ARCHIVE: Rey's Lineage Discussion II - 2

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Post by TheBastardofMandalore on Mon 09 Jan 2017, 12:49 am

@panki wrote:
@spacebaby45678 wrote:
@Gemini wrote:Was obi wan ever introduced to korkie?

I need to watch the clonewars


To be honest I've always thought obi having a kid (knowing him or not) actually makes his character more interesting and three dimensional. I think the audience would flock in to see what happened. I Can't help but love a secret backstory being revealed about a character we thought we all knew.
@Gemini

Obi does not know that korkie exists
@panki wrote:
@spacebaby45678 wrote:You can't be a dead beat Dad if you did not know you had a kid, in that measure even Darth is not a dead beat. Between Obi & Luke the only one set up to be an unknowing Dad like Papa Darth is Obi... if the SG decides to go that route, the skeleton of the story is there.
@spacebaby45678

I have no issue with Rey being a Kenobi but it should not be done by ruining Obi-wan's character by either making him break the jedi code or being a deadbeat Dad.

1. If Korkie is Obi-wan's child, then Obi-wan is a deadbeat Dad because he spent a good amount of time around him in TCW and never acknowledged him.

2. If Obi-wan and Satine had a child (Korkie or not) and she never told him, even at the time of her death, then he isn't a deadbeat Dad but she comes across looking really bad....she had enough time to tell him about her feelings for him, he had enough time to tell her he would have left the order if she asked...but no mention of a child? Makes no sense or makes Satine look stupid.

3. I see no skeleton for Obi-wan being a parent by conventional means....everyone both in the story and in LF interviews refer to him as a hermit...let us just look at legends, most of which is being brought into canon- Obi-wan had no child....Obi-wan was the finest jedi, never fell or was tempted to fall to the  dark side even in the face of extreme loss and pain...true jedi look at people in general with compassion- they don't do things to hurt others and I think having a fling with some female and leaving her and/or their child to go care for Luke is extremely callous and selfish.....they would never do that with Obi-wan's character.
@panki

Rey can be a niece of Obi, or Random it does not matter, however, I don't think Obi is such a black and white character. Obi lied to Luke, Obi should have killed Anakin on Mustafar but his love for Anakin interfered with that. How many people died because Obi did not do the right thing? Obi totally ignores subtlies from Satine, things he should have picked up on.
@spacebaby45678

Obi-wan is pretty much a straight forward character and a true jedi.....and about the two occasions you listed:

1. There is a deleted scene in ESB that clarifies that Yoda told Obi-wan to lie to Luke about Vader killing his father...though Obi wanted to tell the truth....so this means Obi-wan was just obeying Yoda and therefore still following the rules of the jedi order and obeying the grand master.

2. Please read the novelisation of ROTS- Obi-wan didn't kill Anakin because he realised he would turn to the dark side if he killed him....not because of love.....the jedi don't kill unarmed people, and Anakin was unarmed and wounded badly- it isnt the jedi way. So again, Obi-wan was upholding the jedi code, not acting on emotions.
@panki
I agree with spacebaby and Gemini. Revealing that Obi-Wan has a secret kid makes him more interesting, 3 dimensional and a complex human character. Also, Korkie never met Obi-Wan in the CW. I don't think Satine's keeping Korkie's existence secret (hypothetically speaking) is as simple as her being a self serving jerk. It shows she is flawed and multilayered just like Padme. She kept her son secret to protect him from her political enemies as well as to protect Obi-Wan's status in the order. Was it selfish? Yes, in some ways. But as a parent myself, I can see her trying to do the right by her child due to her circumstances.

That being said, I do understand your desire to not wanting to see Obi-Wan flawed in any way. Many people have this idea of him as the ultimate Jedi. He is simply better in the minds of many fans and they don't want that perception tarnished. For me though it makes him boring and one dimensional.

Disney seems to be trying its hardest to bring Satine back into the fold. Her image in Rebels and the whole Mandalorian/Kenobi plot driving season 3. She is also mentioned, many times, on the Star Wars website as Obi-Wan's "love". If she and Mandalore have no significance to the larger plot of SW then why bring her back from the dead so to speak and re-introduce them to the audience?
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Post by panki on Mon 09 Jan 2017, 3:01 am

@TheBastardofMandalore

I don't think denying someone the knowledge they have a child is unselfish....if (and this is a very big if) Satine did die without revealing to Obi-wan she had a child....she was denying Obi-wan the knowledge he had a child hence denying a father the right to access his child...and denying the child access to his or her father, especially since the child would be losing one parent the moment Satine died....I don't think condemning a child to be an orphan at any age is protection of any sort. A child deserves to know their parents...she denied a child the right to meet their real parent and she was also denying Obi-wan the right to choose whether he wanted to be a parent or not.....this comes across as selfish on all counts....so I honestly hope she wasn't hiding anything of the sort when she died.

