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Post by Irina de France on Thu 06 Oct 2016, 7:14 pm

@vaderito wrote:ha,ha, that's brilliant. When you peel off Vader wannabe layers of clothing, there's real Solo underneath. Funny thing is that he's an effortless Solo despite trying to suppress it while he's an awkward Vader despite his earnestness.
@vaderito

Kylo is basically a mix of Anakin, Han and Leia... but the combination gives pretty much a walking human disaster. XD

Seriously, though, when I re-watched ESB, I was shocked to see how much Kylo and Han were actually similar in facial expressions and even mannerisms, when you pay close attention.

Reminds me of this picture I found on Tumblr recently comparing a high school picture of Harrison Ford and Adam Driver:

Spoiler:
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Post by vaderito on Thu 06 Oct 2016, 7:22 pm

@Irina de France And Padme. Don't forget Padme. he has her mole and almond shaped eyes. And they were students of history.
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Post by Irina de France on Thu 06 Oct 2016, 7:24 pm

@vaderito wrote:@Irina de France And Padme. Don't forget Padme. he has her mole and almond shaped eyes. And they were students of history.
@vaderito

And they both have great fashion sense Wink
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Post by reylo1992 on Fri 07 Oct 2016, 12:42 am

@Irina de France wrote:
@vaderito wrote:@Irina de France And Padme. Don't forget Padme. he has her mole and almond shaped eyes. And they were students of history.
@vaderito

And they both have great fashion sense Wink
@Irina de France
@vaderito

I agree. I would even bet that as strange as it might sounds, Padme is actually the one after Ben takes the most, but only the next(s) episode(s) can confirm or debunk that impression, so let's see Question
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Post by snufkin on Fri 07 Oct 2016, 1:42 am

@reylo1992 wrote:
@snufkin

Yep! Rey parallels a lot Han in general where  Kylo seems to have a lot of his mother, especially her dry humor/tone and her haughty behavior because born as a prince from an important family in this galaxy. No surprise that he demises his non-sensitive smuggler of father and look down on Rey at first.

But I find it interesting how Kylo is the anti-Han Solo and the embodiment of Han Solo at the same time.

The Kylo Ren from the beginning of the movie has NOTHING to do with the Han Solo of Ep.IV. Just pay attention to the the attitudes and their costumes, you would never think that they're father and son. Kylo looks completely like a old medieval monk with his heavy cockblocking costume, his "sovereign" attitude and his strong belief in the Force. I mean, even Anakin as a Jedi looked much more relax in Ep.II:
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But even more interesting is how the interrogation scene is meant to show us that he jus't can't deny his true nature and where he comes from. For me, the line "you cannot deny the truth of your family" (actually Han as the rejected father) takes his real significance there. In France, a famous proverb says: "chassez le naturel, il revient au galop" (what's bred in the bones comes out in flesh) and I find it striking how it applies well to Kylo's behavior in this scene:

Stucks up like Daddy?
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Check!

Smirks with overconfidence like Daddy?
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Check!

Flirts openly with the girl he wants like Daddy?
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Check!

Han Solo, get out of this body!Laughing

The funny thing  is that Rey doesn't need to do anything significant to make him peacocking like that that when she's around. The day Kylo reconciles with this part of his family within, he'll make a great step forward Very Happy

@reylo1992

I love your use of French idioms to explain some of these character traits!

Your observations are borne out by how Han's paternity (which means legacy and identity) is a theme in TFA. It's an echo of Luke learning that Vader is his father and trying to deny it before accepting it/moving forward. They've set it up several different ways (my list), but the big takeaway is that the father-son dynamic of this trilogy is very much meant to be Han and Ben. It's a reversal because it'll be the father who ultimately saves his son and also not the main branch of the family tree most viewers expect. And ha, yeah it's not a coincidence that somebody who's presently quite arrogant about his social station becomes interested in a woman who comes from the opposite end but who's his equal. Not to mention how it's the same social station his father comes from. It'll definitely be interesting to see how they show him evolving and integrating those familial/paternal traits, definitely a clever way of getting around just having the child be a duplicate of the parent.
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Post by Sylvia Snow on Fri 07 Oct 2016, 3:58 am

