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Post by Darth_Awakened on Wed 07 Sep 2016, 1:52 pm

@ISeeAnIsland wrote:
Kessel89 wrote:@ISeeAnIsland- I see the situation a lot like you do. I don't think Kylo is brainwashed. I don't think he's fully innocent anymore. I think he knows what he's doing, including killing Han, but I think his fall (and why he continues to make terrible choices) will be much more nuanced than just him just wanting to be like Vader.

I think Ben was initially a victim (a target like JJ said). I think he was manipulated and his backstory will likely be portrayed in a sympathetic light in Episode VIII. However,  I think his anger and resentment likely played a role in him starting down a bad path, making bad choices. He seems to think he's doing the right thing. It really strikes me that he didn't want to kill Han, but he seemed to think he had to in order to accomplish his goal, whatever it is. Also,  I don't think Kylo would be as upset as he clearly was if  killing Han was solely so he could become more powerful for power's sake.

I think his initial motivation for starting on his current path will be sympathetic, but it's different now. I'm really curious about how the jedi temple massacre happened because I think it was pivotal and something climatic may have proceeded it, like the fellow padawans' reaction to the Vader reveal or some other occurrence.

I think Kylo needs to come to terms with his choices and realize that he is not going down the right path. Once he's able to do this, he can begin making  the right choices.
@Kessel89

Exactly. And on the bolded, if we get any glimpse of a pre-fall Ben Solo, I fully expect him to have a temper/be prone to fits, and I also expect there to be a bit of that sense of entitlement/arrogance that we saw glimpses of. Those traits don't make him a "bad" person, but they could have made him vulnerable to Snoke's manipulations and control....contributing to leading him where he ended up.
@ISeeAnIsland

I agree with it completely. There must have been something in his personality traits that made him vulnerable to Snoke, besides the feeling of the abandonment.
That sort of weakness was most probably manipulated and controlled.

To mirror him with Rey - I think that the desperate search for belonging also played a part in all of this. While Rey is more patient and more hopeful which are definitely hers personal traits, and her feeling of abandonment is concrete, Kylo s feeling is more on an abstract level.
Having a family - but still feeling that there isn t one for you.

EDIT: And one important point as well: Rey has not yet face the people who abandoned her - she has not been yet on the situation of "killing her Han"
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Post by vaderito on Wed 07 Sep 2016, 2:14 pm

To me, the most important thing is that he and Anakin are at the exact the same point but with some huge differences:

Anakin end of Pt 3 of 3 Parter, Kylo end of Pt 1 of 3 Parter

Anakin half machine, Kylo in one piece

Anakin lost his love, Kylo falls in love

Anakin has no one but Palpatine, Kylo has people who care about him and, more importantly, who he cares about

Artistically speaking, great job on de-aging AD:

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Post by SanghaRen on Wed 07 Sep 2016, 3:03 pm

I know this is not the right thread for it - not even sure which one is - but @vaderito mentions Kylo in one piece and I just saw pics of Adam Driver very much enjoying himself on the set of his new shoot with Daniel Craig. His left arm is covered by a green glove and in front of it is a prosthetic limb - no hand. And my first reaction was "He won't have that in 2 movies, Kylo has both his hands!". Yeah, I know it's no proof but still it momentarily raised my hope that Kylo did not get the Skywalker special.
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Post by snufkin on Wed 07 Sep 2016, 8:54 pm

@SoloSideCousin wrote:

Kessel89 wrote:@ISeeAnIsland- I see the situation a lot like you do. I don't think Kylo is brainwashed. I don't think he's fully innocent anymore. I think he knows what he's doing, including killing Han, but I think his fall (and why he continues to make terrible choices) will be much more nuanced than just him just wanting to be like Vader.

I think Ben was initially a victim (a target like JJ said). I think he was manipulated and his backstory will likely be portrayed in a sympathetic light in Episode VIII. However,  I think his anger and resentment likely played a role in him starting down a bad path, making bad choices. He seems to think he's doing the right thing. It really strikes me that he didn't want to kill Han, but he seemed to think he had to in order to accomplish his goal, whatever it is. Also,  I don't think Kylo would be as upset as he clearly was if  killing Han was solely so he could become more powerful for power's sake.

I think his initial motivation for starting on his current path will be sympathetic, but it's different now. I'm really curious about how the jedi temple massacre happened because I think it was pivotal and something climatic may have proceeded it, like the fellow padawans' reaction to the Vader reveal or some other occurence.

I think Kylo needs to come to terms with his choices and realize that he is not going down the right path. Once he's able to do this, he can begin making  the right choices.
@Kessel89

Yes, he went through with it, but I really think he has been trying to avoid Han for years.  I think this order is long-standing.  Also, if you watch the movie closely, he slows down near Han, and then turns from him and really speeds up as he walks away.  He is also shaken when Han calls out to him.  He did not expect that IMO.  This all indicates a lack of desire to take on his father, as does the puppy-eyed, non-masked Adam Driver performance when Han Solo is revealed to be his father and the begging of Vader to show him the power of the darkness after he gets the renewed order.  Further, he does act a little cult-victim with all that "The Supreme Leader is wise" business, until Han starts to break through to him.  I think he could have some programming/manipulation/something going on there, but he's struggling back and forth with it.  I actually believe, based on the acting, that he was truly considering going with his father, and something in him pulled him (dying sun) the other way.  Even the "I know what I have to do, but I don't think I have the strength to do it" tells you that he doesn't want to do it.  So what you and @Darth Dingbat are saying is crucial.  There has to be a *reason* he is making this awful choice.  There has to be some overriding goal.  And considering how zealous his mother acts in the new books, saying things like "I would burn the galaxy if I thought it was right" could be foreshadowing that we have a "son like mother" situation.  I think @Darth Dingbat and I might see eye to eye on some theories of why he felt he must make such terrible choices, but I don't need to go into those theories now.  But I completely agree that the storytellers *need to* provide us with a reason why he seems to be hell-bent to go against his own nature, which does seem to have an undying "light" at its core.

