ARCHIVE: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings - 13

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Post by motherofpearl1 on Sat 03 Dec 2016, 12:45 pm

@BastilaBey wrote:Adam talking about why Kylo is the character he's played who he related to most

I feel like that character [Kylo] makes sense to me. The family dynamic and desperately wanting family to be part of his life but not getting it. The anxiety and lot of anger that that creates and that last a lifetime. When we finished that I was like I believe we made that personal.

This gives me a lot of feelings because it's one of the big reasons I relate to the character too. Parent and child relationships can be so fragile and difficult to navigate, even with love there.

http://bentages.tumblr.com/post/153962951535/i-feel-like-that-character-kylo-makes-sense-to

from this interview
https://player.fm/series/awards-chatter/adam-driver-paterson

So Kylo's desperate for a sense of belonging...hmm, and who else is?
@BastilaBey

Sounds like a bit of angst in Adam's real life.
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Post by ISeeAnIsland on Sat 03 Dec 2016, 1:17 pm

IMO, we've gotten quite a few hints that Kylo's end goal isn't necessarily the same as Snoke's. I do tend to think that Kylo thinks that he needs to be aligned with Snoke to achieve whatever his goal is, though. I don't think this could be stated any more clearly than with Snoke's desire to have the map (and BB-Cool destroyed, if that's what it took to keep it out of the hands of the Resistance, while Kylo REALLY wanted to get his hands on that map (and this was before he'd known that a certain pretty, Force-sensitive girl had seen the map).

Basically, I don't really buy into the whole double agent thing, but I do tend to think that Kylo's (not Snoke's) end goal ultimately is something heroic.
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Post by BastilaBey on Sat 03 Dec 2016, 1:29 pm

@motherofpearl1 I didn't really want to go there because it seems a little invasive, but I've got that impression from a couple of things he's said in various interviews. It's definitely something I immediately latched onto with the character and resonates with me on a personal level, and it would make sense for him to draw on personal experiences too.
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Post by Darth_Awakened on Sat 03 Dec 2016, 1:39 pm

Having in mind what JJ said in the commentary - about Snoke not trusting Kylo completely of his capability in mastering the dark side completely - which among other things sort of led to Han's murder as a proof of his dark side commitment and taking the role and legacy of Darth Vader, I still believe that Kylo - insecure and lost in his identity troubles - does not even known what is his real interest (or agenda) at the moment.

I have an impression that Kylo acts mostly on instinct: the most obvious proof for it is the abduction of Rey, then his obvious reluctance against the using SKB on Illenium system.
His insistence on finding Luke is the sole thing in the movie where Kylo was showing some sort of steady commitment - not only instinct, and that IMO is very interesting.
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Post by snufkin on Sat 03 Dec 2016, 2:13 pm

The DVD commentary also describes Han & Leia's conversation about being about the parents who have grappled with a really challenging kid, so there's that. And not challenging as in evil, but as in somebody who's personality and needs outscope their experience/capabilities. Hell, even people who have all the advantages in the world can end up with kids whose needs push them to the limits. So whatever Force powers manifested in Ben from an early age were likely beyond the ability of his parents to help him deal with (and Leia's own issues didn't help), which is how he got packed off to Luke. Who probably also handled him through his own biased Vader-is-my-dad lens, which made it worse.


So on a related tangent, because Hayao Miyazaki gets brought up as one of the influences for Rey, for those of you in the U.S. Sprited Away is being shown in theaters tomorrow and next Thursday:

Hayao Miyazaki’s Spirited Away Is Coming Back to the Big Screen This Weekend. You Should Go See It.

Spirited Away eschews lazy characterizations (such as that ugly = evil) and instead offers a more complicated outlook on themes like greed, selflessness, and unlikely heroism.

