ARCHIVE: Discussion: Spoilers/Rumors -13

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Post by IoJovi on Tue Feb 07, 2017 12:42 pm

@vaderito People are allowed to discuss whatever they wish to discuss. We all know spoilers have been sparse as of late, and honestly I'm game for any type of discussion. That said, I do take Mike Zeroh with a VERY LARGE BOULDER SIZE grain of salt. I also don't see Kylo showing up towards the end or even the middle, but probably at the half hour/45 minute mark. Rey and Kylo aren't going to duel again at the end of the movie - that's already been done. TFA was accused of being a rehash of a ANH, and we certainly don't want TLJ being accused of being a rehash of TFA!!! Laughing

On top of that, I don't think Rey and Ren's battle is going to have quite the significance that it did in TFA. Instead, I see it being a filler for what the audience expects to go down, and after it occurs, something will happen that will turn the audience on its ear. If this is the case, that battle is more likely to occur towards the beginning or least before the middle of the movie. Keep also in mind that if we are right (and I know we are), Rey and Ren will need time to develop along side one on another to get a better understanding. This can't happen if that fight happens later than we expect.

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Post by vaderito on Tue Feb 07, 2017 12:42 pm

@Maria Antonietta wrote:

He's so bs...
@Maria Antonietta

Both. Movieweb is as bad as Movie Pilot and Movie Pilot is as bad as Reddit and 4chan. They still believe in Rey Solo, nuff said.

@IoJovi Mike Zeroh is going to change the story tomorrow. It's always like that with him. But fair enough, anyone can discuss whatever they want.

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Post by IoJovi on Tue Feb 07, 2017 12:49 pm

@vaderito wrote:
@Maria Antonietta wrote:

He's so bs...
@Maria Antonietta

Both. Movieweb is as bad as Movie Pilot and Movie Pilot is as bad as Reddit and 4chan. They still believe in Rey Solo, nuff said.

@IoJovi Mike Zeroh is going to change the story tomorrow. It's always like that with him. But fair enough, anyone can discuss whatever they want.

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@vaderito

Right? What annoys me about Mike Zeroh is that he passes off his theories as canon fact, like he's in the know somehow. Yet ALL of his theories are built only upon what has come out since December 2015, and some of that stuff has done a complete 180. It would be like me theorizing there's going to be a very accidental kiss towards the end of VIII (the "I Am Your Father" moment), and then going on Reddit declaring it's a canon fact because I know someone.
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Post by reylo1992 on Tue Feb 07, 2017 12:53 pm

@ISeeAnIsland wrote:
@ZioRen wrote:
@Saracene wrote:There might be training in TLJ, but maybe not in the same straightforward manner of ESB where Luke showed up at Yoda's place with the intent of being trained.

I've always been sceptical about the idea of Kylo arriving on the island early, to be honest. I don't see his confrontation with Rey happening any earlier than midpoint of the movie, so what is he going to do before then? Just appear in shots of him loitering around?

Kylo/Luke fight is IMO extremely likely and in fact I would be surprised if it *didn't* happen. Rey might soften towards Kylo but I don't think Luke will, in this movie at least. It would be weird to have no encounter between them at all, and when it happens I think it's bound to be hostile in nature.
@Saracene

I'm glad I'm not the only one who never put too much stock in the idea that Kylo comes to the island early. I always thought the evidence behind it was rather weak. In fact, I don't even remember why we thought he came early? Because it may have been something MSW said, but they've backed off a lot of things regarding Kylo and his fight with Rey/Luke vs Knights of Ren. Even if he did arrive within the first half, I doubt he'd have a whole big fight with Luke and Rey at that moment as rumors suggest. That's a bizarrely large and important confrontation to have in the first half of the movie. I guess I'd give Rian props for playing with expectations if he did that, but I'm not holding my breath on it.

That's why that one "leak", though not from a reputable source at all, about the early arrival battle just being a vision made sense to me. Moreso than it actually happening for real. It's a bit rehashy, but Luke giving Rey this vision of how wrong it can go if she doesn't go all out against Kylo Ren would fit with the rumors that he's darker and wants Kylo dead. And it sets up Rey proving "fate" wrong. Plus it could mean that Kylo never actually knocks Rey off a cliff, which only bodes well for a Reylo trajectory.
@ZioRen

I don't put a lot of stock into Kylo showing up on Ahch-To super early, but I'm expecting it to happen towards the end of Act I or the end of the first half of TLJ.  Why? Because if we're not getting a last-minute Vader-esque redemption for Kylo, his character needs time to grow and change, and I'd expect his interactions with Rey (and possibly Luke) to set that change in motion.