@SoloSideCousin

Other analogies I've thought about besides Patty Hearst (where it's been debated how much she was a victim of the Stockholm Syndrome vs. active participant) are Bowe Bergdahl and Chelsea Manning. Both committed acts considered to be treason because of feeling both profoundly depressed (Manning has been suicidal) about their own lives and disillusioned about the cause they were serving under.
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Post by ISeeAnIsland on Wed 07 Sep 2016, 9:23 pm

@snufkin wrote:
@SoloSideCousin wrote:

Kessel89 wrote:@ISeeAnIsland- I see the situation a lot like you do. I don't think Kylo is brainwashed. I don't think he's fully innocent anymore. I think he knows what he's doing, including killing Han, but I think his fall (and why he continues to make terrible choices) will be much more nuanced than just him just wanting to be like Vader.

I think Ben was initially a victim (a target like JJ said). I think he was manipulated and his backstory will likely be portrayed in a sympathetic light in Episode VIII. However,  I think his anger and resentment likely played a role in him starting down a bad path, making bad choices. He seems to think he's doing the right thing. It really strikes me that he didn't want to kill Han, but he seemed to think he had to in order to accomplish his goal, whatever it is. Also,  I don't think Kylo would be as upset as he clearly was if  killing Han was solely so he could become more powerful for power's sake.

I think his initial motivation for starting on his current path will be sympathetic, but it's different now. I'm really curious about how the jedi temple massacre happened because I think it was pivotal and something climatic may have proceeded it, like the fellow padawans' reaction to the Vader reveal or some other occurence.

I think Kylo needs to come to terms with his choices and realize that he is not going down the right path. Once he's able to do this, he can begin making  the right choices.
@Kessel89

Yes, he went through with it, but I really think he has been trying to avoid Han for years.  I think this order is long-standing.  Also, if you watch the movie closely, he slows down near Han, and then turns from him and really speeds up as he walks away.  He is also shaken when Han calls out to him.  He did not expect that IMO.  This all indicates a lack of desire to take on his father, as does the puppy-eyed, non-masked Adam Driver performance when Han Solo is revealed to be his father and the begging of Vader to show him the power of the darkness after he gets the renewed order.  Further, he does act a little cult-victim with all that "The Supreme Leader is wise" business, until Han starts to break through to him.  I think he could have some programming/manipulation/something going on there, but he's struggling back and forth with it.  I actually believe, based on the acting, that he was truly considering going with his father, and something in him pulled him (dying sun) the other way.  Even the "I know what I have to do, but I don't think I have the strength to do it" tells you that he doesn't want to do it.  So what you and @Darth Dingbat are saying is crucial.  There has to be a *reason* he is making this awful choice.  There has to be some overriding goal.  And considering how zealous his mother acts in the new books, saying things like "I would burn the galaxy if I thought it was right" could be foreshadowing that we have a "son like mother" situation.  I think @Darth Dingbat and I might see eye to eye on some theories of why he felt he must make such terrible choices, but I don't need to go into those theories now.  But I completely agree that the storytellers *need to* provide us with a reason why he seems to be hell-bent to go against his own nature, which does seem to have an undying "light" at its core.

@SoloSideCousin

Other analogies I've thought about besides Patty Hearst (where it's been debated how much she was a victim of the Stockholm Syndrome vs. active participant) are Bowe Bergdahl and Chelsea Manning. Both committed acts considered to be treason because of feeling both profoundly depressed (Manning has been suicidal) about their own lives and disillusioned about the cause they were serving under.
@snufkin

The Bowe Bergdahl comparison is an interesting one, given that Bergdahl was young and did something incredibly stupid to set off his chain of events--even though it was something that he thought was the right thing to do.
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Post by snufkin on Wed 07 Sep 2016, 9:26 pm

@ISeeAnIsland

I haven't listened to the Serial season about his capture, release, and trial, but this jogged my memory because he had delusions of being like Jason Bourne:

What the 'Serial' Podcast Revealed About Ex-Taliban Captive Bowe Bergdahl

In the military, "DUSTWUN" stands for "Duty Status -- Whereabouts Unknown." This title sets the scene for the question that will be the core of the entire season: Why did Bergdahl leave his post in Afghanistan in 2009?

He intended to walk to a nearby base to report problems he perceived in his unit, according to Bergdahl. "All I was seeing was basically leadership failure to the point that the lives of the guys standing next to me were literally, from what I could see, in danger of something seriously going wrong, and somebody being killed," he said.

But Bergdahl admits that he also wanted to be seen as a fictional Jason Bourne-like character. "I had this fantastic idea that I was going to prove to the world that, you know, I was the real thing," he said. "I was trying to prove to the world, to anybody who used to know me, that I was capable of, you know, being that person."

...

"I wanted to be a soldier," Bergdahl told screenwriter Mark Boal. "I wanted to be a security contractor afterwards. I wanted people to take me serious. I wanted to go into Special Forces. I wanted that adventure, I wanted that action, I wanted that moment of adrenaline, I wanted that moment of, you know, contact. Getting in gun fights, being that soldier that gets in fire fights, and goes around in armored trucks."

Boal's 25 hours of recorded interviews with Bergdahl are the heart of this season of "Serial."

The episode also reveals another side to Bergdahl's personality.

While he got along with his platoon mates, they told Koenig that there was always something different about Bergdahl, something his fellow soldiers couldn't put their finger on.

Unlike the other guys, he smoked pipes instead of cigarettes, read the entire Ranger Handbook when no one else really bothered, listened to classical music and refused to tell any dirty jokes, they said. He also brought a quirky level of intensity that was unparalleled to anyone else in his squad, sleeping without a mattress and holding a tomahawk against his chest at night, they said.