The English-dubbed version of Spirited Away will hit theaters on Dec. 4 and 8, with the original Japanese version showing on Dec. 5 with English subtitles. The three-night engagement will also include the U.S. debut of an animated short film, Ghiblies: Episode 2, which chronicles the adventures of Studio Ghibli’s animators.
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Post by rey09 on Sat 03 Dec 2016, 2:51 pm

@Darth_Awakened wrote:
@BastilaBey wrote:Adam talking about why Kylo is the character he's played who he related to most

I feel like that character [Kylo] makes sense to me. The family dynamic and desperately wanting family to be part of his life but not getting it. The anxiety and lot of anger that that creates and that last a lifetime. When we finished that I was like I believe we made that personal.

This gives me a lot of feelings because it's one of the big reasons I relate to the character too. Parent and child relationships can be so fragile and difficult to navigate, even with love there.

http://bentages.tumblr.com/post/153962951535/i-feel-like-that-character-kylo-makes-sense-to

from this interview
https://player.fm/series/awards-chatter/adam-driver-paterson

So Kylo's desperate for a sense of belonging...hmm, and who else is?
@BastilaBey

So, now there is almost no doubt what will be the common ground for the interesting relationship between Rey and Kylo to develop.
That's probably the thing Rey saw in Kylo's mind during the interrogation scene.

While in Vader's and Luke's case it was simply their father-son relation and the ideal image that the hero (Luke) had of it, that caused and motivated the deeper conflict between the two (not just simply hero vs. villain dynamics).
Rey and Kylo obviously should have something in common - to make further down their dynamics interesting and basically create the possibility for a mutual compassion.
@Darth_Awakened

Omg Kylo's deepest feelings are the SAME as Rey's. Two lonely people feeling alienated from family, desperate for belonging, can literally feel this pain in the other....and people say they can just be friends??? F*** that!!!!
This is the greatest love story in the making people!!!

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Post by Magnolia_3.0 on Sat 03 Dec 2016, 3:09 pm

@LondonGal555 wrote:A few other people have said it sounds like Kira so I listened to it and to me it sounds like bb8 says Kira. Id love for you to Listen to it and tell me what you think?
@LondonGal555
Only today I was able to review the scene! Really, it looks like the Bb-8 says Kira! I'm so excited about all these discoveries and theories!
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Post by Magnolia_3.0 on Sat 03 Dec 2016, 3:14 pm

@ISeeAnIsland wrote:IMO, we've gotten quite a few hints that Kylo's end goal isn't necessarily the same as Snoke's. I do tend to think that Kylo thinks that he needs to be aligned with Snoke to achieve whatever his goal is, though. I don't think this could be stated any more clearly than with Snoke's desire to have the map (and BB-Cool destroyed, if that's what it took to keep it out of the hands of the Resistance, while Kylo REALLY wanted to get his hands on that map (and this was before he'd known that a certain pretty, Force-sensitive girl had seen the map).

Basically, I don't really buy into the whole double agent thing, but I do tend to think that Kylo's (not Snoke's) end goal ultimately is something heroic.
@ISeeAnIsland

I totally agree with you! And one proof of this is that Kylo will go to the island with the knights of Ren. If he was in agreement with Snoke he would have taken more reinforcements ... I believe that Kylo will go to the island without the knowledge of Snoke.
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Post by LondonGal555 on Sat 03 Dec 2016, 3:30 pm

About kylo redemption I believe it already started to happen once Han was killed and Rey beat him.

"It's clear now that I was wrong. Whether your involvement would have made a difference we will never know." ( Hans involvement/death will make a difference in Kylo coming home, coming back to the light ).

"Snoke was manipulating everything, pulling our son toward the dark side."
" but nothings IMPOSSIBLE, Han. Not even now, at this late time. I have a feeling that if anyone can save him- it's you.
"Luke is a Jedi. But you're his father. There's still light in him I know it. "

When Kylo kills Han you hear.... Forgive me very low.

