ARCHIVE: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings - 11

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Post by motherofpearl1 on Mon 31 Oct 2016, 10:21 am

@Gemini wrote:If kylo could control minds he wouldn't need to torture people for information.

Kylo awakens force powers In rey, I think that's all jj means. She defeats kylo and does something which kylo does not seem able to do.
@Gemini

Okay....
I think...that Poe was tortured first by Hux. I might be wrong but I got the impression Hux tried, and failed, so he had to call the 'mind reader'. Hux was standing outside Poe's cell when Kylo emerged, and JJ said there was a lot of rivalry between the two. Hux struck me as the type who'd only call on Ren when everything else had failed.

Off topic...but which disc is the commentary on- the blu ray or the 3D one?
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Post by Darth Dingbat on Mon 31 Oct 2016, 10:21 am

@Gemini wrote:Again it's taking away from rey if the only reason she does stuff is because kylo gives it to her. Its her own strength not kylos. Jj says that. Literally says that's how she overcomes the trooper.

Nothing in the film or from what jj just said imo suggests that the ability to control a mind comes from kylo. Her reading his mind, maybe?
@Gemini

Re: the bolded - how?? Every FS needs a teacher. Even Anakin needed a teacher. Anakin's raw power was a gazillion times stronger than Obi-Wan's "normal" FS talent, but he still needed someone to teach him.

The only way you can satisfactorily explain Rey's accelerated learning is that she reads Kylo's mind like a guidebook.
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Post by Gemini on Mon 31 Oct 2016, 10:22 am

The force power could just mean the force sensitivity awakened in her. Jj is not saying the mind trick comes from him. He says she does that herself from determination.
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Post by Gemini on Mon 31 Oct 2016, 10:25 am

@Darth Dingbat wrote:
@Gemini wrote:Again it's taking away from rey if the only reason she does stuff is because kylo gives it to her. Its her own strength not kylos. Jj says that. Literally says that's how she overcomes the trooper.

Nothing in the film or from what jj just said imo suggests that the ability to control a mind comes from kylo. Her reading his mind, maybe?
@Gemini

Re: the bolded - how?? Every FS needs a teacher. Even Anakin needed a teacher. Anakin's raw power was a gazillion times stronger than Obi-Wan's "normal" FS talent, but he still needed someone to teach him.

The only way you can satisfactorily explain Rey's accelerated learning is that she reads Kylo's mind like a guidebook.
@Darth Dingbat

Except what she sees is his grandad issues. Awfully quick moment to look through all his force powers and learn them as well as his deepest fear

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Post by vaderito on Mon 31 Oct 2016, 10:25 am

I honestly don't get a circular argument here. Rey awakened in the Force at the moment of performing that MF trick. kylo sensed it. becomes obsessed with 'the girl". he may not be 100% sure she was the awakening (he will be when she picks up the saber) but he is suspicious. he knows that the droid and the traitor are not the awakening. So he captures rey and reads her mind. She resists and while resisting discovers she can read his. Again, she's come to that on her own. Than she's seen in his mind what else he could do and applied it. Again, she's come to that on her own. I honestly don't get it where the concern that her agency is compromised is coming from. How's ability to learn quickly from someone's mind and than applying what's learned a compromised agency, anti-feminist or whatever? You know what's anti-feminist and compromised agency? Insisting that rey must be Reylated to a powerful OT character to have any value and importance. I keep hearing that all the time. What's her purpose, what's her importance if she isn't _________(insert OT icon of choice) daughter? Rey being Rey somehow isn't good enough, and, IMO, that's really wrong thinking. really wrong.
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Post by ZioRen on Mon 31 Oct 2016, 10:26 am

@Gemini wrote:The force power could just mean the force sensitivity awakened in her. Jj is not saying the mind trick comes from him. He says she does that herself from determination.
@Gemini

I don't think you're getting what we're saying. People are saying the reason she can do the mind trick isn't because Kylo gave her the capability. It's because Kylo's mind taught her that Force sensitives can do these things, so she tried it herself. It gave her the knowledge, not the ability.

I still don't think the movie made this clear, but that's what Pablo and JJ seemed to be saying.


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Post by motherofpearl1 on Mon 31 Oct 2016, 10:27 am

It seemed to me that Kylo unwittingly 'opened a door' when he got into Rey's head.
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Post by Gemini on Mon 31 Oct 2016, 10:29 am

We are just interpreting what jj says differently. I don't think it's suggesting that she learned the Jedi mind trick from him. I think he just means awakened powers he caused. He then clearly implies that defeating the stormtrooper is from her own strength. Kylo can't seem to control minds. Not by what we are given in tfa. He may know about it though of course. Like I don't think that her ability to do it successfully comes from him. I don't think he can do it.


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Post by Little_Boots on Mon 31 Oct 2016, 10:29 am

@motherofpearl1 wrote:It seemed to me that Kylo unwittingly 'opened a door' when he got into Rey's head.
@motherofpearl1

Yea, he opened a door a little wider. Also Rey says to Han "the Jedi were real"! So she must have heard tales of their ways. Maybe the force power she used on the trooper was just something that she heard about before. Oh hey, I'll try that legendary trick!
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Post by Darth Dingbat on Mon 31 Oct 2016, 10:31 am

@Gemini wrote:We are just interpreting what jj says differently. I don't think it's suggesting that she learned the Jedi mind trick from him. I think he just means awakened powers he caused. He then clearly implies that defeating the stormtrooper is from her own strength. Kylo can't seem to control minds. Not by what we are given in tfa. He may know about it though of course. Like I don't think that her ability to do it successfully comes from him. I don't think he can do it.
@Gemini

But who did she learn the mind trick from, then? That's the question.
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Post by ZioRen on Mon 31 Oct 2016, 10:32 am

@Gemini wrote:We are just interpreting what jj says differently. I don't think it's suggesting that she learned the Jedi mind trick from him. I think he just means awakened powers he caused. He then clearly implies that defeating the stormtrooper is from her own strength. Kylo can't seem to control minds. Not by what we are given in tfa. He may no about it though of course. Like I don't think that her ability to do it successfully comes from him.
@Gemini

We have no reason to think he can't. This seems to be a thing Jedi learn, and he definitely would have learned. We just don't see him do it because the only people he would have wanted to do it with in TFA were probably too strong-minded for it to work.

Again, nobody is saying it's not from her own strength or that the ability comes from Kylo. But there's no real reason Rey would ever think she could control someone's mind unless she saw that she could. In this case, she saw that Force sensitives have the ability to do these things by being in Kylo's mind.


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Post by IoJovi on Mon 31 Oct 2016, 10:32 am

@vaderito wrote:I honestly don't get a circular argument here. Rey awakened in the Force at the moment of performing that MF trick. kylo sensed it. becomes obsessed with 'the girl". he may not be 100% sure she was the awakening (he will be when she picks up the saber) but he is suspicious. he knows that the droid and the traitor are not the awakening. So he captures rey and reads her mind. She resists and while resisting discovers she can read his. Again, she's come to that on her own. Than she's seen in his mind what else he could do and applied it. Again, she's come to that on her own. I honestly don't get it where the concern that her agency is compromised is coming from. How's ability to learn quickly from someone's mind and than applying what's learned a compromised agency, anti-feminist or whatever? You know what's anti-feminist and compromised agency? Insisting that rey must be Reylated to a powerful OT character to have any value and importance. I keep hearing that all the time. What's her purpose, what's her importance if she isn't _________(insert OT icon of choice) daughter? Rey being Rey somehow isn't good enough, and, IMO, that's really wrong thinking. really wrong.
@vaderito

Agreed. Whether she's Rey Random, Rey Prana or Rey Kenobi should have no bearing on who she is as a character. Rey random doesn't suddenly make Kylo that much more important because he's the one with the bloodline. What it does do is reveal his redemption if she isn't a Skywalker by blood, which is what I'm here for in the first place. Meanwhile, Rey will be special in her own right.
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Post by Little_Boots on Mon 31 Oct 2016, 10:33 am

@Darth Dingbat wrote:
@Gemini wrote:We are just interpreting what jj says differently. I don't think it's suggesting that she learned the Jedi mind trick from him. I think he just means awakened powers he caused. He then clearly implies that defeating the stormtrooper is from her own strength. Kylo can't seem to control minds. Not by what we are given in tfa. He may know about it though of course. Like I don't think that her ability to do it successfully comes from him. I don't think he can do it.
@Gemini

But who did she learn the mind trick from, then? That's the question.
@Darth Dingbat

Being told stories of their tricks?..... . Maybe intuition?
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Post by Gemini on Mon 31 Oct 2016, 10:33 am

well to do it successfully, that comes from her @Darth dingbat

I don't think her success at it has anything to do with kylo. It's all rey rey rey and her own abilities.

Kylo could just tell her/poe to stay seated instead of needing to tie people up if he could do it.


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Post by Darth Dingbat on Mon 31 Oct 2016, 10:34 am

@Little_Boots wrote:
@Darth Dingbat wrote:
@Gemini wrote:We are just interpreting what jj says differently. I don't think it's suggesting that she learned the Jedi mind trick from him. I think he just means awakened powers he caused. He then clearly implies that defeating the stormtrooper is from her own strength. Kylo can't seem to control minds. Not by what we are given in tfa. He may know about it though of course. Like I don't think that her ability to do it successfully comes from him. I don't think he can do it.
@Gemini

But who did she learn the mind trick from, then? That's the question.
@Darth Dingbat

Being told stories of their tricks?..... . Maybe intuition?
@Little_Boots

Well, if it's that easy, then why did the padawans need masters at all, is all I'm saying.
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Post by ZioRen on Mon 31 Oct 2016, 10:34 am

@Gemini wrote:well to do it successfully, that comes from her @Darth dingbat

I don't think her success at it has anything to do with kylo. It's all rey rey rey
@Gemini

Not success. Not ability. Purely the knowledge that she can do these things. That's all. Nobody just KNOWS they can do things like that.

I can't interpret Pablo's comment any other way, since I believe it was a direct reply to someone asking how Rey knew she could mind trick the stormtrooper.


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Post by Darth Dingbat on Mon 31 Oct 2016, 10:36 am

@Gemini wrote:well to do it successfully, that comes from her @Darth dingbat

I don't think her success at it has anything to do with kylo. It's all rey rey rey
@Gemini

I don't think anyone is arguing that Kylo helped Rey to do the mind trick and to escape. Nor did Kylo "awaken" the Force in her, IMO, because she did things before in the film without knowing how she accomplished them. She was already Force-sensitive. The only question is where she got the knowledge to learn the mind trick; not whether her talents are somehow due to Kylo.
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Post by BastilaBey on Mon 31 Oct 2016, 10:36 am

JJ actually seems to emphasize how unfamiliar Rey is with anything about the force. She's never seen a lightsaber before, she thinks Luke Skywalker is a myth (and originally was going to have never even heard of him). It's fully possible that Maz is the first force-sensitive person Rey meets and Kylo is the first person she sees using force powers. It doesn't mean she gets the power itself from him, she just learns from her experience of having her mind read and then being able to read his in turn. That's a far more satisfactory explanation than 'MARY SUE, REY IS A MARY SUE'.
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Post by IoJovi on Mon 31 Oct 2016, 10:36 am

@ZioRen wrote:
@Gemini wrote:well to do it successfully, that comes from her @Darth dingbat

I don't think her success at it has anything to do with kylo. It's all rey rey rey
@Gemini

Not success. Not ability. Purely the knowledge that she can do these things. That's all. Nobody just KNOWS they can do things like that.
@ZioRen

Exactly that. And it makes the You Need A Teacher line all that much more ironic - because that's what he's been doing all along and I doubt he even realizes it...
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Post by Gemini on Mon 31 Oct 2016, 10:37 am

@darth dingbat

Well the knowledge of the trick was passed on to obibwan by his teacher but did that mean qui gon could do it?

Nope. He was awful at it. He was the master and could not do it

The strength comes from the individual
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Post by ZioRen on Mon 31 Oct 2016, 10:39 am

@Gemini wrote:@darth dingbat

Well the knowledge of the trick was passed in to obibwan but did that mean qui gon could do it?

Nope. He was awful at it. He was the master and could not do it
@Gemini

I think it's implied that he normally can. He just tried it on strong-minded individuals (deceptively strong-minded, in Watto's case) and failed, which was played for laughs.

And again. Nobody gave Rey the strength. Just knowledge. I'm getting kind of frustrated here because I don't know how else I can put this. Laughing

As for Kylo not being able to tell Rey and Poe to sit, it's super hard to mindtrick people who are strong-minded. You don't have to be Force-sensitive to have a strong mind, and doing that is different than pushing forcefully into someone's mind. Though he probably could have just frozen them in their seats for a period of time. I guess why waste the energy doing that, though.


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Post by Gemini on Mon 31 Oct 2016, 10:42 am

Poe was easy to break and not force sensitive, kylo could have easily told him to just sit if he could control minds but nope, had to tie him up.
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