While Koenig indicated Bergdahl felt an overall frustration with his platoon's mission in Afghanistan, there were two events she highlights that ultimately contributed to pushing the soldier over his limit and leading to him leaving his outpost.

In the middle of the night, Bergdahl and his platoon mates were called to recover a disabled vehicle that had been blown up by an IED in Omna, a district center up in the mountains. What was supposed to be an eight-hour mission turned into a six-day operation of multiple IED attacks, additional disabled vehicles and, finally, a complex Taliban ambush. No one in Bergdahl's unit was hurt in the ambush and 10 Taliban members were believed to have been killed. When they returned to base, their battalion commander, Lt. Col. Clint Baker, didn't congratulate the men on surviving such a dangerous mission that he had ordered, according to Koenig. The first thing Baker reportedly said was: "What, you couldn't shave?" The men hadn't taken any razors with them.

Still frustrated by this event, Bergdahl told Boal, "It's just like, 'Are you serious? After all of that bulls***, after everything that we've gone through, we get back here and now we have to go shave the last six days' mud off our face because some jacka** who's been sitting in an air-conditioned office giving us bulls*** orders the entire time. He's got a problem with the fact that, what, we couldn't shave?'"

According to Koenig, while his other platoon mates were frustrated by the events in Omna, they seemed to shake it off more than Bergdahl.
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Post by ISeeAnIsland on Wed 07 Sep 2016, 9:32 pm

@snufkin wrote:@ISeeAnIsland

I haven't listened to the Serial season about his capture, release, and trial, but this jogged my memory because he had delusions of being like Jason Bourne:

What the 'Serial' Podcast Revealed About Ex-Taliban Captive Bowe Bergdahl

In the military, "DUSTWUN" stands for "Duty Status -- Whereabouts Unknown." This title sets the scene for the question that will be the core of the entire season: Why did Bergdahl leave his post in Afghanistan in 2009?

He intended to walk to a nearby base to report problems he perceived in his unit, according to Bergdahl. "All I was seeing was basically leadership failure to the point that the lives of the guys standing next to me were literally, from what I could see, in danger of something seriously going wrong, and somebody being killed," he said.

But Bergdahl admits that he also wanted to be seen as a fictional Jason Bourne-like character. "I had this fantastic idea that I was going to prove to the world that, you know, I was the real thing," he said. "I was trying to prove to the world, to anybody who used to know me, that I was capable of, you know, being that person."

...

"I wanted to be a soldier," Bergdahl told screenwriter Mark Boal. "I wanted to be a security contractor afterwards. I wanted people to take me serious. I wanted to go into Special Forces. I wanted that adventure, I wanted that action, I wanted that moment of adrenaline, I wanted that moment of, you know, contact. Getting in gun fights, being that soldier that gets in fire fights, and goes around in armored trucks."

Boal's 25 hours of recorded interviews with Bergdahl are the heart of this season of "Serial."

The episode also reveals another side to Bergdahl's personality.

While he got along with his platoon mates, they told Koenig that there was always something different about Bergdahl, something his fellow soldiers couldn't put their finger on.

Unlike the other guys, he smoked pipes instead of cigarettes, read the entire Ranger Handbook when no one else really bothered, listened to classical music and refused to tell any dirty jokes, they said. He also brought a quirky level of intensity that was unparalleled to anyone else in his squad, sleeping without a mattress and holding a tomahawk against his chest at night, they said.

While Koenig indicated Bergdahl felt an overall frustration with his platoon's mission in Afghanistan, there were two events she highlights that ultimately contributed to pushing the soldier over his limit and leading to him leaving his outpost.

In the middle of the night, Bergdahl and his platoon mates were called to recover a disabled vehicle that had been blown up by an IED in Omna, a district center up in the mountains. What was supposed to be an eight-hour mission turned into a six-day operation of multiple IED attacks, additional disabled vehicles and, finally, a complex Taliban ambush. No one in Bergdahl's unit was hurt in the ambush and 10 Taliban members were believed to have been killed. When they returned to base, their battalion commander, Lt. Col. Clint Baker, didn't congratulate the men on surviving such a dangerous mission that he had ordered, according to Koenig. The first thing Baker reportedly said was: "What, you couldn't shave?" The men hadn't taken any razors with them.

Still frustrated by this event, Bergdahl told Boal, "It's just like, 'Are you serious? After all of that bulls***, after everything that we've gone through, we get back here and now we have to go shave the last six days' mud off our face because some jacka** who's been sitting in an air-conditioned office giving us bulls*** orders the entire time. He's got a problem with the fact that, what, we couldn't shave?'"

According to Koenig, while his other platoon mates were frustrated by the events in Omna, they seemed to shake it off more than Bergdahl.
@snufkin

I'll admit that I only got partway through that season of Serial (it just wasn't as edge-of-your-seat compelling as the first season, and when they switched to every-other-week updates, they sort of lost me), but what you posted corresponds to the part of the season that I did get through. There were also some questions of Bowe's mental health, and it was highly questionable that he should have been out there at all.
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Post by snufkin on Wed 07 Sep 2016, 11:12 pm



WGFestival 2016: The Craft and Career of Lawrence Kasdan

Screenwriters and Scriptnotes podcast hosts John August and Craig Mazin interview Lawrence Kasdan, legendary screenwriter of THE EMPIRE STRIKES BACK, RAIDERS OF THE LOST ARK, THE BIG CHILL, THE BODYGUARD and STAR WARS: THE FORCE AWAKENS.
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Post by Lily Snape on Thu 08 Sep 2016, 1:03 am

@Irina de France wrote:
@ZioRen wrote:@Darth Dingbat

I can say nothing but that I agree with you. It's also worth it to note that falling to and remaining in the Dark Side is supposed to be easy. That's the point of it being so seductive; you have to fight to not let yourself fall into it and then it's almost impossible to get out.