Obi-wan was great because of his steadfastness....he made a promise to his master to care for Anakin and be his master....he stuck to his word....he followed the rules of the jedi council implicitly through TCW.....he stayed on Tatooine for 19 years, caring for Luke day and night till he was ready for his call to adventure...he sacrificed himself for the greater good by dying in the fight with Vader....I don't think this makes him one dimensional- it makes him a selfless person who cared for the good of others over his own desires.

The Mahabharata has a character who is very similar called Bhisma who is considered the embodiment of sacrifice and devotion.....he takes an oath to remain celibate and to serve whoever ruled the kingdom for the sake of his father's happiness (sounds a lot like Obiwan's oath to Qui Gon to look after the Chosen One)..... even the Gods were supposed to be in awe of his oath....he had a complex relationship with a woman but never acted on it......he looked after and taught future generations of the family, kept his oath and was granted the power to choose when he would die because of the oath he took, and he became a celestial....Obi-wan was this when it came to the jedi order.....he held on and suffered for years, sacrificing himself for others until he allowed Vader to strike him down, making him more powerful than he ever was i.e a force ghost. If an epic that has lasted 1000s of years could have an Obi-wan type character as one of its main characters.....who upheld his vows, looked after the next generation and was interesting without the need to have secret affairs and hidden children, am sure Star Wars can do the same.

While the return of Kenobi is a big plot in season 3.....I would wait to see whether the Sabine-Mandalorian plot is connected to it....as of now, it is Ezra-Maul-the holocrons that are one plot of season 3 and Sabine-Fenn Rau-Imperial supercommandos/Gar Saxon-mandalore-dark saber in another plot if we go by how the episodes have been shown... I am open to the possibility that the plots will converge, but as of now there is no sign of it.

As for showing her image in that creepy manner, I saw it as Maul trying to piece his mind together and building a shrine of his memories....the same room also held the nightbrother's weapons, the nightsister's relics and shadow collective armor.....he also wrote Obi-wan in blood on the walls....so the intent of LF is to show Maul's fractured memories and to foreshadow the return of Obi-wan and what better way that to show us the one way Maul hurt him i.e. killing Satine....I believe Maul's shrine of memories and the new teaster of the second half of season 3 indicates the long awaited and anticipated confrontation between Maul and Obi-wan, not some way to re-introduce their romance since the trailer showed just that-- Obi-wan ready for battle.

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Post by spacebaby45678 on Mon 09 Jan 2017, 4:00 am

Obi denied Anakin/Darth the knowledge of his children.
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Post by panki on Mon 09 Jan 2017, 4:14 am

@spacebaby45678 wrote:Obi denied Anakin/Darth the knowledge of his children.
@spacebaby45678

I believe this was clarified in a deleted scene in ESB where Yoda admits that he was the one who told Obi-wan not to tell Luke about his father...thus denying both Luke and Anakin the chance to learn about one another....so I would say it was Yoda's decision, not Obi-wans.....Obi-wan was merely following the directive of the Grand master of the jedi order....again proving his dedication to duty and the jedi order.


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Post by spacebaby45678 on Mon 09 Jan 2017, 4:55 am

@panki wrote:
@spacebaby45678 wrote:Obi denied Anakin/Darth the knowledge of his children.
@spacebaby45678

I believe this was clarified in a deleted scene in ESB where Yoda admits that he was the one who told Obi-wan not to tell Luke about his father...thus denying both Luke and Anakin the chance to learn about one another....so I would say it was Yoda's decision, not Obi-wans.....Obi-wan was merely following the directive of the Grand master of the jedi order....again proving his dedication to duty and the jedi order.

@panki

We are getting a little off subject, but one should not follow orders if they are morally or ethically wrong.. this was covered in the Nuremberg trials.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superior_orders

To protect the twins... I think hiding them to protect them from Darth and the Emperor was probably a correct decision, however it could be argued that redemption for Darth could have come earlier if he knew that his children survived, maybe this would have created internal conflict and he would have killed the Palps sooner and sacrificed himself. ( honestly who knows)

I think the one of the points of GL's Clone Wars was to raise the ethics question pertaining to The Jedi Order, what they where doing "waging war" against the Empire, was it the correct response? Also, the reason Satine is a pacifist is to give voice to an alternative to view and she calls Obi on is BS many times, one of the reasons they are one of the better couples in ST saga

There is really good analysis on how the Jedi Order are wrong in the PT for they way they handled things, there are alternative views and honestly I think GL meant for it to be that way...

http://thefederalist.com/2015/10/22/9-reasons-the-jedi-are-actually-the-bad-guys-in-star-wars/

http://www.cracked.com/article_22320_6-weird-ways-star-wars-had-us-rooting-psychopaths.html

http://www.starwarsunderworld.com/2012/03/opinion-why-jedi-are-more-evil-than-sith.html



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Post by panki on Mon 09 Jan 2017, 6:36 am

@spacebaby45678 wrote:
@panki wrote:
@spacebaby45678 wrote:Obi denied Anakin/Darth the knowledge of his children.
@spacebaby45678

I believe this was clarified in a deleted scene in ESB where Yoda admits that he was the one who told Obi-wan not to tell Luke about his father...thus denying both Luke and Anakin the chance to learn about one another....so I would say it was Yoda's decision, not Obi-wans.....Obi-wan was merely following the directive of the Grand master of the jedi order....again proving his dedication to duty and the jedi order.