"You have compassion for her"-snoke to kylo
"I feel it again the pull to the light." -kylo
And in response, the figure of kylo ren turned and looked side ways, directly at the solider. The trooper saw only LIGHT reflecting off a mask, and his own fear.
"Does the physical location really matter so much" in kylo Rens voice there was unexpected ~gentleness~. " is it true? You're just a scavenger?" She didn't respond and perhaps sensing her embarrassment he changed the subject.
"I would preferred to avoid this. Despite what you may believe, it gives me no pleasure. I will go as easily as possible but I will take what I need."
"No-no. Keep questioning him. Just-questioning"
"Don't be afraid I feel it too"

" I could kill you now but there's another way."
" Rey says you are a monster and Kylo argues with her and says " No. You need a teacher."

its also interesting that whenever Rey and Kylo are around each other she is bathed in the light.

There's definitely redemption in Kylos future because they wouldn't be dropping all these hints and in the script which says.....THE REBIRTH OF A SUN.

Maz to Rey. "Whomever you are waiting for (been waiting for her family) There's someone who still could come back with you're help. The belonging you seek is not behind you it is ahead. "

Ben will come back to his mom and to the light and become Reys family by the way of husband I believe. Why else have all these hints for nothing?!?!

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Post by LondonGal555 on Sat 03 Dec 2016, 3:33 pm

Magnolia,
YAY!!!!! It does sound like Kira!!!! I'm glad others hear it too. Other people's views really do help figure all these little hints out.

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Post by ISeeAnIsland on Sat 03 Dec 2016, 3:54 pm

@rey09 wrote:
@Darth_Awakened wrote:
@BastilaBey wrote:Adam talking about why Kylo is the character he's played who he related to most

I feel like that character [Kylo] makes sense to me. The family dynamic and desperately wanting family to be part of his life but not getting it. The anxiety and lot of anger that that creates and that last a lifetime. When we finished that I was like I believe we made that personal.

This gives me a lot of feelings because it's one of the big reasons I relate to the character too. Parent and child relationships can be so fragile and difficult to navigate, even with love there.

http://bentages.tumblr.com/post/153962951535/i-feel-like-that-character-kylo-makes-sense-to

from this interview
https://player.fm/series/awards-chatter/adam-driver-paterson

So Kylo's desperate for a sense of belonging...hmm, and who else is?
@BastilaBey

So, now there is almost no doubt what will be the common ground for the interesting relationship between Rey and Kylo to develop.
That's probably the thing Rey saw in Kylo's mind during the interrogation scene.

While in Vader's and Luke's case it was simply their father-son relation and the ideal image that the hero (Luke) had of it, that caused and motivated the deeper conflict between the two (not just simply hero vs. villain dynamics).
Rey and Kylo obviously should have something in common - to make further down their dynamics interesting and basically create the possibility for a mutual compassion.
@Darth_Awakened

Omg Kylo's deepest feelings are the SAME as Rey's. Two lonely people feeling alienated from family, desperate for belonging, can literally feel this pain in the other....and people say they can just be friends??? F*** that!!!!
This is the greatest love story in the making people!!!
@rey09

cheers cheers cheers THIS is exactly why I feel it would be a huge waste if they don't go with "romantic Reylo" or only go with "one-sided Reylo". The potential/setup is there for an absolutely epic love story.
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Post by ISeeAnIsland on Sat 03 Dec 2016, 4:07 pm

@Magnolia_3.0 wrote:
@ISeeAnIsland wrote:IMO, we've gotten quite a few hints that Kylo's end goal isn't necessarily the same as Snoke's. I do tend to think that Kylo thinks that he needs to be aligned with Snoke to achieve whatever his goal is, though. I don't think this could be stated any more clearly than with Snoke's desire to have the map (and BB-Cool destroyed, if that's what it took to keep it out of the hands of the Resistance, while Kylo REALLY wanted to get his hands on that map (and this was before he'd known that a certain pretty, Force-sensitive girl had seen the map).