And yet here's Kylo, after all these years immersed in the Dark Side and WANTING to be immersed (unlike the other Skywalkers, who fought it), still fighting the call to the light. That says a lot about his character. He doesn't belong on the Dark Side, is unhappy, is being eaten alive by it. So why is he so desperate to remain there? There has to be an answer, and something that's just about him essentially being a selfish douche doesn't quite work with that portrayal.
@ZioRen

What I think is interesting is that unlike guys like Darth Maul or Palpatine who clearly LOVED being in the Dark Side, Vader... not so much. It's not that he hated it either, but he was mostly indifferent about it. I mean, even if Padmé hadn't died in childbirth/of love/whatever the living heck that was, Palpatine would have had her killed anyway since she was pretty much the only thing that kept Anakin from being the perfect puppet. Anakin turned to the Dark Side out of love for Padmé, and to quote George Lucas, "he signed a contract with the devil, and lost". So the only option left to him was to be Palpatine's puppet, and in order to cope, he became indifferent to it all.

Edit: Weird to say, but when Vader threw Palpatine down the Ridiculously-Long-Chasm, I always had a feeling he did it mostly to save Padmé's Baby more than his Son. Sorry for this, it makes sense to me XD

Kylo, on the other hand... he still had his parents. He falls in love with Rey. Just like with Anakin, attachments are The-Thing that keep him from going full Dark. Snoke tried to have him kill his father in order to break that, but it failed. And with the theory that he might have warned his mother about SKB blowing up the Illeenium system, Snoke is not going to like it.
@Irina de France

When I saw Vader throw Palpatine down the chasm-- in the theater, in 1983, and that might be relevant-- we knew little of Padme or what had happened to her, just that "beautiful and sad" line, so I saw that as Vader protecting his son, but also himself as he should have been, which is what Luke became.
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Post by CienaRee on Thu 08 Sep 2016, 2:24 am

@Lily Snape wrote:
@Irina de France wrote:
@ZioRen wrote:@Darth Dingbat

I can say nothing but that I agree with you. It's also worth it to note that falling to and remaining in the Dark Side is supposed to be easy. That's the point of it being so seductive; you have to fight to not let yourself fall into it and then it's almost impossible to get out.

And yet here's Kylo, after all these years immersed in the Dark Side and WANTING to be immersed (unlike the other Skywalkers, who fought it), still fighting the call to the light. That says a lot about his character. He doesn't belong on the Dark Side, is unhappy, is being eaten alive by it. So why is he so desperate to remain there? There has to be an answer, and something that's just about him essentially being a selfish douche doesn't quite work with that portrayal.
@ZioRen

What I think is interesting is that unlike guys like Darth Maul or Palpatine who clearly LOVED being in the Dark Side, Vader... not so much. It's not that he hated it either, but he was mostly indifferent about it. I mean, even if Padmé hadn't died in childbirth/of love/whatever the living heck that was, Palpatine would have had her killed anyway since she was pretty much the only thing that kept Anakin from being the perfect puppet. Anakin turned to the Dark Side out of love for Padmé, and to quote George Lucas, "he signed a contract with the devil, and lost". So the only option left to him was to be Palpatine's puppet, and in order to cope, he became indifferent to it all.

Edit: Weird to say, but when Vader threw Palpatine down the Ridiculously-Long-Chasm, I always had a feeling he did it mostly to save Padmé's Baby more than his Son. Sorry for this, it makes sense to me XD

Kylo, on the other hand... he still had his parents. He falls in love with Rey. Just like with Anakin, attachments are The-Thing that keep him from going full Dark. Snoke tried to have him kill his father in order to break that, but it failed. And with the theory that he might have warned his mother about SKB blowing up the Illeenium system, Snoke is not going to like it.
@Irina de France

When I saw Vader throw Palpatine down the chasm-- in the theater, in 1983, and that might be relevant-- we knew little of Padme or what had happened to her, just that "beautiful and sad" line, so I saw that as Vader protecting his son, but also himself as he should have been, which is what Luke became.
@Lily Snape

Interesting,in the RTJ novalization what makes Vader save Luke is the fact that he was Padme's child and he couldn't let him die like Padme.But back in the OT Padme wasn't really that important which I aways saw as kind of a plot hole.I mean Luke was intersted and wanted to know more about hsi father and how he died but never asked about his mother who he also never knew?It sounded unrealistic to me.

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Post by panki on Thu 08 Sep 2016, 3:32 am

@CienaRee wrote:
@Lily Snape wrote:
@Irina de France wrote:
@ZioRen wrote:@Darth Dingbat

I can say nothing but that I agree with you. It's also worth it to note that falling to and remaining in the Dark Side is supposed to be easy. That's the point of it being so seductive; you have to fight to not let yourself fall into it and then it's almost impossible to get out.

And yet here's Kylo, after all these years immersed in the Dark Side and WANTING to be immersed (unlike the other Skywalkers, who fought it), still fighting the call to the light. That says a lot about his character. He doesn't belong on the Dark Side, is unhappy, is being eaten alive by it. So why is he so desperate to remain there? There has to be an answer, and something that's just about him essentially being a selfish douche doesn't quite work with that portrayal.
@ZioRen

What I think is interesting is that unlike guys like Darth Maul or Palpatine who clearly LOVED being in the Dark Side, Vader... not so much. It's not that he hated it either, but he was mostly indifferent about it. I mean, even if Padmé hadn't died in childbirth/of love/whatever the living heck that was, Palpatine would have had her killed anyway since she was pretty much the only thing that kept Anakin from being the perfect puppet. Anakin turned to the Dark Side out of love for Padmé, and to quote George Lucas, "he signed a contract with the devil, and lost". So the only option left to him was to be Palpatine's puppet, and in order to cope, he became indifferent to it all.

Edit: Weird to say, but when Vader threw Palpatine down the Ridiculously-Long-Chasm, I always had a feeling he did it mostly to save Padmé's Baby more than his Son. Sorry for this, it makes sense to me XD

Kylo, on the other hand... he still had his parents. He falls in love with Rey. Just like with Anakin, attachments are The-Thing that keep him from going full Dark. Snoke tried to have him kill his father in order to break that, but it failed. And with the theory that he might have warned his mother about SKB blowing up the Illeenium system, Snoke is not going to like it.
@Irina de France

When I saw Vader throw Palpatine down the chasm-- in the theater, in 1983, and that might be relevant-- we knew little of Padme or what had happened to her, just that "beautiful and sad" line, so I saw that as Vader protecting his son, but also himself as he should have been, which is what Luke became.
@Lily Snape

Interesting,in the RTJ novalization what makes Vader save Luke is the fact that he was Padme's child and he couldn't let him die like Padme.But back in the OT Padme wasn't really that important which I aways saw as kind of a plot hole.I mean Luke was intersted and wanted to know more about hsi father and how he died but never asked about his mother who he also never knew?It sounded unrealistic to me.
@CienaRee

It is funny that the only time Luke talks about his mother is in ROTJ when he asks Leia about their mother....and considering she was his twin sister, it was a strange question since Padme died shortly after their birth.

I feel female characters are given very little importance in the Skywalker clan.... Anakin grows up away from Shmi but never once thinks of checking up on her despite knowing she was a slave when he last left her.....then Padme and Leia's abilities at leadership, statecraft and espionage go completely unnoticed...... Padme has twins and first, Anakin doesn't even sense his daughter....but after he does in ROTJ, he doesn't even bother to refer to her by her first name when he is dying nor manifest in force ghost form to show he cares for her in any way....I don't blame Leia for having emotional issues! Now if they make Kylo some unredeemable villain or take the reywalker route, that will just be another way of calling poor Leia and her bloodline the lesser Skywalkers..... Mad

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Post by CienaRee on Thu 08 Sep 2016, 3:48 am

@panki wrote:
@CienaRee wrote:
@Lily Snape wrote:
@Irina de France wrote:
@ZioRen wrote:@Darth Dingbat

I can say nothing but that I agree with you. It's also worth it to note that falling to and remaining in the Dark Side is supposed to be easy. That's the point of it being so seductive; you have to fight to not let yourself fall into it and then it's almost impossible to get out.

And yet here's Kylo, after all these years immersed in the Dark Side and WANTING to be immersed (unlike the other Skywalkers, who fought it), still fighting the call to the light. That says a lot about his character. He doesn't belong on the Dark Side, is unhappy, is being eaten alive by it. So why is he so desperate to remain there? There has to be an answer, and something that's just about him essentially being a selfish douche doesn't quite work with that portrayal.
@ZioRen

What I think is interesting is that unlike guys like Darth Maul or Palpatine who clearly LOVED being in the Dark Side, Vader... not so much. It's not that he hated it either, but he was mostly indifferent about it. I mean, even if Padmé hadn't died in childbirth/of love/whatever the living heck that was, Palpatine would have had her killed anyway since she was pretty much the only thing that kept Anakin from being the perfect puppet. Anakin turned to the Dark Side out of love for Padmé, and to quote George Lucas, "he signed a contract with the devil, and lost". So the only option left to him was to be Palpatine's puppet, and in order to cope, he became indifferent to it all.

Edit: Weird to say, but when Vader threw Palpatine down the Ridiculously-Long-Chasm, I always had a feeling he did it mostly to save Padmé's Baby more than his Son. Sorry for this, it makes sense to me XD

Kylo, on the other hand... he still had his parents. He falls in love with Rey. Just like with Anakin, attachments are The-Thing that keep him from going full Dark. Snoke tried to have him kill his father in order to break that, but it failed. And with the theory that he might have warned his mother about SKB blowing up the Illeenium system, Snoke is not going to like it.
@Irina de France

When I saw Vader throw Palpatine down the chasm-- in the theater, in 1983, and that might be relevant-- we knew little of Padme or what had happened to her, just that "beautiful and sad" line, so I saw that as Vader protecting his son, but also himself as he should have been, which is what Luke became.
@Lily Snape

Interesting,in the RTJ novalization what makes Vader save Luke is the fact that he was Padme's child and he couldn't let him die like Padme.But back in the OT Padme wasn't really that important which I aways saw as kind of a plot hole.I mean Luke was intersted and wanted to know more about hsi father and how he died but never asked about his mother who he also never knew?It sounded unrealistic to me.
@CienaRee

It is funny that the only time Luke talks about his mother is in ROTJ when he asks Leia about their mother....and considering she was his twin sister, it was a strange question since Padme died shortly after their birth.

I feel female characters are given very little importance in the Skywalker clan.... Anakin grows up away from Shmi but never once thinks of checking up on her despite knowing she was a slave when he last left her.....then Padme and Leia's abilities at leadership, statecraft and espionage go completely unnoticed...... Padme has twins and first, Anakin doesn't even sense his daughter....but after he does in ROTJ, he doesn't even bother to refer to her by her first name when he is dying nor manifest in force ghost form to show he cares for her in any way....I don't blame Leia for having emotional issues! Now if they make Kylo some unredeemable villain or take the reywalker route, that will just be another way of calling poor Leia and her bloodline the lesser Skywalkers..... Mad
@panki
Right?I think this ended up being a plot hole because originally Anakin and his wife would have seperated without him knowing she was pregnant and she would have actually survived the childbirth and went to live with Leia for a while.This actually makes more sense because Leia didn't act surprised when Luke asked her about her biological mother instead telling him she died when she was very young which implies Leia was a child when her mother died.
You know sometimes I wish they'd made Kylo Luke's son.Maybe the we wouldn't have the Reywalker theory that makes absolutely no sense or the debate that Kylo's not really a Skywalker.Plus Leia's the most tortured character ever-she'd lost so much already and now she'll aways have to live with the guot that if she hadn't asked Han to bring their son home he would still be alive.But on the other hand I do like the fact that the Skywalker line is continuing through her since she was mostly treated as inferior to Luke in the OT when it came to being a Skywalker.
Seriously this family is living in some twisted cycle-the dad goes evil then later on the grandson also turns evil and if we assume tht the Galaxy would want to have Kylo murdered after finding out he's Kylo Ren then they would have to keep his identity a scret(if they're not doing that already which I think they are judging from the other materials) just like they kept their identites as Vader's children a secret.At this point some miracel has to happen for the Skywalker family not getting linched. Laughing

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Post by Rimfaxe96 on Thu 08 Sep 2016, 3:52 am

@panki wrote:It is funny that the only time Luke talks about his mother is in ROTJ when he asks Leia about their mother....and considering she was his twin sister, it was a strange question since Padme died shortly after their birth.

