AFTERMATH: EMPIRE'S END (Countdown, Speculation, Reviews, Spoilers)

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Post by ZioRen on Wed 15 Feb 2017, 2:07 pm

@Irina de France wrote:
@SanghaRen wrote:Jumping in on Leia and Luke not realizing that Ben was the victim of Snoke.

Maybe Luke and Leia did not sense the danger because Ben did not show any sign of being a victim of a predator. Why assume that Snoke was already clawing in from the start? He could have been a re-assuring presence at first for Ben, poisoning his mind little by little. There was a discussion in some thread some months ago about Snoke acting as Ben's invisible friend. If Snoke is good at masking his Force presence, Leia and Luke would only feel the disturbance in Ben and if Snoke told Ben to not mention him, you'd have everyone being unaware of what was really going on and think that Ben was a troublesome kid and teenager, which would also explain why Leia preferred to say nothing about Vader's true identity.
@SanghaRen

Honestly, Ben doesn't look like the kind of person who'd keep his feelings bottled up. I mean, his outbursts on equipment are the proof. I think the issue is that he never learned how to canalize it all properly, hence the outbursts.

God, his so-called tantrums get more tragic by the minute. Sad
@Irina de France

What if he wasn't always like what we see in TFA? What if he lashed out at times as a kid, but after he was sent to Luke he "bottled up". Tried to hide how he felt, since showing it before got him sent away. Maybe he thought that was how to "fix it", or was emulating Luke since that's a Jedi thing. So perhaps everyone thought he was actually doing better, when he wasn't.

So what he's doing now could just be actively letting out emotions he felt like he couldn't before. For someone who is obviously naturally emotional to bottle himself up is very dangerous. It would undoubtedly contribute to a stormy mental state as well.
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Post by Irina de France on Wed 15 Feb 2017, 2:09 pm

@ZioRen wrote:
@Irina de France wrote:
@SanghaRen wrote:Jumping in on Leia and Luke not realizing that Ben was the victim of Snoke.

Maybe Luke and Leia did not sense the danger because Ben did not show any sign of being a victim of a predator. Why assume that Snoke was already clawing in from the start? He could have been a re-assuring presence at first for Ben, poisoning his mind little by little. There was a discussion in some thread some months ago about Snoke acting as Ben's invisible friend. If Snoke is good at masking his Force presence, Leia and Luke would only feel the disturbance in Ben and if Snoke told Ben to not mention him, you'd have everyone being unaware of what was really going on and think that Ben was a troublesome kid and teenager, which would also explain why Leia preferred to say nothing about Vader's true identity.
@SanghaRen

Honestly, Ben doesn't look like the kind of person who'd keep his feelings bottled up. I mean, his outbursts on equipment are the proof. I think the issue is that he never learned how to canalize it all properly, hence the outbursts.

God, his so-called tantrums get more tragic by the minute. Sad
@Irina de France

What if he wasn't always like what we see in TFA? What if he lashed out at times as a kid, but after he was sent to Luke he "bottled up". Tried to hide how he felt, since showing it before got him sent away. Maybe he thought that was how to "fix it", or was emulating Luke since that's a Jedi thing. So perhaps everyone thought he was actually doing better, when he wasn't.

So what he's doing now could just be actively letting out emotions he felt like he couldn't before. For someone who is obviously naturally emotional to bottle himself up is very dangerous. It would undoubtedly contribute to a stormy mental state as well.
@ZioRen

I mean, the Jedi Code *could* be interpreted as bottling up your emotions in order to achieve "serenity". It's basically what happened with Anakin, and that's one of the major reasons why I think Rey is anything but good Jedi material.
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Post by vaderito on Wed 15 Feb 2017, 2:47 pm

The biggest question here is what did Rey see in Kylo's mind that will have ramifications in TLJ and may be the reason why she opposes Luke's urging to kill him? is it child abuse-while--a-baby or something else?
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Post by SkyStar on Wed 15 Feb 2017, 4:01 pm

You can still be extroverted and bottle emotions inside. It happens when you want to be accepted by others, so you try to fit your behavior just to be liked, but never achieve your goal and become more and more frustrated. For others you are either too emotional or too tranquil - caring to much or not at all, never right. Perhaps that is why Han said "There's too much Vader in him." He thought Ben doesn't care, when in fact I believe he cares too much.

I believe he was forced to grow up too fast as a child. Maybe he was scared to lose Leia, perhaps he comforted her after arguing with Han or having other problems. Then child makes decision to hide his real feelings about others - maybe he tried to downplay Hans leaving after arguing for Leia just to make her more happy. Perhaps that is why at the time Leia thought everything is fine and it only got to her later.

However the emotions don't go away by themselves and it probably erupted as aggression in early teenage years. In SW he probably had some force outburst, but in the real life kid would be antisocial and have behavioral problems - being aggressive to peers, animals etc. The parents then don't understand that the cause of it is themselves and child is just reacting to their unresolved conflicts. After that he probably felt angry at his parents, because deep inside he blamed them for his miserable situation. Even Hux was more of a healthy person, than he.