@panki

We are getting a little off subject, but one should not follow orders if they are morally or ethically wrong.. this was covered in the Nuremberg trials.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superior_orders

To protect the twins... I think hiding them to protect them from Darth and the Emperor was probably a correct decision, however it could be argued that redemption for Darth could have come earlier if he knew that his children survived, maybe this would have created internal conflict and he would have killed the Palps sooner and sacrificed himself. ( honestly who knows)

I think the one of the points of GL's Clone Wars was to raise the ethics question pertaining to The Jedi Order, what they where doing "waging war" against the Empire, was it the correct response? Also, the reason Satine is a pacifist is to give voice to an alternative to view and she calls Obi on is BS many times, one of the reasons they are one of the better couples in ST saga

There is really good analysis on how the Jedi Order are wrong in the PT for they way they handled things, there are alternative views and honestly I think GL meant for it to be that way...

http://thefederalist.com/2015/10/22/9-reasons-the-jedi-are-actually-the-bad-guys-in-star-wars/

http://www.cracked.com/article_22320_6-weird-ways-star-wars-had-us-rooting-psychopaths.html

http://www.starwarsunderworld.com/2012/03/opinion-why-jedi-are-more-evil-than-sith.html



@spacebaby45678

I'm not sure the Nuremburg trials apply here as we're talking about Obi-wan relying on the wisdom of a spiritual leader who was near 900 years old and had therefore seen enough of life and the galaxy....as well as had a deep understanding of the force....hence, would make a capable decision...not a real world situation where some superior who is close the the age of the junior officer and barely possesses the requisite knowledge and experience.....so Obi-wan was right to defer to Yoda's wisdom here....while the jedi order had made mistakes and turned political, Yoda was the first to admit they were wrong and wanted the Skywalker children brought up in stable family environments.

I don't dispute that Vader might have returned to the light if he found he had a child and Palps lied to him...but there was also the risk that Vader would have decided to turn them to the dark side and trained them to help him overthrow Palps and rule the galaxy....that was a big risk to take and it was safer that they were brought up in stable homes till they were grown up and emotionally ready ready to face such a test....and even as adults, it shocked them to the core...so imagine how they would have been as vulnerable children?

I'm not disputing that Obi-wan and Satine were one of the best couples in SW.... that is probably what makes it all the more tragic..... that Obi-wan chose duty to the jedi order instead of chucking it up and telling Satine how he felt about her instead of just flirty banter.

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Post by Gemini on Mon 09 Jan 2017, 7:02 am

I just cant imagine a set of anthology movies based around obi wan as a pure saint characher. I've always preferred grey area characters.

How will they make movies an audience wants  to see if he's just a space monk? Kinda dull imo. Also something in 9 has to kick start interest in the next movies. Imo the biggest money grabber is this kind of reveal

Him just aiding her like a force ghost mentor is not going to generate butts in seats? Him being vaguely linked to her also imo won't generate interest.
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Post by panki on Mon 09 Jan 2017, 7:10 am

@Gemini wrote:I just cant imagine a set of anthology movies based around obi wan as a pure saint characher. I've always preferred grey area characters.

How will they make movies an audience wants  to see if he's just a space monk? Kinda dull imo. Also something in 9 has to kick start interest in the next movies. Imo the biggest money grabber is this kind of reveal

Him just aiding her like a force ghost mentor is not going to generate butts in seats? Him being vaguely linked to her also imo won't generate interest.
@Gemini

There is a group of fans who feel exactly the same way about Luke as well and it wont be worth watching if Rey isn't a Skywalker.....my response to them is the same as I would give to people who feel this way about Obi-wan.....this trilogy isn't about Obi-wan and Luke- it is about Rey....so if anyone generates butts in seats, it will be Rey, Kylo, Finn and maybe Poe.

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Post by Gemini on Mon 09 Jan 2017, 7:13 am

But the set of anthology films I'm talking about. He's just going to be same old obi wan who was already established in 2 trilogies?

From a creative and monetary standpoint. That's box office suicide.

The point of prequels is to broaden the characters backstory not show you no changes or hidden secrets in the backstory.

Also this whole "scandal" thing in their backstory Dissociative Disorder.


