ARCHIVE: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings - 11

Page 39 of 40 Previous  1 ... 21 ... 38, 39, 40  Next

Go down

ARCHIVE: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings - 11 - Page 39 Empty Re: ARCHIVE: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings - 11

Post by motherofpearl1 on Mon 31 Oct 2016, 9:12 am

Ashgate never troubled me, possibly because I saw Kylo as mentally ill from the start, and it actually made me feel even more sympathy for him.
Or maybe it's just me... Twisted Evil
motherofpearl1
motherofpearl1
Force Ghost
Force Ghost

Messages : 2783
Likes : 11738
Date d'inscription : 2016-07-08

Back to top Go down

ARCHIVE: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings - 11 - Page 39 Empty Re: ARCHIVE: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings - 11

Post by vaderito on Mon 31 Oct 2016, 9:16 am

@motherofpearl1 wrote:Ashgate never troubled me, possibly because I saw Kylo as mentally ill from the start, and it actually made me feel even more sympathy for him.
Or maybe it's just me... Twisted Evil
@motherofpearl1

SW is a fairytale and characters in fairytales do fairly terrible things. Beast threatens to kill Belle's father if one of his daughters doesn't come to live with him. That's fairly terrible punishment over a simple theft.
vaderito
vaderito
Force Ghost
Force Ghost

Messages : 10337
Likes : 49927
Date d'inscription : 2016-03-25

Back to top Go down

ARCHIVE: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings - 11 - Page 39 Empty Re: ARCHIVE: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings - 11

Post by Xylo Ren on Mon 31 Oct 2016, 9:31 am

“The idea is that Rey is desperately trying to use this Force power that she just experienced with Kylo Ren and on the dim minds of a typical stormtrooper. She just feels that she could possibly, having just been in such a powerful mind, could overpower a weak one.”

Kylo awakened the force in her confirmed, tbh.
She learned how to use the force by being in his "powerful mind". Twisted Evil
We were even right about this....d*mn.
Xylo Ren
Xylo Ren
Force Ghost
Force Ghost

Messages : 2029
Likes : 18387
Date d'inscription : 2016-03-27

Back to top Go down

ARCHIVE: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings - 11 - Page 39 Empty Re: ARCHIVE: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings - 11

Post by IoJovi on Mon 31 Oct 2016, 9:34 am

@vaderito wrote:
@motherofpearl1 wrote:Ashgate never troubled me, possibly because I saw Kylo as mentally ill from the start, and it actually made me feel even more sympathy for him.
Or maybe it's just me... Twisted Evil
@motherofpearl1

SW is a fairytale and characters in fairytales do fairly terrible things. Beast threatens to kill Belle's father if one of his daughters doesn't come to live with him. That's fairly terrible punishment over a simple theft.
@vaderito

Same here - Ashgate never bothered me either. My reaction to all the hoopla was, "Well, it's not like that's the worst thing he's ever done..." Laughing

Still, it made others here think they had misinterpreted the character, so I can see that side to it...
IoJovi
IoJovi
Force Ghost
Force Ghost

Messages : 7289
Likes : 41504
Date d'inscription : 2016-03-25
Age : 103
Localisation : Atlanta, GA

Back to top Go down

ARCHIVE: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings - 11 - Page 39 Empty Re: ARCHIVE: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings - 11

Post by EchoBase on Mon 31 Oct 2016, 9:39 am

@Xylo Ren wrote:“The idea is that Rey is desperately trying to use this Force power that she just experienced with Kylo Ren and on the dim minds of a typical stormtrooper. She just feels that she could possibly, having just been in such a powerful mind, could overpower a weak one.”