If Kylo was healthy, he would be feeler - making decisions based on his feelings. However he has mental illness, so he cannot understand what he really wants and what he needs. He tries to be pragmatic and fails. He wants to be accepted, but just destroys everything himself.
In my teenage years I was obsessed with Russian classic literature, where Byronic Hero is a common trope. For the protagonist the biggest need was to just be accepted at society, but it was always combined with understanding the shallowness of it. Wanting so much to be included and in the same time despising everyone ("Do you mean the murderers, traitors and thieves you call friends?"). Hating yourself for the need to be accepted and loved ("He was weak and foolish like his father, so I destroyed him.")

The only thing that could liberate him is to have someone who discovers his greatest fears. However it is hard if he oppresses and hides his fears oh so well. Therefore I found intriguing, that movie made Rey do just that and not by Kylos choice. He was forced to open to her and now they are forever connected. I really think he is ashamed of his real feelings and she made him feel exposed. And more it happens - the calmer he gets. Because if you are ashamed of your fears and don't share them with anybody else - the storm cloud tearing you apart never leaves.  

I would like to see young Ben with Snoke in Reys force vision. I would love to see him spot her and ask for help. How can she hate him after that? A child targeted by predator asking for help?

Sorry, hope I made sense. English is my 3d language.
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Post by Helix on Wed 15 Feb 2017, 4:14 pm

the mental and emotional abuse of a person since before birth doesn't matter if they murdered your fictional childhood hero. It just means their mother needs to brutally kill them. Razz
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Post by SoloSideCousin on Wed 15 Feb 2017, 4:31 pm

@SkyStar wrote:You can still be extroverted and bottle emotions inside. It happens when you want to be accepted by others, so you try to fit your behavior just to be liked, but never achieve your goal and become more and more frustrated. For others you are either too emotional or too tranquil - caring to much or not at all, never right. Perhaps that is why Han said "There's too much Vader in him." He thought Ben doesn't care, when in fact I believe he cares too much.

I believe he was forced to grow up too fast as a child. Maybe he was scared to lose Leia, perhaps he comforted her after arguing with Han or having other problems. Then child makes decision to hide his real feelings about others - maybe he tried to downplay Hans leaving after arguing for Leia just to make her more happy. Perhaps that is why at the time Leia thought everything is fine and it only got to her later.

However the emotions don't go away by themselves and it probably erupted as aggression in early teenage years. In SW he probably had some force outburst, but in the real life kid would be antisocial and have behavioral problems - being aggressive to peers, animals etc. The parents then don't understand that the cause of it is themselves and child is just reacting to their unresolved conflicts. After that he probably felt angry at his parents, because deep inside he blamed them for his miserable situation. Even Hux was more of a healthy person, than he.

If Kylo was healthy, he would be feeler - making decisions based on his feelings. However he has mental illness, so he cannot understand what he really wants and what he needs. He tries to be pragmatic and fails. He wants to be accepted, but just destroys everything himself.
In my teenage years I was obsessed with Russian classic literature, where Byronic Hero is a common trope. For the protagonist the biggest need was to just be accepted at society, but it was always combined with understanding the shallowness of it. Wanting so much to be included and in the same time despising everyone ("Do you mean the murderers, traitors and thieves you call friends?"). Hating yourself for the need to be accepted and loved ("He was weak and foolish like his father, so I destroyed him.")

The only thing that could liberate him is to have someone who discovers his greatest fears. However it is hard if he oppresses and hides his fears oh so well. Therefore I found intriguing, that movie made Rey do just that and not by Kylos choice. He was forced to open to her and now they are forever connected. I really think he is ashamed of his real feelings and she made him feel exposed. And more it happens - the calmer he gets. Because if you are ashamed of your fears and don't share them with anybody else - the storm cloud tearing you apart never leaves.  

I would like to see young Ben with Snoke in Reys force vision. I would love to see him spot her and ask for help. How can she hate him after that? A child targeted by predator asking for help?

Sorry, hope I made sense. English is my 3d language.
@SkyStar

Can I send my kid to the language school you went to? Because you express yourself very well. :-)

I agree with what you are saying here, and OMG, your envisioned scene of a young Ben asking Rey for help just stopped my heart for a second. That is such a powerful moment that I will actually be annoyed if the creative team does not do something like that.

And all of this ... being tormented by Snoke (OMG, that mention above of "strangling" in @vaderito's post is still giving me chills), and having a duel force signature, being an utter victim, yet also being the utter fighter ( not falling for 23 years, controlling his pain and emotions to "seem" okay, perhaps smashing machinery to keep the real bad dark "just kill them like Vader" voices away ...all of this is why KK desperately wanted Adam Driver because can and will be both the most messed up, pathetic creature possible and the most bada**, powerful, strong presence possible. We talk about Kylo/Ben being a "tank" for how he keeps going with a massive wound in his belly ... that visual may end up being the ultimate metaphor for who Kylo/Ben is. Talk about endurance. Talk about surviving. Adam is going to kill this thing!
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Post by Pyro Nebula on Wed 15 Feb 2017, 4:33 pm

