 10

Post by Sylvia Snow on Tue 27 Sep - 21:44

What strikes me is that in the TFA concept art, Luke was depicted as the lone hermit who looks broken while buried himself under the sand as if he wanted to buried the past. Also sand is the represented of passing time so I think it could symbol a kind of burden that Luke have to carried and it's tormented him,maybe in a way kinda like the effects of the One Ring to Frodo, corrupt his soul, either that or it could means he's being trapped in time/the past and unable to move on or break free despite the changing around and it's somewhat "killing" him figuratively, I.e the second picture where he's likely somewhere unground, inside a forgotten abandoned ancient structure while the sands from the world above slowly burying him alive.

Not to mention, instead of using bright light and colors, Luke was drawn with darker color and lightning which to me show that he's no longer be considered himself as a hero but maybe a fallen one. Also the picture of a pale white haunted face  that sort of look like Snoke at the upper right corner of the first picture, is that Luke or an early version of Luke?

ARCHIVE: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings - 10 - Page 38 Star-Wars-The-Force-Awakens-Concept-Art-Luke-Skywalker-Sand

ARCHIVE: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings - 10 - Page 38 Star-Wars-The-Force-Awakens-Concept-Art-Luke-Isolation

ARCHIVE: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings - 10 - Page 38 3c4tMpAr
Sylvia Snow
Sylvia Snow
Force Ghost
Force Ghost

Messages : 1384
Likes : 5696
Date d'inscription : 2016-03-26

Back to top Go down

ARCHIVE: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings - 10 - Page 38 Empty Re: ARCHIVE: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings - 10

Post by Gemini on Tue 27 Sep - 23:24

@snufkin wrote:
@reylo1992 wrote:
@snufkin

I agree with you about the idea that the unmasking has nothing to do with being ennemies, just for this reason Wink:
ARCHIVE: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings - 10 - Page 38 Screen12

@reylo1992

It's not unrelated for the simple reason that it echoes a scene with his parents! Just look at that bottom panel, the relationship of people in the left panel produced the person in the right panel. I do think it also has another tiny parallel to the Vader-Luke scene (which again, uncle and grandfather) with "Let me see you with my own eyes." He wants Rey to see that he's a person underneath the mask, not a monster. AND he wants to look at her with his own eyes. Also sort of joking, but like his mother, he manages to look amazing with zero helmet hair after demasking.

@SoloSideCousin wrote:The other conclusion I reached is that there is going to be *something big* that has happened or he believes that happened with Han.  All that repetition of "Han Solo", all that back and forth struggle of half-hating Han, but loving him and desperately not wanting to kill him as well.  IMO, Snoke wants to be his "Big Daddy" figure, so Han had to be reduced severely in Kylo's eyes.  I am sure Han's apparently mediocre parenting might have helped in that process, but I imagine Snoke injected a fair amount of evil propaganda in there somehow.  The "Han Solo" mantra might be a cultish thing or a trigger thing.  I am more open to those possibilities than many people, but there is not enough information to make a strong argument for it yet.  However, I do think this Father v Father thing is a huge external metaphor for Kylo/Ben's soul.  That is obvious in a way, but just with things like that Han Solo musical cue in the interrogation, I just think that Han has to have played a huge role in Snoke's manufactured seduction of Ben ... and it makes me think we will get some flashback cameos of Harrison in VIII and/or IX.

It'd be surprising if Han doesn't turn up in flashback at some point because it's a loose end of one of the central dramas/mysteries of the story. At the very least, there'll be him and Leia offstage yelling at each other while teen Ben mopes around.
@snufkin

I always felt that It's ironic, kylo hates his dad but is falling for someone who is similar to him in terms of a living she makes and who has trigger happy behaviour. Shoot first care later.
Gemini
Gemini
Force Ghost
Force Ghost

Messages : 3057
Likes : 12134
Date d'inscription : 2016-03-26

Back to top Go down

ARCHIVE: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings - 10 - Page 38 Empty Re: ARCHIVE: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings - 10

Post by Darth_Awakened on Tue 27 Sep - 23:55

@snufkin wrote:That reminded me of something else I noticed watching RotJ, when Luke tells Leia for the first time and asks if she remembers her mother. Which is partially a roundabout way of both bringing up their biological parentage. She remembers her adoptive mother while he has no memory at all and says it in this very sad voice. One of my takeaways from Bloodline was that psychologically, her adoptive parents filled the role completely her in life. Versus the very obvious need Luke voices, to the extent that post saving their father from the DS, he's in denial a bit. Or that the deceased parent (which he identifies by the publicly safe, not DS persona) fills that sort of imaginary role in his mind. The revelation of their parentage has two very different effects on them - she's in denial/horror because of the completely awful things that their bio dad did to her, her planet (essentially murdering the man she considers to be her father), and her husband. Meanwhile there's the line about how 'beatific' Luke is when telling her the story of their father's last words. He's in denial in the opposite direction. No wonder that whole family needed to go to group therapy.

