ARCHIVE: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings - 13

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Post by Reynak on Sun 04 Dec 2016, 5:30 pm

@Darth Dingbat wrote:There was one thing that occurred to me earlier, btw, when I read that Phantasm is one of JJ's favourite films and he named Phasma after that film.

I haven't seen that film yet myself (only clips of it), but from the plot description I understood that the protagonist is a young boy who has nightmares and becomes aware of an evil in a small town, but nobody believes him at first. The boy even tries to investigate and confront the evil on his own, and almost gets himself killed in the process, before anyone believes him.

So I wondered if Kylo's backstory might be something vaguely similar. Snoke was there, lurking in the shadows, but that doesn't necessarily mean Snoke was secretly corrupting Ben since childhood. Trying to, perhaps. But it could be young Ben was aware of the evil threat but nobody took his fears seriously enough - or misunderstood them as disturbing signs in his own personality. Perhaps he had visions and nightmares. Perhaps he eventually thought nobody else could understand there was something seriously wrong in the galaxy, and decided to deal with the threat himself, with disastrous consequences.

Anyway, something like that would certainly make an adolescent feel misunderstood and abandoned without making the parents actively neglectful (because they simply didn't understand what was really going on) but also without turning the boy into a bad seed who was tempted by darkness since childhood (because he was actually scared of it and wanted to stop it).

P.S. I see the film is available on Youtube! I might just watch it tonight Wink Not that I think it's a direct influence or anything, but I was curious to hear that JJ admires the film so much that he produced the restored version of it. And if Phasma was named after it, that does at least connect the film to TFA indirectly... Razz

@Darth Dingbat

I think a very good reason for "betraying" his family and becoming Dark is necessary, showing he was brainwashed or a sad past in which he felt abandoned won't be eonough to gain the GA's empathy and will to forgive him, that's why I think he has a goal worth the ultimate sacrifiece of damnation for him. He decided to make a sacrifice so big he begs his grandfather for support and guidance to go on his path of torment. Why torment? Because there's Light in him and must ignore it if he wants to achieve his goal. There's no middle ground here, he thinks he can achieve it only after becomoing full Dark. I say torment because his cause may be just ( he truly believes it is) but he's aware his actions are evil although necessary. So he doesn't think redemption or forgiveness is possible, he is convinced it isn't but he has to do anything for this cause.

iMO, only an ultimate selfless sacrifice for something really big would make the GA root for him and want his redemption, what's more, only if he doesn't feel entitled to understanding and forgiveness can he ever get them. So the way to atonement will have to be long and hard, with plenty of suffering, because he needs to pay for the harm he has done regardless how just the cause may be. For most people there are crimes that can't be forgiven unless the culprit pays with his/her life.

When I saw the movie I thought Reylo would happen but Kylo would have to die, cause patricide is just too much; now, I'm not so sure, because Han forgave him before falling. He said he'd do anything for him, so who are we as viewers to go against Han's wishes to forgive his son for his own murder?

This is a movie, not RL, and most people need a very powerful reason to put on the scale, which added to all his suffering, and he must suffer an awful lot, can make them want to see him redeemed. They won't want him redeemed if he betrayed his family because he felt abandoned as I kid, there are more chances if he was brainwashed, but not enough either. IMO, only if his goal feels necessary and sacrificing his soul feels heroic, his redemption could be accepted by most. This is a movie for the GA, for families and kids, this is important to choose his reasons.

Of couse a good cause won't erase the crimes he committed, but he knows this, he knows his actions are horrible and doesn't expect forgiveness. That's what may earn him the viewers's sympathy. Redemption and forgiveness without his death will be acceptable only if the GA feels he's earned it, and they also need to respect him, which they won't do if he did everything because he had an unhappy childhood or for powah.

Falling in love is not a reason to forgive what he's done, although many will cry for him when he dies after saving others. It would be forgiveness after death, like with Vader. It can't be the same again either.