What could it be? How can he be a saint if there's a scandal there which Pablo doesn't deny


Last edited by Gemini on Mon 09 Jan 2017, 7:18 am; edited 2 times in total
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Post by panki on Mon 09 Jan 2017, 7:17 am

@Gemini wrote:But the set of anthology films I'm talking about. He's just going to be same old obi wan who was already established in 2 trilogies?

From a creative and monetary standpoint. That's box office suicide.

The point of prequels is to broaden the characters backstory not show you no changes
@Gemini

I think the story is getting broad enough with the introduction of new characters....by connecting everyone to old characters, you're narrowing the galaxy...not broadening it. I don't see it being suicidal from any angle...the galaxy needs to be broader....and new characters need to be introduced....not that same old characters are the father or grandfather of same old characters.....that is boring and suicidal.

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Post by Gemini on Mon 09 Jan 2017, 7:19 am

@panki wrote:
@Gemini wrote:But the set of anthology films I'm talking about. He's just going to be same old obi wan who was already established in 2 trilogies?

From a creative and monetary standpoint. That's box office suicide.

The point of prequels is to broaden the characters backstory not show you no changes
@Gemini

I think the story is getting broad enough with the introduction of new characters....by connecting everyone to old characters, you're narrowing the galaxy...not broadening it. I don't see it being suicidal from any angle...the galaxy needs to be broader....and new characters need to be introduced....not that same old characters are the father or grandfather of same old characters.....that is boring and suicidal.
@panki

So what about this hidden secret in their backstory and scandal in the backstory which has been hinted at by Pablo and official Star Wars?

Scandalous linked with the words obi wan do not suggest that he is and always has been pure and saintlinke. It suggests the complete opposite about his character and that is from official sources.

It's also suggesting that there is some new material they are planning and writing for future stories. The backstory is something we have not seen yet and it seems to be something soon to be very current in the canon

The question is why now of all times?

Well if this scandolus secret has anything to do with rey, this is why they are doing it now and not years ago. Or years and years into the future
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Post by panki on Mon 09 Jan 2017, 7:28 am

@Gemini wrote:
@panki wrote:
@Gemini wrote:But the set of anthology films I'm talking about. He's just going to be same old obi wan who was already established in 2 trilogies?

From a creative and monetary standpoint. That's box office suicide.

The point of prequels is to broaden the characters backstory not show you no changes
@Gemini

I think the story is getting broad enough with the introduction of new characters....by connecting everyone to old characters, you're narrowing the galaxy...not broadening it. I don't see it being suicidal from any angle...the galaxy needs to be broader....and new characters need to be introduced....not that same old characters are the father or grandfather of same old characters.....that is boring and suicidal.
@panki

So what about this hidden secret in their backstory and scandal in the backstory which has been hinted at by Pablo and official Star Wars?

Scandalous linked with the words obi wan do not suggest that he is and always has been pure and saintlinke. It suggests the complete opposite about his character and that is from official sources.
@Gemini

I remember that PH responded to someone's tweet asking if Obi-wan and Satine had a child during the clone wars....all the said was that would be scandalous.

He never mentioned there was a backstory or a scandal. That is reading too much into his words....what he is saying could simply mean that the very idea of them having a child is scandalous i.e. he is dismissing the possibility.





I

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Post by Gemini on Mon 09 Jan 2017, 7:31 am

@panki wrote:
@Gemini wrote:
@panki wrote:
@Gemini wrote:But the set of anthology films I'm talking about. He's just going to be same old obi wan who was already established in 2 trilogies?

From a creative and monetary standpoint. That's box office suicide.

The point of prequels is to broaden the characters backstory not show you no changes
@Gemini

I think the story is getting broad enough with the introduction of new characters....by connecting everyone to old characters, you're narrowing the galaxy...not broadening it. I don't see it being suicidal from any angle...the galaxy needs to be broader....and new characters need to be introduced....not that same old characters are the father or grandfather of same old characters.....that is boring and suicidal.
@panki

So what about this hidden secret in their backstory and scandal in the backstory which has been hinted at by Pablo and official Star Wars?

Scandalous linked with the words obi wan do not suggest that he is and always has been pure and saintlinke. It suggests the complete opposite about his character and that is from official sources.
@Gemini

I remember that PH responded to someone's tweet asking if Obi-wan and Satine had a child during the clone wars....all the said was that would be scandalous.

He never mentioned there was a backstory or a scandal. That is reading too much into his words....what he is saying could simply mean that the very idea of them having a child is scandalous i.e. he is dismissing the possibility.





I
@panki

He had a chain of emails with filoni about the scandalous backstory of obi wan and satine. When asked about these emails, he did not deny their existence. He said they had not been published. Then when pushed further I think he said he couldn't discuss future content (I think, if I remember)

Then this tweet "that would be scandalous" actually relates to that email chain. The person asks if there was a secret child. His choice of words actually imo suggest quite a lot.