Basically, I don't really buy into the whole double agent thing, but I do tend to think that Kylo's (not Snoke's) end goal ultimately is something heroic.
@ISeeAnIsland

I totally agree with you! And one proof of this is that Kylo will go to the island with the knights of Ren. If he was in agreement with Snoke he would have taken more reinforcements ... I believe that Kylo will go to the island without the knowledge of Snoke.
@Magnolia_3.0

I think that's probably the most likely explanation--Kylo takes the KoR with him in search of his "personal interests" (i.e. whatever is at that first Jedi temple). If that's the case, that would indicate a partial break from Snoke and Snoke's agenda, at the least.

The one exception that I can see would be if Snoke is sending Kylo after Luke (and Rey) as some sort of final test. Granted, that could seem a little redundant, given that killing Han felt like it was a test, but perhaps this would be the final step in completing his training or something.
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Post by snufkin on Sat 03 Dec 2016, 9:20 pm

@ISeeAnIsland - He's showing up there to give her that mixtape! Starting with this song:



Seeing as how the belief of parallel training storylines and then big evil showdown is embedded in the GA's brain, we'll see how much they go that route versus playing with it. Personally that sounds really boring (I wasn't a huge fan of the Dagobah part of ESB), but they might keep it vague if he's there on business for Snoke or if he's there on personal business. The KoR part sounds like besides needing backup because he keeps getting his a** kicked by Rey, maybe they're also chaperones on behalf of Snoke so that he doesn't get distracted by her or veer off into personal interest territory. Also depends on how far he finally gets with admitting to himself that he's f**ked if he continues working on behalf of Snoke.
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Post by Saracene on Sat 03 Dec 2016, 10:21 pm

@Darth Dingbat wrote:And it's funny - it's precisely because SW is ultimately quite simple that I think Kylo's true motives won't turn out to be evil and selfish ones, if he is indeed to be redeemed. Because it's much more complicated to make the audience forgive someone we've seen murder people, including his own father, if he does it out of a callous desire for power, for example. It's especially difficult to tell such a story effectively in the short space of two films. A revelation about Kylo's agenda and backstory is by far the easiest and dramatic way to turn things around for Kylo so that the question is no longer, "Ok, who's going to kill this bastard and how?" but "How far can you go in pursuit of a noble goal before you become your enemy? How far can you go and still come back? Can you come back?" The audience will never approve and excuse the specific acts Kylo has done. But the audience's perception of him would dramatically change if they found that his original motive was a genuinely good one. They would feel conflicted about him, uncertain about his fate - as we do now - instead of just hating him.

@Darth Dingbat

I don't think that the story options with Kylo are as black-and-white and binary as a) evil and power-hungry motives or b) noble and good motives, though.

We've had both Adam and JJ stress how Kylo felt abandoned by his family and harboured grudge and anger, and I think that a sympathetic backstory is going to tie with that somehow. I think that Kylo's reasons for falling will be revealed to be deeply personal and emotional, and will probably involve some crucial event (whatever's gone down at Luke's Jedi school?) that provided a final push.

I think that a simple emotional angle that evokes sympathy and pity is a far easier sell than trying to make the audience understand how anyone with truly noble goals can side with someone as obviously eeeeevil as Snoke. I mean, either Kylo genuinely can't see that Snoke is evil, in which case he's misguided from the start, or he can and chooses to stick with Snoke anyway for a greater good, which like I've said before is just not what the good guys do in the SW universe.

As for what Kylo's current goals are... well he promises Darth Vader's helmet that he will finish what he started. While this sounds extremely vague, considering who Darth Vader was it really doesn't sound like a good guy kind of goal.
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Post by ladyconsular on Sun 04 Dec 2016, 2:12 am

After seeing the ending to the new chapter in SWTOR I have a feeling much inspiration will be taken from it regarding Kylo Ren and Leia. I feel like I just saw a glimpse at the future.