If the big Rey-Kylo duel doesn't happen until the climax of VIII, I think you can also close the coffin on the possibility of two-sided romantic Reylo in any capacity.

@ISeeAnIsland

Reylos until Kylo shows up on Ahch-To:
ARCHIVE: Discussion: Spoilers/Rumors -13 - Page 39 Raw15

Reylos if Kylo shows up there during the first half of the movie:
ARCHIVE: Discussion: Spoilers/Rumors -13 - Page 39 Raw_213

Reylos if Kylo shows up there only  at the end of the movie:
ARCHIVE: Discussion: Spoilers/Rumors -13 - Page 39 Raw_812


lol!  lol!  lol!
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Post by reylo1992 on Tue Feb 07, 2017 1:02 pm

Honestly, I believe like @ZioRen that Kylo shall show up on Ahch-To quite early. Perhaps the first time that we will really see him in the movie will be on Ahch-To. I don't think we will see his training or perhapd we might have some insight through Rey but I think that the biggest thing would be to have the general audience mirroring Luke & Rey's surprise when he shows up there unexpectedly early. After all, everybody was surprised that he took off his mask in the middle of TFA and that the screenwriters had his face reveal so early in the trilogy despite the parallel with Vader Now, eerybody seems to expect a final confrontation at the end of TLJ the same way it happened in ESB. So...
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Post by Guest on Tue Feb 07, 2017 1:17 pm

@reylo1992 wrote:Honestly, I believe like @ZioRen that Kylo shall show up on Ahch-To quite early. Perhaps the first time that we will really see him in the movie will be on Ahch-To. I don't think we will see his training or perhapd we might have some insight through Rey but I think that the biggest thing would be to have the general audience mirroring Luke & Rey's surprise when he shows up there unexpectedly early. After all, everybody was surprised that he took off his mask in the middle of TFA and that the screenwriters had his face reveal so early in the trilogy despite the parallel with Vader Now, eerybody seems to expect a final confrontation at the end of TLJ the same way it happened in ESB. So...
@reylo1992

I agree. I do think it'll be about half way in, but the whole intriguing dynamic with Reylo that was established in SWTFA is something the audience are really going to want to see, aside from what Luke's been up to and how he'll respond to Rey. I am really hoping for some kind of dreamscape in which Rey and Kylo communicate with each other through either a Force Bond or other mind link before they meet up again, though. There are endless possibilities with how it can go, and I really hope the writers use that with the amount of talent they have to work with.

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Post by motherofpearl1 on Tue Feb 07, 2017 1:20 pm

I just want to see what he's going to look like post Rey.... Twisted Evil
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Post by ISeeAnIsland on Tue Feb 07, 2017 1:20 pm

@FrolickingFizzgig wrote:
@ISeeAnIsland wrote:
@ZioRen wrote:
@Saracene wrote:There might be training in TLJ, but maybe not in the same straightforward manner of ESB where Luke showed up at Yoda's place with the intent of being trained.

I've always been sceptical about the idea of Kylo arriving on the island early, to be honest. I don't see his confrontation with Rey happening any earlier than midpoint of the movie, so what is he going to do before then? Just appear in shots of him loitering around?

Kylo/Luke fight is IMO extremely likely and in fact I would be surprised if it *didn't* happen. Rey might soften towards Kylo but I don't think Luke will, in this movie at least. It would be weird to have no encounter between them at all, and when it happens I think it's bound to be hostile in nature.
@Saracene

I'm glad I'm not the only one who never put too much stock in the idea that Kylo comes to the island early. I always thought the evidence behind it was rather weak. In fact, I don't even remember why we thought he came early? Because it may have been something MSW said, but they've backed off a lot of things regarding Kylo and his fight with Rey/Luke vs Knights of Ren. Even if he did arrive within the first half, I doubt he'd have a whole big fight with Luke and Rey at that moment as rumors suggest. That's a bizarrely large and important confrontation to have in the first half of the movie. I guess I'd give Rian props for playing with expectations if he did that, but I'm not holding my breath on it.

