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Post by snufkin on Mon 28 Nov - 21:23

So instead of asking the Story Group about Reylo, Beauty and the Beast, character motivations, names of planet et ceterta on Twitter, maybe instead start asking/advocating about the lack of women of directors and KK's most recent statements that women directors "aren't ready yet?"  Especially because the director of IX made his first movie for $750,000 US and then got promoted to overseeing multi-million dollar budgeted franchises?  WTF the time isn't right yet? KK you're killing the admiration I had for you as a business leader :(

Lucasfilm Will Hire Female ‘Star Wars’ Director ‘When the Time Is Right,’ But We’re Tired of Waiting  Read More: Lucasfilm Still Can’t Find the Right Woman for ‘Star Wars’

Kathleen Kennedy Doesn't Think There Are Any Women Directors 'Experienced' Enough To Direct 'Star Wars'. Um...

Kathleen Kennedy Says Female Directors Don’t Have Enough Experience for ‘Star Wars’ George Lucas, Irvin Kirshner and Richard Marquand didn't have blockbuster experience either, so what gives?

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Post by Saracene on Mon 28 Nov - 21:51

@snufkin That does sound pretty bad. To be fair though, a female director for a Star Wars movie would bear the load of scrutiny and expectations like no male director would have to face - a male director doing SW is not an "event" or watershed moment or what have you. So with a female director the pressure to succeed is so much bigger which would make people in charge much more cautious.
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Post by Maria Antonietta on Mon 28 Nov - 21:57

@Saracene wrote:@snufkin That does sound pretty bad. To be fair though, a female director for a Star Wars movie would bear the load of scrutiny and expectations like no male director would have to face - a male director doing SW is not an "event" or watershed moment or what have you. So with a female director the pressure to succeed is so much bigger which would make people in charge much more cautious.
@Saracene

true. same sitthy thing they say about Rey. There are a lot of female directors like Sofia Coppola or Michelle Mclaren from XFiles and Breaking Bad and many others..
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Post by snufkin on Mon 28 Nov - 22:00

@Saracene - that's what it sounds like KK is saying, they want a situation that's as low risk as possible because of the amount of scrutiny/double standards a female director would face. But if she's advocating across the board within the company she leads to put more women into lead roles and behind the cameras, at some point she also should take the risk. Because right now nobody else is doing it and until somebody does it, things aren't going to change. I can understand it from a business perspective, especially in a high risk industries. There's no incentive to do something that challenges or changes the status quo because of the potential loss to shareholders, you at least wait for somebody else to test the waters first. But again, she has the spotlight and has made this a centerpiece of her leadership of Lucasfilm, so she needs to step up.
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Post by Mana on Mon 28 Nov - 22:07

I think KK once said that she gets bombarded by male directors, begging to let them direct a Star Wars movie, but never once did she get a call from a female director. It doesn't matter how great and experienced you are as a director if you don't have the passion for the franchise, you're not going to get the job.
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Post by snufkin on Mon 28 Nov - 22:09

@Mana wrote:I think KK once said that she gets bombarded by male directors, begging to let them direct a Star Wars movie, but never once did she get a call from a female director. It doesn't matter how great and experienced you are as a director if you don't have the passion for the franchise, you're not going to get the job.
@Mana

Well yeah, because it's been codified in our society as a "guy" thing. But it's like every other type of pipeline (I work in IT) where the excuse is always that the women don't promote themselves. At some point, you have to start dismantling the systems which have self selected it to be skewed towards men. It's the same BS you always hear from Silicon Valley about the %s of women and minorities in leadership roles.
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Post by Mana on Mon 28 Nov - 22:19

@snufkin wrote:
@Mana wrote:I think KK once said that she gets bombarded by male directors, begging to let them direct a Star Wars movie, but never once did she get a call from a female director. It doesn't matter how great and experienced you are as a director if you don't have the passion for the franchise, you're not going to get the job.  
@Mana

Well yeah, because it's been codified in our society as a "guy" thing. But it's like every other type of pipeline (I work in IT) where the excuse is always that the women don't promote themselves. At some point, you have to start dismantling the systems which have self selected it to be skewed towards men. It's the same BS you always hear from Silicon Valley about the %s of women and minorities in leadership roles.
@snufkin

Well, you DO have to promote yourself in the entertainment industry...its a reflection of how passionate you are about what you do...
more and more women are becoming involved and interested in the franchise..their new hero is a woman, the Lucasfilm storygroup are mostly women, and the president of Lucasfilm and the brand manager of the franchise is a woman...the next step will probably be a female director
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Post by snufkin on Mon 28 Nov - 23:40

Let's hope that's the next step.

Female Directors Don't Need 'Experience' -- They Just Need To Get Hired

even in a best-case-scenario situation, the female-fronted franchise goes from having a female writer and female director to having men penning and directing the next two chapters. And no one is rushing to give the director of said $591 million-grossing hit another big (or even mid-sized) movie. This is all why Kennedy’s objectively logical comments stung this past weekend.

Yes, it makes sense that you don’t give a relative novice the keys to a Star Wars-sized franchise. But Hollywood has had no problem giving male directors with little to no experience the keys to any number of Star Wars-sized franchises with little change in attitudes no matter what the result. In the meantime, too few people with power are willing to just do what Ava DuVernay (who Disney hired to helm A Wrinkle in Time) did with the first season of Queen Sugar or what Melissa Rosenberg plans with the second season of Jessica Jones and just hire a full slate of female directors with the same expectation of competence afforded to male filmmakers.

Oh, and because it doesn’t have to be a zero sum game or a headline news event, Fox’s terrific Pitch has had female helmers for three of its eight episodes thus far. There are countless female directors out there with varying levels of experience, and they don’t need mentoring, workshops, or in-depth studies highlighting the painfully obvious disparities to be able to take that swing. They just need to be hired with the understanding that they will most likely deliver at least something as worthwhile as the countless good-to-mediocre male filmmakers working on any number of various movies.

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Post by BastilaBey on Mon 28 Nov - 23:48

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Post by snufkin on Tue 29 Nov - 0:07

@BastilaBey

Yes! You see the "nobody applied" excuse in so many industries, but with film the bigger issue is that they're comfortable with the risk of handing a large project over to a male director with minimal experience under his belt. Versus when that's done with a female director (Karen Kusama and Catherine Hardwick come to mind), one mistake or underperformance and they're sent back to the minor leagues. If people want to engage with the Story Group from LF on Twitter, this is a topic that they should be asking about more, not about parallels to other Disney movies or shipping.
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Post by ISeeAnIsland on Tue 29 Nov - 0:13

@snufkin wrote:
@BastilaBey

Yes! You see the "nobody applied" excuse in so many industries, but with film the bigger issue is that they're comfortable with the risk of handing a large project over to a male director with minimal experience under his belt. Versus when that's done with a female director (Karen Kusama and Catherine Hardwick come to mind), one mistake or underperformance and they're sent back to the minor leagues. If people want to engage with the Story Group from LF on Twitter, this is a topic that they should be asking about more, not about parallels to other Disney movies or shipping.
@snufkin

This is the same as corporate America. There have been tons of studies evaluating the performance reviews of men vs. women, looking at critical comments, who gets promoted, etc.

It's pretty much established that men get promotions and opportunities based on potential, while women get promotions and opportunities based on past performance.
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Post by Saracene on Tue 29 Nov - 0:26

Sadly I don't think that the first step will come from Disney, which is as safe as they come despite the noise they make about diversity. It's also not just KK's call to make, I suspect.

I think that the best chance might be a SW spin-off that's centred on a female character... how likely that is to happen is a different question again. How long did it take to make a Wonder Woman movie??
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Post by Mana on Tue 29 Nov - 0:39

@snufkin wrote:
@BastilaBey

Yes! You see the "nobody applied" excuse in so many industries, but with film the bigger issue is that they're comfortable with the risk of handing a large project over to a male director with minimal experience under his belt. Versus when that's done with a female director (Karen Kusama and Catherine Hardwick come to mind), one mistake or underperformance and they're sent back to the minor leagues. If people want to engage with the Story Group from LF on Twitter, this is a topic that they should be asking about more, not about parallels to other Disney movies or shipping.
@snufkin

The thing is, if most women see Star Wars as a 'guy thing', you're going to have to get women interested in directing a Star Wars movie...they have to love Star Wars...in the interview that I watched, KK was saying She COULD have gotten a female director, but she can't force someone who's not interested in the franchise to be committed to it...that's just what she said.
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Post by BastilaBey on Tue 29 Nov - 0:40

This is the thing. KK sounds like she's acutely aware of the extra scrutiny the first female star wars director would be subjected to, as unjust as that is. Is there someone who *wants* to be first - knowing that if the film isn't perfect, it runs the risk of jeopardizing their entire career? That's not even mentioning that if it bombs, sexist pigs everywhere can point to it as 'proof' that women need to stay away from their precious star wars.
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Post by Mana on Tue 29 Nov - 0:54

The thing is, it HAS to happen, there WILL be a woman directing Star Wars in the future. A woman who loves Star Wars and has a vision will pluck up the courage to do it one day and fanboys will just have to get over it...if it bombs it bombs, if not, great. There will always be people ready to point fingers and criticize and insult when the time comes.
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Post by Rimfaxe96 on Tue 29 Nov - 0:56

Frankly, unless someone who creates the original content (let's say a book author like J. K. Rowling) personally demands a female director gets the job, it won't happen. The only jobs in the higher leagues of the filming industry for women are actors/models, pretty faces to look at. Look at a few interviews of Jennifer Lawrence and you get quite a good picture how a woman really has to function if she doesn't want to be taken advantage of; ideally an aggressive top dog with (metaphorical) bite to her who won't give two sh!ts about being called names or being talked about behind her back.

That's why I can't wait to get a job after university and stuff. I'll gladly make my competition squirm if that's what it takes. Girl power
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Post by snufkin on Tue 29 Nov - 3:43

tl:dr - #smashthepatriarchy. Seriously though, TFA made cashola and R1 appears to also be on track to make cashola. So it's not like they're in danger of having a flop that derails the entire business enterprise. And it's Star Wars, so there's going to be jerks (sexist pigs and others) complaining about how somebody didn't do justice to "their precious star wars" (credit to @BastilaBey). It's just really disappointing to hear it coming from KK after she's been pushing for more women behind the camera and has talked about how she got her start as a TV camera operator because a TV station in the city where she attended university was forced to hire women to work in technical positions because of a lawsuit.
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Post by CienaRee on Tue 29 Nov - 3:54

@snufkin wrote:tl:dr - #smashthepatriarchy. Seriously though, TFA made cashola and R1 appears to also be on track to make cashola. So it's not like they're in danger of having a flop that derails the entire business enterprise. And it's Star Wars, so there's going to be jerks (sexist pigs and others) complaining about how somebody didn't do justice to "their precious star wars" (credit to @BastilaBey). It's just really disappointing to hear it coming from KK after she's been pushing for more women behind the camera and has talked about how she got her start as a TV camera operator because a TV station in the city where she attended university was forced to hire women to work in technical positions because of a lawsuit.
@snufkin
Yeah,look at GL the PT are hated by so many fans yet that hasn't done anything to GL's reputation as a director especially when it comes to the OT.Hell,some fans actually want him to direct episode 9.
I mean I understand promoting yourself but if the female directors are aware that they have to ''prove''themselves as directors so  that LF can hire them for the job when male directors don't need to do that why bother trying.

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Post by Rei of Sunshine on Tue 29 Nov - 5:46

It is very different for women and men in any industry. And yes as mentioned above women tend to be judged based on experience and previous works, while men are judged on potential. But yes, as a woman it is VERY important to promote yourself or you will be overshadowed by the men around you.  I experience this is the art world. I want to be an art conservator and I have apprenticed in a few church restorarion projects and the work environment is a sausage fest. The major task is to paint the ceilings of the church atop a 50ft scaffolding. My project manager asked me way too many times if I can do the job and I said yes. But eventually he designated me to painting the wooden saint sculptures instead. I was judged for being 'delicate' and 'fragile'. But in reality I have climbed way too many trees and fences and I love heights. It wouldn't have been a challenge. But he chose to assign the guys, some who were even too old to be climbing up bamboo scaffolds without harness. I knew that I wouldnt get anywhere if I just sat around and followed orders. Just last week we had a national art biennale in our city and one of the guests was an elderly lady known for being a conservation master in our country. I threw my shame aside and I introduced myself to her and told her how much I admired her work and would love to be an apprentice for her. We got to talking, and now I'm slated for a summer apprenticeship with her workshop.

Not to brag about that. But I very much understand how Promotion will always help a woman in her career. As a woman KK knows that. But as a business woman who targets efficiency, she may need to look past gender to achieve what the company is looking for. 

Men promote themselves all the time, but it is easier for them to be recognized anyway and their work to be appreciated without gender bias. Same reason why Joanne Rowling opted to go by J.K. Rowling for publishing. Because little boys tend not to buy books written by a woman. 

It is still more difficult for us women and we have to work double. But KK doesn't do this because she thinks women directors are not good. But maybe because she wants them to realize what they could do if they only ask. She wants them to look for opportunities themselves and not just to wait and be called on.  

TFA just might be her calling card for them. "Hey I have a really interesting female leading character. Collin Trevorrow isn't really set in stone yet, wanna call me sometime?"
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Post by SoloSideCousin on Tue 29 Nov - 8:56

@Rei of Sunshine wrote:It is very different for women and men in any industry. And yes as mentioned above women tend to be judged based on experience and previous works, while men are judged on potential. But yes, as a woman it is VERY important to promote yourself or you will be overshadowed by the men around you.  I experience this is the art world. I want to be an art conservator and I have apprenticed in a few church restorarion projects and the work environment is a sausage fest. The major task is to paint the ceilings of the church atop a 50ft scaffolding. My project manager asked me way too many times if I can do the job and I said yes. But eventually he designated me to painting the wooden saint sculptures instead. I was judged for being 'delicate' and 'fragile'. But in reality I have climbed way too many trees and fences and I love heights. It wouldn't have been a challenge. But he chose to assign the guys, some who were even too old to be climbing up bamboo scaffolds without harness. I knew that I wouldnt get anywhere if I just sat around and followed orders. Just last week we had a national art biennale in our city and one of the guests was an elderly lady known for being a conservation master in our country. I threw my shame aside and I introduced myself to her and told her how much I admired her work and would love to be an apprentice for her. We got to talking, and now I'm slated for a summer apprenticeship with her workshop.

Not to brag about that. But I very much understand how Promotion will always help a woman in her career. As a woman KK knows that. But as a business woman who targets efficiency, she may need to look past gender to achieve what the company is looking for. 

Men promote themselves all the time, but it is easier for them to be recognized anyway and their work to be appreciated without gender bias. Same reason why Joanne Rowling opted to go by J.K. Rowling for publishing. Because little boys tend not to buy books written by a woman. 

It is still more difficult for us women and we have to work double. But KK doesn't do this because she thinks women directors are not good. But maybe because she wants them to realize what they could do if they only ask. She wants them to look for opportunities themselves and not just to wait and be called on.  

TFA just might be her calling card for them. "Hey I have a really interesting female leading character. Collin Trevorrow isn't really set in stone yet, wanna call me sometime?"
@Rei of Sunshine

Congratulations @Rei of Sunshine on "going for it" and succeeding! That's an inspiration to all of us, because women really do need to assert themselves more.  As a general rule, we are taught to be ladylike, sometimes consciously, sometimes unconsciously.  My mother-in-law sometimes thinks in "old school" ladylike terms, and I generally don't care for it when she imparts these lessons to my daughter ... not because I want my daughter to eat with her hands, but because there is a whole culture that goes with being "ladylike" that involves being quiet, non-controversial and at it's most basic level serving men plates of food, but men generally not serving women.  It leads to women doing all the holiday dishes while men watch football.  Thankfully, (from my point of view), I was not raised in that kind of environment.  (My Dad did the dishes and went to store and ran all the errands while my Mom controlled all the money ... being Irish-Catholic-American a lot of traditional gender roles are subverted due to history in Ireland and the history of immigration).  Therefore, she doesn't see traditional gender roles in her own house.  There is certainly nothing wrong with a woman being the chief cook and serving her family proudly and performing any number of traditional roles, but if the woman is not an equal with asserting her power in that household, the kids really pick up on that.