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Post by Lily Snape on Sun 04 Dec 2016, 2:46 am

@Saracene wrote:I suppose it's inevitable that Kylo's arc will repeat some of the beats used in Vader's redemption story, but that's only because redemption stories in general do have a pattern. For instance I don't expect Kylo to fully shake off Snoke's influence until the very end, where he also performs some huge self-sacrificial act. This sort of stuff is just most effective when it happens in a climatic sequence at the end of the film/trilogy. I do expect Episode VIII to move towards redemption, but it's going to be a bumpy ride. I think that the whole idea of getting Kylo to Luke's island is so that he can have development in an isolated environment away from Snoke that would have been impossible otherwise. But eventually his day job and the real world will come back into the picture and drama will ensue.
@Saracene

I'm with you about VIII being a bumpy ride toward redemption, but I wouldn't be surprised for narrative reasons if Kylo's turn happened at the end of VIII but misfired, leaving him A) one of the good guys, and B) in great peril. Something like his ship swoops out of nowhere and saves some major characters-- and goes down in flames, with no indication whether he lives or dies. Or he does something major to save the Resistance or some well-loved members thereof and is captured by the First Order. Or Rey finds out something that he has done (like passing info to the Resistance) because the FO knows too, and she realizes he's in great danger.

This gives us a cliffhanger, but it also has the GA rooting for Kylo as they wait two years (sigh) for IX. I'm going with the idea that one-sided or even reciprocated Reylo will happen, given all the hints, and you can't have the GA hating on the guy for another two years and then expect them to like him -- and want to see him with our heroine-- all of a sudden part way through IX.
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Post by Darth Dingbat on Sun 04 Dec 2016, 4:16 am

@Saracene, I certainly think a sympathetic backstory (without any particular understandable motive) is possible, but right after TFA I found it more a bit more likely than I do now, after Bloodline et al. It's not that the canon excludes the possibility of a sympathetic backstory in any way, but it kind of de-emphasises the things that previously seemed to be elements of it. JJ and Adam talk about abandonment, the novelisation tells us Snoke was always there, we were supposed to see a glimpse of a young boy with Snoke, and so on... but then we get Bloodline in which Leia gives no hint of worrying about his son's dark tendencies or mental health. Like, at all.

Something definitely happened six years ago, something big and traumatic, but for it to explain the total fall of a previously good boy, it needs to be REALLY big and traumatic. And then we're back at the possibilities of Snoke as a mental illness metaphor, and of Ben having been backed into a corner in some way, mentally broken and/or essentially brainwashed. Which is possible too, but in that case we're dealing with diminished capacity, diminished agency, and the question is: how responsible can he be for his actions if he's of unsound mind?

"Mentally broken so therefore kind of sympathetic, but still fully responsible for his actions and therefore kind of evil too" is the kind of murkiness I don't really expect to see in the story, tbh, not least because it's difficult to explain effectively in simple terms, and without conflicting mentally ill people with evil. There's nothing simple about mental illness, unless it's a fairytale like The Snow Queen where a boy gets a splinter of ice in his eyes, as a metaphor for mental illness/depression, and is a victim to be rescued from the clutches of the Snow Queen by the plucky heroine.

One possibility is that Kylo has legitimate reasons to feel betrayed and think of the Resistance as "murderers"; but nothing about TFA set up a morally grey political landscape, nothing at all. Or else he only thinks so because he's been thoroughly brainwashed to believe he was betrayed - but again, that would mean diminished capacity...

And when it comes to characters ending up doing bad things through having a heroic motive, it HAS been done in SW, only not in the films. For instance, Ulic Qel-Droma went to the Dark Side in order to fight it, but overestimated his strength to resist it, and ended up murdering his own brother before he snapped out of it. Kyp Durron's righteous anger had a "good", understandable motive to begin with, it was fuelled into a Dark Side rage by the spirit of Exar Kun, and he ended up using the Starkiller Sun Crusher weapon himself, being therefore directly responsible for the deaths of billions, including his own brother. Or Revan returning as a darksider with the ultimate goal of destroying the biggest enemy of the entire galaxy.