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Post by panki on Mon 09 Jan 2017, 7:42 am

@Gemini wrote:
@panki wrote:
@Gemini wrote:
@panki wrote:
@Gemini wrote:But the set of anthology films I'm talking about. He's just going to be same old obi wan who was already established in 2 trilogies?

From a creative and monetary standpoint. That's box office suicide.

The point of prequels is to broaden the characters backstory not show you no changes
@Gemini

I think the story is getting broad enough with the introduction of new characters....by connecting everyone to old characters, you're narrowing the galaxy...not broadening it. I don't see it being suicidal from any angle...the galaxy needs to be broader....and new characters need to be introduced....not that same old characters are the father or grandfather of same old characters.....that is boring and suicidal.
@panki

So what about this hidden secret in their backstory and scandal in the backstory which has been hinted at by Pablo and official Star Wars?

Scandalous linked with the words obi wan do not suggest that he is and always has been pure and saintlinke. It suggests the complete opposite about his character and that is from official sources.
@Gemini

I remember that PH responded to someone's tweet asking if Obi-wan and Satine had a child during the clone wars....all the said was that would be scandalous.

He never mentioned there was a backstory or a scandal. That is reading too much into his words....what he is saying could simply mean that the very idea of them having a child is scandalous i.e. he is dismissing the possibility.





I
@panki

He had a chain of emails with filoni about the scandalous backstory of obi wan and satine. When asked about these emails, he did not deny their existence. He said they had not been published. Then when pushed further I think he said he couldn't discuss future content (I think, if I remember)

Then this tweet "that would be scandalous" actually relates to that email chain. The person asks if there was a secret child. His choice of words actually imo suggest quite a lot.


@Gemini

I agree there was an email chain but they never specified that the scandal was set during the clone wars.....it could have even been a flirtation between a teenage padawan and a future ruler of Mandalore, forbidden teenage love frowned upon by both the jedi who shunned attachments and the Mandalorians who weren't jedi-friendly....it doesn't necessarily mean a fling and pregnancy....not exactly a family friendly message.

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Post by spacebaby45678 on Mon 09 Jan 2017, 8:12 am

Once again, in the end it does not matter, Korkie Kenobi yes or no.... or Rey Random sure... I am happy either way at this point.

But I also love analyzing visual storytelling when it comes to GL's creations how does he express parentage in images... for Anakin it was this moment, when Sidious/Palps tells him the story of Plagues the Wise....

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The Star Wars Heresies: Interpreting the Themes, Symbols and Philosophies of Episodes I, II and III

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The image of the opera is a representation of sperm & egg

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To me this is obviously focused on Father/Male descent

Now the same thing happens in The Clone Wars, when we see Korkie & Satine together, you see her touch him but in the background there is a fish tank with fish... Fish? Yes, this is a symbol of fertility and the "female parts" or Vesica Pices , before Christianity , for me the visual similarities between the Opera scene and Satine's apartment scene are striking.

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Vulva shape and symbolism[edit]

The association of the Vesica Piscis with the Yoni is important and its mention on this page and on the Aureola page should not be deleted by vandals who like to determine for other people what is relevant and what is not.

Just a few references:

"The sheela-na-gig is a naked woman...displaying her vulva, which is shown as a vesica piscis." Barbara Walker - The Woman's Encyclopedia of Myths and Secrets (Harper San Francisco, 1983)
"The vesica, or central area of the interlocked circles, was treated not only with reverence but as a sacred entity. It was an area from which so much else, geometrically, could be created. With their knowledge of the macro-cosmos, it was not lost on our ancestors that the shape was not dissimilar to that of the female vulva, the origins of intelligent form -the origins of all of us. It thus represented the geometry of life." Kevin L. Gest - The Secrets of Solomon's Temple (ISBN 0853182566)
"The Vesica Piscis. Two interlocking circles form the Yoni or Vulva of the Goddess." Kathy Jones - The Goddess in Glastonbury (1990)
"As the joining together of two circles of equal radii, creating a third intersecting area that is symbolic of the vulva and the womb, the vesica piscis is one of the fundamental symbols of sacred geometry, and the origin, as well, of the Tree of Life of the Kabbala." Margaret Starbird - Magdalene's Lost Legacy, Symbolic Numbers & Sacred Union
"The middle section of the Vesica Piscis is called a mandorla, an almond shape that was seen to be the place of birth, the sacred yoni or vulva. This vulva shape is an ancient motif pointing to the Mother Goddess." Constance S. Rodriguez PhD, LCSW - Sacred Portals, Pathways to the Self (ISBN 9781403375926)


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk%3AVesica_piscis


Does it mean, that Satine & Obi are Korkies bio parents? Who knows SG can set it up that way or change their mind, they will do what Disney thinks is the most profitable.
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Post by panki on Mon 09 Jan 2017, 8:58 am