How foolish i am to not notice that Snoke and the Enchantress, in her disguise, share a similarity in appearances

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Post by FrolickingFizzgig on Fri 07 Oct 2016, 4:08 am

@Sylvia Snow
Not really seeing it personally. I don't remember the enchantress being in the movie at all either. Other than this shot: 

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Is your shot from the sequel or something? Prequel? I know there was a direct-to-video something or other. But I wouldn't put much stock in it.
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Post by Sylvia Snow on Fri 07 Oct 2016, 4:46 am

@FrolickingFizzgig wrote:@Sylvia Snow
Not really seeing it personally. I don't remember the enchantress being in the movie at all either. Other than this shot: 

ARCHIVE: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings - 11 - Page 6 Oldwomanbeautifulenchantress

Is your shot from the sequel or something? Prequel? I know there was a direct-to-video something or other. But I wouldn't put much stock in it.
@FrolickingFizzgig

I think it was in a prequel, the one with a creepy pipe organ and something to do with Christmas
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Post by Rei of Sunshine on Fri 07 Oct 2016, 5:44 am

Reposting this from another thread from TFA sub forum. I think this needs some discussion too for Ep VIII

@BastilaBey wrote:
@motherofpearl1 wrote:Do you know, everyone hates Kylo for killing Han...
Yet his mother and father sanctioned and aided a bombing raid that would have killed him.
@motherofpearl1

Yeah I watched TFA again yesterday and was thinking about this. Leia's like 'if you see our son, bring him home' and seems to genuinely miss him, but also...seems pretty sure he'll be on SKB and is cool with the idea of blowing it up and Ben just being part of the collateral damage. It kind of shows that none of them are particularly happy with their decisions, but it's war.

I think that might have been what Kathleen Kennedy was talking about in the interview when she said "Kylo Ren seems to have taken many bad decisions, but they aren’t necessarily bad decisions within the context of Star Wars, where they can lead to almost anything."

Neither side is innocent, even if there are heroes and villains as an imperative of the narrative.
@BastilaBey

Which makes me want what someone else has said, about the Resistance being questioned by Finn like "I thought you were the good guys?"

This line would basically directly spoonfeed the idea to the audience that the Resistance has questionable actions as well.

Some Kylo-haters would simply justify Leia and Han's acquiesence to SKB bombing despite Kylo, because both parents have probably accepted their son to be irredeemable. It's a very short sighted decision IMO... to paraphrasa what Leia said, it would go like

"So if you see Ben, make sure you drag him home. But if you don't, well I guess we tried everything *shrugs*"

I hope that despite CF's supposed short screentime, it won't be wasted too much on war drama... there needs to be a scene where she either thinks of or discusses Ben and Han...
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Post by Saracene on Fri 07 Oct 2016, 6:04 am

I wonder if the filmmakers really thought through the implications of Kylo being on the SK and how its destruction would affect his parents' decisions.

It felt like they treated the Kylo storyline and the SK storyline as somehow separate even though it makes little sense. I mean, when Han makes a decision to confront his son I don't get a sense that he does it because he doesn't want him to be blown up.

I don't really find Han and Leia's decision to attack SK questionable though. Even if they believed their son to be redeemable, they were out of time. SK was gearing up for another blast and had to be stopped, fast.
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Post by Rei of Sunshine on Fri 07 Oct 2016, 8:22 am

@Saracene wrote:I wonder if the filmmakers really thought through the implications of Kylo being on the SK and how its destruction would affect his parents' decisions.

It felt like they treated the Kylo storyline and the SK storyline as somehow separate even though it makes little sense. I mean, when Han makes a decision to confront his son I don't get a sense that he does it because he doesn't want him to be blown up.