With Rey's own issues of believing that her 'family' was going to return to her after 15 years, there has to be some kind of dovetailing of those issues and emotions in her interactions with Luke. Geez, that's going to fuel some viewers' continued insistence that she has to be his kid!
@snufkin

The whole concept of Luke and Vader s relationship in OT was the archetypal relationship of a child and an ideal image of parent (ANH), which led to the discovery of truth: Parent is a person - a bad one in this case (ESB), and in then it ended in maturity as a natural progress of acceptance of both sides of a parent(ROTJ).
At the first glance and without much thinking I would say that Leia (Bloodline) is still struggling with the last part of it, same is for her son - he totally rejected the "bad" person of his father (a weak and foolish smuggler) by killing him.
There also one big difference between Luke and Kylo. Luke had his immaculate, ideal of image of a father all through his childhood and adolescenece without a real presence (he thought him dead), Kylo on the other hand has real father all along.
Luke s and Kylo s perspective towards the realtion with father figure are totally different, so those who understand Luke as an ultimate good person, and Kylo as an ultimate bad person - should think about all the circumstances of their respective and different up-bringing.

Darth_Awakened
Darth_Awakened
Force Ghost
Force Ghost

Messages : 4457
Likes : 22094
Date d'inscription : 2016-03-26

Back to top Go down

ARCHIVE: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings - 10 - Page 38 Empty Re: ARCHIVE: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings - 10

Post by CienaRee on Wed 28 Sep - 2:22

@BastilaBey wrote:
@vaderito wrote:@SoloSideCousin Speaking of denial of the shadow, the article clearly says that it's the same perosn, not 2, one good and 1 evil. And that's something SW will have to deal with. Anakin and Vader are the same person. Ben and Kylo are the same person. One didn't destroy the other, they both exist and it was the same one who acted more like one or the other. There can't be integration between 2 sides of the Force while people aren't admitting that Anakin/Vader and Ben/Kylo are 2 sides of the same person. Dark Side of the Force is not separate from the Force, hence why it's Dark Side of the Force. Therefore, Vader is dark side of Anakin, not a separate entity that Luke and OB1 make him out to be, and Kylo is dark side of Ben, not a separate entity that Kylo makes him out to be.
@vaderito

This is absolutely where are they going in the new canon, including Rebels, and it's a better exploration of the Jungian ideas that were initially filtered through via Campbell in the OT. We all have light and dark in us, and to deny one side is to deny our whole self.

Dave Filoni wrote:What Bendu is will come out of this season....you’re talking about the balance of the force. So the force will be balanced. It seems a lot of people have come up with the idea that it’s the light side versus the dark side instead of the understanding that those two things exist outside of us.
The Sith, who occupy the dark side, are trying to crush the light, I guess. And use the power of the dark side. And the Jedi, representing the light, are attempting to represent that and keep the dark side from gaining power.
But their prophecy and everything they talk about is about balance. It’s not telling them to go destroy the dark side. That’s why, I believe, when you add it to maybe this prophecy we’re misunderstanding it, we’ve misread it, because of the way we’re trying to combat things.
People don’t want to see the Jedi in the films as people who are learning and trying to understand things and coming into knowledge again, but they are. They’re flawed, which is one of the reasons they lose the Clone Wars.
Bendu is another branch of the tree we got into in Clone Wars, where these Mortis beings that represent the dark side and the light side and the balance, and then the force priestesses who seem to go even beyond that type of division and be more like one person split into many different representations. Bendu is a little more in that realm, which I think is always an interesting character because they’re unpredictable. He’s not good and he’s not bad. We’ll have to see how he reacts to the rebels throughout the course of the year."
http://www.blastr.com/2016-9-22/dave-filoni-star-wars-rebels-season-3-and-some-big-questions-fans-minds

Again, very similar ideas to the Adam and Eve theory of balancing the force by returning to the home of the first temple on Ahch-To with young 'lightsider' and young 'darksider'

@BastilaBey
It's really seems that they're moving from the whole light vs dark that was presented in the OT.I also find these questions  from the interview very interesting especially in relation to Kylo and Rey:

Ezra has some new tricks now, thanks to the Sith Holocron, but I have a canonical question. Jedi never seem to fully explain to their padawans why the dark side of the force is so tempting and dangerous. Obi-Wan, and Kanan, and even Yoda, they all say it’s not good, they all say it’s dangerous, but they don’t necessarily go into detail on where the danger lies. I’m wondering if that’s just something that’s been more of a story device throughout the years, or do you think it’s something where they actually can’t explain the seductive nature of it because they haven’t been seduced by it?

DF: I think both things are actually true. I think on some level when you’re dealing with very strict black and white answers...I think in some ways, and I got into this in The Clone Wars a little bit, they’re all seduced on some level during the Clone Wars. That’s why things kind of get as bad as they do during that time period. They are all straying away from the type of people they should be and allowing themselves to be drawn into this conflict which they really shouldn’t be a part of.