@spacebaby45678

The book you're referring to is not the canon interpretation of squid lake and while it is an interesting observation, it is only one interpretation of the scene.....people have seen all sorts of things in that Squid Lake scene including Plageuis, Snoke and even Palpatine shooting force lightning..... even Vader's helmet has been spotted in that same scene foreshadowing Anakin's descent to the dark side.

http://screenrant.com/star-wars-easter-eggs-hidden-cameos-secrets/

ARCHIVE: Rey's Lineage Discussion II - 2 - Page 38 Star-Wars-Revenge-Sith-Opera-Vader-Easter-Egg

Similarly, the fish tank in the background where Satine is seated could just be a fish tank....or it could represent anything from femininity, priesthood, royalty, fertility, barriers one must face, a repellent of the evil eye, the bringer of knowledge, offerings to the Gods or reincarnation.....so many diverse meanings- and most have nothing to do with fertility and secret children....the way I see it, Satine is about to face a barrier in the form of Pre Vizsla and Maul, and lose her life in the process.

I believe Disney/LF will not ruin Obi-wan by giving him some secret child outside wedlock, when he has been set up as the spiritual guide of the Skywalker family and the ultimate upholder of jedi values.

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Post by spacebaby45678 on Mon 09 Jan 2017, 9:40 am

After reading this, I think Rey Palpatine has a good shot.... affraid


This is taken from Page 42 of the Making of Revenge of the Sith book, which contains storyline and dialogue from George Lucas' rough draft of the script....

"On Coruscant, PALPATINE completes his seduction of ANAKIN, who at first refuses to go over to the dark side-- until the Chancellor makes a startling confession:"

DARTH SIDIOUS-- "I have waited all these years for you to fulfill your destiny... I arranged for your conception. I used the power of the Force to will the midichlorians to start the cell divisions that created you."

ANAKIN-- "I don't believe you."

DARTH SIDIOUS-- "Ahhh, but you know it's true. When you clear your mind, you will sense the truth. you could almost think of me as your father."

ANAKIN-- "That's impossible!"

DARTH SIDIOUS-- "Nevertheless, you must decide."

Later this dialogue was cut, as you can see if you read on the second column, about halfway down on Page 60. It simply states this there....

"The dialogue indicating that PALPATINE is responsible for ANAKIN'S creation has been cut."

I'm not sure why, but Lucas decided that he didn't want Palpatine to be Anakin's father, as many have been speculating on for months here on the forum. Personally, I think this dialogue should have been kept.


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Post by Gemini on Mon 09 Jan 2017, 9:49 am

@panki wrote:
@Gemini wrote:
@panki wrote:
@Gemini wrote:
@panki wrote:
@Gemini wrote:But the set of anthology films I'm talking about. He's just going to be same old obi wan who was already established in 2 trilogies?

From a creative and monetary standpoint. That's box office suicide.

The point of prequels is to broaden the characters backstory not show you no changes
@Gemini

I think the story is getting broad enough with the introduction of new characters....by connecting everyone to old characters, you're narrowing the galaxy...not broadening it. I don't see it being suicidal from any angle...the galaxy needs to be broader....and new characters need to be introduced....not that same old characters are the father or grandfather of same old characters.....that is boring and suicidal.
@panki

So what about this hidden secret in their backstory and scandal in the backstory which has been hinted at by Pablo and official Star Wars?

Scandalous linked with the words obi wan do not suggest that he is and always has been pure and saintlinke. It suggests the complete opposite about his character and that is from official sources.
@Gemini

I remember that PH responded to someone's tweet asking if Obi-wan and Satine had a child during the clone wars....all the said was that would be scandalous.

He never mentioned there was a backstory or a scandal. That is reading too much into his words....what he is saying could simply mean that the very idea of them having a child is scandalous i.e. he is dismissing the possibility.





I
@panki

He had a chain of emails with filoni about the scandalous backstory of obi wan and satine. When asked about these emails, he did not deny their existence. He said they had not been published. Then when pushed further I think he said he couldn't discuss future content (I think, if I remember)

Then this tweet "that would be scandalous" actually relates to that email chain. The person asks if there was a secret child. His choice of words actually imo suggest quite a lot.


@Gemini

I agree there was an email chain but they never specified that the scandal was set during the clone wars.....it could have even been a flirtation between a teenage padawan and a future ruler of Mandalore, forbidden teenage love frowned upon by both the jedi who shunned attachments and the Mandalorians who weren't jedi-friendly....it doesn't necessarily mean a fling and pregnancy....not exactly a family friendly message.
@panki

Ah I see what you mean

I just assumed that by saying back story it indicates prior to the clone wars

I can't see how it's after or during?