@FrolickingFizzgig wrote:
@Pyro Nebula wrote:Interesting. Hopefully, certain elements of Snoke's depravity should be shown on in TLJ for the GA. It's great the novels expands the disturbing influence Snoke had on Ben during Leia's pregnancy, but would the GA know that? Their impression of Kylo from TFA is one volatile, cruel, evil war criminal who gave the order to slaughter villagers, brutally tortured Poe and together with Rey, witnessed Kylo murdering His father and splitting Finn's back open, therefore he's a "monster ", beyond redemption and Rey's 'cousin/brother'  confused

For the GA to become more receptive to Reylo, or at least Ben's worthy for redemption, they need to be shown reasons why they should be sympathetic towards the 'cursed prince' (as well as expanding the force bond with Rey and her empathy) I'm sure most would not have read the new EU, only what's shown on the big screen, Leia only mentioned Snoke seducing Ben to the Dark Side but not exactly when. If they see memories of Snoke's repulsive influence on a very young Ben, maybe they'll scream, "Oh Rey, save him!!!"

As for the antis, they're beyond redemption (hope that's not imflammatory)

Cheers.
@Pyro Nebula
When they clearly hold back something in ancillary material you can guarantee there's a reason, and that reason is it'll be explored elsewhere (in this case the films). Ben's actual backstory (everything beyond being targeted by Snoke in the womb and mentioned briefly in Bloodline) hasn't been outlined at all because it's going to be in TLJ/IX. Same goes for anything regarding Rey's backstory/origins. If it wasn't canonically important to the movies I guarantee we would have received a comic or book adaptation of Ben's origin story already as there has been a massive demand for it, as we did with Poe's and Hux's pasts. So IMO there's no doubt that they're saving certain things for the movies when it comes to Ben and what happened to him. His relationship with Luke, what the two of them were doing, how Snoke got to him, what really happened to the other members of the young generation of Jedi, etc. is going to be part of the ST story.

@ZioRen
It can be extremely brief, trust me. We have confirmation from MSW that they're exploring the massacre, and if they're exploring that no doubt they're going back further as well. Maybe not flashbacks, but none of it even has to be outright stated. Rey would need only see images or small scenes (like she already did in the Force Back) in order for the audience to grasp what happened.
@FrolickingFizzgig

I agree the screenwriters would withhold certain parts of the story back. TFA already raised a lot of questions, theories and fights (amusing and rather frightening) amongst fans and shippers etc alone. They don't want to overwhelm  the audience with too much and allows them to expand the back stories to other forms of mediums. That said, not everyone is interested in the EU canon, so including a scene in relation to Snoke's interference will help the GA understand Ben's history and evoke more compassion for him.

s***, better get back to work.

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Post by Rogue Rey on Wed 15 Feb 2017, 5:01 pm

I always thought Snoke was more than just a hologram of a guy sitting on a dais.

I will watch TFA with new eyes now, if it was indeed the case that Snoke was influencing Ben in the womb which given the chat here it certainly seems the case   Sad Sad

I can envision some very emotional and powerful scenes from AD coming up to get this across to the GA without it being too explicit.

Oh and I've got some reading to do - not even started Aftermath!!!!! Aaaaaahhhhhhh Twisted Evil Shocked WTH Shy Nope ROFL
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Post by Guest on Wed 15 Feb 2017, 5:38 pm

OK, so I have thought more about Rey's possible dark origins, and how this ties to everything else.

I am quite positive that Rey is not related to anyone we've seen in the Force Awakens. Making her related to the Skywalkers would fail to bridge every gap; Rey Skywalker would still have an emotional disconnect from Snoke and the war itself.

Rey is no hired mercenary or sidekick; she's the heroine, and that means she isn't going to be fighting someone else's war. This has to be her war. The conflict needs to not only be very personal, but must involve her directly.

I am still piecing this puzzle together, and I thought I'd start by analyzing Rey's Force vision from the angle of her having a dark lineage.


1. The Fall of the Empire
AFTERMATH: EMPIRE'S END (Countdown, Speculation, Reviews, Spoilers) - Page 8 T83dxc

Rey as the daughter of Imperials would have been negatively impacted by the defeat of the Empire. The darkened corridor in Cloud City, occupied by Imperial forces, crumbles to the ground in the vision as a possible metaphor of their destruction. As the hallway collapses on itself, we can hear young Rey screaming in the background. The Empire's fall could be linked to her abandonment if her parents were part of an Imperial outpost on Jakku that later got discovered or destroyed.


2. The Jedi Massacre
AFTERMATH: EMPIRE'S END (Countdown, Speculation, Reviews, Spoilers) - Page 8 2ut3ltd

Luke's temple burns off-screen, sending fiery sparks drifting through the air, after Kylo Ren has slaughtered all of the padawans. Rey is connected to this scene of shocking betrayal if her Imperial parents were responsible for uncovering the “dark presence” sensed by Palpatine within Jakku, if that presence is Snoke. It is confirmed that the son of Han and Leia had been targeted by an evil presence since the beginning, and it was that manipulation which ultimately turned Ben Solo into Kylo Ren.