Legends content has a history of treating the Dark Side as a mental illness metaphor too, with ancient spirits speaking to characters, latching onto their fears and traumas and warping their minds, or even driving them psychotic. Or straight-up demonic possession, or mental domination through dark magic, or by a demonic entity; even in canon, this happened to Ahsoka on Mortis, for example.

Or, perhaps nothing traumatic happened, perhaps there's no twist at all, and Snoke simply deluded already arrogant Ben into believing he can rule the galaxy. That would be totally inconsistent with the character I thought I saw in TFA, and would make all the sympathetic signs of anxiety and conflict into nothing more than window-dressing, but you never know. Sometimes films ARE full of holes and inconsistent characterisation. I wouldn't expect redemption in this case, though.

tl;dr version: I'm not saying there aren't tons of different possibilities with Kylo's backstory. I just think him being motivated by a heroic goal is one of them. And of course, a "heroic goal" isn't necessarily so straightforward either, because you can be driven by a heroic motive but be lied to and used to achieve its exact opposite. This is where the terrorist comparisons can be quite apt, I think.

For example, an evil tricking him into supposedly fighting another evil. Like, going back to Mortis, when the Son showed Anakin a vision of his future and said something like, "join me, and we can prevent all this from happening". Of course, something equally bad or worse would have happened.
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Post by Darth Dingbat on Sun 04 Dec 2016, 4:41 am

Just to add: the reason I'm expecting at least some kind of a twist about Kylo's fall and true motives is that Lucas even went out of his way to give a sympathetic motive why Vader had become Vader. (Even if the execution was a bit half-arsed.) There's got to be something strange about Kylo's fall, especially with all the ambiguities and hints that there's something more to all this than we can guess.

Heck, there were even plans to tell a sympathetic backstory about Palpatine (which we might or might not get to see one day)...

Would be pretty damn odd if they create a complex character like Kylo only to go... "SURPRISE! He was just evil for evil's sake all along, LOL!"
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Post by motherofpearl1 on Sun 04 Dec 2016, 5:13 am

I'm going with the abduction theory myself at the moment - it would explain everything, why Kylo felt abandoned and why Luke and Han thought he was 'irredeemable'.
Kylo disappears, maybe around the time of the padawan massacre. His family think he's 'gone evil'. Kylo firmly believes mum,dad and uncle Luke are coming to rescue him;they aren't aware he needs rescuing. Snoke tells him they aren't coming back - a twisted version of what Maz told Rey. Gradually Kylo realises they aren't- and joins the Knights of Ren. It would explain his bitterness towards his family and his empathy towards Rey without turning the OC into'bad guys'.
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Post by Saracene on Sun 04 Dec 2016, 5:26 am

@Darth Dingbat To be honest, I've never looked at Kylo's potential backstory from the point of view of brainwashing or "mental illness" metaphors which seem to resonate strongly with you, so to me it's not a big deal if the canon makes these scenarios unlikely. As for Leia, we still have the canon fact that she sent Ben to train with Luke. I haven't read Bloodline, but I can't remember anyone mention anything that would contradict the idea that she sent him off because, in Han's words, he had too much Vader in him. I also understand that Ben and Leia's relationship is not really the focus of that book.

If I was to make a stab - and this is just that, I've no idea what the real story will be - I'd say that perhaps it has something to do with the reveal of Ben's true heritage. Maybe Snoke convinced him that his family doesn't give a sith about him, and that the outside world will never accept him because of who his grandfather was and what he's done.

Also, I don't really see the aim of the sympathetic backstory as something that will completely rehabilitate Kylo in the audience's eyes and make them forgive his crimes. I think it's there as a foot-in-the-door sort of thing, to make it clear that he's not just some ungrateful brat who had everything but decided to be evil, while still not making excuses for him or robbing him of agency and responsibility. Kylo will ultimately have to earn his redemption and the audience's goodwill through his future actions and/or remorse, not a sad backstory.

Thing is, telling people about Kylo's motives in the interviews is not the same as actually showing them in a film. It's like, the reason why so many people have trouble really relating to Kylo as a son of their favourite characters is because they're repeatedly told about it in the movie but the only scene that actually shows it is the bridge scene. If, say, TFA included some kind of flashback showing, I don't know, younger Han taking little Ben on a ride on the Millennium Falcon, I guarantee the father/son relationship would have clicked for the audience so, soooooo much more.
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Post by Darth Dingbat on Sun 04 Dec 2016, 5:39 am

@motherofpearl1 wrote:I'm going with the abduction theory myself at the moment - it would explain everything, why Kylo felt abandoned and why Luke and Han thought he was 'irredeemable'.
Kylo disappears, maybe around the time of the padawan massacre. His family think he's 'gone evil'. Kylo firmly believes mum,dad and uncle Luke are coming to rescue him;they aren't aware he needs rescuing. Snoke tells him they aren't coming back - a twisted version of what Maz told Rey. Gradually Kylo realises they aren't- and joins the Knights of Ren. It would explain his bitterness towards his family and his empathy towards Rey without turning the OC into'bad guys'.
@motherofpearl1

Yes, I've thought this is possible as well. Though I leaned more towards this theory when I thought Kylo was lost as a teenager. But I agree, it would explain his bitterness and sense of abandonment without turning the OT3 into bad guys at all. It would, however, make Kylo a tragic, brainwashed victim, and I'm not sure this is the angle they're going for here.

I have to clarify my earlier posts because I don't think I ever express myself clearly enough... my personal pet theory is that there's a bigger threat to the galaxy, and this is something Kylo is aware of and wants to prevent (his "heroic motive"). But I acknowledge that there are tons of other ways this story might go instead.

However, even "my" scenario could unfold in a number of different ways. For example, he might have been deceived into thinking that Snoke has the answers to preventing the dreaded thing, but is now realising that Snoke's goal is actually to bring it about.

@Saracene, I understand where you're coming from. But I don't think anything will ever completely rehabilitate Kylo in the audience's eyes. I don't think the point is to excuse his crimes, but to make the audience care about him going forward, and that's obviously a challenge whatever happens. I just personally think motive would be an important piece of this puzzle, alongside his future actions. More important than a sad backstory (unless such a sad backstory is SO shocking that is changes everything we know).
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Post by Scavengerscum on Sun 04 Dec 2016, 5:41 am

I feel like it will be a compilation of all those things. As Adam Driver said, his actions come from a feeling of abandonment, of desperately wanting family and not getting it. His relationship with his family and ensuing anger and resentment is very clearly characterised. He also seems to have experienced extreme trauma/manipulation which I think goes hand in hand with whatever beef he holds against his family. Something went down in the past, something awful that will paint Kylo as a very sympathetic character.
But I'm not sure that is enough. I've heard people call Kylo a big man baby and as harsh as it sounds, in a SW movie, if his only reasons for turning to the darkside are sympathetic ones he'll appear to most people as a weak sauce hero/villain, especially to most of the male GA.
I definitely believe that his motives are something he views as heroic, that originated from a good place. He goes through these moments of crisis; the Vader supplication, the Han on the bridge scene. I could have read this completely wrong but I feel like he does these things because he feels like he is part of something bigger than himself, he has some kind of goal, a Knight of Templar duty and he is constantly seeking validation and strength to stay on this path. And yet, at the same time, he is constantly getting distracted, indulging in himself in his "personal interests" (Rey) and projecting on people because he's self absorbed and can't see past his own pain. I haven't explained myself very well, things always sound better in my head but I really and truly believe his goals (as villainous as they are now) will be something that coincides with the end result of this trilogy. Eg. bringing balance to the force or something. Someone on tumblr is a lot more succinct than I am: Oldastra or something? She writes about agency and moral injury and how this could affect Kylo. Good stuff.