Stories work in a certain way and redemption and a second chance are only possible under certain conditions, especially in a movie for the whole family, kids included.


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Post by snufkin on Sun 04 Dec 2016, 5:33 pm

@ISeeAnIsland wrote:
@snufkin wrote:@ISeeanIsland - Instead of the heartwarming Daddy-Daughter LS reunion a lot of people imagine, the rumors of the 3 of them together, Luke being weird/frustrating, and the two of them actually having conversations, I've wondered if there's going to be anything where Ben feels like he has to stand between her and Luke to protect her. Because he knows how bonkers/powerful Luke is capable of being - besides still being a jerk and trying to sway her to his side, that he's started to feel more sympathetic/protective towards her. And if they swap stories, he's going to have situation thrown into relief because he can't ever compete with her in the "my childhood was terrible" competition and she'll understand how he ended up with Snoke.
@snufkin

Right. I kind of wonder if that's where the exploding hut rumor might come in.

Depending on the context and what happens when the hut blows, it could be played for comedy. (Admittedly, on paper the way it was described, it sounded like it could be comedic.)

BUT if they're not going the comedy route, and it really is Luke blowing up the hut because he's enraged about the conversation that Rey and Kylo are having, we could definitely be getting a situation where Kylo feels like he needs to protect Rey from Luke.

I don't necessarily buy into the popular headcanon that Rey falls off the cliff during the lightsaber fight, and Kylo dives in to save her from drowning. BUT further along in the movie, if they've had a chance to bond a bit and understand each other, I'd almost kind of expect for him to save her life from something.
@ISeeAnIsland

I really think that they're going to have him between her and Luke in VIII and then between her and Snoke in IX.
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Post by ZioRen on Sun 04 Dec 2016, 5:54 pm

To make Kylo "redeemable", they're going to have to have something that pushes him past the "he's just a brat" barrier. Because if it isn't understandable enough, everyone's going to just regard him as a brat who turned for no good reason even when he had parents who loved him and all the opportunity in the galaxy with his power. Especially when he's inevitably measured against Anakin, Rey, and even Finn's backstories. Even Pablo pointed this out in those much hated tweets.

Snoke in his head and manipulating him since childhood is probably the easiest way to move past that, but it's seeming more and more like that won't be the focus. So it'll have to be something else, and something particularly effective considering he turned as an adult and doesn't have the naive, abandonment issues teenager excuse. This is where I start to consider that people may be onto something when they theorize that Kylo feels he has a good end that justifies the means and is just biding his time with Snoke. At the same time, I agree with other arguments that a "for the greater good" Kylo doesn't at all match with the characterization we were given in VII.

Basically I don't know what to think, and I'll admit that I'm nervous to see where they go with this if he's slated for redemption. After all, I may want Kylo to be redeemed but there is a possibility that it'll happen but end up being portrayed badly and not satisfying anyone.
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Post by Maria Antonietta on Sun 04 Dec 2016, 6:07 pm

@ZioRen wrote:To make Kylo "redeemable", they're going to have to have something that pushes him past the "he's just a brat" barrier. Because if it isn't understandable enough, everyone's going to just regard him as a brat who turned for no good reason even when he had parents who loved him and all the opportunity in the galaxy with his power. Especially when he's inevitably measured against Anakin, Rey, and even Finn's backstories. Even Pablo pointed this out in those much hated tweets.

Snoke in his head and manipulating him since childhood is probably the easiest way to move past that, but it's seeming more and more like that won't be the focus. So it'll have to be something else, and something particularly effective considering he turned as an adult and doesn't have the naive, abandonment issues teenager excuse. This is where I start to consider that people may be onto something when they theorize that Kylo feels he has a good end that justifies the means and is just biding his time with Snoke. At the same time, I agree with other arguments that a "for the greater good" Kylo doesn't at all match with the characterization we were given in VII.

Basically I don't know what to think, and I'll admit that I'm nervous to see where they go with this if he's slated for redemption. After all, I may want Kylo to be redeemed but there is a possibility that it'll happen but end up being portrayed badly and not satisfying anyone.
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Post by Reynak on Sun 04 Dec 2016, 6:43 pm

@reylo1992 wrote:I think that it is safe to assume that Kylo will be redeemed and come home. If I resume the main parallels that we pointed out on this forum, Kylo would be our Star Wars:
- Anakin in reverse
- Prince Adam/Beast
- Romeo
- Severus Snape
- E.T.
and so on...

So it would be really unlogical if the screenwriters would make him go darker and darker until he becomes a typical villain such a la Gaston, Voldemort, and so on...

Rey will be anyway his main motivation to fight back against Snoke. We comment a lot of Reylo moments but I think there is one scene that deserves to be analyzed because I believe this scene to be the real starting point of Reylo:
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One comment a lot the vision scene and what happens after but one talk very few about what happensjust before. I have always asked myself: why does the lightsaber calls to Rey only after this scene? One could answer: it's only a question of timing! The screenwriters needed to have the characters sitting and discussing before serious things begin!

However, I believe that the way the discussion goes and how it ends may have a significance in what happens next. Actually, Rey was certainly the last person who was supposed to be called by the Skywalker lightsaber - assuming that Ben is the last owner - and get involved in this journey to fight against the FO and bring him home.

1) Han

If there's one person in this scene who has personel reason to get involved in the fight against the FO, it's Han! So let's have a look on his behavior in this scene.
1) His first reaction is to ask Maz to do him a favor: to bring the droid to Leia. This means that he had no intention to get involved and that he wanted to go back to his smuggler activities after giving the droid to Leia.
2) Maz refuses and encourages him to go home because he has been away from this fight for too long. Maz is of course talking about the fight agains the FO but she's certainly reffering to the fight for Ben's return too.
3) Han justifies his refusal saying that Leia doesn't wish to see him
4) During the whole scene, he looks tired, broken and resigned. Even when he reunites with Leia, he's very resigned to his son's fate: "There's too much Vader in much!" "We lost our son, forever!"

To put in a nutshell, he's not ready to fight nor for the Resistance as he did in the past neither for Ben himself

2) Finn

As a lot of Reylos, I tend to minimize the importance of Finn in my posts to focus on Kylo and Rey's dynamics. However, I am persuaded that Finn may have some importance not only  in the fight for the Resistance but also  in some way for Ben.

This is at least what Maz seems to think because her attention focuses much more on him than on Rey's and obviously not because he's intrduced himself as the big deal of the Resistance. To me, this is no coincidence that her eyes go bigger to study his face and  look closely at his eyes, which she doesn't do with Rey. Maz is clearly expecting from Finn that he gets involved in the fight and obviously disappointed by his reaction.

And what's Finn reaction? Very similar to Han. He's persuaded that there's no fight to be won against the F.O., which also means by extension there's no hope for Ben's return. So he seems as resigned as Han seems.  

As a result, Maz indicates Finn how to "disappear" by finding a transport for the Outer Rim. I believe  the word "disappear" to be important because this is exactly what Luke did ("Luke Skywalker has vanished") and what Han did in some way. If you think about it, there is this strong idea that the Skywalkers family - at least the Skywalker men - not only abandoned the fight against the FO but also the fight for Ben's return.

3) Rey

Now, let's focus on Rey's behavior in this scene because her attitude is totally different:

1) She  immediately expresses her interest interested in Maz's statement ("What fight?")

2) She protests vigorously when she realizes that Finn is going to give up the fight:
- 1st time" What will happen to BB-8? We're not done yet!"
==> I already pointed out in a previous post that I believe BB-8 to be actually Ben's bot, the one he created when he was a child the same way Anakin created C-3PO
==> Kylo also says "we're not done yet" in the forest while looking at Finn
- 2nd time: "What are you doing?"
- 3rd time: You can't just go! I won't let you"

She's looking at Finn & Han as if she feels:
1) Betrayed
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2) Abandoned
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==> Which is probably what Ben experienced on his own

Only then, this happens:
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There are a lot of explanations about it. My guess is that Rey is called by the lightsaber not only because she experiences the sames feelings as Ben but also because she's not ready to give up contrary to the others. She's the only who seems so determined to fulfill the mission completely. I pointed in so many that her only real motivation at that point is her family coming back but  she also expresses such strong sense of duty and loyalty.

Interestingly, she also expresses a genuine loyalty to BB-8, at least 3 times:
1) She refuses to give him up to Theedo in the desert
2) She refuses to give him up to Unkar Plutt ==> She means that the droid is not for sale, which means by extension - if BB-8 is really Ben's bot - that Ben himself has no price for her
3) She is determined to bring BB-8 back to the base, which means by extension  bring Ben home

I pointed out in my previous the possible parallels with E.T. especially the the parallel between the opening shot of TFA and the "E.T. phone home" scene. Choosing such parrallel for the opening shot is certainly no coincidence because there is this strong idea about coming home in the movie:
- Han to Chewie: "Chewie, we're home!"
- Maz to Han: "Han! Go home!"
- Leia to Han: "If you see our son, bring him home!"
- Han to Ben: "Leave here with me! Come home!"

What if the lightsaber calling to Rey was actually the Star War version of "E.T. phone home", Ben trying voluntarily or not to reach out to someone who could help him to come home?
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"E.T phone home" is literally a sort of message in a bottle, a SOS sent by E.T.,  Elliott playing the role of the messenger. And this is what happens just after Maz, who seems obviously surprised that Rey was chosen by the lightsaber, asks her to take it:
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What if Ben is trying to communicate with Rey through the Force because he knows somehow that she may be his only chance to reach out to home? And why would he introduce himself to her as Ben since he tells Han that Ben is gone?


Then, Rey reacts by refusing to touch the lightsaber again but finally sort of accepts her destiny later...leading to the famous "It is you!" moment:
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One of the post pointed out that Rey may parallel Iris, the messenger of the Gods in the Greek mythology. She carries more or less Ben's "message in the bottle" by bringing the lightsaber to Luke. Meanwhile the lightsaber passed during the whole movie from hand to hand with this idea that touching the lightsaber is accepting to get involved in this fight for Ben.
1. Han did it ==> he touches Ben's red lightsaber but still he sort of accept to play a role in his Ben's redemption even if it means death
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2. Leia did it==> it doesn't appear in the film editing which is finally not so important because Space Mama is the only one to be already involved in the fight from the beginning and believing in her son's redemption
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3. Finn did it ==>which implies that Finn is also supposed to play his part in Ben's redemption in some way so I am looking forward to know how he enters into this scheme
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By tending the lightsaber to Luke, Rey is more or less pleading him to get involved in this fight for Ben's soul because he has disapeared and been away from this fight for too long. It is interesting that the film ended with Luke not touching the lightsaber but only staring at it with shock and conflict on his face and in his eyes:
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So the question are: Why did the screenwriters want Luke to be the final recipient of the message? Why does Luke react so emotionally to the lightsaber (even more emotionally than Han did)? Why Han coming back for Ben wasn't a reason strong enough for him to come home? What are Ben's "personal interests" (that go against Snoke's orders) to go after the map to Luke?
@reylo1992

Great post, with very interesting observations. Thanks a lot for these ideas. bounce bounce bounce
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Post by panki on Sun 04 Dec 2016, 8:12 pm

ARCHIVE: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings - 13 - Page 5 Tumblr_ohkjvfUYdE1r3j9f2o3_1280

This is from Princess Leia: Royal Rebel.

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Post by Helix on Sun 04 Dec 2016, 8:32 pm

@panki wrote:ARCHIVE: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings - 13 - Page 5 Tumblr_ohkjvfUYdE1r3j9f2o3_1280

This is from Princess Leia: Royal Rebel.
@panki

I hope if we see young Ben before the fall, he'll be as much of a fashionista as his mother. It runs in the blood!
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Post by snufkin on Sun 04 Dec 2016, 8:37 pm

If we're taking bets, I predict flashback, pre-fall to the Darkside Ben is a neeeerrrd in all his glory. That's who Rey sees deep down in him.
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Post by creepi0 on Sun 04 Dec 2016, 8:44 pm

Re: Redeemed Ren

Impression i got from Ren it seem he self blaming himself for some tragedy happen in the past that he cannot prevent. Every time he fucked up/mess up (Letting Finn go) he just rage/mad at himself and throw tantrum. Also i don't think he hate his father, it look like killing his father just a test he need to pass through. IMO it's not powerful enough if his reason to join The First Order just because his Mom and Dad doesn't love him.

I know several people theorize how Snoke is supposed to be some Child Predator metaphor and they think how it doesn't make sense that Ben Fall happen when he is grown adult. It might unpopular opinion here, but i don't pity Ren. He need to get his s*** together.

My personal theory is maybe Ben is just like a kid that get sent to boarding school and before that he have good relationship with his parent. Han might promised to visit him,which never did and think he might better not involved with his son life. And maybe it's the opposite of what Ben want, that he want his parent to involved with his life. Maybe he also have good time there with uncle Luke and also have some good friends. Then Tragedy happen (Vader reveal) that orchestra by Snoke to get Ben to his side. If Leia get a lot of s*** because of it i'm sure Luke too. Some group gone mad (New Republic or Maybe Luke acolytes) and started attacked Luke jedi temple. Ben see his friend get murdered left and right but he survive maybe with Snoke help and Snoke convince him to join him and take the mantle of his late grandfather as authoritative figure that will bring/restore order of the Galaxy and feeding him bunch of crap about force mumbo jumbo. And Maybe down the line in Episode 8 Ben finds out (Maybe from Luke) that Snoke is the one who caused his friend and Luke student get murdered. BOOM instant Face turn for Ben

I'm flexible to any story Lucasfilm will tell and not really fixated to this theory. This just for fun speculating with lack of dirt sheet/spoiler Very Happy coming up . They definitely know better than me about how to tell a good story but i really hope they handle Ben Fall better than how Anakin Fall.


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Post by ISeeAnIsland on Sun 04 Dec 2016, 8:48 pm

@snufkin wrote:If we're taking bets, I predict flashback, pre-fall to the Darkside Ben is a neeeerrrd in all his glory. That's who Rey sees deep down in him.
@snufkin

I go back and forth on thinking that he was a nerd vs. a bit of an entitled brat. Although I guess those two things aren't necessarily mutually exclusive.
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Post by Helix on Sun 04 Dec 2016, 8:51 pm

@snufkin wrote:If we're taking bets, I predict flashback, pre-fall to the Darkside Ben is a neeeerrrd in all his glory. That's who Rey sees deep down in him.
@snufkin

He's one of those nerds who tries too hard to be ' tough / cool ' to impress people, but you can see right through it. That's basically what Kylo is, a nerd trying too hard to convince people that he's something he's not. Razz
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Post by snufkin on Sun 04 Dec 2016, 9:01 pm

@Helix wrote:
@snufkin

He's one of those nerds who tries too hard to be ' tough / cool ' to impress people, but you can see right through it. That's basically what Kylo is, a nerd trying too hard to convince people that he's something he's not. Razz

@ISeeanIsland, I agree with @Helix! That's every punk I ever hung out with when I was in high school and my early 20s. It's part of the difference between how he acts around Poe (trying to scare/intimidate him) versus Rey (showing off/trying to impress her). He cares way too much what she thinks about him.

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Post by ISeeAnIsland on Sun 04 Dec 2016, 9:11 pm

@snufkin wrote:
@Helix wrote:
@snufkin

He's one of those nerds who tries too hard to be ' tough / cool ' to impress people, but you can see right through it. That's basically what Kylo is, a nerd trying too hard to convince people that he's something he's not. Razz

@ISeeanIsland, I agree with @Helix! That's every punk I ever hung out with when I was in high school and my early 20s. It's part of the difference between how he acts around Poe (trying to scare/intimidate him) versus Rey (showing off/trying to impress her). He cares way too much what she thinks about him.

@snufkin

Oh god, yes. That's it exactly. Right down to Cool Dude Poe making fun of his mask.
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Post by snufkin on Sun 04 Dec 2016, 9:21 pm

@ISeeanIsland - I sort of hope for an anti villain, has to work with the good guys scenario so that he can get his a** dragged by Poe, along with some snarking on his hair.

So about the having to play intermediary if Crazy Uncle Luke threatens Rey scenario, it fits with his "Murderers, traitors, and thieves" line to her. Because he seems to fancy himself already as being her chivalrous protector getting her away from the bad guys. Finn is the traitor and Han is the thief, so that leaves who the murderers might be. Which could be either the New Republic or the Jedi. My guess is that Murderers is going to end up being a reference back to whatever bad s**t pushed him over into Snoke and the FO's corner. So it has to do with the Vader outing and what happened at Luke's school. Maybe hints more towards the other students turning on him?
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Post by Darth Dingbat on Mon 05 Dec 2016, 1:32 am

@panki wrote:ARCHIVE: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings - 13 - Page 5 Tumblr_ohkjvfUYdE1r3j9f2o3_1280

This is from Princess Leia: Royal Rebel.
@panki

Baby Ben has A LOT of hair.
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Post by Darth_Awakened on Mon 05 Dec 2016, 2:43 am

@Darth Dingbat wrote:
@panki wrote:ARCHIVE: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings - 13 - Page 5 Tumblr_ohkjvfUYdE1r3j9f2o3_1280

This is from Princess Leia: Royal Rebel.
@panki

Baby Ben has A LOT of hair.
@Darth Dingbat

I assume it's the first official picture of baby Ben? Or not?
And the hair is already strong with him!
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Post by SoloSideCousin on Mon 05 Dec 2016, 3:56 am

@ISeeAnIsland wrote:
@snufkin wrote:@ISeeanIsland - Instead of the heartwarming Daddy-Daughter LS reunion a lot of people imagine, the rumors of the 3 of them together, Luke being weird/frustrating, and the two of them actually having conversations, I've wondered if there's going to be anything where Ben feels like he has to stand between her and Luke to protect her. Because he knows how bonkers/powerful Luke is capable of being - besides still being a jerk and trying to sway her to his side, that he's started to feel more sympathetic/protective towards her. And if they swap stories, he's going to have situation thrown into relief because he can't ever compete with her in the "my childhood was terrible" competition and she'll understand how he ended up with Snoke.
@snufkin

Right. I kind of wonder if that's where the exploding hut rumor might come in.

Depending on the context and what happens when the hut blows, it could be played for comedy. (Admittedly, on paper the way it was described, it sounded like it could be comedic.)

BUT if they're not going the comedy route, and it really is Luke blowing up the hut because he's enraged about the conversation that Rey and Kylo are having, we could definitely be getting a situation where Kylo feels like he needs to protect Rey from Luke.

I don't necessarily buy into the popular headcanon that Rey falls off the cliff during the lightsaber fight, and Kylo dives in to save her from drowning. BUT further along in the movie, if they've had a chance to bond a bit and understand each other, I'd almost kind of expect for him to save her life from something.
@ISeeAnIsland

I agree with both of you.  Luke might be a big mystery to everyone else, but he won't be a mystery to Kylo.  If Luke has gone a little crazy, Kylo is going to know it.  I too have wondered about a scene where Kylo steps protectively in front of Rey when Luke goes off.  A scene like that would turn GA expectations completely upside down and would be as dramatic as he**.