3. The First Order Rose From the Dark Side
AFTERMATH: EMPIRE'S END (Countdown, Speculation, Reviews, Spoilers) - Page 8 2hztrp3

Rey meets the Knights of Ren on a corpse-covered field pelted with rain. The location might not matter as much as the fact that she is surrounded by bodies, all slain presumably by the masked dark side warriors in front of her. If Rey is the daughter of the people who released an ancient evil onto the galaxy, then this is the direct result of their actions: widespread death and ruin. This horrifying scene is therefore linked to our heroine through her dark side lineage.


4. Rey's Abandonment
AFTERMATH: EMPIRE'S END (Countdown, Speculation, Reviews, Spoilers) - Page 8 A9vghi

The nature of her parents' crimes may have led to their fleeing into some unknown region of the galaxy; the red eclipse into which their ship disappears might be the look of a high-risk manipulation of space and time that was too dangerous for bringing along a child. They may have died, or it was physically impossible for them to come back. As a result of their absence, Rey grew up without their dark side influence, and was free to make her own good choices in life.


5. Kylo Ren
AFTERMATH: EMPIRE'S END (Countdown, Speculation, Reviews, Spoilers) - Page 8 20uool1

Kylo Ren, the main antagonist to our heroine, would not exist at all without the dark presence of Snoke. Family is very important to Rey, and if she learns that they were involved in the release of an evil creature that corrupted Ben Solo until he became Kylo Ren, she will be devastated. She will, as the protagonist, feel a personal sense of obligation to undo the damage as much as she can, by defeating Snoke, redeeming Ben, and restoring balance in the Force. This is her war. These are the intertwined destinies of Kylo Ren and Rey.

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Post by Piper Maru on Wed 15 Feb 2017, 6:23 pm

I think the simple fact that Snoke targetted Ben while he was on his mother's womb due to his bloodline rules out the possibility of Reywalker. If Rey was a Skywalker, she would be targetted as well, and abandoning her on Jakku to save her from this manipulation wouldn't make a difference. Snoke doesn't even know who she is, he just feels the awakening and is surprised that Kylo lost to her (implying that he didn't have a clue about her power.)
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Post by Xylo Ren on Wed 15 Feb 2017, 6:25 pm

I HATE Snoke. He needs to die.

This also really does sound like reverse Anakin too. He was targeted by Palpatine from a young age (when he became Obi Wan's padawan) and it worked for a long time. Maybe Snoke used the emperor's example and knew to target Ben because Palps did it first.

This is so freaking sad. I hate Snoke.
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Post by Kessel on Wed 15 Feb 2017, 6:25 pm

Wow, what amazing excerpts and info coming out of the Aftermath novel. There's a lot to ponder!

I love @Reylosaur's theory about Rey's origins. I think it would be a really unique and original take on the story and it makes all the pieces fit.

Spoiler:

Those excerpts about baby Ben are gut wrenching, but when you really think about it, it's not all that surprising that Ben would be targeted from the time he was in the womb. You could tell from TFA Kylo was a tortured soul and being a Skywalker would make him a clear target to anyone or anything that had the ability to sense him via the Force. As we all knew, it looks like the antis were wrong (AGAIN) and there's going to be much more to Ben's fall than just being a spoiled brat who decided to be dark to be like grandpa. As if that would be the story...

I really find Luke's quote to Leia, about "the brighter the light, the darker the shadow" interesting. It looks like Ben's light side is going to shine through by the end of the trilogy.

I was kind of disappointed to hear Ben was probably not born on Jakku during the battle. I still think it would have been an interesting twist. Oh well.
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Post by Pyro Nebula on Wed 15 Feb 2017, 7:24 pm

Picture it: Fight of the Galaxy

Snoke vs Rey

Prize: Ben's heart, mind and soul.

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Post by SoloSideCousin on Wed 15 Feb 2017, 7:29 pm

reylosaur wrote:OK, so I have thought more about Rey's possible dark origins, and how this ties to everything else.

I am quite positive that Rey is not related to anyone we've seen in the Force Awakens. Making her related to the Skywalkers would fail to bridge every gap; Rey Skywalker would still have an emotional disconnect from Snoke and the war itself.

Rey is no hired mercenary or sidekick; she's the heroine, and that means she isn't going to be fighting someone else's war. This has to be her war. The conflict needs to not only be very personal, but must involve her directly.

I am still piecing this puzzle together, and I thought I'd start by analyzing Rey's Force vision from the angle of her having a dark lineage.


1. The Fall of the Empire
AFTERMATH: EMPIRE'S END (Countdown, Speculation, Reviews, Spoilers) - Page 8 T83dxc

Rey as the daughter of Imperials would have been negatively impacted by the defeat of the Empire. The darkened corridor in Cloud City, occupied by Imperial forces, crumbles to the ground in the vision as a possible metaphor of their destruction. As the hallway collapses on itself, we can hear young Rey screaming in the background. The Empire's fall could be linked to her abandonment if her parents were part of an Imperial outpost on Jakku that later got discovered or destroyed.