It's not family friendly for Vader to bisect someone he's force holding to the ceiling or for kylo to fall in love with rey but hey it happens in Star Wars
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Post by panki on Mon 09 Jan 2017, 10:20 am

@Gemini wrote:
@panki

Ah I see what you mean

I just assumed that by saying back story it indicates prior to the clone  wars

I can't see how it's after or during?

It's not family friendly for Vader to bisect someone he's force holding to the ceiling or for kylo to fall in love with rey but hey it happens in Star Wars
@Gemini


Obi-wan was already sitting on the jedi council and had taken an oath to Qui Gon to care for Anakin a decade before the Clone Wars started...I don't see him even considering breaking his oath for a quick secret affair with Duchess Satine while he shuttles between Coruscant, Mandalore and other parts of the galaxy.

Let us analyse his words to her as she was dying-  "Had you said the word, I would have left the Jedi Order." He was ready to break his vow for her but he wanted her to ask him....which means a sad unconsumated love- something that could have been but never was.

One can argue that Obi-wan had a physical relationship with Satine with no strings attached....but is that really how one would like Obi-wan depicted? Obi-wan always put the feelings of others over his, sacrificing his very life for the greater good....as if he would not have tried to ascertain Satine's feelings for him before sleeping with her so as to not cause hurt. He definitely would have found out how she felt....the very fact that she had to tell him as she died meant it was never discussed.

As for Vader's killing spree, RO was openly supposed to be a dark gritty war movie so no secret there....and we don't know Kylo's actual motives so if it turns out he is actually a good guy, then reylo is pretty family friendly as well and I doubt we're going to see Rey and Kylo doing anything R rated on the big screen even if a romance happens.....Obi-wan and Satine appeared in an animation on TV viewed by kids and adults as well....definitely not meant to be the same audience as RO.

@spacebaby45678 wrote:After reading this, I think Rey Palpatine has a good shot....  affraid


This is taken from Page 42 of the Making of Revenge of the Sith book, which contains storyline and dialogue from George Lucas' rough draft of the script....

"On Coruscant, PALPATINE completes his seduction of ANAKIN, who at first refuses to go over to the dark side-- until the Chancellor makes a startling confession:"

DARTH SIDIOUS-- "I have waited all these years for you to fulfill your destiny... I arranged for your conception. I used the power of the Force to will the midichlorians to start the cell divisions that created you."

ANAKIN-- "I don't believe you."

DARTH SIDIOUS-- "Ahhh, but you know it's true. When you clear your mind, you will sense the truth. you could almost think of me as your father."

ANAKIN-- "That's impossible!"

DARTH SIDIOUS-- "Nevertheless, you must decide."

Later this dialogue was cut, as you can see if you read on the second column, about halfway down on Page 60. It simply states this there....

"The dialogue indicating that PALPATINE is responsible for ANAKIN'S creation has been cut."

I'm not sure why, but Lucas decided that he didn't want Palpatine to be Anakin's father, as many have been speculating on for months here on the forum. Personally, I think this dialogue should have been kept.



GL could have removed those lines for the sake of brevity in the movie....however, if we refer to two books, we can get clarity on this matter....and see that though it was removed from the rough script, the idea continued both in canon and legends.

The first is the legends book- Book of Sith (the contents have been brought into canon though the book is part of legends).... there is a whole Chapter on how Plagueis influenced the midichlorians to create life.... in the margins, Palps mentions that Plagueis did the research for this experiment but he was happy to learn and benefit from it....this means he had access to his master's research in his lifetime.

The second book is the canon novel Tarkin where it is said-

The room’s excavation and restoration had been carried out by machines under the supervision of 11-4D. Even Vader was unaware of the shrine’s existence. But it was here that they would one day work together the way Sidious and Plagueis had to coax from the dark side its final secrets.

This indicated Sidious and Plagueis worked on dark side experiments and rituals together in canon.

So if we read these two works together, Plagueis might have come up with the idea of creating life using midichlorians....but Sidious helped him in the process as well.....so he wasn't lying when he told Anakin (the result of the experiment) that he was a type of father to him....both Plagueis and Sidious could consider themselves the fathers of Anakin.

I hope it helps.

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Post by spacebaby45678 on Mon 09 Jan 2017, 11:01 am

@panki

helps what? the point is that the image of sperm go along with speaking about parentage, symbols help inform the narrative or sometimes give clues to the narrative. That is all, if Sidious considers himself Anakin's Father ( in some form) let's just throw Rey Palpatine out the window... I will not ship blood cousins or adopted cousins...
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Post by panki on Mon 09 Jan 2017, 4:30 pm

@spacebaby45678 wrote:@panki

helps what? the point is that the image of sperm go along with speaking about parentage, symbols help inform the narrative or sometimes give clues to the narrative.  That is all, if Sidious considers himself Anakin's Father ( in some form) let's just throw Rey Palpatine out the window... I will not ship blood cousins or adopted cousins...
@spacebaby45678

I was merely clarifying your query regarding a deleted dialogue from ROTS, and how it continued to remain relevant when one reads other SW material.