I don't really find Han and Leia's decision to attack SK questionable though. Even if they believed their son to be redeemable, they were out of time. SK was gearing up for another blast and had to be stopped, fast.
@Saracene

Yeah, the "Find Ben" and "Blow Up SKB" didn't really mesh well. Also I realize that "Find Ben" was probably always what Leia wanted to do... "Blow up SKB" was more of a defense mechanism.
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Post by Jakku on Fri 07 Oct 2016, 12:27 pm

@Saracene wrote:I wonder if the filmmakers really thought through the implications of Kylo being on the SK and how its destruction would affect his parents' decisions.

It felt like they treated the Kylo storyline and the SK storyline as somehow separate even though it makes little sense. I mean, when Han makes a decision to confront his son I don't get a sense that he does it because he doesn't want him to be blown up.

I don't really find Han and Leia's decision to attack SK questionable though. Even if they believed their son to be redeemable, they were out of time. SK was gearing up for another blast and had to be stopped, fast.
@Saracene

Actualy, it would have made more sense for the Resistance to simply evacuate the base. The rebels evacuated many bases in earlier stories. There was no real need to take out SKB right at that moment.

Of course, if Leia had evacuated the base and not attacked SKB, colleagues would have wondered why, seeing as how they don't know Kylo is her son. She was prepared to sacrifice him in the interests of protecting the Republic, which may be a clue. Maybe that's why Kylo talked about 'murderers, traitors and thieves'? His own father was prepared to murder him to protect the Republic.
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Post by Saracene on Fri 07 Oct 2016, 1:12 pm

@Jakku wrote:Actualy, it would have made more sense for the Resistance to simply evacuate the base.  The rebels evacuated many bases in earlier stories.  There was no real need to take out SKB right at that moment.

Of course, if Leia had evacuated the base and not attacked SKB, colleagues would have wondered why, seeing as how they don't know Kylo is her son.  She was prepared to sacrifice him in the interests of protecting the Republic, which may be a clue.  Maybe that's why Kylo talked about 'murderers, traitors and thieves'?  His own father was prepared to murder him to protect the Republic.
@Jakku

Evacuation was an option I guess; but the story demands came first - JJ wanted the SK attack to be a part of the movie's climax so it had to happen. Again, I just don't think that they really thought through how different story elements affect each other. It's just weird that neither Han nor Leia seem to give much thought to the fact that their son is on the soon-to-go-boom SK. Even a "we have to do what we have to do to protect the Republic" moment would have made more sense in the circumstances.

As an aside, does anyone actually like the SK attack? As in real liking rather than, "well I didn't mind/hate it". I don't think I've seen anyone anywhere say anything truly positive about it. It seems to be one universally derided element of TFA.
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Post by Irina de France on Fri 07 Oct 2016, 1:16 pm

@Saracene wrote:
@Jakku wrote:Actualy, it would have made more sense for the Resistance to simply evacuate the base.  The rebels evacuated many bases in earlier stories.  There was no real need to take out SKB right at that moment.

Of course, if Leia had evacuated the base and not attacked SKB, colleagues would have wondered why, seeing as how they don't know Kylo is her son.  She was prepared to sacrifice him in the interests of protecting the Republic, which may be a clue.  Maybe that's why Kylo talked about 'murderers, traitors and thieves'?  His own father was prepared to murder him to protect the Republic.
@Jakku

Evacuation was an option I guess; but the story demands came first - JJ wanted the SK attack to be a part of the movie's climax so it had to happen. Again, I just don't think that they really thought through how different story elements affect each other. It's just weird that neither Han nor Leia seem to give much thought to the fact that their son is on the soon-to-go-boom SK. Even a "we have to do what we have to do to protect the Republic" moment would have made more sense in the circumstances.