But the thing is ... those lessons are still being imparted to kids everyday.  Girls can't be pushy.  They can't be loud.  All this kind of nonsense.  I think it's helped me to come from a rather loud-mouthed family that has only been in the US a couple generations.  I actually think the immigrant experience is a good analogy.  Nobody hands immigrants anything.  It's been like that since the beginning of the American Republic, but somehow all kinds of groups got a place at the table, and it wasn't because someone was nice.  It's because they proved themselves time and again.  Pooling money together, working like dogs, starting little businesses, founding unions and religious institutions, founding their own schools and insurance companies, some facing discrimination to this day ... but they are at the table ... and again they are not at the table because someone was nice ... because in the end humanity holds on tight in a world of limited resources ... but instead they are there because they proved themselves over and over and over again, because the old guard has no choice but to have them at the table because the outsider has now become important and indispensible. 

Racism, sexism, xeno and homophobia are going to exist ... and they exist like crazy in Hollywood, for all their talk.  But Hollywood is cruel to everyone on all levels.  Some will definitely have an easier path and some groups need trailblazers more than others, but *no one* has an easy path in that business.  You're much more likely to get hired by Silicon Valley or make millions and live in Manhattan or London than be contracted to direct a major motion picture.  There are tons of film graduates.  We never hear of most of them.  But I bet the ones we do hear of were all doggedly assertive in their own ways.  No question some groups will have to kick in twice or thrice or ten times as many doors as others, and it's not fair.  But nothing in that business is particularly fair.

KK has been in the business for years, starting during some very "old boys club" times.  I cannot even imagine the crap she must have experienced and witnessed in that industry.  She knows firsthand how brutal that business can be.  She knows how any director of a SW film will be scrutinized.  (Just wait for all the howling and wailing from certain quarters when RJ decides to make Episode VIII complicated and Kylo not be evil incarnate).  If you're not willing to be assertive enough to call her for the job, (she has said more than once that no woman called her), then what does that say about (1) your passion for the project ... something you absolutely need for a franchise like this, and (2) how will you weather the s***storm when a chunk of the audience thinks you've ruined their lives when you didn't even make the call.

There are women out there. Kathryn Bigelow.  Michelle McClaren. Ava DuVernay (who now has a Marvel project and helped on TFA).  None of them called.  I imagine those three probably didn't have passion for the project.  I also imagine that there are amazing women talents that do have passion for SW ... but they need to make the call ... just like Rei went up to the KK of her industry.  And I imagine that some didn't make the call because of ingrained lessons about being a "too pushy" as a woman.  When women stop worrying about that, they will still need to kick down doors, but they will kick them down faster.


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Post by Mana on Tue 29 Nov - 9:29

Oh man, I relate to all this so much. When I was younger, I wanted to be a scientist, but of course my parents thought that it wasn't a suitable profession for a woman. After many fights and arguments, they decided that they would let me follow my dreams. But then I flunked my first chemistry exam, more fights ensued where my dad told me that the exam was proof I wasn't up to studying science. 10 years on, I'm now a science grad student. My parents are proud of me now, and it turns out that they were just afraid that I wouldn't succeed. If I learned anything from all this, it's to never ever give in to anyone, sometimes your own worst enemy is you and your own insecurities. But as women we've certainly come a long way, there are more women in my master's program than men.
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Post by Xylo Ren on Sat 3 Dec - 23:41

So no one has posted this on here yet...interesting...

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Is this a Twitter trend I don't know about? Pictures of thread?
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Post by Guest on Sat 3 Dec - 23:48

@Xylo Ren The whole thing seemed to be some sort of in-joke between Star Wars insiders. I think they've all been together at Skywalker Ranch for a screening of Rogue One.

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Post by EchoBase on Sat 3 Dec - 23:56

Maybe they were talking about "threads". Very Happy
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ARCHIVE: Discussion: Tweets/Instagram - 8 - Page 6 Empty Re: ARCHIVE: Discussion: Tweets/Instagram - 8

Post by Kyla Ren on Sun 4 Dec - 0:02

@Xylo Ren wrote:So no one has posted this on here yet...interesting...

ARCHIVE: Discussion: Tweets/Instagram - 8 - Page 6 Tumblr_ohmmmuFqdv1v2ihz0o3_540
ARCHIVE: Discussion: Tweets/Instagram - 8 - Page 6 Tumblr_ohmmmuFqdv1v2ihz0o1_400

Is this a Twitter trend I don't know about? Pictures of thread?
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Maybe it's the Red String of Fate that binds Reylo together. Smile
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