Kylo awakened the force in her confirmed, tbh.
She learned how to use the force by being in his "powerful mind". Twisted Evil
We were even right about this....d*mn.
@Xylo Ren

Remember how Pablo once tweeted, when people wondered how Rey could be so powerful and use a Jedi mind trick, that she got it from
Kylo's head. But let me guess, he was lying back then, wasn't he?
EchoBase
EchoBase
Force Ghost
Force Ghost

Messages : 2804
Likes : 12535
Date d'inscription : 2016-04-01

Back to top Go down

ARCHIVE: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings - 11 - Page 39 Empty Re: ARCHIVE: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings - 11

Post by Gemini on Mon 31 Oct 2016, 9:43 am

@Xylo Ren wrote:“The idea is that Rey is desperately trying to use this Force power that she just experienced with Kylo Ren and on the dim minds of a typical stormtrooper. She just feels that she could possibly, having just been in such a powerful mind, could overpower a weak one.”

Kylo awakened the force in her confirmed, tbh.
She learned how to use the force by being in his "powerful mind". Twisted Evil
We were even right about this....d*mn.
@Xylo Ren

It's 2 completely different powers though.

One is mind reading

The other is mind control

She gets the courage and does something she beckons from within but what she does is not what she was doing with kylo.

That was battling to get inside his mind and read it. Not control his mind.
Gemini
Gemini
Force Ghost
Force Ghost

Messages : 2432
Likes : 10201
Date d'inscription : 2016-03-26

Back to top Go down

ARCHIVE: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings - 11 - Page 39 Empty Re: ARCHIVE: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings - 11

Post by BenRey on Mon 31 Oct 2016, 9:48 am

And to think I was dreading J.J.'s commentary. A part of me was convinced he would say something that would leave our ship in doubt. I couldn't have been more wrong. Very Happy
BenRey
BenRey
Jedi Knight
Jedi Knight

Messages : 547
Likes : 2982
Date d'inscription : 2016-04-27
Localisation : Planet Earth- Milky Way Galaxy

Back to top Go down

ARCHIVE: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings - 11 - Page 39 Empty Re: ARCHIVE: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings - 11

Post by ZioRen on Mon 31 Oct 2016, 9:48 am

@EchoBase wrote:
@Xylo Ren wrote:“The idea is that Rey is desperately trying to use this Force power that she just experienced with Kylo Ren and on the dim minds of a typical stormtrooper. She just feels that she could possibly, having just been in such a powerful mind, could overpower a weak one.”

Kylo awakened the force in her confirmed, tbh.
She learned how to use the force by being in his "powerful mind". Twisted Evil
We were even right about this....d*mn.
@Xylo Ren

Remember how Pablo once tweeted, when people wondered how Rey could be so powerful and use a Jedi mind trick, that she got it from
Kylo's head. But let me guess, he was lying back then, wasn't he?
@EchoBase

To be fair, nothing in the movie suggested that was the case at all. Even I was a bit surprised when Pablo said that, even when it made the scene make more sense.

And like Gemini says, mind reading and mind controlling/suggestion are different skills.


Last edited by ZioRen on Mon 31 Oct 2016, 9:49 am; edited 2 times in total
ZioRen
ZioRen
Force Ghost
Force Ghost

Messages : 2758
Likes : 18818
Date d'inscription : 2016-05-27

Back to top Go down

ARCHIVE: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings - 11 - Page 39 Empty Re: ARCHIVE: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings - 11

Post by Irina de France on Mon 31 Oct 2016, 9:49 am

So I've been out for day, and I come back in the middle of a huge party. What a nice surprise. Smile
Irina de France
Irina de France
Force Ghost
Force Ghost

Messages : 1947
Likes : 9601
Date d'inscription : 2016-04-22
Age : 23
Localisation : Ottawa, Canada

http://cosetteskywalker.tumblr.com

Back to top Go down

ARCHIVE: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings - 11 - Page 39 Empty Re: ARCHIVE: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings - 11

Post by Xylo Ren on Mon 31 Oct 2016, 9:59 am

Lol he literally just says that she is desperate to use the power she got from Kylo's mind. JJ's words, not mine.
Xylo Ren
Xylo Ren
Force Ghost
Force Ghost