As an aside, does anyone actually like the SK attack? As in real liking rather than, "well I didn't mind/hate it". I don't think I've seen anyone anywhere say anything truly positive about it. It seems to be one universally derided element of TFA.
@Saracene

Well, come to think of it, Leia also had no idea if Han, Finn and Chewie were off SKB when they attacked. But of course, she attacked regardless for the "greater good", I guess. Woman's got some nerves of steel.
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Post by Jakku on Fri 07 Oct 2016, 1:23 pm

@Saracene wrote:
@Jakku wrote:Actualy, it would have made more sense for the Resistance to simply evacuate the base.  The rebels evacuated many bases in earlier stories.  There was no real need to take out SKB right at that moment.

Of course, if Leia had evacuated the base and not attacked SKB, colleagues would have wondered why, seeing as how they don't know Kylo is her son.  She was prepared to sacrifice him in the interests of protecting the Republic, which may be a clue.  Maybe that's why Kylo talked about 'murderers, traitors and thieves'?  His own father was prepared to murder him to protect the Republic.
@Jakku

Evacuation was an option I guess; but the story demands came first - JJ wanted the SK attack to be a part of the movie's climax so it had to happen. Again, I just don't think that they really thought through how different story elements affect each other. It's just weird that neither Han nor Leia seem to give much thought to the fact that their son is on the soon-to-go-boom SK. Even a "we have to do what we have to do to protect the Republic" moment would have made more sense in the circumstances.

As an aside, does anyone actually like the SK attack? As in real liking rather than, "well I didn't mind/hate it". I don't think I've seen anyone anywhere say anything truly positive about it. It seems to be one universally derided element of TFA.
@Saracene

Do you mean the X-wing attack? I fast-forward through that every time I watch. In fact, I FF through most scenes involving Poe, because I can't stand all those hackneyed lines "We got company", "Give it everything you got"...

The fact that Poe gets in the crucial hit just diminishes Luke's achievements in ANH.
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Post by panki on Fri 07 Oct 2016, 1:43 pm

@Jakku wrote:
@Saracene wrote:I wonder if the filmmakers really thought through the implications of Kylo being on the SK and how its destruction would affect his parents' decisions.

It felt like they treated the Kylo storyline and the SK storyline as somehow separate even though it makes little sense. I mean, when Han makes a decision to confront his son I don't get a sense that he does it because he doesn't want him to be blown up.

I don't really find Han and Leia's decision to attack SK questionable though. Even if they believed their son to be redeemable, they were out of time. SK was gearing up for another blast and had to be stopped, fast.
@Saracene

Actualy, it would have made more sense for the Resistance to simply evacuate the base.  The rebels evacuated many bases in earlier stories.  There was no real need to take out SKB right at that moment.

Of course, if Leia had evacuated the base and not attacked SKB, colleagues would have wondered why, seeing as how they don't know Kylo is her son.  She was prepared to sacrifice him in the interests of protecting the Republic, which may be a clue.  Maybe that's why Kylo talked about 'murderers, traitors and thieves'?  His own father was prepared to murder him to protect the Republic.
@Jakku

I feel this is a really good explanation of Leia's mindset at the time and probably why Ben feels angry and betrayed by his family.... this is not to say Han and Leia are evil people, but Leia is ready to do whatever it takes to save the new republic (her adopted father's legacy and her life work) even if it means sacrificing her own life and the lives of loved ones... Han is ready to blow up the base for Leia...... Leia asked Han to bring Ben back but if Kylo didn't return with Han, then he too would have perished on SKB and I'm sure she was aware of that. The resistance was used to shifting from system to system to avoid detection....when the Hosnian system was blown up, it would be logical for the resistance to go into hiding, even if only as a precautionary measure.....I think Leia's decision to blow up SKB arises from the anger and helplessness she still feels after losing Alderaan.

I like Poe but I have to admit even I skip that SKB flying scene, mostly because there is just so much great stuff to watch in the fight between Rey and Kylo.... but in Before the Awakening novel, Leia mentions that Poe flies just like Luke and he is never supposed to miss a shot..... I have a feeling it is linked to the Force Tree that Luke gave Shara Bey and they wanted to start building that connection from episode 7 itself....Poe might not a force user, but he might possess certain FS qualities as a result of it, hence picking up flying at age six and unerring aim.