2. The Jedi Massacre
AFTERMATH: EMPIRE'S END (Countdown, Speculation, Reviews, Spoilers) - Page 8 2ut3ltd

Luke's temple burns off-screen, sending fiery sparks drifting through the air, after Kylo Ren has slaughtered all of the padawans. Rey is connected to this scene of shocking betrayal if her Imperial parents were responsible for uncovering the “dark presence” sensed by Palpatine within Jakku, if that presence is Snoke. It is confirmed that the son of Han and Leia had been targeted by an evil presence since the beginning, and it was that manipulation which ultimately turned Ben Solo into Kylo Ren.


3. The First Order Rose From the Dark Side
AFTERMATH: EMPIRE'S END (Countdown, Speculation, Reviews, Spoilers) - Page 8 2hztrp3

Rey meets the Knights of Ren on a corpse-covered field pelted with rain. The location might not matter as much as the fact that she is surrounded by bodies, all slain presumably by the masked dark side warriors in front of her. If Rey is the daughter of the people who released an ancient evil onto the galaxy, then this is the direct result of their actions: widespread death and ruin. This horrifying scene is therefore linked to our heroine through her dark side lineage.


4. Rey's Abandonment
AFTERMATH: EMPIRE'S END (Countdown, Speculation, Reviews, Spoilers) - Page 8 A9vghi

The nature of her parents' crimes may have led to their fleeing into some unknown region of the galaxy; the red eclipse into which their ship disappears might be the look of a high-risk manipulation of space and time that was too dangerous for bringing along a child. They may have died, or it was physically impossible for them to come back. As a result of their absence, Rey grew up without their dark side influence, and was free to make her own good choices in life.


5. Kylo Ren
AFTERMATH: EMPIRE'S END (Countdown, Speculation, Reviews, Spoilers) - Page 8 20uool1

Kylo Ren, the main antagonist to our heroine, would not exist at all without the dark presence of Snoke. Family is very important to Rey, and if she learns that they were involved in the release of an evil creature that corrupted Ben Solo until he became Kylo Ren, she will be devastated. She will, as the protagonist, feel a personal sense of obligation to undo the damage as much as she can, by defeating Snoke, redeeming Ben, and restoring balance in the Force. This is her war. These are the intertwined destinies of Kylo Ren and Rey.
@reylosaur

I really like your theory a lot. I had some thoughts while driving to Pei Wei today for lunch that may tie into what you say here.  It involves some of the spoiler Aftermath stuff and triggering and dark origins Rey amd perhaps Rey being meant for darker things but actually being spared that because of her abandonment. I can't get the spoiler mode to work on my phone, but I will write it up when I get to my laptop. Great analysis!
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Post by Guest on Wed 15 Feb 2017, 7:50 pm

@SoloSideCousin

Thank you. Very Happy I look forward to reading your thoughts when you get a chance.

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Post by ZioRen on Wed 15 Feb 2017, 7:56 pm

@Piper Maru wrote:I think the simple fact that Snoke targetted Ben while he was on his mother's womb due to his bloodline rules out the possibility of Reywalker. If Rey was a Skywalker, she would be targetted as well, and abandoning her on Jakku to save her from this manipulation wouldn't make a difference. Snoke doesn't even know who she is, he just feels the awakening and is surprised that Kylo lost to her (implying that he didn't have a clue about her power.)
@Piper Maru

Yep. He's watching Skywalkers this closely and he somehow misses Luke's kid? I don't buy that Luke "hid" her in any way either because I doubt he was so aware of the entirety of Snoke's machinations at the point when Rey was born. Otherwise he would have been much more proactive with protecting Ben and likely would have made Leia and Han aware.

There was no indication that Snoke thought Rey was significant beyond her being "an awakening" and messing with Kylo's loyalty.
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Post by SkyStar on Wed 15 Feb 2017, 8:25 pm

@SoloSideCousin wrote:
@SkyStar wrote:You can still be extroverted and bottle emotions inside. It happens when you want to be accepted by others, so you try to fit your behavior just to be liked, but never achieve your goal and become more and more frustrated. For others you are either too emotional or too tranquil - caring to much or not at all, never right. Perhaps that is why Han said "There's too much Vader in him." He thought Ben doesn't care, when in fact I believe he cares too much.

I believe he was forced to grow up too fast as a child. Maybe he was scared to lose Leia, perhaps he comforted her after arguing with Han or having other problems. Then child makes decision to hide his real feelings about others - maybe he tried to downplay Hans leaving after arguing for Leia just to make her more happy. Perhaps that is why at the time Leia thought everything is fine and it only got to her later.

However the emotions don't go away by themselves and it probably erupted as aggression in early teenage years. In SW he probably had some force outburst, but in the real life kid would be antisocial and have behavioral problems - being aggressive to peers, animals etc. The parents then don't understand that the cause of it is themselves and child is just reacting to their unresolved conflicts. After that he probably felt angry at his parents, because deep inside he blamed them for his miserable situation. Even Hux was more of a healthy person, than he.