That's why that one "leak", though not from a reputable source at all, about the early arrival battle just being a vision made sense to me. Moreso than it actually happening for real. It's a bit rehashy, but Luke giving Rey this vision of how wrong it can go if she doesn't go all out against Kylo Ren would fit with the rumors that he's darker and wants Kylo dead. And it sets up Rey proving "fate" wrong. Plus it could mean that Kylo never actually knocks Rey off a cliff, which only bodes well for a Reylo trajectory.
@ZioRen

I don't put a lot of stock into Kylo showing up on Ahch-To super early, but I'm expecting it to happen towards the end of Act I or the end of the first half of TLJ. Why? Because if we're not getting a last-minute Vader-esque redemption for Kylo, his character needs time to grow and change, and I'd expect his interactions with Rey (and possibly Luke) to set that change in motion.

If the big Rey-Kylo duel doesn't happen until the climax of VIII, I think you can also close the coffin on the possibility of two-sided romantic Reylo in any capacity.

@ISeeAnIsland
Count me in as another who never believed Kylo was going to arrive right at the beginning of the movie, but around the first 45 minutes to one hour mark? Sure. Possibly indicating the end of the first act. I have much bigger doubts that the climax of the movie is going to be another Rey and Kylo duel. Rey already beat him in the first movie. I've always seen that victory as a big indication of where Kylo's character development is headed. You don't have your heroine defeat and utterly humiliate her already conflicted and being-used-by-a-bigger-threat villain in first act unless you intend to go in a very specific narrative direction, and that direction is not Kylo winning the second time in the second climax. Otherwise we can kiss a lot of our predictions goodbye.

That said, one thing that I think is often overlooked is the fact that there are two parts of the story left, not one. A lot of what I've always felt was coming pertains to both films, not just The Last Jedi. I have never expected Reylo to be definitively canon in Episode VIII, and I have no doubts that VIII is going to open the door to a whole bunch of new problems and complications. IMO, Kylo's redemption is absolutely not going to be sealed by the end of The Last Jedi either. Chances are it'll be the end goal more than the VIII goal, and I'm not saying we're getting a last-minute "throw Snoke into the engine" redemption, just that Kylo's inner-turmoil and struggle over both sides is likely not to be neatly wrapped up in only The Last Jedi's run-time.
@FrolickingFizzgig

I agree with you. I expect a lot of things to be fairly ambiguous by the end of TLJ. And I know that I'm one of the ones predicting a kiss, but along with that, I'm expecting it to be a "OMG, what did we just do?" sort of scenario that creates more questions than it answers.

Kylo's redemption arc will likely be the same. I expect that while we'll see some progress with Kylo--possibly something like saving Rey's life and/or going rogue or something... But the big change won't happen until IX, which I expect to be him defeating (or helping defeat) Snoke.
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Post by motherofpearl1 on Tue Feb 07, 2017 1:27 pm

There are a lot of parallels a la Beauty and the Beast here.

First of all...Beauty feels hatred towards the Beast. He abducts her and threatens her father.
This is TFA - Rey is abducted by Kylo, and Han Solo, her father figure, is murdered. She hates him

Secondly...Beauty begins to pity him. Rey will find something out about Kylo which causes her to change her feelings towards him - is this TLJ?

And finally....Beauty's pity turns to love. If Reylo happens I think it will be in episode IX. TLJ, I think, will see them come to an understanding. Love,if it happens, will come in the final part.
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Post by Helix on Tue Feb 07, 2017 1:49 pm

If Rey really wants to mess Kylo up she can just shave his head. Razz
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Post by motherofpearl1 on Tue Feb 07, 2017 1:52 pm

Oh no, not the hair!
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Post by Maria Antonietta on Tue Feb 07, 2017 1:56 pm

Don't touch his hair ;_;
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Post by vaderito on Tue Feb 07, 2017 1:58 pm

@Helix wrote:If Rey really wants to mess Kylo up she can just shave his head. Razz
@Helix

he'll strip to compensate. Twisted Evil

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Post by Xylo Ren on Tue Feb 07, 2017 2:36 pm

If the cliff scene is at the end of the movie you can pretty much kiss Reylo goodbye.

I can't see how they're antagonistic the entire film of VIII and then become reluctant allies to friends to lovers all in IX.

Cliff scene is middle or bust, imo.
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Post by Guest on Tue Feb 07, 2017 2:40 pm

@Xylo Ren wrote:If the cliff scene is at the end of the movie you can pretty much kiss Reylo goodbye.

I can't see how they're antagonistic the entire film of VIII and then become reluctant allies to friends to lovers all in IX.