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Post by Saracene on Fri 07 Oct 2016, 1:58 pm

@panki wrote:I feel this is a really good explanation of Leia's mindset at the time and probably why Ben feels angry and betrayed by his family.... this is not to say Han and Leia are evil people, but Leia is ready to do whatever it takes to save the new republic (her adopted father's legacy and her life work) even if it means sacrificing her own life and the lives of loved ones... Han is ready to blow up the base for Leia...... Leia asked Han to bring Ben back but if Kylo didn't return with Han, then he too would have perished on SKB and I'm sure she was aware of that. The resistance was used to shifting from system to system to avoid detection....when the Hosnian system was blown up, it would be logical for the resistance to go into hiding, even if only as a precautionary measure.....I think Leia's decision to blow up SKB arises from the anger and helplessness she still feels after losing Alderaan.
@panki

I think that destroying the SKB makes more sense because any hiding can only be a temporary measure and in the meantime the SKB might blow up yet more planets with billions of people on them.

Kylo might feel angry and betrayed by his family, but I doubt he feels this way because they're trying to destroy his master's cause. He picked his side himself and deliberately set himself against his mother and left behind his old name. No matter how much self-delusion he has I don't think he see it as, "they want to destroy the FO so that must mean they don't care about meeeeee".
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Post by Jakku on Fri 07 Oct 2016, 2:05 pm

Kylo talks about murderers long before Han even arrives on SKB, so it's about something in the past. If he's referring to Han, who did Han murder?

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Post by panki on Fri 07 Oct 2016, 2:13 pm

@Saracene wrote:
@panki wrote:I feel this is a really good explanation of Leia's mindset at the time and probably why Ben feels angry and betrayed by his family.... this is not to say Han and Leia are evil people, but Leia is ready to do whatever it takes to save the new republic (her adopted father's legacy and her life work) even if it means sacrificing her own life and the lives of loved ones... Han is ready to blow up the base for Leia...... Leia asked Han to bring Ben back but if Kylo didn't return with Han, then he too would have perished on SKB and I'm sure she was aware of that. The resistance was used to shifting from system to system to avoid detection....when the Hosnian system was blown up, it would be logical for the resistance to go into hiding, even if only as a precautionary measure.....I think Leia's decision to blow up SKB arises from the anger and helplessness she still feels after losing Alderaan.
@panki

I think that destroying the SKB makes more sense because any hiding can only be a temporary measure and in the meantime the SKB might blow up yet more planets with billions of people on them.

Kylo might feel angry and betrayed by his family, but I doubt he feels this way because they're trying to destroy his master's cause. He picked his side himself and deliberately set himself against his mother and left behind his old name. No matter how much self-delusion he has I don't think he see it as, "they want to destroy the FO so that must mean they don't care about meeeeee".
@Saracene

While I agree that escaping is a temporary measure, the rebels had done this sort of things before.... even in the OT, they shifted their base on more than one occasion.... maybe Leia is looking for a permanent solution but I think her absolute disregard of the lives of others puts her on the same level as the FO.... I don't buy the whole "good guy" vs. "bad guy" thing... the FO could rise because the new republic failed... it failed the planets of the outer rim, it failed to reduce the corruption and the festering underworld etc..... it created a fertile ground for something like the FO to rise and get the support of some of the members of the new republic. The new republic had 30 years to make things right- they didn't. Now blowing up a base and reliving the glory days of Endor is not going to change the mistakes made....Leia is turning into her father at one level....he wanted peace and order in the galaxy even if he had to kill for it......Leia is echoing the same sentiment- I don't agree with it because it perpetuates a vicious cycle.

I wouldn't jump to the conclusion that Kylo "picked his side" and "chose his name".... we don't know his backstory yet....if he went and joined voluntarily and took a new name to serve Snoke, I will agree with you. But if he was abducted (as rumored) or was captured while on a mission for the resistance and Snoke broke him down and created a new identity for him, that changes everything. Under those circumstances, if Kylo knows his mother and her group are willing to blow up SKB, being well aware that he will die on it, he would rightly see them as murderers and traitors. I would hold out on jumping to a conclusion either way here.