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Post by Scavengerscum on Sun 04 Dec 2016, 5:43 am

@Saracene wrote:@Darth Dingbat To be honest, I've never looked at Kylo's potential backstory from the point of view of brainwashing or "mental illness" metaphors which seem to resonate strongly with you, so to me it's not a big deal if the canon makes these scenarios unlikely. As for Leia, we still have the canon fact that she sent Ben to train with Luke. I haven't read Bloodline, but I can't remember anyone mention anything that would contradict the idea that she sent him off because, in Han's words, he had too much Vader in him. I also understand that Ben and Leia's relationship is not really the focus of that book.

If I was to make a stab - and this is just that, I've no idea what the real story will be - I'd say that perhaps it has something to do with the reveal of Ben's true heritage. Maybe Snoke convinced him that his family doesn't give a sith about him, and that the outside world will never accept him because of who his grandfather was and what he's done.

Also, I don't really see the aim of the sympathetic backstory as something that will completely rehabilitate Kylo in the audience's eyes and make them forgive his crimes. I think it's there as a foot-in-the-door sort of thing, to make it clear that he's not just some ungrateful brat who had everything but decided to be evil, while still not making excuses for him or robbing him of agency and responsibility. Kylo will ultimately have to earn his redemption and the audience's goodwill through his future actions and/or remorse, not a sad backstory.

Thing is, telling people about Kylo's motives in the interviews is not the same as actually showing them in a film. It's like, the reason why so many people have trouble really relating to Kylo as a son of their favourite characters is because they're repeatedly told about it in the movie but the only scene that actually shows it is the bridge scene. If, say, TFA included some kind of flashback showing, I don't know, younger Han taking little Ben on a ride on the Millennium Falcon, I guarantee the father/son relationship would have clicked for the audience so, soooooo much more.
@Saracene

You just explained that really well. He would literally be just a big man child in a lot of peoples eyes and it would seem cheap, especially if Reylo were to happen.

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Post by Scavengerscum on Sun 04 Dec 2016, 6:02 am

@motherofpearl1

I don't necessarily think he was abducted or anything but it is really interesting to watch the bridge scene with that idea in mind.
"I've waited for this moment for a long time." - waiting for rescue/feeling abandoned? Not just villainous monologue but was genuinely waiting for Han to...what? Given up hope/disappointed/angry?
"Take off that mask. You don't need it.
"What do you think you'll see if I do?" - does he feel guilty? Disappointed in himself/worried about what Han will think? Putting a brave face on, almost like a kid who knows he's going to be punished and is pretending he doesn't care/isn't remorseful? Blaming Han for his abandonment and is essentially saying, "You thought I was a monster, so what do you think you'll see when I take this mask off?" Almost as though Ben was throwing Hans words back at him.
"The face of my son." - an apology? A declaration of unconditional love: "Doesn't matter what terrible things you've done, what terrible things have happened to you - it's not too late, you're still my son." Guilt, maybe Han never responded in the way Ben needed as a child. Affirmation that whatever had happened to Ben wasn't enough for Han to not still want to claim him as his son? "Something far worse has happened to you." - Lor San Tekka.
"Your son...is gone." It's too late for you to be fatherly now, to come and save me? "[You] mean nothing to me." I'm not you're son anymore. "Han Solo can't save [me]."

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Post by Saracene on Sun 04 Dec 2016, 6:08 am

@Scavengerscum I can see what you mean about Kylo's motivations potentially looking too soppy to a part of the audience. But if Reylo was to happen, what could possibly be more soppy than loooooove? Wink They've already shown that they're willing to take a risk with Kylo's portrayal that rubs people wrong in the "manliness" department. They'll probably balance this out by giving him some scenes where he's all powerful and bad***, but I don't necessarily see them backtrack on his portrayal completely.

I just think, personally, that a character can't really be motivated by deeply personal reasons like family issues, abandonment, desire to belong etc. and by some abstract principles/noble concerns about the galaxy. These to me sound like two completely different types of characters and storylines. If Kylo's story was about a man with noble aims at heart, I'd expect him to be presented in a completely different manner. Sure, commitment to a cause and its goal can stem out of a desire to belong, but it ultimately still comes down to the personal.
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