If Kylo was healthy, he would be feeler - making decisions based on his feelings. However he has mental illness, so he cannot understand what he really wants and what he needs. He tries to be pragmatic and fails. He wants to be accepted, but just destroys everything himself.
In my teenage years I was obsessed with Russian classic literature, where Byronic Hero is a common trope. For the protagonist the biggest need was to just be accepted at society, but it was always combined with understanding the shallowness of it. Wanting so much to be included and in the same time despising everyone ("Do you mean the murderers, traitors and thieves you call friends?"). Hating yourself for the need to be accepted and loved ("He was weak and foolish like his father, so I destroyed him.")

The only thing that could liberate him is to have someone who discovers his greatest fears. However it is hard if he oppresses and hides his fears oh so well. Therefore I found intriguing, that movie made Rey do just that and not by Kylos choice. He was forced to open to her and now they are forever connected. I really think he is ashamed of his real feelings and she made him feel exposed. And more it happens - the calmer he gets. Because if you are ashamed of your fears and don't share them with anybody else - the storm cloud tearing you apart never leaves.  

I would like to see young Ben with Snoke in Reys force vision. I would love to see him spot her and ask for help. How can she hate him after that? A child targeted by predator asking for help?

Sorry, hope I made sense. English is my 3d language.
@SkyStar

Can I send my kid to the language school you went to? Because you express yourself very well. :-)

I agree with what you are saying here, and OMG, your envisioned scene of a young Ben asking Rey for help just stopped my heart for a second. That is such a powerful moment that I will actually be annoyed if the creative team does not do something like that.

And all of this ... being tormented by Snoke (OMG, that mention above of "strangling" in @vaderito's post is still giving me chills), and having a duel force signature, being an utter victim, yet also being the utter fighter ( not falling for 23 years, controlling his pain and emotions to "seem" okay, perhaps smashing machinery to keep the real bad dark "just kill them like Vader" voices away ...all of this is why KK desperately wanted Adam Driver because can and will be both the most messed up, pathetic creature possible and the most bada**, powerful, strong presence possible. We talk about Kylo/Ben being a "tank" for how he keeps going with a massive wound in his belly ... that visual may end up being the ultimate metaphor for who Kylo/Ben is. Talk about endurance. Talk about surviving. Adam is going to kill this thing!
@SoloSideCousin

Thank you! ^^

Many have speculated, that Kylo have seen Rey previously in a vision. However what if that was a dream when he was still a child and he saw Rey with Anakin's lightsaber? He probably wouldn't recognize her right away, but after seeing lightsaber calling to her it could be  the "it is you" moment. That would show how their destinies have been  intertwined even before they met. And that would surely leave him puzzled - why this seemingly nobody girl have been in my dream? Also Rey recalled seeing Kylo in a daydream, in a nightmare. Would also draw a parallel to Anakin first meeting Padme.  

@reylosaur I adored your point about Rey being the heroine, so she needs to fight her war! You really put everything into a nice wrap up.
For me this theory seems the most simple yet effective one.
Also I can't just shake off this quote from Bloodline: "Casterfo had the same sort of aristocratic accent Grand Moff Tarkin had spoken in, the one so many senior Imperial officers affected." I know many have debated whether Reys accent matters or not. I think it does and her speaking Coruscant could add to imperial background.


Crack theory - Han was looking at Rey with such strange fascination because he wondered  - why does this seemingly no-one scavenger girl has this noble accent? "Nah, who cares"
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Post by MeadowofAshes on Wed 15 Feb 2017, 9:51 pm

Wait, guys. Noble accent. Abandoned on Jakku, where the creepy Children of the Corn are from. Maybe Rey is one of Brendol's bastards. I'd root for this complete and utter crack theory just to see the poo-sniffing lip curl on Armitage when he learns Ren is banging his kid sister.

In all seriousness, that baby Ben stuff has 100% redemption with survival outcome written all over it. Although that was my feeling before, I like to keep some reasonable doubt. Now, no way is Ben dying and not being reborn literally. And a physical rebirth has never seemed more apropos for Ben Solo seeing as his first birth was tainted by darkness.

Also, as a mother, en utero creeping is a horrifying concept. Protecting my children was my strongest drive during pregnancy and the first few months after their birth. I know Ben and Rey will probably be the ones to do Snoke in, but I hope it's Leia who gets that satisfaction.


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Post by snufkin on Wed 15 Feb 2017, 10:23 pm

reylosaur wrote:Rey is no hired mercenary or sidekick; she's the heroine, and that means she isn't going to be fighting someone else's war. This has to be her war. The conflict needs to not only be very personal, but must involve her directly.

I like this theory! And that's been my feeling every since the first viewing, the Force Plot and origins of Snoke's masterplan/targeted Ben ties in directly with what happened to make her parents disappear and leave her orphaned on Jakku. Those two threads have to connect for a variety of reasons, including the eventual ties/bonds between those two characters. Rey's coming of age is to learn who she really is and who she wants to be. So that has to tie in with the Force Plot because in larger strokes, it's the same story for how Ben ended up with Snoke.

@MeadowofAshes wrote:Wait, guys. Noble accent. Abandoned on Jakku, where the creepy Children of the Corn are from. Maybe Rey is one of Brendol's bastards. I'd root for this complete and utter crack theory just to see the poo-sniffing lip curl on Armitage when he learns Ren is banging his kid sister.