P.S. The more time goes on the more I think that Luke has to be off somehow.  KK pitched JJ with the question, "Who is Luke Skywalker?" and that got JJ excited.  What's he excited about? Luke being a perfect gentle Jedi Emeritus? I don't think so.  He's excited about Luke revealing a hidden side we never saw before.
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Post by CienaRee on Mon 05 Dec 2016, 4:53 am

@SoloSideCousin wrote:
@ISeeAnIsland wrote:
@snufkin wrote:@ISeeanIsland - Instead of the heartwarming Daddy-Daughter LS reunion a lot of people imagine, the rumors of the 3 of them together, Luke being weird/frustrating, and the two of them actually having conversations, I've wondered if there's going to be anything where Ben feels like he has to stand between her and Luke to protect her. Because he knows how bonkers/powerful Luke is capable of being - besides still being a jerk and trying to sway her to his side, that he's started to feel more sympathetic/protective towards her. And if they swap stories, he's going to have situation thrown into relief because he can't ever compete with her in the "my childhood was terrible" competition and she'll understand how he ended up with Snoke.
@snufkin

Right. I kind of wonder if that's where the exploding hut rumor might come in.

Depending on the context and what happens when the hut blows, it could be played for comedy. (Admittedly, on paper the way it was described, it sounded like it could be comedic.)

BUT if they're not going the comedy route, and it really is Luke blowing up the hut because he's enraged about the conversation that Rey and Kylo are having, we could definitely be getting a situation where Kylo feels like he needs to protect Rey from Luke.

I don't necessarily buy into the popular headcanon that Rey falls off the cliff during the lightsaber fight, and Kylo dives in to save her from drowning. BUT further along in the movie, if they've had a chance to bond a bit and understand each other, I'd almost kind of expect for him to save her life from something.
@ISeeAnIsland

I agree with both of you.  Luke might be a big mystery to everyone else, but he won't be a mystery to Kylo.  If Luke has gone a little crazy, Kylo is going to know it.  I too have wondered about a scene where Kylo steps protectively in front of Rey when Luke goes off.  A scene like that would turn GA expectations completely upside down and would be as dramatic as he**.

P.S. The more time goes on the more I think that Luke has to be off somehow.  KK pitched JJ with the question, "Who is Luke Skywalker?" and that got JJ excited.  What's he excited about? Luke being a perfect gentle Jedi Emeritus? I don't think so.  He's excited about Luke revealing a hidden side we never saw before.
@SoloSideCousin
It would also be exciting for Mark Hamill if Luke went a little off.Hasn't he said he aways wanted Luke to go dark?It would be funny if both him and Harrison get their wish(Han dying and Luke going dark) decades later.It would also fir RJ's comment about not letting nostalgia dictate how he writes Luke and Leia.
Actually if you think about it if Luke had started showing signs of going off the rail while Ben still hasn't fallen to the DS that might have bene one of the reasons why he wasn't able to sense Snoke having set his sights on Ben or be able to help him(that and not having got over his worship of Anakin).

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Post by Jakku on Mon 05 Dec 2016, 6:00 am

If Leia and Han felt unable to help Ben with his Force-related issues, and then Luke turned out to be a bit crazy and obsessed - who was left for Ben? He was a child being raised by air, much as Pablo said Rey was raised by sand.

I've often wondered if the 'you need a teacher' plea was intended to give her the tools to protect her against Luke.
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Post by Guest on Mon 05 Dec 2016, 6:28 am

@panki

Thank you for sharing that! Baby Ben artwork (and the references in the novels) always kills me with the cute and feels.

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Post by Darth_Awakened on Mon 05 Dec 2016, 6:33 am

Far from being a Luke obsessed fan - I really doubt he went completely dark-side crazy over the ages, that Rey needs a protection in regard to him.

He is definitely not an idealistic young man from OT, and probably very disappointed in himself, which led to hermit-state of isolation without hope. I think it's more of depression than pure craziness in his case.