I feel female characters are given very little importance in the Skywalker clan.... Anakin grows up away from Shmi but never once thinks of checking up on her despite knowing she was a slave when he last left her.....then Padme and Leia's abilities at leadership, statecraft and espionage go completely unnoticed...... Padme has twins and first, Anakin doesn't even sense his daughter....but after he does in ROTJ, he doesn't even bother to refer to her by her first name when he is dying nor manifest in force ghost form to show he cares for her in any way....I don't blame Leia for having emotional issues! Now if they make Kylo some unredeemable villain or take the reywalker route, that will just be another way of calling poor Leia and her bloodline the lesser Skywalkers..... Mad
@panki

Frankly, I believe this is all because of George Lucas' not quite organized/thoughtful writing skills when it comes to relations between characters. Coming up with new stuff to add to the GFFA universe is one thing, but making all those elements interact with each other in a way that doesn't lack credibility and being interesting demands lots of skill. T'is why not everyone's a writer, even though everyone could type their own book nowadays.
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Post by Maria Antonietta on Thu 08 Sep 2016, 4:54 am

@Rimfaxe96 wrote:
@panki wrote:It is funny that the only time Luke talks about his mother is in ROTJ when he asks Leia about their mother....and considering she was his twin sister, it was a strange question since Padme died shortly after their birth.

I feel female characters are given very little importance in the Skywalker clan.... Anakin grows up away from Shmi but never once thinks of checking up on her despite knowing she was a slave when he last left her.....then Padme and Leia's abilities at leadership, statecraft and espionage go completely unnoticed...... Padme has twins and first, Anakin doesn't even sense his daughter....but after he does in ROTJ, he doesn't even bother to refer to her by her first name when he is dying nor manifest in force ghost form to show he cares for her in any way....I don't blame Leia for having emotional issues! Now if they make Kylo some unredeemable villain or take the reywalker route, that will just be another way of calling poor Leia and her bloodline the lesser Skywalkers..... Mad
@panki

Frankly, I believe this is all because of George Lucas' not quite organized/thoughtful writing skills when it comes to relations between characters. Coming up with new stuff to add to the GFFA universe is one thing, but making all those elements interact with each other in a way that doesn't lack credibility and being interesting demands lots of skill. T'is why not everyone's a writer, even though everyone could type their own book nowadays.
@Rimfaxe96

it was a big sausage feast with GL leading. everything was father/son, even the clones gave vibes of father and son relationship. Now it's different, you can feel another kind of dynamic between the heroine and the villain thanks to all the women in a leading position @ lucasfilm (if they are really going BatB)
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Post by MindAndMagic on Thu 08 Sep 2016, 10:12 am

I briefly checked out some of the other MSW podcasts this week and they all discuss the new rumour for VIII, TFA, etc. Here are some interesting quotes:

1) "The Cantina Cast" #142:

Min 23: they talk about how TFA is UNLIKE ANH in a lot of ways:

TFA gets a lot of flack for being very much ANH-like.
I wanna do an episode where we talk about how it is like... how it is not like ANH. I didn't see any...
I think there were a lot of parts that weren't very reminiscent to ANH.

Min 25: The podcasters discuss Luke's role in the future movies as we now know he's coming back in IX. They describe him as an an Obi-Wan figure, giving advice to Rey and speculate about the future of the saga:

There needs to be some finality to it cause then you need Rey and whoever else to kinda be the new... ushers of the new Jedi order when they remake those books as... you know...

There's also this interesting speculation about Palpatine and whether he knows Snoke (I don't necessarily agree, but I guess it's a possibility):

There is this whole thing with Snoke and Jakku and all of this...And the Emperor... So, if he is still orchestrating things after his death... Maybe he still had some plans for the galaxy and maybe somebody uncovered that and is going along with it.

Min 37: They discuss the new rumours for VIII: Rey's point of view; putting the pieces together; comparisons to Luke and Anakin's recurring multiple force visions; how Rey sees both the future and the past; they see the visions as Rey's introduction to the Force; no one seems to believe in Reywalker btw, they probably know it's not true

Luke's blue lightsaber has to have been there for... everything, whether it was the past or the future. That's the reason why when she touches the lightsaber, she gets this vision. Even the voices...
She couldn't have been there for all those visions and stuff.
That was basically her introduction to the Force.
She sees the vision, but has no control over it because her force abilitirs are so raw and she almost get sucked into it.

They talk about common themes in other fairytales, e.g. compare the lightsaber choosing Rey to King Arthur and Excalibur, also HP where the wand chooses the wizard; why did the lightsaber go to Rey and not Anakin's grandson; who should rightfully have it; dark vs. light, e.g. Anakin loses it when he goes to the dark side, etc.

It's not a new concept where the weapon chooses the hero.
Something in that lightsaber chose Rey.
 (even though Kylo should have had no trouble getting it)

Min. 47: The team discusses some TFA quotes:
-Finn's defection/backstory; they knew Rey was the awakeing as they had info before the release they couldn't share; there's no real evidence that Finn is FS
-Rey's memories:

Rey is 19. Do you think she remembers much from when she was 5 years old?
So these people that tell me that Rey had to remember who her parents are and all this, like that's the biggest joke I've ever heard.
I think she remembers the trauma of what happened and that it was her family, but she doesn't know exactly the details or maybe she just put it in a...repressed memory.

-The ''It's just us now. HS can't save you'' quote: they compare Kylo to a wounded animal in that scene; there's discussion of Ben's childhood as a kid struggling with his demons, wanting to be different, how he sees his father, why Anakin would be the real hero to him cause he related to his grandfather as FS, etc.

2) "Rebel Girrrl" Ep. 45:

They call Luke, Rey, Kylo "huge, central characters in this plot'' (the Anch-To plot) and then go on to discuss the force vision. Some highlights:
-there is a reason they put this in the teaser
-Bloodline and Rey's role; we see everything through her eyes
-Rey might not have been there when it happened, but now it's ''fueling her journey''
-"She is going to have feelings about it"
-''It's the catalyst that started everything.'' (the vision)
-''It's crazy to think that in Bloodline, 6 years before TFA, Luke and Kylo were still ''cool'', so to speak.''
''And then something this bad and drastic happens and just changes everything in a second.
''It's really interesting.''
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Post by Maria Antonietta on Thu 08 Sep 2016, 10:23 am

Queen of the Knights wrote:I briefly checked out some of the other MSW podcasts this week and they all discuss the new rumour for VIII, TFA, etc. Here are some interesting quotes:

1) "The Cantina Cast" #142:

Min 23: they talk about how TFA is UNLIKE ANH in a lot of ways:

TFA gets a lot of flack for being very much ANH-like.
I wanna do an episode where we talk about how it is like... how it is not like ANH. I didn't see any...
I think there were a lot of parts that weren't very reminiscent to ANH.

Min 25: The podcasters discuss Luke's role in the future movies as we now know he's coming back in IX. They describe him as an an Obi-Wan figure, giving advice to Rey and speculate about the future of the saga:

There needs to be some finality to it cause then you need Rey and whoever else to kinda be the new... ushers of the new Jedi order when they remake those books as... you know...

There's also this interesting speculation about Palpatine and whether he knows Snoke (I don't necessarily agree, but I guess it's a possibility):

There is this whole thing with Snoke and Jakku and all of this...And the Emperor... So, if he is still orchestrating things after his death... Maybe he still had some plans for the galaxy and maybe somebody uncovered that and is going along with it.

Min 37: They discuss the new rumours for VIII: Rey's point of view; putting the pieces together; comparisons to Luke and Anakin's recurring multiple force visions; how Rey sees both the future and the past; they see the visions as Rey's introduction to the Force; no one seems to believe in Reywalker btw, they probably know it's not true

Luke's blue lightsaber has to have been there for... everything, whether it was the past or the future. That's the reason why when she touches the lightsaber, she gets this vision. Even the voices...
She couldn't have been there for all those visions and stuff.
That was basically her introduction to the Force.
She sees the vision, but has no control over it because her force abilitirs are so raw and she almost get sucked into it.

They talk about common themes in other fairytales, e.g. compare the lightsaber choosing Rey to King Arthur and Excalibur, also HP where the wand chooses the wizard; why did the lightsaber go to Rey and not Anakin's grandson; who should rightfully have it; dark vs. light, e.g. Anakin loses it when he goes to the dark side, etc.

It's not a new concept where the weapon chooses the hero.
Something in that lightsaber chose Rey.
 (even though Kylo should have had no trouble getting it)

Min. 47: The team discusses some TFA quotes:
-Finn's defection/backstory; they knew Rey was the awakeing as they had info before the release they couldn't share; there's no real evidence that Finn is FS
-Rey's memories:

Rey is 19. Do you think she remembers much from when she was 5 years old?
So these people that tell me that Rey had to remember who her parents are and all this, like that's the biggest joke I've ever heard.
I think she remembers the trauma of what happened and that it was her family, but she doesn't know exactly the details or maybe she just put it in a...repressed memory.

-The ''It's just us now. HS can't save you'' quote: they compare Kylo to a wounded animal in that scene; there's discussion of Ben's childhood as a kid struggling with his demons, wanting to be different, how he sees his father, why Anakin would be the real hero to him cause he related to his grandfather as FS, etc.

2) "Rebel Girrrl" Ep. 45:

They call Luke, Rey, Kylo "huge, central characters in this plot'' (the Anch-To plot) and then go on to discuss the force vision. Some highlights:
-there is a reason they put this in the teaser
-Bloodline and Rey's role; we see everything through her eyes
-Rey might not have been there when it happened, but now it's ''fueling her journey''
-"She is going to have feelings about it"
-''It's the catalyst that started everything.'' (the vision)
-''It's crazy to think that in Bloodline, 6 years before TFA, Luke and Kylo were still ''cool'', so to speak.''
''And then something this bad and drastic happens and just changes everything in a second.
''It's really interesting.''
@Queen of the Knights

really interesting!!!!
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Post by Darth_Awakened on Thu 08 Sep 2016, 10:25 am

@Queen of the Knights

On Snoke and Palpatine possible connection:
I think those guys red Aftermath: The Life Debt. That s how they got the idea I suspect.
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Post by Darth Dingbat on Thu 08 Sep 2016, 11:03 am

I must admit it amuses me a bit when people talk about the lightsaber choosing Rey and rejecting Kylo because he's unworthy.

I don't think that lightsaber can afford to get too hoity-toity about worthiness, with the toddler skeletons in its own closet...
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Post by Guest on Thu 08 Sep 2016, 11:37 am

@Darth Dingbat wrote:I must admit it amuses me a bit when people talk about the lightsaber choosing Rey and rejecting Kylo because he's unworthy.

I don't think that lightsaber can afford to get too hoity-toity about worthiness, with the toddler skeletons in its own closet...
@Darth Dingbat

Like, I hear all the time about how it's the "lightsaber" that calls to Rey. As if the weapon has a will of its own. But has this even been confirmed anywhere? The script and novel both say that it's the Force that Kylo was struggling with. I saw no mention of the saber itself rejecting him, but perhaps I missed it somewhere.