That would be worth seeing for the awkward family reunion and Reywalkers freaking out when it's revealed she is somebody's relative after all. If there ever is a face to face between those two, you'd imagine that Hux the striver will be extra nasty/snobby towards her for being lower class (and banging Ren).
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Post by SoloSideCousin on Thu 16 Feb 2017, 12:09 am

@MeadowofAshes wrote:Wait, guys. Noble accent. Abandoned on Jakku, where the creepy Children of the Corn are from. Maybe Rey is one of Brendol's bastards. I'd root for this complete and utter crack theory just to see the poo-sniffing lip curl on Armitage when he learns Ren is banging his kid sister.

In all seriousness, that baby Ben stuff has 100% redemption with survival outcome written all over it. Although that was my feeling before, I like to keep some reasonable doubt. Now, no way is Ben dying and not being reborn literally. And a physical rebirth has never seemed more apropos for Ben Solo seeing as his first birth was tainted by darkness.

Also, as a mother, en utero creeping is a horrifying concept. Protecting my children was my strongest drive during pregnancy and the first few months after their birth. I know Ben and Rey will probably be the ones to do Snoke in, but I hope it's Leia who gets that satisfaction.
@MeadowofAshes

And you have provided a great intro for my "driving to Pei Wei theory" that I told @reylosaur I would write up when I finally got to my laptop.  It involves the Children of the Corn as you say. Very Happy Okay, so I was thinking about said Children and thought
Spoiler:
about how they seem to be being trained as some kind of super soldiers, like some kind of little evil Jason Bournes, who probably have incredible fighting and survival skills.  Rey may or may not be a Hux, but I think it's possible that she is part of this "FO Needs Children/Child Assassins of Jakku" project.  She's got the perfect imperial accent.  She's connected with Jakku, where the kids seem to be from.  She has somehow survived the impossible, living in a thoroughly hostile place for 15 years..  She has mental built-in need to stay on Jakku that seems to only be successfully overcome after her meeting with Kylo Ren and her personal force discovery.

So think about that scene in Aftermath where the kids killed all those stormtroopers.  What did they do first? *They turned off the light.*  What if this is a trigger for them to go into assassin mode? ... So that made me think of two things.  First, the obvious one ... based on AD's acting and JJ's commentary there is some argument to be made that the sun dying played some part in Kylo's split second decision to kill Han.  (Also given the fact that Han seemed to be the one who could calm the Baby Ben down, maybe there was something protective and powerful about Han, something Snoke needed to avoid and overcome, so some wedge was engineered between them? But that's a theory for another day and needs a lot more evidence and definitely an actually book read).

So back to Rey maybe being one of the Children of the Corn.  *If* the Children of the Corn are really Jason Bourne types, they will have "triggers" as well (probably a wide variety of them) and some aggression issues, probably especially when feeling threatened.  Think about how Rey takes down those thugs on Jakku.  Rather Jason Bourne-ish in her efficiency.  Think about how she knows just how to sneak up on Finn and get him on the ground.  Think about how she can get the Teedo to give up BB8 by just telling him off.  Think about how she shoots that first stormtrooper, gets shocked for a second, but then gets into shooting more of them.  Think about how she shoots Ren when he's bleeding.  And then of course, think how she kicks his a**, but most importantly, think about the shot Ava DuVernay suggested to JJ.  At first I thought that shot was the force connection at the cliffside, but now based on something I read (sorry I have no bookmarking organization), I believe she suggested the growling shot of Rey when she is ready to slam down the lightsaber down on Kylo.  Then we have the Darth Maul prowl which only really seems to end when the earth splits between them.

Of course, there is a big hole in this theory where Unkar Plutt and her terrible life is concerned (unless he is somehow part of the Jakku Corn Kids Project somehow), because if she was full Jason Bourne, she would have killed him a long time ago and taken over.  She is also sweet and childlike and sensitive at times, whereas Jason Bourne had to have a lot of that reawakened in him.  So this starts to go to what @snufkin has been suggesting for a while.  So maybe, for whatever reason, she was originally meant to be a full Child of the Corn ... but something interrupted her training.  She was somehow taken from it and put in the last place anyone would ever look ... (sort of like hiding Luke in plain sight on Tattooine because Vader would think twice before going there).  This person/people may have been FO and may have intended to come back for her, but maybe were killed for their stealing of a supersoldier kid before they could.  So as a result, Rey never went all the way Child of the Corn ... but she still has some of the embedded training and it comes out during times of confrontation.  She could survive Jakku, unlike other kids, because she had some level of training already.  In a tragic way, she may have been "saved" from a worse hell by being abandoned.  Had she stayed in the training program her force abilities may have come to light and *she may have become Kylo Ren* because Snoke might have considered her a better mark than Ben Solo in the long run.

And this comes back to the old thought of all three of them being stolen/manipulated/pawn-of-war children.  Finn has whatever Brendol Hux training he received and then the force woke him up.  Kylo/Ben, the ultimate Snoke target child and maybe future host body, began to wake up/feel the light when he saw Finn and spared him.  Then Kylo/Ben woke up Rey's force abilities in the interrogation.