Cliff scene is middle or bust, imo.
@Xylo Ren

Yeah, agreed. If Kylo doesn't start making a significant shift from Snoke and the FO (with no double crossing) I think romantic reciprocal Reylo is off the cards. There could still be room for redemption and some kind of mutual understanding but it can't all be left to Ep IX, IMO.

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Post by Guest on Tue Feb 07, 2017 2:43 pm

@Xylo Ren wrote:If the cliff scene is at the end of the movie you can pretty much kiss Reylo goodbye.

I can't see how they're antagonistic the entire film of VIII and then become reluctant allies to friends to lovers all in IX.

Cliff scene is middle or bust, imo.
@Xylo Ren

And there's also the question of if the cliff scene is part of a dream Rey has, or if it actually happens. Perhaps both? Wink I agree that it'll be mid-way through the movie, because there needs to be a character arc and actual development. Three movies of them being antagonistic to each other would be a let-down. Plus, there's also the amount of times during TFA when Lor San Tekka, Han, Leia, and Kylo Ren himself all remarked on there being light in him or giving a nod to his true origins. It's foreshadowing IMO. I think it's all going down in VIII.

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Post by CienaRee on Tue Feb 07, 2017 2:57 pm

Mrs Ben Solo wrote:
@Xylo Ren wrote:If the cliff scene is at the end of the movie you can pretty much kiss Reylo goodbye.

I can't see how they're antagonistic the entire film of VIII and then become reluctant allies to friends to lovers all in IX.

Cliff scene is middle or bust, imo.
@Xylo Ren

Yeah, agreed. If Kylo doesn't start making a significant shift from Snoke and the FO (with no double crossing) I think romantic reciprocal Reylo is off the cards. There could still be room for redemption and some kind of mutual understanding but it can't all be left to Ep IX, IMO.
@Mrs Ben Solo

RandomObserver wrote:
@Xylo Ren wrote:If the cliff scene is at the end of the movie you can pretty much kiss Reylo goodbye.

I can't see how they're antagonistic the entire film of VIII and then become reluctant allies to friends to lovers all in IX.

Cliff scene is middle or bust, imo.
@Xylo Ren

And there's also the question of if the cliff scene is part of a dream Rey has, or if it actually happens. Perhaps both? Wink I agree that it'll be mid-way through the movie, because there needs to be a character arc and actual development. Three movies of them being antagonistic to each other would be a let-down. Plus, there's also the amount of times during TFA when Lor San Tekka, Han, Leia, and Kylo Ren himself all remarked on there being light in him or giving a nod to his true origins. It's foreshadowing IMO. I think it's all going down in VIII.
@RandomObserver

Adam did say he was exicted for the movie showing Kylo's humanity so I can't think of hwo they would accomplish that if he didn't spend an amount of time with Rey(and Luke).He might not come to Anch To at the very beggining of the movie but I'm pretty sure we won't have an ESB rehash when Kylo and Rey meet and fight at the end of the movie not to mention how repetative it would be.

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Post by Moonjump05 on Tue Feb 07, 2017 3:11 pm

Tbh, if Kylo isn't showing up on the island at least pretty early, what is he doing? I doubt he is going to be Finn/KMT's immediate enemy. He could be training with Snoke, but that seems like a pacing issue in waiting. They could keep him in the dark, but then what? Have him show up suddenly to fight? Rey already kicked his a** the last time they interacted.

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Post by Saracene on Tue Feb 07, 2017 3:13 pm

I definitely don't think that Rey/Kylo fight is happening at the end of the film. I expect it to happen pretty much immediately after Kylo lands on the island, so if he only does this at the very end, what is he going to fill his time with for the first 4/5 of the film? In TFA Rey and Kylo had interactions before their big fight, but in TLJ I think their fight will be the *first* interaction between them. If there's a second lightsaber battle in the climax, I think it's more likely to happen between Kylo and Luke.
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Post by FrolickingFizzgig on Tue Feb 07, 2017 3:19 pm

@MoonJump05
@Saracene
He's going to be standing around getting eeeevilllllllerrrrr, duh. Force-choking and Force-zapping Mitaka, cosplaying with Vader's helmet, possibly maniacally cackling for an entire five minute thought-provoking sequence, and of course plotting to kill Leia. Razz
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Post by Darth_Awakened on Tue Feb 07, 2017 3:37 pm

Guys, I don't know, maybe I'am wrong - but I'am convinced Zeroh has just mixed up all stuff that MSW reported back in May. And made his own speculations on it and nothing else.
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Post by reylo1992 on Tue Feb 07, 2017 3:39 pm

Let's be confident that Kylo will show up quite early guys/girls Smile

After all, Rey and Kyo met exactly right in the middle of TFA. Then, they had only 10 minutes screentimes together but it's mostly because Rey escaped and Kylo was too busy with Han. Then, they were also busy chasing and fighting each other the rest of the time.

I don't think that it would make sense anyway to have Kylo showing up later than in the middle of the movie. Vader & Luke shared more and more screen time with the time:
- ANH: no interaction ==> only distant fight
- ESB: end of the movie ==> revelation of the Father-Son connection
- ROTJ: middle of the movie ==> reunion of the Father and the Son
As Kylo & Rey already met in the middle of TFA, they will probably have more screen time no matter when they meet in the TLJ. Plus it is supposed to be a love story between these two and there are really a lot of things to clear between them. They shared barely 10 minutes screentime and nearly didn't interacted in TFA:

- Takodana scene
==> Kylo talks more to himself than to Rey who doesn't say a single word

- Interrogation scene
==> They exchange some lines but it has only to do with business/war (mostly about the droid). Plus, Kylo talks mostly alone, with Rey deliberately ignoring him

- Fight scene:
==> This time, their line has some personal dimension. For the first time, it sounds and look like a real dialog where both of them do interact by both talking and looking at each other direct in the eyes - even if it sounds and looks very much like a couple fighting

Kylo: We're not done yet!

Rey: You're a monster!

Kylo: It's just us now! Han Solo can't save you

...................

Kylo: You need a teacher! I can show you the ways of the Force

Rey: The Force?


==> Best example that these two desperately need to talk to each other more in TLJ in order to clear things between them. Especially about what happened during the Force moment and what consequences it had.
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Post by ISeeAnIsland on Tue Feb 07, 2017 3:46 pm

RandomObserver wrote:
@Xylo Ren wrote:If the cliff scene is at the end of the movie you can pretty much kiss Reylo goodbye.

I can't see how they're antagonistic the entire film of VIII and then become reluctant allies to friends to lovers all in IX.

Cliff scene is middle or bust, imo.
@Xylo Ren

And there's also the question of if the cliff scene is part of a dream Rey has, or if it actually happens. Perhaps both? Wink I agree that it'll be mid-way through the movie, because there needs to be a character arc and actual development. Three movies of them being antagonistic to each other would be a let-down. Plus, there's also the amount of times during TFA when Lor San Tekka, Han, Leia, and Kylo Ren himself all remarked on there being light in him or giving a nod to his true origins. It's foreshadowing IMO. I think it's all going down in VIII.
@RandomObserver

I'm pretty sure that the only person to report that there's a dream sequence at the beginning and that the actual fight is at the end was that iwasraisedtodoonething blogger guy. And he's definitely not a reliable source.
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Post by Guest on Tue Feb 07, 2017 3:50 pm

I don't think the Ahch-To confrontation/lightsaber fight will be near the end, and here's why:

- The KOR reportedly show up in the evening, according to MSW. And I think there were eye witnesses who said flashes of light could be seen on the island at night. And it just makes more sense for a duel to occur in the darkness of night, along with pouring rain.

- There was at least one scene filmed of Kylo walking around on the island seemingly by himself during the day. This logically would have occurred after any initial encounter and lightsaber duel. Since he appeared to be alone, it could be speculated that the KOR are dead.

- What is happening for the rest of the two hours, then? Rey and Kylo are the main protagonist and antagonist of the film. They can't have a "very interesting relationship moving forward" if they're kept separate for nearly all of the next movie.

So, I don't really believe all of this will happen so late in the film, nor do I think Kylo is going to reveal Rey's parents to her while she's backed against the edge of a cliff. I doubt he even has any idea. Whoever came up with that is simply hoping for ESB v.2.

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Post by Piper Maru on Tue Feb 07, 2017 3:51 pm

I would be quite content with one-sided Reylo, so I don't really expect 'romantic' developments in VIII.

However, Rey and Kylo need to talk. Their relationship needs to evolve and they have to share more lines. Rey barely talks when she's around him, and it would be such a waste for their dynamic if their conversations are always like "Blablabla I can take whatever I want" / "Blablabla YOU MONSTAAAH!".
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