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Post by panki on Fri 07 Oct 2016, 2:14 pm

@Jakku wrote:Kylo talks about murderers long before Han even arrives on SKB, so it's about something in the past. If he's referring to Han, who did Han murder?

@Jakku

Greedo What a Face tongue alien

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Post by Jakku on Fri 07 Oct 2016, 3:53 pm

Greedo, of course!  

You know, if Kylo can get into people's minds so deeply, I wonder what he saw in Han's mind?  Or Leia's?

Or Luke's?
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Post by Maria Antonietta on Fri 07 Oct 2016, 3:58 pm

Watching tfa for the 58964th time, the quote by Han "a magical power that holds together the light side and the dark" is still the biggest foreshadowing ever
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Post by guardienne on Fri 07 Oct 2016, 4:04 pm

@Jakku wrote:Kylo talks about murderers long before Han even arrives on SKB, so it's about something in the past. If he's referring to Han, who did Han murder?

@Jakku

i don't think he means han specifically with that line. it could be luke as well. of course that is debatable seeing as luke has disappeared. but the resistance, i guess.

you can ask the same thing about the traitors and the thieves. we don't know who he means specifically either. maybe it's just his catch-all for people who aren't the FO.
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Post by Jakku on Fri 07 Oct 2016, 4:09 pm

Rey asked "Where are the others?".  She could only mean Han, Chewie, BB8 and Maz. She thought Finn had already left - remember how surprised she was to see him on SKB?  So I'd guess Han, Chewie or Maz (do we count BB8?) are seen as murderers, traitors and thieves - the people she 'calls friends'.
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Post by SoloSideCousin on Fri 07 Oct 2016, 4:43 pm

On the whole "evacuate the planet or blow up SKB" issue, I think that Leia going "all in" on blowing up SKB is very much the somewhat rash/"fly by the seat of your pants"/ideals at all costs" Leia that we are starting to see in the new canon books. I mean "evacuate or blow up" should not be an "either/or" choice. For one, is the bulk of the Resistance on that planet? If so, that's insane not to evacuate at least non-necessary crew and other designated people so the Resistance can live on if D'Qar goes. Further, is there anyone else on that planet? Third, the plan to attack SKB is extremely half-a****. It looks like Poe and 4 other pilots. *This* is their big attack? Are they transmitting information about SKB off-planet in case they don't succeed? I don’t see anything like that.

However, little moments like that would have heightened the tension, showing that only the most skeleton group was staying, showing some passing of a disk to an evacuee that held the SKB information. It wouldn't have taken that long and it would have helped the drama. It just goes to show, like everyone is saying here, that that whole sequence just seems to have been an afterthought ... like JJ is subliminally acknowledging, "Yeah, you know they're going to blow this thing up, so don't get too worked up about it, but I need obligatory X-wing and blow up scenes." So, yes, absolutely, this whole part was not thought through on its own merits, but merely seems to be one of the most obvious examples of "comfort food" in the movie and a nice big fiery red herring of the mystery box to not make it too obvious as to what was happening with Rey and Kylo. JJ even admitted that in one interview, saying something like, "people think the death star is the big deal when it's really the two people on the ground." It appears that the team's mental powers were so devoted to the Snow Fight that some basic things (like creating strong interest, lol) were left out of the SKB attack run.

However, whether they intended it or not on TFA, when you couple Leia's "attack it right now with everything we got (which isn't much since I don't seem to be planning much) no matter what it costs (everyone on Resistance base, Han, own son)" does very much add to this "Vader's daughter" aspect of her given that in new canon she drowns a whole little city just to kill a couple of guys and where she says at another point, "I would burn the whole galaxy if I thought it was right." If Kylo is crazy zealous in his mission, we're getting a good picture of where he got it from.
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