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Post by Magnolia_3.0 on Mon 05 Dec 2016, 6:34 am

@Jakku wrote:If Leia and Han felt unable to help Ben with his Force-related issues, and then Luke turned out to be a bit crazy and obsessed - who was left for Ben? He was a child being raised by air, much as Pablo said Rey was raised by sand.

I've often wondered if the 'you need a teacher' plea was intended to give her the tools to protect her against Luke.
@Jakku

What I found incredible about this offer was that he did not offer a master to guide him to the dark side ... he offers just the opposite, "a teacher, who teaches her the ways of the Force." That struck me as something so Jedi!
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Post by Magnolia_3.0 on Mon 05 Dec 2016, 6:48 am

@Darth_Awakened wrote:Far from being a Luke obsessed fan - I really doubt he went completely dark-side crazy over the ages, that Rey needs a protection in regard to him.

He is definitely not an idealistic young man from OT, and probably very disappointed in himself, which led to hermit-state of isolation without hope. I think it's more of depression than pure craziness in his case.





@Darth_Awakened

I can not believe Luke was isolated from depression. I suppose, there is a much greater reason ... if they were in search of the first Jedi Temple, they were in search of knowledge ... it is not a simple isolation, it wants to obtain knowledge about something, that can be linked directly To the motive of Kylo's revolt ... in an interview, Adam Driver defined Kylo as a very religious person, not a villain, but someone who believes so blindly in a doctrine to do anything for this, believing that his actions are Correct.
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Post by Darth_Awakened on Mon 05 Dec 2016, 7:24 am

@Magnolia_3.0 wrote:
@Darth_Awakened wrote:Far from being a Luke obsessed fan - I really doubt he went completely dark-side crazy over the ages, that Rey needs a protection in regard to him.

He is definitely not an idealistic young man from OT, and probably very disappointed in himself, which led to hermit-state of isolation without hope. I think it's more of depression than pure craziness in his case.





@Darth_Awakened

I can not believe Luke was isolated from depression. I suppose, there is a much greater reason ... if they were in search of the first Jedi Temple, they were in search of knowledge ... it is not a simple isolation, it wants to obtain knowledge about something, that can be linked directly To the motive of Kylo's revolt ... in an interview, Adam Driver defined Kylo as a very religious person, not a villain, but someone who believes so blindly in a doctrine to do anything for this, believing that his actions are Correct.
@Magnolia_3.0

Actually Han Solo did say exactly that in TFA: Luke felt responsible and he dropped everything. Sounds like a depression to me a lot.

However, there is definitely possibility that the first Jedi temple (as per some source which I can not rember now - force ghost Yoda sent him there), hides a secret or two which could make things better.

The main mistery to me, regarding Luke's absence is the fact that he did not face Snoke at some point. Does it mean actually that Snoke is more powerful than Luke in terms of Force or something else?
I really doubt that Snoke is more powerful because he (Snoke) is rather contnet with the fact that Luke is nowhere to be found.
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Post by Darth Dingbat on Mon 05 Dec 2016, 7:45 am

@Darth_Awakened wrote:Far from being a Luke obsessed fan - I really doubt he went completely dark-side crazy over the ages, that Rey needs a protection in regard to him.

He is definitely not an idealistic young man from OT, and probably very disappointed in himself, which  led to hermit-state of isolation without hope. I think it's more of depression than pure craziness in his case.


@Darth_Awakened

As a life-long Luke fan, I admit I'd be quite disturbed if Luke has gone dark. Just like I'd be disturbed if he now wants his nephew dead after he stood for the complete opposite of that in the OT. I wouldn't want all of the OT to be pretty much erased in this new trilogy.

But then I remember this video, where Mark was saying how much he would have liked to play Luke going dark, about to kill Han or Leia or "someone else we care about", and then come back... and JJ was sitting there, opposite him, looking very interested. Laughing I can't help but wonder if he had that conversation in mind when he started planning the new trilogy. (it's around 11:50)

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