Of course just a theory, so poke holes away, but that Children of the Corn stuff really brings up food for thought.
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Post by snufkin on Thu 16 Feb 2017, 2:50 am

@SoloSideCousin - I can see that there has to be some type of connection between her parents' disappearance and Jakku being an Area 51 type place.

But I mostly figured that she snapped on him because she'd just finally had it after a lifetime of putting up with abuse and swallowing her dignity. Fabulous hair and interesting connection notwithstanding, he does many horrible things to her during the most vulnerable point for her in the story (and her life you'd guess). So the confrontation trying to prevent her from leaving, she finally loses her s**t and goes after him. I understand all the other stuff about tapping into the DS, potential personal betrayal based on what she saw in his mind. But I've also had enough sketchy street harassment type situations as a female, that I can recognize that response in that situation (going off on some random creeper bothering you because you're already fed up w/your day and overentitled random men).

More than likely the Force Plot for both of them will be tied up not just with the backstory of what Snoke is and what he's up to in the long run, but in resolving their own respective traumas/alienation and coming of age. That's why it's always felt logical to me that not only does her Mystery Box have to do with Snoke and the FO, but will be solved in tandem with the Mystery Box that's been set up for Ben. Both as FS foils/antagonists, but as the central LIs for the ST.
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Post by panki on Thu 16 Feb 2017, 6:15 am

I cannot get over the description of
Spoiler:
Rax putting a mask with red kyber eyes on Yupe Tashu's face and pushing him into the fiery core of Jakku.....and then Yupe Tashu returns as this black shadow....this reminded me of a scene from ROTS...

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Post by SoloSideCousin on Thu 16 Feb 2017, 9:27 am

@snufkin wrote:@SoloSideCousin - I can see that there has to be some type of connection between her parents' disappearance and Jakku being an Area 51 type place.

But I mostly figured that she snapped on him because she'd just finally had it after a lifetime of putting up with abuse and swallowing her dignity. Fabulous hair and interesting connection notwithstanding, he does many horrible things to her during the most vulnerable point for her in the story (and her life you'd guess). So the confrontation trying to prevent her from leaving, she finally loses her s**t and goes after him. I understand all the other stuff about tapping into the DS, potential personal betrayal based on what she saw in his mind. But I've also had enough sketchy street harassment type situations as a female, that I can recognize that response in that situation (going off on some random creeper bothering you because you're already fed up w/your day and overentitled random men).

More than likely the Force Plot for both of them will be tied up not just with the backstory of what Snoke is and what he's up to in the long run, but in resolving their own respective traumas/alienation and coming of age. That's why it's always felt logical to me that not only does her Mystery Box have to do with Snoke and the FO, but will be solved in tandem with the Mystery Box that's been set up for Ben. Both as FS foils/antagonists, but as the central LIs for the ST.
@snufkin

Yeah everything that Rey does can be largely explained by her terrible life on Jakku and how Kylo was the final straw ... there's just something about this new information that made me wonder if there was an additional layer. Little things, like how she survived and how she was apparently wearing a warrior's outfit when she was abandoned.

@reylosaur's theory of her family being somehow part of being Snoke to power, even temporarily, is very compelling ... and all this Children of the Corn and Secrets stuff from Jakku ... would they just drop her in the middle of that and not have some of it connect to her? Maybe. I am not married to any of this. That's why I called it "my driving to Pei Wei theory." :-) But ideas like Rey's family played a role in bringing Kylo's tormenter to power and/or Rey could have been another Kylo without the intervention of someone else are very compelling and would, along with knowledge of Kylo's history, make her look at him in a whole new way ... not just in the expected pitying sense but in the truly motivating sense of "I am a part of what made him, what made all of this."
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Post by Guest on Thu 16 Feb 2017, 11:26 am

I should note that I didn't come up with the theory, someone suggested it on another site and I was so immediately awestruck that I decided to bring it here and expand on it. Laughing

On the other site, the theory didn't really catch on. It was basically ignored and the majority of the people there are still discussing Rey Skywalker/Solo theories, but now with extra hoops to jump through because of the new details from Aftermath.

I've spent the past year pretty open-minded about Rey's lineage as long as she's some form of random. I didn't want her defined by her last name, but I did want the circumstances of her being abandoned on Jakku to be relevant to everything in TFA.

This theory seems to do that and more. It brings everything together and gives Rey a reason to be in the center of it all - not fighting by her parents' side, but out there on her own trying to undo what they did. She has full agency. It will be a lonely struggle ahead for Rey.

I have to say, my mind has been blown for the past few days since I stumbled across this idea. I can't unsee it. To me, Rey will be the orphaned daughter of Imperials until it gets debunked by the likes of Pablo... lol.

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Post by Helix on Thu 16 Feb 2017, 11:34 am

If one of those good theories about Rey having Darkside/Imperial parents ends up being true, am I the only one who is going to be bitter when those same fanboys who ignored them in favor of Sky/Solo theories say "I knew it!" or act like they knew this was coming? Laughing
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