Maybe it was included in that same deleted scene that confirms Kylo and Rey are cousins? Cos I missed that one too. scratch

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Post by Darth_Awakened on Thu 08 Sep 2016, 11:48 am

WhatGirl wrote:
@Darth Dingbat wrote:I must admit it amuses me a bit when people talk about the lightsaber choosing Rey and rejecting Kylo because he's unworthy.

I don't think that lightsaber can afford to get too hoity-toity about worthiness, with the toddler skeletons in its own closet...
@Darth Dingbat

Like, I hear all the time about how it's the "lightsaber" that calls to Rey. As if the weapon has a will of its own. But has this even been confirmed anywhere? The script and novel both say that it's the Force that Kylo was struggling with. I saw no mention of the saber itself rejecting him, but perhaps I missed it somewhere.

Maybe it was included in that same deleted scene that confirms Kylo and Rey are cousins? Cos I missed that one too. scratch
@WhatGirl

It was not. Exactly the opposite was confirmed - that Rey called the saber. (I think it was Pablo)
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Post by Kessel on Thu 08 Sep 2016, 12:00 pm

@Darth Dingbat wrote:I must admit it amuses me a bit when people talk about the lightsaber choosing Rey and rejecting Kylo because he's unworthy.

I don't think that lightsaber can afford to get too hoity-toity about worthiness, with the toddler skeletons in its own closet...
@Darth Dingbat

Yeah, if the lightsaber is sentient enough to chose to fly to Rey instead of Kylo, why didn't it "choose" to fly out of Anakin's hand to one of the padawans he killed, instead of letting Anakin hack away at them?

@WhatGirl- I also never got the impression the lightsaber had a will of its own, but I think many people got that impression because Maz said, "[t]hat lightsaber was Luke's. And his father's before him and now, it calls to you!"

Like you, I always assumed it was the Force (through the lightsaber) calling to Rey and not the lightsaber itself. In the snow scene, Rey's Force pull was stronger than Kylo's. It looked like Kylo was struggling with his ability to Force pull due to his injuries and Rey was stronger at that moment when they were both Force pulling it, but I think the Force (not the lightsaber) could have also given her an extra push, choosing to help her, not him.  We know Kylo was shocked when the lightsaber went to Rey, so there's that.
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Post by MindAndMagic on Thu 08 Sep 2016, 12:03 pm

@Darth Dingbat wrote:I must admit it amuses me a bit when people talk about the lightsaber choosing Rey and rejecting Kylo because he's unworthy.

I don't think that lightsaber can afford to get too hoity-toity about worthiness, with the toddler skeletons in its own closet...
@Darth Dingbat

Indeed. That lighsaber definitely has  a dark history. I'm not sure we can regard it as a sentient being and I didn't read the scene as Kylo being unworthy, but as part of his wake-up call. He must go on a journey to self-discovery and atonement to become the Skywalker legacy heir we all want him to be. At that moment in the forest Kylo had reached his lowest point, he was an emotional mess, heavily injured, his ability to use the Force was visibly diminished and Rey overpowered him, which is exactly what should have happened. The saber went to his source of hope embodied in Rey who will be the catalyst for his redemption. To me, it also symbolised Rey's future role in the Skywalker family, her acceptance of ''the call" of the Force as she embarks on her heroic journey. The scene empathised their unique connection.


Last edited by Queen of the Knights on Thu 08 Sep 2016, 2:06 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Post by vaderito on Thu 08 Sep 2016, 12:36 pm

Queen of the Knights wrote:
@Darth Dingbat wrote:I must admit it amuses me a bit when people talk about the lightsaber choosing Rey and rejecting Kylo because he's unworthy.

I don't think that lightsaber can afford to get too hoity-toity about worthiness, with the toddler skeletons in its own closet...
@Darth Dingbat

I agree. I'm not sure we can regard the saber as a sentient being. I didn't read the scene as Kylo being unworthy, but as part of his wake-up call. He must go on a journey to self-discovery and atonement to become the Skywalker legacy heir we all want him to be. At that moment in the forest he had reached his lowest point, he was an emotional mess, his ability to use the Force was visibly diminished and Rey overpowered him, which is exactly what should have happened. The saber went to his source of hope embodied in Rey who will be the catalyst for his redemption. To me, it also symbolised Rey's future role in the  Skywalker family, her acceptance of ''the call" of the Force as she embarks on her heroic journey.
@Queen of the Knights

I think that Rey called it and Kylo couldn't cause he wasn't focused. But it was also played a bit like that saber chose Rey which is a good way to give Kylo something to think about. if he interprets it as "I was snubbed as unworthy" perhaps he starts thinking about his actions.

But, anyway, it's hilarious to see sexist brigade now saying that the saber chose Rey but Maz chose Finn and Maz >>>> saber. Laughing Never mind that Maz gave the saber to Finn to "give it to your friend" but that was conveniently forgotten. Also, same brigade completely dismisses Maz's authority on who isn't coming back (Rey's family) because that doesn't support their Reywalker/Soloist headcanon. But suddenly she's the authority on who's Primo Jedi of ST. Rolling Eyes Laughing No wonder all their predictions flop.
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Post by snufkin on Thu 08 Sep 2016, 12:39 pm

@Darth Dingbat wrote:I must admit it amuses me a bit when people talk about the lightsaber choosing Rey and rejecting Kylo because he's unworthy.

I don't think that lightsaber can afford to get too hoity-toity about worthiness, with the toddler skeletons in its own closet...
@Darth Dingbat

You may have just surpassed your Rathars=Vagina Dentata observation with this gem. Gold star for this comment.
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Post by Sylvia Snow on Thu 08 Sep 2016, 6:41 pm

I don't know where to put this but anyone know when there will be a part 2 for the SW Connection?
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