I think I have also pointed out that the symbols that can be perceived as signs of eggs, sperm and fertility can also mean many many other things like priesthood, royalty, barriers one must face, a repellent of the evil eye, the bringer of knowledge, offerings to the Gods or reincarnation....or, like in the case of Squid Lake, Plagueis, Sidious shooting force lightning, Vader's mask etc......or maybe a fish tank is just a fish tank. There is a whole reddit page dedicated to the various things people see in the tank with screenshots.....that itself shows the range of things people see from the same single shot....and they all make narrative sense keeping in mind the events of the OT and PT.

https://www.reddit.com/r/FanTheories/comments/3ypzda/squid_lake_theory_hidden_imagery_within_star_wars/

Now regarding Sidious considering himself Palpatine's father....I think there is a difference between creating a child through sith alchemy and actual flesh and blood......the two books i.e. Tarkin and Book of Sith refer to the use of dark magic.....Palpatine didn't nip across to Tatooine and sleep with Shmi to produce Anakin.

The best analogy to Anakin-Palpatine's relationship is the relationship between Truman and Christof in The Truman Show.... Truman is neither legally or biologically the son of Christof but Christof has been both a parent and a torturer to him.....shaping his destiny from a young age as he sees fit and being ready to even hurt and kill him where necessary.....a father figure- yes. A biological or adoptive parent- no.


ARCHIVE: Rey's Lineage Discussion II - 2 - Page 38 Hqdefault

Now that I think about it- Christof gives off Palpatine vibes.
ARCHIVE: Rey's Lineage Discussion II - 2 - Page 38 Wpid-unnamed-5

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Post by Gemini on Mon 09 Jan 2017, 4:42 pm

Oh Jim Carey!
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Post by spacebaby45678 on Mon 09 Jan 2017, 5:56 pm

You can discover what George means, it is not all a mystery, and I am not responsible for some peoples wrong interpretations

The Birds & the Bees Star Wars style, what Ring comp will tell you,

All of these things happen simultaneously during the run time of the PT & OT, AOTC, ROTS, ROTJ EMPIRE, the middle and the end..

Han & Leia get horny
Palps tells Anakin about the manipulation of life ( father )
Obi tells Luke why he lied about his father ( D arth )
Obi is on Kamino ( manipulation of life by cloning )



ARCHIVE: Rey's Lineage Discussion II - 2 - Page 38 Tumblr_o7jio26XZq1v3o2r3o1_540

So yes the Opera in ROTS is about sperm/life/midchlorians/Palps/Plaguis

the majority of children watching it will not know that is sperm, it is symbolic of it...

Does that mean Satine & the Fish represent motherhood? Time will tell
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Post by panki on Mon 09 Jan 2017, 7:05 pm

@spacebaby45678

1. Unless LF confirms your interpretation officially, I don't see how you can just say other people's interpretation is wrong.

2. I would not consider a non-official book on SW's interpretation of the opera scene claiming some hidden reference to sperm as canon...also, if there is any doubt regarding the context, we just need to look at the soundtrack of ROTS where the song playing in the background is called- Palpatine's Teachings. He is not teaching Anakin about the birds and the bees- he is talking about Darth Plagueis and the Sith's powers....and preparing Anakin for his future as Darth Vader. So I would think the Easter egg of Vader's helmet appearing in the opera scene as a more canon interpretation and this is further corroborated by considering a similar vision appears in the Mortis trilogy of TCW.

ARCHIVE: Rey's Lineage Discussion II - 2 - Page 38 Vlcsnap-2010-07-20-18h27m48s45

ARCHIVE: Rey's Lineage Discussion II - 2 - Page 38 CzEAvgiXAAEHdAJ


3. As I have said before, I can interpret the fish tank behind Satine to represent her being a royal as well as the troubles she faced from Maul and Pre Vizsla.... and my assertion would be backed by the events that took place shortly after where she was imprisoned and killed.

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Post by spacebaby45678 on Tue 10 Jan 2017, 4:05 am

Symbols do shift their meanings depending on the context they are used in. “A chain”, for example, may stand for “union” as well as “imprisonment”. Thus, symbolic meaning of an object or an action is understood by when, where and how it is used. It also depends on who reads them.


The context of the opera conversation is the manipulation of life... at the same time in ESB, Han & Leia represent the beginning of a new life (Ben Solo) the old fashioned natural way. In AOTC, it is the manipulation of life on Kamino by cloning, and in both ROTS & ROTJ it is a discussion of Father's in a sense so you now have layered context to confirm the symbol.... but anyone can think what they want it is a free universe....

Ultimately I don't know if Satine is Rey's grandmother, or if SG will take that route....
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