Messages : 2029
Likes : 18387
Date d'inscription : 2016-03-27

Back to top Go down

ARCHIVE: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings - 11 - Page 39 Empty Re: ARCHIVE: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings - 11

Post by Gemini on Mon 31 Oct 2016, 10:02 am

But it's not the same thing. The power she has comes from defeating him, he says that. Defeats a strong mind so it's easy to defeat the storm troopers weak mind. Kylo never shows mind control power. Only mind reading and breaking into minds.
Gemini
Gemini
Force Ghost
Force Ghost

Messages : 2432
Likes : 10201
Date d'inscription : 2016-03-26

Back to top Go down

ARCHIVE: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings - 11 - Page 39 Empty Re: ARCHIVE: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings - 11

Post by Gemini on Mon 31 Oct 2016, 10:05 am

If kylo could control minds he wouldn't need to torture people for information.

Kylo awakens force powers In rey, I think that's all jj means. She defeats kylo and does something which kylo does not seem able to do.


Last edited by Gemini on Mon 31 Oct 2016, 10:07 am; edited 1 time in total
Gemini
Gemini
Force Ghost
Force Ghost

Messages : 2432
Likes : 10201
Date d'inscription : 2016-03-26

Back to top Go down

ARCHIVE: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings - 11 - Page 39 Empty Re: ARCHIVE: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings - 11

Post by IoJovi on Mon 31 Oct 2016, 10:05 am

@Xylo Ren wrote:Lol he literally just says that she is desperate to use the power she got from Kylo's mind. JJ's words, not mine.
@Xylo Ren

Pablo's words as well.  Someone had asked for an explanation of how Rey got so powerful so quickly, and his exact words were, "Wouldn't it be something if she got it from Kylo's head?"

That was also my first impression when I saw TFA for the first time.  

I also don't think the GFFA differentiates between Force powers in that way. If she took the power to read minds from Kylo's head, she also took the ability of the Jedi Mind Trick (JMT), which was his to begin with....


Last edited by IoJovi on Mon 31 Oct 2016, 10:07 am; edited 1 time in total
IoJovi
IoJovi
Force Ghost
Force Ghost

Messages : 7289
Likes : 41504
Date d'inscription : 2016-03-25
Age : 103
Localisation : Atlanta, GA

Back to top Go down

ARCHIVE: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings - 11 - Page 39 Empty Re: ARCHIVE: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings - 11

Post by ZioRen on Mon 31 Oct 2016, 10:06 am

@Xylo Ren wrote:Lol he literally just says that she is desperate to use the power she got from Kylo's mind. JJ's words, not mine.
@Xylo Ren

What I'm saying is that it isn't surprising that people didn't get that impression from the film, and that it took Pablo and JJ outright saying it to get it. There wasn't anything in the movie that suggested she got the mind trick idea from Kylo's mind. She just kind of did it.

@Gemini wrote:If kylo could control minds he wouldn't need to torture people for information.
@Gemini

I'm sure he can. It's just nearly impossible to do on strong-minded individuals. Especially other Force-sensitives.


Last edited by ZioRen on Mon 31 Oct 2016, 10:07 am; edited 1 time in total
ZioRen
ZioRen
Force Ghost
Force Ghost

Messages : 2758
Likes : 18818
Date d'inscription : 2016-05-27

Back to top Go down

ARCHIVE: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings - 11 - Page 39 Empty Re: ARCHIVE: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings - 11

Post by BastilaBey on Mon 31 Oct 2016, 10:06 am

@Iojovi I was going to say - from JJ's description, it doesn't sound as if he's particularly concerned about the differences between each type of force power, or mind reading vs mind controlling.
BastilaBey
BastilaBey
Force Ghost
Force Ghost

Messages : 2350
Likes : 23522
Date d'inscription : 2016-03-25

Back to top Go down

ARCHIVE: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings - 11 - Page 39 Empty Re: ARCHIVE: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings - 11

Post by vaderito on Mon 31 Oct 2016, 10:07 am

hard to believe that Kylo can't do mind control on weak minds just because he failed with a strong one. Qui Gonn also failed with everyone's favorite Toydarian Watto and Luke with Jabba.
vaderito
vaderito
Force Ghost
Force Ghost

Messages : 10337
Likes : 49927
Date d'inscription : 2016-03-25

Back to top Go down

ARCHIVE: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings - 11 - Page 39 Empty Re: ARCHIVE: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings - 11

Post by Gemini on Mon 31 Oct 2016, 10:10 am

I think kylo awakens her force power but that doesn't mean jj is saying that he gave her the ability to control minds. He just says she has powers, which we saw awakened when she was battling kylo. He then says she's able to defeat the stormtrooper because of her own strength. Not because of kylo. Literally says she does that because she overcame a powerful mind and so decides she can easily dominate a weak one.

She uses a completely different technique


Last edited by Gemini on Mon 31 Oct 2016, 10:13 am; edited 1 time in total
Gemini
Gemini
Force Ghost
Force Ghost

Messages : 2432
Likes : 10201
Date d'inscription : 2016-03-26

Back to top Go down

ARCHIVE: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings - 11 - Page 39 Empty Re: ARCHIVE: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings - 11

Post by BastilaBey on Mon 31 Oct 2016, 10:13 am

@gemini I don't think anyone is saying Kylo gave Rey the power, she had it already but was able to do things after being in Kylo's mind. It just allows her to figure out how to do it, and it comes even easier when dealing with a 'dim' stormtrooper mind compared to Kylo's. I like this stuff because it's add another layer of nuance to 'you need a teacher'. Dude, it's a little late for that, you've already been teaching her even though neither of you really realize it yet.
BastilaBey
BastilaBey
Force Ghost
Force Ghost

Messages : 2350
Likes : 23522
Date d'inscription : 2016-03-25

Back to top Go down

ARCHIVE: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings - 11 - Page 39 Empty Re: ARCHIVE: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings - 11

Post by vaderito on Mon 31 Oct 2016, 10:13 am

@Gemini wrote:I think kylo awakens her force power but that doesn't mean jj is saying that he gave her the ability to control minds. He just says she has powers, which we saw awakened when she was battling kylo. He then says she's able to defeat the stormtrooper because of her own strength. Not because of kylo.
@Gemini

he didn't give her the ability, she saw in his mind how to do it or at least that it could be done. Like, I've just read this guy's mind, and he's read mine, and see that he can make people do stuff so if my power is the same I shall be able to do it.
vaderito
vaderito
Force Ghost
Force Ghost

Messages : 10337
Likes : 49927
Date d'inscription : 2016-03-25

Back to top Go down

ARCHIVE: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings - 11 - Page 39 Empty Re: ARCHIVE: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings - 11

Post by Little_Boots on Mon 31 Oct 2016, 10:15 am

If every force user just started controlling everyone with the force to get what they want, we wouldn't have a story because there would be way too much power over absolutely everything. I'm reminded now of the complaints with Lord of the Rings and anyone who complained about the eagles. Yet if the eagles delivered the ring, there would be no story. And I am probably very confused and have no idea what's going on in this thread. Do I make sense?
Little_Boots
Little_Boots
Force Ghost
Force Ghost

Messages : 2148
Likes : 11372
Date d'inscription : 2016-03-26
Localisation : Ireland

Back to top Go down

ARCHIVE: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings - 11 - Page 39 Empty Re: ARCHIVE: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings - 11

Post by IoJovi on Mon 31 Oct 2016, 10:16 am

I want to add that if Rey didn't have her own agency in terms of her own Force powers, Kylo wouldn't have been able to "awaken" her in the first place, to allow her to get stuff from her head.

If that was the case, it could have just have easily been Poe that got back in his head and slashed his face...
IoJovi
IoJovi
Force Ghost
Force Ghost

Messages : 7289
Likes : 41504
Date d'inscription : 2016-03-25
Age : 103
Localisation : Atlanta, GA

Back to top Go down

ARCHIVE: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings - 11 - Page 39 Empty Re: ARCHIVE: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings - 11

Post by Gemini on Mon 31 Oct 2016, 10:17 am

Again it's taking away from rey if the only reason she does stuff is because kylo gives it to her. Its her own strength not kylos. Jj says that. Literally says that's how she overcomes the trooper.

Nothing in the film or from what jj just said imo suggests that the ability to control a mind comes from kylo. Her reading his mind, maybe?


Last edited by Gemini on Mon 31 Oct 2016, 10:18 am; edited 1 time in total
Gemini
Gemini
Force Ghost
Force Ghost

Messages : 2432
Likes : 10201
Date d'inscription : 2016-03-26

Back to top Go down

ARCHIVE: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings - 11 - Page 39 Empty Re: ARCHIVE: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings - 11

Post by Darth Dingbat on Mon 31 Oct 2016, 10:17 am

@Gemini wrote:I think kylo awakens her force power but that doesn't mean jj is saying that he gave her the ability to control minds. He just says she has powers, which we saw awakened when she was battling kylo. He then says she's able to defeat the stormtrooper because of her own strength. Not because of kylo.
@Gemini

And yet the problem remains that just about every Force sensitive in the history of Force sensitives has required extensive training in order to use the Force effectively - apart from the Ultimate Chosen One Gary Stu(tm), Anakin.

(And, an example from materials that are at least currently not canon, Vitiate and his daughter Vaylin, who were both Force prodigies, using the Force as little children.)
Darth Dingbat
Darth Dingbat
Force Ghost
Force Ghost

Messages : 4554
Likes : 30457
Date d'inscription : 2016-03-26

Back to top Go down

ARCHIVE: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings - 11 - Page 39 Empty Re: ARCHIVE: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings - 11

Post by ZioRen on Mon 31 Oct 2016, 10:20 am

@Gemini wrote:Again it's taking away from rey if the only reason she does stuff is because kylos shows her. Its her own strength not kylos. Jj says that.

Nothing in the film or from what jj just said imo suggests that the ability to control a mind comes from kylo. Her reading his mind, maybe?
@Gemini

I always thought they were saying that Rey discovered she was Force sensitive by fighting back, then found out she could do things like mindtricks with the Force by being in Kylo's mind and seeing what he can do. Not that he gives her the strength.

But if that's the case, the movie doesn't make it very clear. All it suggests is that Rey now knows she can use the Force because she just did it.

I honestly think it's still kind of a weak excuse. I understand the complaints about Rey doing that mind trick after just discovering she can use the Force at all. I don't let it ruin the movie for me like many people do, though.


Last edited by ZioRen on Mon 31 Oct 2016, 10:21 am; edited 1 time in total
ZioRen
ZioRen
Force Ghost
Force Ghost

Messages : 2758
Likes : 18818
Date d'inscription : 2016-05-27

Back to top Go down

ARCHIVE: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings - 11 - Page 39 Empty Re: ARCHIVE: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings - 11

Post by Maria Antonietta on Mon 31 Oct 2016, 10:21 am

@Little_Boots wrote:If every force user just started controlling everyone with the force to get what they want, we wouldn't have a story because there would be way too much power over absolutely everything. I'm reminded now of the complaints with Lord of the Rings and anyone who complained about the eagles. Yet if the eagles delivered the ring, there would be no story. And I am probably very confused and have no idea what's going on in this thread. Do I make sense?
@Little_Boots

OMG the eagle theory Very Happy
Maria Antonietta
Maria Antonietta
Force Ghost
Force Ghost

Messages : 2789
Likes : 12380
Date d'inscription : 2016-03-26
Age : 33
Localisation : Italia

Back to top Go down

Page 39 of 40 Previous  1 ... 21 ... 38, 39, 40  Next

Back to top


 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum