ARCHIVE: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings - 11

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Post by MyOnlyHope on Sun 30 Oct 2016, 9:27 pm

@Moonjump05 wrote:
@vaderito wrote:@Darth dementor That isn't even a spoof. That's totally going to be some people's argument. "And than they'll reveal that previous movies were all bad, dark Side induced dream, and the truth about Reywalker and FinnRey will be revealed in the next movie. But if it doesn't, it means they are still living through a nightmare. It's not real."
@vaderito

Unfortunately, I can see this happening. It has happened before.
@Moonjump05
I think the "general state of society as a whole" is going to get a lot of random blame thrown its way once episode VIII is released. I can see the comments now. Laughing

"The sequel trilogy really reflects how f***** up our society is. It reflects the inherently racist nature of our society because Finn can't use the Force and doesn't get with Rey. It's homophobic because Rey isn't gay. It condones abuse and reproduces rape culture because Rey feels compassion for her abuser. It's unrealistic and sends a bad message to little girls that they can change bad people with love and understanding. People can't change! Doesn't our society know that little girls can't tell the difference between fiction and reality?"

Repeat ad infinitum.
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Post by ZioRen on Sun 30 Oct 2016, 9:30 pm

@MyOnlyHope wrote:
@Moonjump05 wrote:
@vaderito wrote:@Darth dementor That isn't even a spoof. That's totally going to be some people's argument. "And than they'll reveal that previous movies were all bad, dark Side induced dream, and the truth about Reywalker and FinnRey will be revealed in the next movie. But if it doesn't, it means they are still living through a nightmare. It's not real."
@vaderito

Unfortunately, I can see this happening.  It has happened before.
@Moonjump05
I think the "general state of society as a whole" is going to get a lot of random blame thrown its way once episode VIII is released. I can see the comments now. Laughing

"The sequel trilogy really reflects how f***** up our society is. It reflects the inherently racist nature of our society because Finn can't use the Force and doesn't get with Rey. It's homophobic because Rey isn't gay. It condones abuse and reproduces rape culture because Rey feels compassion for her abuser. It's unrealistic and sends a bad message to little girls that they can change bad people with love and understanding. People can't change! Doesn't our society know that little girls can't tell the difference between fiction and reality?"

Repeat ad infinitum.
@MyOnlyHope

Unfortunately there will likely be multiple articles and opinion pieces that say exactly these things.

It'll go from "this will never happen" to people personally attacking the writers and accusing them of abuse apology, racism, homophobia, etc etc. I know fandom these days enough to know it'll get nasty. And Reylo fans will still be attacked for also "condoning" these things.

I wish it was as simple as us winning and the naysayers getting over it. But noooo.
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Post by MindAndMagic on Sun 30 Oct 2016, 9:35 pm


@FrolickingFizzgig

Do they really call it ''narrative nonsense''? Then I guess not all fans are aware of what they're actually a fan of because this shows a complete lack of understanding of very fundamental, common knowledge stuff. Even non-fans who haven't even watched the saga know what the main target audience of SW is: young adults and younger kids. Which is why words like ''nihilistic'', ''pessimistic'', ''hopeless'', ''depressingly realistic'', ''gothic'', ''overtly sexual'', ''kinky'', ''creepy'', ''twisted'' simply do not belong in SW. This is not a psychological thriller, a GOT-type fantasy, a vampire TV show or literary realism. It is a modern children's fairtyle, which just so happens to be set in space, but still brings forth the same eternal messages we find in any other timeless fairtyle or coming-of-age story like B & B, Harry Potter, Naruto, etc: believing in yourself and your own inner strength, in the power of friendship, love and compassion. The light as a metaphor for everlasting hope will always be there to guide you and even when it seems like you are lost forever, there is always a way back. So beautifully simple, so human, relatable and intuitive. It's always one and the same, only in a new form. A child gets it instantly, which is why SW is really written for children, both younger and older. So no, dear cynicists and pessimists, we are not reaching, we are simply following what the movie told us, picking up on narrative cues scattered all around, some of them in a very non-subtle way, and never forgetting what kind of movie we're watching. Maybe if you open your hearts and minds just a little bit and remember what it's like to be a child with imagination and a capacity to feel compassion, you will ''feel it too''.


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Post by Guest on Sun 30 Oct 2016, 9:36 pm

@ZioRen wrote:
@MyOnlyHope wrote:
@Moonjump05 wrote:
@vaderito wrote:@Darth dementor That isn't even a spoof. That's totally going to be some people's argument. "And than they'll reveal that previous movies were all bad, dark Side induced dream, and the truth about Reywalker and FinnRey will be revealed in the next movie. But if it doesn't, it means they are still living through a nightmare. It's not real."
@vaderito

Unfortunately, I can see this happening.  It has happened before.
@Moonjump05
I think the "general state of society as a whole" is going to get a lot of random blame thrown its way once episode VIII is released. I can see the comments now. Laughing

"The sequel trilogy really reflects how f***** up our society is. It reflects the inherently racist nature of our society because Finn can't use the Force and doesn't get with Rey. It's homophobic because Rey isn't gay. It condones abuse and reproduces rape culture because Rey feels compassion for her abuser. It's unrealistic and sends a bad message to little girls that they can change bad people with love and understanding. People can't change! Doesn't our society know that little girls can't tell the difference between fiction and reality?"

Repeat ad infinitum.
@MyOnlyHope

Unfortunately there will likely be multiple articles and opinion pieces that say exactly these things.

It'll go from "this will never happen" to people personally attacking the writers and accusing them of abuse apology, racism, homophobia, etc etc. I know fandom these days enough to know it'll get nasty. And Reylo fans will still be attacked for also "condoning" these things.

I wish it was as simple as us winning and the naysayers getting over it. But noooo.
@ZioRen

Agreed 100% That's why I already have my power cards in place. Hopefully after the aftershock has died down, some of those people will walk away butthurt.

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Post by Moonjump05 on Sun 30 Oct 2016, 9:47 pm

AppleCrumble122 wrote:
@ZioRen wrote:
@MyOnlyHope wrote:
@Moonjump05 wrote:
@vaderito wrote:@Darth dementor That isn't even a spoof. That's totally going to be some people's argument. "And than they'll reveal that previous movies were all bad, dark Side induced dream, and the truth about Reywalker and FinnRey will be revealed in the next movie. But if it doesn't, it means they are still living through a nightmare. It's not real."
@vaderito

Unfortunately, I can see this happening.  It has happened before.
@Moonjump05
I think the "general state of society as a whole" is going to get a lot of random blame thrown its way once episode VIII is released. I can see the comments now. Laughing

"The sequel trilogy really reflects how f***** up our society is. It reflects the inherently racist nature of our society because Finn can't use the Force and doesn't get with Rey. It's homophobic because Rey isn't gay. It condones abuse and reproduces rape culture because Rey feels compassion for her abuser. It's unrealistic and sends a bad message to little girls that they can change bad people with love and understanding. People can't change! Doesn't our society know that little girls can't tell the difference between fiction and reality?"

Repeat ad infinitum.
@MyOnlyHope

Unfortunately there will likely be multiple articles and opinion pieces that say exactly these things.

It'll go from "this will never happen" to people personally attacking the writers and accusing them of abuse apology, racism, homophobia, etc etc. I know fandom these days enough to know it'll get nasty. And Reylo fans will still be attacked for also "condoning" these things.

I wish it was as simple as us winning and the naysayers getting over it. But noooo.
@ZioRen

Agreed 100% That's why I already have my power cards in place. Hopefully after the aftershock has died down, some of those people will walk away butthurt.
@AppleCrumble122

All of this, plus add in the contentious shipping angle and we are headed toward a perfect storm. Disney/LF doesn't care- any publicity is good publicity, but I am still dreading it.

*By shipping I am drawing from the batshit insane fandom wars that erupted when Naruto ended. Not only was cries of genjutsu or it is all fake prominent, but you got petitions to change the ending, death threats, people burning their merchandise, etc...

It was sad.
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Post by Mana on Sun 30 Oct 2016, 9:53 pm

I've seen some antis threatening to burn their Star Wars merchandise if Reylo becomes canon, and this was from a comment on a picture on Daisy's instagram!
I don't think Dinsey cares who and why people burn/destroy their merchandise...as long as they've paid for it first Smile
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Post by MeadowofAshes on Sun 30 Oct 2016, 10:09 pm

I know we are in the midst of a celebReytion, but something crossed my mind this evening. I have long thought but am even more convinced the climax of this trilogy will be a Kiss of Life. Why? Not only does it perfectly fit the fairy tale element JJ declared was present in TFA, but in TFA the climax was the turning point for not only Rey but Kylo, when Rey calls the legacy lightsaber. For Rey, the turning point was when she stopped running from her destiny and called it to her. For Kylo, it was when Rey went from "just a scavenger" to "it is you". Ultimate turning point for Rey is to love (however you conceptualize that) the monstrous. Ultimate turning point for Kylo is selfless sacrifice that leads to the rebirth of Ben Solo. We had a climax that was a turning point for both in TFA; it would make narrative sense for the turning point of the trilogy to also involve both. Kiss of Life works perfectly because he gives his life for her and her love brings about the death of the beast/resurrection of the man.
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Post by BastilaBey on Sun 30 Oct 2016, 10:12 pm

@Mana You can't be serious. There are actually fans saying they'll burn their sw toys if the hero learns to love the villain, the man behind the mask, and help bring him back from the darkness? Oh dear...nobody tell these people about the original trilogy...
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Post by IoJovi on Sun 30 Oct 2016, 10:13 pm

@Mana wrote:I've seen some antis threatening to burn their Star Wars merchandise if Reylo becomes canon, and this was from a comment on a picture on Daisy's instagram!
I don't think Dinsey cares who and why people burn/destroy their merchandise...as long as they've paid for it first  Smile
@Mana

If it means they'll leave the fandom and in the process leave us alone as well, they can burn everything they own, including Tupperware and designer bedding.  

Sadly though, I think it'll be like @zioren described.  Certain areas of the fandom will get worse, not better once the Reylo sets sail.  When the time comes, I'll either do my best to tune it out or better laugh at the joke that it is.  One thing's for sure, they will not ruin this for me...

@MeadowofAshes I LOVE IT!!! In that kind of scenario, I don't see that Kiss of Life happening til IX (and probably towards the end), but that is absolutely beautiful.
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Post by IoJovi on Sun 30 Oct 2016, 10:15 pm

@BastilaBey wrote:@Mana You can't be serious. There are actually fans saying they'll burn their sw toys if the hero learns to love the villain, the man behind the mask, and help bring him back from the darkness? Oh dear...nobody tell these people about the original trilogy...
@BastilaBey

I heard a story of a person who was part of the Bleach fandom (never watched it) that burned about $3500 worth of merchandise, filmed it and put it on Tumblr when the story did not end the way this person wanted it.  I believe it also revolved around shipping, if I'm not mistaken (go figure).
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Post by Sylvia Snow on Sun 30 Oct 2016, 10:16 pm

Have anyone mentioned about this yet??? This is such an interesting analysis from JJ Abram regarding TFA, also in it he mentioned Kylo look like a " Sexy dark Disney Prince" when he took off the helmet for Rey and JJ also compared Rey like other princesses in a proper fairy tale, need her prince. JJ also one again said that Kylo immediately regret the instant he killed his father 

http://mummiesandlightsabers.tumblr.com/post/152513318484/jj-abrams-audio-commentary-for-the


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Post by Mana on Sun 30 Oct 2016, 10:17 pm

@IoJovi wrote:
@BastilaBey wrote:@Mana You can't be serious. There are actually fans saying they'll burn their sw toys if the hero learns to love the villain, the man behind the mask, and help bring him back from the darkness? Oh dear...nobody tell these people about the original trilogy...
@BastilaBey

I heard a story of a person who was part of the Bleach fandom (never watched it) that burned about $3500 worth of merchandise and put it on Tumblr when the story did not end the way this person wanted it.  I believe it also revolved around shipping, if I'm not mistaken (go figure).
@IoJovi

Well, its their loss...but I hope people like that leave the fandom forever, starting right now...
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Post by IoJovi on Sun 30 Oct 2016, 10:18 pm

@Mana wrote:
@IoJovi wrote:
@BastilaBey wrote:@Mana You can't be serious. There are actually fans saying they'll burn their sw toys if the hero learns to love the villain, the man behind the mask, and help bring him back from the darkness? Oh dear...nobody tell these people about the original trilogy...
@BastilaBey

I heard a story of a person who was part of the Bleach fandom (never watched it) that burned about $3500 worth of merchandise and put it on Tumblr when the story did not end the way this person wanted it.  I believe it also revolved around shipping, if I'm not mistaken (go figure).
@IoJovi

Well, its their loss...but I hope people like that leave the fandom forever, starting right now...
@Mana

Now would be good. If they wait til VIII is released, it'll be just that much more painful for them, and that much more irritating for us. It's a win-win.
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Post by IoJovi on Sun 30 Oct 2016, 10:23 pm

@Sylvia Snow wrote:Have anyone mentioned about this yet??? This is such an interesting analysis from JJ Abram regarding TFA, also in it he mentioned Kylo look like a " Sexy dark Disney Prince" when he took off the helmet for Rey and JJ also compared Rey like other princesses in a proper fairy tale, need her prince

http://mummiesandlightsabers.tumblr.com/post/152513318484/jj-abrams-audio-commentary-for-the
@Sylvia Snow

We've been celebrating this all afternoon (my time eastern standard US.). A good six hours at least. Laughing

The highlight for me:. Kylo Ren was thinking with his d*ck instead of his brain when he abducted Rey on Takodana. JJ essentially says it was no longer about the map, but instead it became about the girl.
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Post by Sylvia Snow on Sun 30 Oct 2016, 10:25 pm

@IoJovi wrote:
@Sylvia Snow wrote:Have anyone mentioned about this yet??? This is such an interesting analysis from JJ Abram regarding TFA, also in it he mentioned Kylo look like a " Sexy dark Disney Prince" when he took off the helmet for Rey and JJ also compared Rey like other princesses in a proper fairy tale, need her prince

http://mummiesandlightsabers.tumblr.com/post/152513318484/jj-abrams-audio-commentary-for-the
@Sylvia Snow

We've been celebrating this all afternoon (my time eastern standard US.). A good six hours at least.  Laughing

The highlight for me:. Kylo Ren was thinking with his d*ck instead of his brain when he abducted Rey on Takodana.  JJ essentially says it was no longer about the map, but instead it became about the girl.  
@IoJovi

Shame, I miss the party. Kylo abandoned his brain long ago ever since he started to heard about the girl, it seems  Very Happy
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Post by IoJovi on Sun 30 Oct 2016, 10:29 pm

@Sylvia Snow wrote:
@IoJovi wrote:
@Sylvia Snow wrote:Have anyone mentioned about this yet??? This is such an interesting analysis from JJ Abram regarding TFA, also in it he mentioned Kylo look like a " Sexy dark Disney Prince" when he took off the helmet for Rey and JJ also compared Rey like other princesses in a proper fairy tale, need her prince

http://mummiesandlightsabers.tumblr.com/post/152513318484/jj-abrams-audio-commentary-for-the
@Sylvia Snow

We've been celebrating this all afternoon (my time eastern standard US.). A good six hours at least.  Laughing

The highlight for me:. Kylo Ren was thinking with his d*ck instead of his brain when he abducted Rey on Takodana.  JJ essentially says it was no longer about the map, but instead it became about the girl.  
@IoJovi

Kylo abandoned his brain long ago ever since he started to heard about the girl, it seems  Very Happy
@Sylvia Snow

Yeah if you begin about five pages back in this thread (I think that's when BastilaBey first posted it), you see nothing but celebrating and happy dance.  JJ essentially confirms everything we've been saying since Day 1.  It debunks Reylation (again), confirms Rey and Finn are only friends, calls Kylo a prince (twice), and compares Rey to Cinderella.  It's awesome stuff.

No worries though - if I remember right you're on the other side of the world from me so you were probably sleeping when this came about... Laughing
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Post by snufkin on Sun 30 Oct 2016, 10:37 pm

@MeadowofAshes, it'd be a nice inversion of the genders for that trope because the example I can think of is Buckaroo Banzai's ending


ARCHIVE: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings - 11 - Page 37 BuckarooBanzaiKiss

the titular hero, played by Peter Weller, goes to give a goodbye kiss to the departed Penny Priddy (Ellen Barkin). As he leans over Penny’s supine body, a spark of electricity, left over from a shock that the hero received earlier in the film, leaps across from him to her, bringing her back to life. The two share a kiss as more sparks fly, as it were.
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Post by Saracene on Sun 30 Oct 2016, 11:53 pm

@MeadowofAshes I’m in agreement on the Kiss of Life at the end of Episode IX. I tend to think that, if we’re indeed heading for a mutual romance in the trilogy, a kiss in Episode VIII would be too soon. One thing to remember is, our forum here is already extremely sympathetic to Kylo, and I think we’re underestimating how much rehabilitation he needs as a character, as far as the wider audience is concerned. A sympathetic backstory is a good start, but Kylo will need to do something well and truly redeeming, in the end. We compare him to the Beast a lot, but his wrongdoings are way, way heavier than any Beast-type character I can think of (the one that gets to have his feelings reciprocated, that is). All that Beast was guilty of is being a jerk, after all, he didn’t kill anyone let alone his own family.
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Post by Mana on Mon 31 Oct 2016, 12:20 am

I can't stop grinning you guys..JJ saying that Kylo is a character Rey is going to have a 'very interesting relationship with moving forward' is enough confirmation for me...
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Post by FrolickingFizzgig on Mon 31 Oct 2016, 12:27 am

@Saracene wrote:@MeadowofAshes I’m in agreement on the Kiss of Life at the end of Episode IX. I tend to think that, if we’re indeed heading for a mutual romance in the trilogy, a kiss in Episode VIII would be too soon. One thing to remember is, our forum here is already extremely sympathetic to Kylo, and I think we’re underestimating how much rehabilitation he needs as a character, as far as the wider audience is concerned. A sympathetic backstory is a good start, but Kylo will need to do something well and truly redeeming, in the end. We compare him to the Beast a lot, but his wrongdoings are way, way heavier than any Beast-type character I can think of (the one that gets to have his feelings reciprocated, that is). All that Beast was guilty of is being a jerk, after all, he didn’t kill anyone let alone his own family.
@Saracene
I'm on this page too. It depends on how the story goes, but in every scenario I've imagined it would be best for for a kiss to happen in IX. I do think this might ultimately be an unpopular opinion, but IMO VIII is going to pose more questions than it really answers. I still expect it to feature the truth about Kylo's past and Rey and Kylo becoming reluctant allies, but as you said, there's only so much a backstory can do. The dude seriously f***ed up. He believes that he's gone way too far and can't possibly be helped anymore. Whether delusional or not Kylo needs to be totally flipped on his head. We need to see that he is willing to give up everything for redemption. VIII and IX ultimately have to make the audience want Rey to want Kylo back (if they are indeed going for a reciprocated romantic dynamic).

That said, I think killing Han just made a ton of sense narratively. It set the story with new stakes. We're meant to wonder if he can be redeemed, but he is still Han and Leia's son, the last Skywalker, Han gave up his life and died loving him (and wanting him to return). As much as other "beast" characters might not have committed such heinous crimes they also did not have the same hugely important narrative background. It really does say a lot about where the story has to go (considering genre and target-audience). Kylo's characterization combined with his background is something people ignore all too often, as if he's just some random dark sider big bad who can be offed at the end of IX after he kills Snoke and usurps the throne.  Laughing
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Post by Kessel on Mon 31 Oct 2016, 1:11 am

@Saracene and @Frolickingfizzgig - I agree with you guys...the way redemption and Reylo will work is for Kylo to "see the light" (so to speak), give up everything he currently believes in when it comes to his motivations, goals and values. A sympathetic backstory is one thing, but alone, it's not enough. Kylo has gone pretty far in a very bad direction. He's going to have to do some very heavy emotional and narrative lifting. He'll have to go through hell to come back, not as punishment per se, but to make his return powerful and believable. He currently thinks he's too far gone (and he really has gone far down the wrong path), so he's likely to get worse (emotionally) before he gets better, but I think this story (including his dynamic with Rey) is setting him up to go through that significant and difficult process that will result in his redemption. It's never too late, but it really is up to him.

I get excited just thinking how amazingly well Adam could portray Kylo going through that process. So much more emotionally satisfying than just seeing Kylo get more evil.
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Post by Saracene on Mon 31 Oct 2016, 1:46 am

@FrolickingFizzgig wrote:That said, I think killing Han just made a ton of sense narratively. It set the story with new stakes. We're meant to wonder if he can be redeemed, but he is still Han and Leia's son, the last Skywalker, Han gave up his life and died loving him (and wanting him to return). As much as other "beast" characters might not have committed such heinous crimes they also did not have the same hugely important narrative background. It really does say a lot about where the story has to go (considering genre and target-audience). Kylo's characterization combined with his background is something people ignore all too often, as if he's just some random dark sider big bad who can be offed at the end of IX after he kills Snoke and usurps the throne.  Laughing
@FrolickingFizzgig

Kylo's important narrative background is pretty much the only reason why I think that a mutual romance between him and Rey is possible. Whereas I still would have picked him for a redemption storyline even if he wasn't Han and Leia's son, but still had the "pull to the light" scene. Any character who has this kind of scene in Star Wars can only go one way.

I agree that killing Han raises the stakes to a whole new level, thing is though, the story still needs to be emotionally satisfying for the audience who don't look at the stories from an analytical standpoint and don't really care about the narrative. And I think that where a big bulk of the audience is with Kylo at the moment is that they see him as Han's murderer rather than Han's son. They have no sense of Kylo being a part of the Skywalker family or a son of beloved characters, partly because the ST skipped over the characters' shared history (and partly because of the film's need to surprise the audience and making his heritage a reveal). That chunk of the audience needs reasons other than his heritage to find his redemption and a romance with Rey a satisfying story.
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Post by Gemini on Mon 31 Oct 2016, 2:13 am

Dudes. I'm getting the collectors edition blu Ray today!

Can't wait to hear what jj has to say about a ton of stuff

Did anyone see the reylo related stuff jj was talking about on the blu ray? Someone put it up on tumblr yesterday. There's quite a bit of reylo stuff he talks about.

Has anyone e posted it yet?


Last edited by Gemini on Mon 31 Oct 2016, 3:46 am; edited 1 time in total
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Post by Mana on Mon 31 Oct 2016, 2:17 am

@Gemini wrote:Dudes. I'm getting the collectors edition blu Ray today!

Can't eat to hear what jj has to say about a ton of stuff

Did anyone see the reylo related stuff jj was talking about on the blu ray? Someone put it up on tumblr yesterday. There's quite a bit of reylo stuff he talks about.

Has anyone e posted it yet?
@Gemini

yep we saw, we've been celebrating these past few hours!!!
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Post by Gemini on Mon 31 Oct 2016, 2:20 am

@Mana Lmao I saw just went back through the thread. It's worthy of celebration!

I saw it last night on tumblr and was happy then fell asleep cuz I was tired.

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