At the end of the day, I think there are ways they think the dark side corrupts you and there are things they don’t think you can come back from. But until you’re in that situation, and people are in jeopardy and you feel you need to stop people from being injured, you don’t really know what the draw of it is. I think the biggest thing is you don’t really ever say, “Oh, today I’m using the dark side of the force.”
It’s not a switch you flip. It’s not a simple thing...I would say that even Anakin, for his part in becoming Darth Vader, it’s not like he goes, “Okay, now I’m using the dark side of the force. He pledges himself to Palpatine, but he’s still trying to hold onto the idea that he’s the one doing good and that the Jedi are the ones that are corrupt.
For Ezra I think, accessing the Sith Holocron, the mistake you always make is you think, well I can handle it. I won’t be corrupted by this. My friends need me to do this and I’m going to do this for them because, if I become more powerful, we’re all going to be safer. Things that happened to Ahsoka wouldn’t have happened if I had been more powerful, things that happened to Kanan wouldn’t have happened if I had more abilities. I could have fought these things off and I wouldn’t have been deceived. Your mindset is going down that path, which is what Bendu is saying in the other clip. Even in trying to do great good, you can actually do evil.
Your point of view and how you’re doing these things and you think you’re being selfless but you’re actually not.
I like to think most people don’t sit out there and think, “I’m going to be selfish today.”



I think part of it is, when I’ve heard Jedi try to explain, it’s the dark side is seductive and it’s dangerous. But...could we go into some detail on that? What this might look like? So if it’s happening you might be able to make it stop?


DF: Yeah, it seems always like such an inevitability, right? Most people named Skywalker tend to really go to the dark side. You’re like, why would you trust those guys?


Of course. I think that’s the thing because it’s hard to tell someone, you can be given ultimate power, even if you think you’re gonna save your friends, you just can’t take that. Because it’s not going to be what you think. Even if you told someone that truth, this power is going to be corrupting even though you can do great good, it’s hard in that moment to turn down that power. You see Tolkien play with that same thing with the ring, what the charactersSTRUGGLEARCHIVE: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings - 10 - Page 38 Arrow-10x10 with. But I could save everyone, I could set things right, and I wouldn’t be corrupt. It’s like, yeah, okay, that’s probably not true.

CienaRee
Force Ghost
Force Ghost

Messages : 1154
Likes : 5684
Date d'inscription : 2016-03-26

Back to top Go down

ARCHIVE: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings - 10 - Page 38 Empty Re: ARCHIVE: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings - 10

Post by vaderito on Wed 28 Sep - 3:59

Re: Filoni quotes and Adam&Eve video. I love Filoni interview and all the talk about the need for balance of the Force and what they were doing with Mortis and now Bendu in Rebels. And now I have a question for fans - who they think will bring the balance of the Force in the movies? Cause it's very obvious to me that it's going to be Rey and Kylo. No more Chosen One has to do it all. In fact, when you think about it, Kylo was born in equal measure Dark and Light, a perfect embodiment of the Force, and yet that couldn't hold. So One is not the option but Two could achieve Yin and Yang type of balance where they both have Dark and Light but one is more one and other is more other but they integrate that, don't try to deny either Light or Dark. I don't know why some fans dance around this when it's logical and well set up in TFA. Both characters are going to the First Jedi Temple. I bet Luke didn't go there if he didn't hope to find the way how to bring the Force into balance permanently. It's a Genesys story and Rey and Kylo are Adam and Eve because they'll bring the balance. Otherwise they wouldn't be called to that place. They are needed.
vaderito
vaderito
Force Ghost
Force Ghost

Messages : 10383
Likes : 50131
Date d'inscription : 2016-03-25

Back to top Go down

ARCHIVE: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings - 10 - Page 38 Empty Re: ARCHIVE: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings - 10

Post by CienaRee on Wed 28 Sep - 7:06

@vaderito wrote:Re: Filoni quotes and Adam&Eve video. I love Filoni interview and all the talk about the need for balance of the Force and what they were doing with Mortis and now Bendu in Rebels. And now I have a question for fans - who they think will bring the balance of the Force in the movies? Cause it's very obvious to me that it's going to be Rey and Kylo. No more Chosen One has to do it all. In fact, when you think about it, Kylo was born in equal measure Dark and Light, a perfect embodiment of the Force, and yet that couldn't hold. So One is not the option but Two could achieve Yin and Yang type of balance where they both have Dark and Light but one is more one and other is more other but they integrate that, don't try to deny either Light or Dark. I don't know why some fans dance around this when it's logical and well set up in TFA. Both characters are going to the First Jedi Temple. I bet Luke didn't go there if he didn't hope to find the way how to bring the Force into balance permanently. It's a Genesys story and Rey and Kylo are Adam and Eve because they'll bring the balance. Otherwise they wouldn't be called to that place. They are needed.
@vaderito

It's interesting when you think about it since Maz tells Rey to let the Light guide her yet she's tapes more easily to the DS while Kylo's drawn to the Light when he wants the DS/Vader to help him achive his goals.It's really much more than just Rey being the Light and Kylo the Dark.

CienaRee
Force Ghost
Force Ghost

Messages : 1154
Likes : 5684
Date d'inscription : 2016-03-26

Back to top Go down

Page 38 of 40 Previous  1 ... 20 ... 37, 38, 39, 40  Next

Back to top


 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum