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Post by SoloSideCousin on Sun 19 Feb 2017, 10:28 pm

@FrolickingFizzgig wrote:
@Xylo Ren wrote:
@BastilaBey wrote:@frolickingfizzgig I was talking about that idea with a friend earlier too, that Finn won't have seen the humanizing aspects of Kylo that Rey has, because she's the one who has the force connection with him and spends time with him on Ahch-to. It's then a way to illustrate how much Rey's opinion of him has changed, while creating some tension between her and Finn. He could ask Rey what on earth she's doing with that 'monster' and try to lunge at him or pull a blaster, maybe Rey puts herself in front of Kylo - that sort of thing. But who knows, it's all speculation for now - got to see how TLJ goes first!
@BastilaBey

I can definitely see the blaster scenerio. Finn and Kylo in a quick draw but Rey steps in like "Boys, put the testosterone away please."
@Xylo Ren
Bastilla explained it a lot better than me, but that's exactly what I was thinking. I wonder frequently how different characters will react to Rey being in any kind of proximity with Kylo. Finn's reaction especially has remained at forefront of my mind because I feel it's so likely that he will have to have a big one, unless the three of them spend no time together at all/Rey never reunites with Finn. I have trouble not picturing a scene like that in IX, honestly.
@FrolickingFizzgig

I could see something like the @BastilaBey scenario very easily. It is a quick way to set up the new ground rules for Rey.

But that being said, even if Kylo is coming back into the light, he won't be all rainbows and sunshine. He'll be like the Dr. House of the force ... and being Han and Leia's kid, he's not the type to give out his respect that easily. Finn is going to have to do a lot more than stand up to him with his own lightsaber for Kylo Ren to lose his contempt for Finn IMO. Finn would be dead twice by Kylo's hand (once on Jakku and once on SKB ... because I think Kylo absolutely could have killed him if he wanted to) if Kylo hadn't spared him. Kylo hates him for not only his connection to Rey, but also everything Finn sent into motion after Jakku, but I think there is a huge amount of contempt in there too. Moreover, there are projection and self-loathing issues ties up with Finn, probably because he identifies with him somehow. And since IMO Kylo really is contemptuous of himself and uses the Kylo persona and arrogance to cover up his profound vulnerability, he's not going to think much of someone who reminds him of himself. It will take time and some big things happening, impressive things on Finn's part, and probably Kylo losing some self-hate for Kylo to lose some of that contempt. That's why I think if Kylo had to work with the Resistance and his mother wasn't available, he would go straight to Poe. He's actually impressed with Poe. Poe is like that "worthy adversary" and also if they develop Poe more that "Leia's surrogate son" dynamic could also be explored.

Finn and Kylo may indeed have to work together at some point, but IMO it's going to have to be a "baptism by fire" kind of experience for them to move past some of this.
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Post by MeadowofAshes on Sun 19 Feb 2017, 11:13 pm

Re: Kiss in TLJ, I'm in the "go big or go home" camp. I don't see it being a mutual declaration of love at all, but Kylo going for it in yet another moment of irrational Skywalker-Soloism is perfect. Or even, after a long stretch of alone time on that island for sexual and conflict based tension to reach a boiling point, both of them angry-kiss, then pull away. Also, the pairing of the trilogy being a pair of sword-wielders and NOT kissing while in battle would be an absolute waste. So that'll either happen while they're in conflict with each other in VIII or when they're jointly dueling the antagonist(s) of IX.

Re: Finn and Kylo duke it out, I'd actually love to see a ridiculous "no Force powers, let's settle this like men" situation and then they go to blows with both of them ending up exhausted and no clear winner to the fight. But I don't see that happening with Rey and Kylo meeting up with Finn together. I could see something like that happening if the story somehow ended up with Finn and Kylo having to work together to go after Rey, and after a long stretch together it reached a boiling point. But that's not likely to happen, IMO.

And after reviewing my last two paragraphs, I've realized there's a pattern in how I see characters relating to Kylo.  Laughing

ARCHIVE: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings - 14 - Page 3 Wonder10
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Post by jakkusun on Mon 20 Feb 2017, 12:59 am

@Darth Dementor wrote:
@Rogue Rey wrote:
@ISeeAnIsland wrote:
@motherofpearl1 wrote:Anyone here thinks they won't kiss until IX?
@motherofpearl1

I'm in the I-think-they-kiss-in-VIII camp, but I'm expecting it to be some spur of the moment thing (probably after some big adrenaline rush), and that it will surprise/confuse both of them. i.e. It's going to create more questions than it does answers.

I think it will be in VIII largely for pacing--VIII is probably going to be the big character development movie, whereas IX is going to be a lot of action with defeating Snoke, and tying various plot threads together, etc. I don't see how they can fit the entire romantic arc into one movie with a ton of other stuff going on without it feeling rushed/crammed in.

That said, it wouldn't shock me if they held off on a kiss until IX. I just think it's more likely to come towards the end of VIII.
@ISeeAnIsland

I'm with you on this.

Traditionally there are three kisses in the 2nd film - of course Rian and co could be going for the non-traditional, there's always that possibility.

But other than that kiss that should never of happened between Luke and Leia they've always been between the main couple of the trilogy - Anakin + Padme and Leia and Han (who only had 2, because of the icky Luke smooch!)

I like the idea of there being a spur of the moment kiss between Rey and Kylo in VIII due to an adrenaline rush or a life saving moment - where Rey kisses him, rather than him kissing her.  That would certainly lead to a fair few questions for Rey about her feelings and moving forward etc.

So unless Poe and Finn are finally going to kiss Wink or Finn is that enamoured with KMT's character that he just goes for it, I think a Rey/Kylo kiss could/will happen - depending on Rian of course.
@Rogue Rey

Rey grabbing and kissing Ben would fit more in the narrative of her character growth. She's been isolated and lonely her entire life and only reluctantly taking offers of friendship/companionship. Her initiating intimacy with Kylo would show that she has fully left the little girl on Jakku behind and is now a new woman in her own right.
@Darth Dementor

I'd never thought about it before but now I really like the idea of Rey initiating intimacy between them.
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Post by Rogue Rey on Mon 20 Feb 2017, 7:06 am

@Darth Dementor wrote:
@Rogue Rey wrote:
@ISeeAnIsland wrote:
@motherofpearl1 wrote:Anyone here thinks they won't kiss until IX?
@motherofpearl1

I'm in the I-think-they-kiss-in-VIII camp, but I'm expecting it to be some spur of the moment thing (probably after some big adrenaline rush), and that it will surprise/confuse both of them. i.e. It's going to create more questions than it does answers.

I think it will be in VIII largely for pacing--VIII is probably going to be the big character development movie, whereas IX is going to be a lot of action with defeating Snoke, and tying various plot threads together, etc. I don't see how they can fit the entire romantic arc into one movie with a ton of other stuff going on without it feeling rushed/crammed in.

That said, it wouldn't shock me if they held off on a kiss until IX. I just think it's more likely to come towards the end of VIII.
@ISeeAnIsland

I'm with you on this.

Traditionally there are three kisses in the 2nd film - of course Rian and co could be going for the non-traditional, there's always that possibility.

But other than that kiss that should never of happened between Luke and Leia they've always been between the main couple of the trilogy - Anakin + Padme and Leia and Han (who only had 2, because of the icky Luke smooch!)

I like the idea of there being a spur of the moment kiss between Rey and Kylo in VIII due to an adrenaline rush or a life saving moment - where Rey kisses him, rather than him kissing her.  That would certainly lead to a fair few questions for Rey about her feelings and moving forward etc.

So unless Poe and Finn are finally going to kiss Wink or Finn is that enamoured with KMT's character that he just goes for it, I think a Rey/Kylo kiss could/will happen - depending on Rian of course.
@Rogue Rey

Rey grabbing and kissing Ben would fit more in the narrative of her character growth.  She's been isolated and lonely her entire life and only reluctantly taking offers of friendship/companionship.  Her initiating intimacy with Kylo would show that she has fully left the little girl on Jakku behind and is now a new woman in her own right.
@Darth Dementor

It would also show that she is in control and command of herself if she were the initiator of any sort of intimacy.  Also I can totally see Kylo's face if she did  Lolilol  Lolilol  ROFL
It'd be this:
ARCHIVE: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings - 14 - Page 3 Tumblr_inline_o5jc42wnlt1qjtxsg_1280
crossed with this:
ARCHIVE: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings - 14 - Page 3 Star-Wars-VI-The-Return-of-the-Jedi-harrison-ford-3913284-660-272

A side thought: I always thought the theory that Rey will become a Jedi was an odd one - I understand why people say it, because she's a hero character and is Force Sensitive and can use a Lightsaber.  But Rey also, as you pointed out, quickly finds friendship/companionship after years of neither.  These are attachments and by the Jedi code isn't attachment forbidden??  So would it make sense for Rey to after finding friendship/companionship/belonging/a family after having none for so long suddenly decide to give it all up?  Nope.
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Post by reylo1992 on Mon 20 Feb 2017, 7:31 am

@jakkusun wrote:
@Darth Dementor wrote:
@Rogue Rey wrote:
@ISeeAnIsland wrote:
@motherofpearl1 wrote:Anyone here thinks they won't kiss until IX?
@motherofpearl1

I'm in the I-think-they-kiss-in-VIII camp, but I'm expecting it to be some spur of the moment thing (probably after some big adrenaline rush), and that it will surprise/confuse both of them. i.e. It's going to create more questions than it does answers.

I think it will be in VIII largely for pacing--VIII is probably going to be the big character development movie, whereas IX is going to be a lot of action with defeating Snoke, and tying various plot threads together, etc. I don't see how they can fit the entire romantic arc into one movie with a ton of other stuff going on without it feeling rushed/crammed in.

That said, it wouldn't shock me if they held off on a kiss until IX. I just think it's more likely to come towards the end of VIII.
@ISeeAnIsland

I'm with you on this.

Traditionally there are three kisses in the 2nd film - of course Rian and co could be going for the non-traditional, there's always that possibility.

But other than that kiss that should never of happened between Luke and Leia they've always been between the main couple of the trilogy - Anakin + Padme and Leia and Han (who only had 2, because of the icky Luke smooch!)

I like the idea of there being a spur of the moment kiss between Rey and Kylo in VIII due to an adrenaline rush or a life saving moment - where Rey kisses him, rather than him kissing her.  That would certainly lead to a fair few questions for Rey about her feelings and moving forward etc.

So unless Poe and Finn are finally going to kiss Wink or Finn is that enamoured with KMT's character that he just goes for it, I think a Rey/Kylo kiss could/will happen - depending on Rian of course.
@Rogue Rey

Rey grabbing and kissing Ben would fit more in the narrative of her character growth. She's been isolated and lonely her entire life and only reluctantly taking offers of friendship/companionship. Her initiating intimacy with Kylo would show that she has fully left the little girl on Jakku behind and is now a new woman in her own right.
@Darth Dementor

I'd never thought about it before but now I really like the idea of Rey initiating intimacy between them.
@jakkusun

Me too! I would love that Smile
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Post by Xylo Ren on Mon 20 Feb 2017, 7:37 am

@Rogue Rey wrote:
@Darth Dementor wrote:
@Rogue Rey wrote:
@ISeeAnIsland wrote:
@motherofpearl1 wrote:Anyone here thinks they won't kiss until IX?
@motherofpearl1

I'm in the I-think-they-kiss-in-VIII camp, but I'm expecting it to be some spur of the moment thing (probably after some big adrenaline rush), and that it will surprise/confuse both of them. i.e. It's going to create more questions than it does answers.

I think it will be in VIII largely for pacing--VIII is probably going to be the big character development movie, whereas IX is going to be a lot of action with defeating Snoke, and tying various plot threads together, etc. I don't see how they can fit the entire romantic arc into one movie with a ton of other stuff going on without it feeling rushed/crammed in.

That said, it wouldn't shock me if they held off on a kiss until IX. I just think it's more likely to come towards the end of VIII.
@ISeeAnIsland

I'm with you on this.

Traditionally there are three kisses in the 2nd film - of course Rian and co could be going for the non-traditional, there's always that possibility.

But other than that kiss that should never of happened between Luke and Leia they've always been between the main couple of the trilogy - Anakin + Padme and Leia and Han (who only had 2, because of the icky Luke smooch!)

I like the idea of there being a spur of the moment kiss between Rey and Kylo in VIII due to an adrenaline rush or a life saving moment - where Rey kisses him, rather than him kissing her.  That would certainly lead to a fair few questions for Rey about her feelings and moving forward etc.

So unless Poe and Finn are finally going to kiss Wink or Finn is that enamoured with KMT's character that he just goes for it, I think a Rey/Kylo kiss could/will happen - depending on Rian of course.
@Rogue Rey

Rey grabbing and kissing Ben would fit more in the narrative of her character growth.  She's been isolated and lonely her entire life and only reluctantly taking offers of friendship/companionship.  Her initiating intimacy with Kylo would show that she has fully left the little girl on Jakku behind and is now a new woman in her own right.
@Darth Dementor

It would also show that she is in control and command of herself if she were the initiator of any sort of intimacy.  Also I can totally see Kylo's face if she did  Lolilol  Lolilol  ROFL
It'd be this:
ARCHIVE: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings - 14 - Page 3 Tumblr_inline_o5jc42wnlt1qjtxsg_1280
@Rogue Rey

Well if he is reverse Anakin and Anakin initiated the first kiss with Padme then that could only mean...

Twisted Evil
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Post by Darth Dingbat on Mon 20 Feb 2017, 8:21 am

@Xylo Ren wrote:
@Rogue Rey wrote:
@Darth Dementor wrote:
@Rogue Rey wrote:
@ISeeAnIsland wrote:
@motherofpearl1 wrote:Anyone here thinks they won't kiss until IX?
@motherofpearl1

I'm in the I-think-they-kiss-in-VIII camp, but I'm expecting it to be some spur of the moment thing (probably after some big adrenaline rush), and that it will surprise/confuse both of them. i.e. It's going to create more questions than it does answers.

I think it will be in VIII largely for pacing--VIII is probably going to be the big character development movie, whereas IX is going to be a lot of action with defeating Snoke, and tying various plot threads together, etc. I don't see how they can fit the entire romantic arc into one movie with a ton of other stuff going on without it feeling rushed/crammed in.

That said, it wouldn't shock me if they held off on a kiss until IX. I just think it's more likely to come towards the end of VIII.
@ISeeAnIsland

I'm with you on this.

Traditionally there are three kisses in the 2nd film - of course Rian and co could be going for the non-traditional, there's always that possibility.

But other than that kiss that should never of happened between Luke and Leia they've always been between the main couple of the trilogy - Anakin + Padme and Leia and Han (who only had 2, because of the icky Luke smooch!)

I like the idea of there being a spur of the moment kiss between Rey and Kylo in VIII due to an adrenaline rush or a life saving moment - where Rey kisses him, rather than him kissing her.  That would certainly lead to a fair few questions for Rey about her feelings and moving forward etc.

So unless Poe and Finn are finally going to kiss Wink or Finn is that enamoured with KMT's character that he just goes for it, I think a Rey/Kylo kiss could/will happen - depending on Rian of course.
@Rogue Rey

Rey grabbing and kissing Ben would fit more in the narrative of her character growth.  She's been isolated and lonely her entire life and only reluctantly taking offers of friendship/companionship.  Her initiating intimacy with Kylo would show that she has fully left the little girl on Jakku behind and is now a new woman in her own right.
@Darth Dementor

It would also show that she is in control and command of herself if she were the initiator of any sort of intimacy.  Also I can totally see Kylo's face if she did  Lolilol  Lolilol  ROFL
It'd be this:
ARCHIVE: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings - 14 - Page 3 Tumblr_inline_o5jc42wnlt1qjtxsg_1280
@Rogue Rey

Well if he is reverse Anakin and Anakin initiated the first kiss with Padme then that could only mean...

Twisted Evil
@Xylo Ren

... that Rey levitates some foodstuff to Kylo? Confus
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ARCHIVE: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings - 14 - Page 3 Empty Re: ARCHIVE: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings - 14

Post by Rogue Rey on Mon 20 Feb 2017, 8:37 am

@Darth Dingbat wrote:
@Xylo Ren wrote:
@Rogue Rey wrote:
@Darth Dementor wrote:
@Rogue Rey wrote:
@ISeeAnIsland wrote:
@motherofpearl1 wrote:Anyone here thinks they won't kiss until IX?
@motherofpearl1

I'm in the I-think-they-kiss-in-VIII camp, but I'm expecting it to be some spur of the moment thing (probably after some big adrenaline rush), and that it will surprise/confuse both of them. i.e. It's going to create more questions than it does answers.

I think it will be in VIII largely for pacing--VIII is probably going to be the big character development movie, whereas IX is going to be a lot of action with defeating Snoke, and tying various plot threads together, etc. I don't see how they can fit the entire romantic arc into one movie with a ton of other stuff going on without it feeling rushed/crammed in.

That said, it wouldn't shock me if they held off on a kiss until IX. I just think it's more likely to come towards the end of VIII.
@ISeeAnIsland

I'm with you on this.

Traditionally there are three kisses in the 2nd film - of course Rian and co could be going for the non-traditional, there's always that possibility.

But other than that kiss that should never of happened between Luke and Leia they've always been between the main couple of the trilogy - Anakin + Padme and Leia and Han (who only had 2, because of the icky Luke smooch!)

I like the idea of there being a spur of the moment kiss between Rey and Kylo in VIII due to an adrenaline rush or a life saving moment - where Rey kisses him, rather than him kissing her.  That would certainly lead to a fair few questions for Rey about her feelings and moving forward etc.

So unless Poe and Finn are finally going to kiss Wink or Finn is that enamoured with KMT's character that he just goes for it, I think a Rey/Kylo kiss could/will happen - depending on Rian of course.
@Rogue Rey

Rey grabbing and kissing Ben would fit more in the narrative of her character growth.  She's been isolated and lonely her entire life and only reluctantly taking offers of friendship/companionship.  Her initiating intimacy with Kylo would show that she has fully left the little girl on Jakku behind and is now a new woman in her own right.
@Darth Dementor

It would also show that she is in control and command of herself if she were the initiator of any sort of intimacy.  Also I can totally see Kylo's face if she did  Lolilol  Lolilol  ROFL
It'd be this:
ARCHIVE: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings - 14 - Page 3 Tumblr_inline_o5jc42wnlt1qjtxsg_1280
@Rogue Rey

Well if he is reverse Anakin and Anakin initiated the first kiss with Padme then that could only mean...

Twisted Evil
@Xylo Ren

... that Rey levitates some foodstuff to Kylo? Confus
@Darth Dingbat

......that Kylo loves sand??? Very Happy Twisted Evil Twisted Evil Razz Razz
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Post by SkyStar on Mon 20 Feb 2017, 12:59 pm

@Rogue Rey wrote:
@Darth Dingbat wrote:
@Xylo Ren wrote:
@Rogue Rey wrote:
@Darth Dementor wrote:
@Rogue Rey wrote:
@ISeeAnIsland wrote:
@motherofpearl1 wrote:Anyone here thinks they won't kiss until IX?
@motherofpearl1

I'm in the I-think-they-kiss-in-VIII camp, but I'm expecting it to be some spur of the moment thing (probably after some big adrenaline rush), and that it will surprise/confuse both of them. i.e. It's going to create more questions than it does answers.

I think it will be in VIII largely for pacing--VIII is probably going to be the big character development movie, whereas IX is going to be a lot of action with defeating Snoke, and tying various plot threads together, etc. I don't see how they can fit the entire romantic arc into one movie with a ton of other stuff going on without it feeling rushed/crammed in.

That said, it wouldn't shock me if they held off on a kiss until IX. I just think it's more likely to come towards the end of VIII.
@ISeeAnIsland

I'm with you on this.

Traditionally there are three kisses in the 2nd film - of course Rian and co could be going for the non-traditional, there's always that possibility.

But other than that kiss that should never of happened between Luke and Leia they've always been between the main couple of the trilogy - Anakin + Padme and Leia and Han (who only had 2, because of the icky Luke smooch!)

I like the idea of there being a spur of the moment kiss between Rey and Kylo in VIII due to an adrenaline rush or a life saving moment - where Rey kisses him, rather than him kissing her.  That would certainly lead to a fair few questions for Rey about her feelings and moving forward etc.

So unless Poe and Finn are finally going to kiss Wink or Finn is that enamoured with KMT's character that he just goes for it, I think a Rey/Kylo kiss could/will happen - depending on Rian of course.
@Rogue Rey

Rey grabbing and kissing Ben would fit more in the narrative of her character growth.  She's been isolated and lonely her entire life and only reluctantly taking offers of friendship/companionship.  Her initiating intimacy with Kylo would show that she has fully left the little girl on Jakku behind and is now a new woman in her own right.
@Darth Dementor

It would also show that she is in control and command of herself if she were the initiator of any sort of intimacy.  Also I can totally see Kylo's face if she did  Lolilol  Lolilol  ROFL
It'd be this:
ARCHIVE: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings - 14 - Page 3 Tumblr_inline_o5jc42wnlt1qjtxsg_1280
@Rogue Rey

Well if he is reverse Anakin and Anakin initiated the first kiss with Padme then that could only mean...

Twisted Evil
@Xylo Ren

... that Rey levitates some foodstuff to Kylo? Confus
@Darth Dingbat

......that Kylo loves sand??? Very Happy Twisted Evil Twisted Evil Razz Razz
@Rogue Rey

Maybe Kylo is going to take Rey to a sexy room with fireplace in the temple . Then he is going to take of his shirt and talk about how  his feelings to Rey are wrong and how she is the enemy of FO and they can not be together.
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Post by Irina de France on Mon 20 Feb 2017, 1:05 pm

@SkyStar wrote:
@Rogue Rey wrote:
@Darth Dingbat wrote:
@Xylo Ren wrote:
@Rogue Rey wrote:
@Darth Dementor wrote:
@Rogue Rey wrote:
@ISeeAnIsland wrote:
@motherofpearl1 wrote:Anyone here thinks they won't kiss until IX?
@motherofpearl1

I'm in the I-think-they-kiss-in-VIII camp, but I'm expecting it to be some spur of the moment thing (probably after some big adrenaline rush), and that it will surprise/confuse both of them. i.e. It's going to create more questions than it does answers.

I think it will be in VIII largely for pacing--VIII is probably going to be the big character development movie, whereas IX is going to be a lot of action with defeating Snoke, and tying various plot threads together, etc. I don't see how they can fit the entire romantic arc into one movie with a ton of other stuff going on without it feeling rushed/crammed in.

That said, it wouldn't shock me if they held off on a kiss until IX. I just think it's more likely to come towards the end of VIII.
@ISeeAnIsland

I'm with you on this.

Traditionally there are three kisses in the 2nd film - of course Rian and co could be going for the non-traditional, there's always that possibility.

But other than that kiss that should never of happened between Luke and Leia they've always been between the main couple of the trilogy - Anakin + Padme and Leia and Han (who only had 2, because of the icky Luke smooch!)

I like the idea of there being a spur of the moment kiss between Rey and Kylo in VIII due to an adrenaline rush or a life saving moment - where Rey kisses him, rather than him kissing her.  That would certainly lead to a fair few questions for Rey about her feelings and moving forward etc.

So unless Poe and Finn are finally going to kiss Wink or Finn is that enamoured with KMT's character that he just goes for it, I think a Rey/Kylo kiss could/will happen - depending on Rian of course.
@Rogue Rey

Rey grabbing and kissing Ben would fit more in the narrative of her character growth.  She's been isolated and lonely her entire life and only reluctantly taking offers of friendship/companionship.  Her initiating intimacy with Kylo would show that she has fully left the little girl on Jakku behind and is now a new woman in her own right.
@Darth Dementor

It would also show that she is in control and command of herself if she were the initiator of any sort of intimacy.  Also I can totally see Kylo's face if she did  Lolilol  Lolilol  ROFL
It'd be this:
ARCHIVE: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings - 14 - Page 3 Tumblr_inline_o5jc42wnlt1qjtxsg_1280
@Rogue Rey

Well if he is reverse Anakin and Anakin initiated the first kiss with Padme then that could only mean...

Twisted Evil
@Xylo Ren

... that Rey levitates some foodstuff to Kylo? Confus
@Darth Dingbat

......that Kylo loves sand??? Very Happy Twisted Evil Twisted Evil Razz Razz
@Rogue Rey

Maybe Kylo is going to take Rey to a sexy room with fireplace in the temple . Then he is going to take of his shirt and talk about how  his feelings to Rey are wrong and how she is the enemy of FO and they can not be together.
@SkyStar

I have to say... I've watched Raiders of the Lost Ark with my family last weekend (with my dad fangasming every 5 minutes about it: it was adorable, and since he did Biblical studies at university, he just nerded out about all the biblical references, lol), and since Rian mentioned it as in inspiration for TLJ, I wonder if we'll get a scene like this:



I definitely wouldn't say know to part of TLJ being Kylo and Rey exploring old temples on Ahch-To and getting trapped, and you can build up plenty of tension... Twisted Evil
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Post by snufkin on Mon 20 Feb 2017, 2:41 pm

@Irina de France wrote:
@SkyStar wrote:
@Rogue Rey wrote:
@Darth Dingbat wrote:
@Xylo Ren wrote:
@Rogue Rey wrote:
@Darth Dementor wrote:
@Rogue Rey wrote:
@ISeeAnIsland wrote:
@motherofpearl1 wrote:Anyone here thinks they won't kiss until IX?
@motherofpearl1

I'm in the I-think-they-kiss-in-VIII camp, but I'm expecting it to be some spur of the moment thing (probably after some big adrenaline rush), and that it will surprise/confuse both of them. i.e. It's going to create more questions than it does answers.

I think it will be in VIII largely for pacing--VIII is probably going to be the big character development movie, whereas IX is going to be a lot of action with defeating Snoke, and tying various plot threads together, etc. I don't see how they can fit the entire romantic arc into one movie with a ton of other stuff going on without it feeling rushed/crammed in.

That said, it wouldn't shock me if they held off on a kiss until IX. I just think it's more likely to come towards the end of VIII.
@ISeeAnIsland

I'm with you on this.

Traditionally there are three kisses in the 2nd film - of course Rian and co could be going for the non-traditional, there's always that possibility.

But other than that kiss that should never of happened between Luke and Leia they've always been between the main couple of the trilogy - Anakin + Padme and Leia and Han (who only had 2, because of the icky Luke smooch!)

I like the idea of there being a spur of the moment kiss between Rey and Kylo in VIII due to an adrenaline rush or a life saving moment - where Rey kisses him, rather than him kissing her.  That would certainly lead to a fair few questions for Rey about her feelings and moving forward etc.

So unless Poe and Finn are finally going to kiss Wink or Finn is that enamoured with KMT's character that he just goes for it, I think a Rey/Kylo kiss could/will happen - depending on Rian of course.
@Rogue Rey

Rey grabbing and kissing Ben would fit more in the narrative of her character growth.  She's been isolated and lonely her entire life and only reluctantly taking offers of friendship/companionship.  Her initiating intimacy with Kylo would show that she has fully left the little girl on Jakku behind and is now a new woman in her own right.
@Darth Dementor

It would also show that she is in control and command of herself if she were the initiator of any sort of intimacy.  Also I can totally see Kylo's face if she did  Lolilol  Lolilol  ROFL
It'd be this:
ARCHIVE: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings - 14 - Page 3 Tumblr_inline_o5jc42wnlt1qjtxsg_1280
@Rogue Rey

Well if he is reverse Anakin and Anakin initiated the first kiss with Padme then that could only mean...

Twisted Evil
@Xylo Ren

... that Rey levitates some foodstuff to Kylo? Confus
@Darth Dingbat

......that Kylo loves sand??? Very Happy Twisted Evil Twisted Evil Razz Razz
@Rogue Rey

Maybe Kylo is going to take Rey to a sexy room with fireplace in the temple . Then he is going to take of his shirt and talk about how  his feelings to Rey are wrong and how she is the enemy of FO and they can not be together.
@SkyStar

I have to say... I've watched Raiders of the Lost Ark with my family last weekend (with my dad fangasming every 5 minutes about it: it was adorable, and since he did Biblical studies at university, he just nerded out about all the biblical references, lol), and since Rian mentioned it as in inspiration for TLJ, I wonder if we'll get a scene like this:



I definitely wouldn't say know to part of TLJ being Kylo and Rey exploring old temples on Ahch-To and getting trapped, and you can build up plenty of tension... Twisted Evil
@Irina de France

I lost interest in Star Wars around the time I hit adolesence, but I have always LOVED Raiders. Like who cares about Kylo, I'm more pissed that they made Shia Le Bouef Indy and Marian's son. And I'd die if they had Rey turn out to be like Marian, the child of relic hunters being pursued by the bad guys (the KoR have to be like the Nazis). Or scenes like these two:



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Post by Irina de France on Mon 20 Feb 2017, 2:51 pm

@snufkin I'm actually fairly certain Marion was a major inspiration for Rey. I've started re-watching TFA extensively yesterday (while taking notes lol), and I haven't finished yet, and I'll share it all with everyone when I'll be done, but I could share what I've noted about parallels between Marion and Rey (it's more or less relevant to the current topic, but hey ;P):

Sidenote: I don’t get it why people insist on Rey being all tough and rough and tomboyish and that she isn’t – or rather, cannot be girly? I mean, she has a flower and a doll in her AT-AT, and her scavenger garb is something weirdly feminine and graceful about it. She kind of reminds me of Marion in Raiders of the Lost Ark (I actually wouldn’t be surprised if Marion was one of the inspirations for Rey): Marion *can* be a bit of a damsel in distress at times that Indy has to save (though I think Rey and Kylo might be a subversion of that), but she doesn’t give an eff about table manners or heavy drinking (Rey having zero table manners when she eats her supper at her home), she’s direct and foul-mouthed (again, same with Rey), she can get in a brawl fight and hold her own (just like Rey!), but she definitely isn’t insensible to nice clothes, and honestly, I like that? It just proves that a female character can kick buts and still have a feminine side to her, and the impression I get from what people want in a Strong Female Character is not so much for her to get a good characterization, it’s more like turning her into an archetypal male character but with boobs.
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Post by reylo1992 on Mon 20 Feb 2017, 5:22 pm

Bravo! cheers

[/quote]
@reylo1992

In my opinion that's the first scene where he seems human and vulnerable (he looked like monster in his first scenes, I thought he was evil... everyone was scared of him, he killed his own horse, he's dressed all in black, there's a rumor that he has killed all wolves in the region for fun,...) Other characters say he has killed whole village but later you find out what really happened. It reminds me of Kylo and Luke's students. I can't wait to see what Rian wrote. If he's as good as the writer of this show, I'm sure everyone, even hardcore antis, will feel sorry for Kylo[/quote]
@kassadin

@reylo1992 wrote:
@vaderito wrote:
@kassadin wrote:So I was watching Scarlet heart with my friends when suddenly
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and all I could think of was this
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@kassadin

That's an amazing find! Wow! Did Scarlet Heart character have a scar that he was hiding or...?
@vaderito

Bravo! cheers


quote="kassadin"]
@reylo1992 wrote:
@vaderito

Bravo! cheers

@reylo1992

In my opinion that's the first scene where he seems human and vulnerable (he looked like monster in his first scenes, I thought he was evil... everyone was scared of him, he killed his own horse, he's dressed all in black, there's a rumor that he has killed all wolves in the region for fun,...) Other characters say he has killed whole village but later you find out what really happened. It reminds me of Kylo and Luke's students. I can't wait to see what Rian wrote. If he's as good as the writer of this show, I'm sure everyone, even hardcore antis, will feel sorry for Kylo[/quote]
@kassadin

@kassadin wrote:"]
@Irina de France wrote:Scarlet Heart Ryeo: Moon Lovers is soooooo Reylo. It's far from perfect, but it's basically Reylo in 10th century Korea. I recommend it, and you can easily find it online. Wink
@Irina de France
Yes, kissasian has it in HD. I still haven't finished the series so I don't know if she'll return his feelings, but after that rain scene, I think she will, eventually. I hope they don't make Kylo as possessive as So. "You know I can take whatever I want" was enough. And a twist to why he has killed other students would be really nice. Maybe he was just trying to survive, like So. And Rey touching his face and saying it doesn't look that bad would be perfect Smile
edit: you're right, it's far from perfect. Like that annoying kpop song when they first met! Seriously, it's supposed to take place in 10th century and they're playing kpop lol

@vaderito wrote:
@kassadin

Damn, that scar is similar in shape to Kylo's only different cheek! Wow!
@vaderito

And it only makes him hotter Smile Also, his eyes are ok



Here a post to complete the discussion about the Corean serie Moonlovers - Scarlet Heart Ryeo.

I have been watching it for a few weeks. Of course, TFA can’t have been inspired by this serie since the it was broacasted for the first time only late 2016. Like @IrinadeFrance wrote, it is not perfect but I think it’s definitely worth making some detail analysis because my feeling there is that Reylo might be closer to this romance than any of the ones we have analyzed until now. Of course, I’ll try my best not to spoil in case some people haven’t watched until the end or would like to watch it in the future Wink


Let’s begin with a summary of the plot:
The pilot begins in modern Corea with a young girl heavily depressed because of various problems that lead her to wish to travel back 1000 years ago. After rescuing a young boy from drowning, she is suddently pulled to the depth of the lake exactly when an eclipse occurs. When she is brought to the surface, she finds herself in a palace bath and realizes that she was teleported 1000 years ago according to her wish. Then, she is spotted by the (many) princes who were taking their baths there and learns that she is supposed to live at the 8th Princes’s home because she is Hae Soo, the cousin of his wife. She pretends that she can’t remember anything because she had an accident and must of course adapt herself quickly to her new life around the palace. She quickly bonds with the princes and witnesses the court intrigues. As she comes from the modern era, she has some historical knowledge that allow her to know that terrible things are gonna to happen within the royal family, which leads her to try to change the course of history.

Now, why is this serie so interesting in regard to Reylo Question

I) Symbolism set up the soulmates right from the start

1. The meaning behind Moonlovers

The term "Moonlover" probably refers to this Japanese legend talking about a old lunar matchmaker who ties soulmates with the red string of fate with this idea that people who are destined to end together shall ultimately end together. The legend tells that the old lunar matchmaker showed a boy his future wife. Upset, the boy threw a rock to the girl because he was displeased with this idea. Years later, the boy married a girl who appeared to have a scar on her eyebrow because of a rock.

This is of course still a supposition but several members have pointed out a possible reference to the red string of fate in regard to the following points:
- Rian Johnson's tweet:
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- Rey's scar Question
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- Both TFA and Moonlovers – Scarlet Heart Ryeo  open with an eclipse
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2. Wang So/Hae Soo vs Kylo Ren/ Rey

- In Asiatic culture, the first name is in second place. In Scarlet Heart, the royal family’s last name is Wang.
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==> The screenwriters made sure that the first names of the soulmates would match since it seems that Soo is basically some female version of So
- The same scheme might apply for TFA. The soulmates are already set up in the name. Kylo Ren as name was definitely inspired by the Asiatic culture. Thiy implies that Ren might be consider as a first name rather than a last name, which makes sense because:
- Kylo (outcast in Chinese) is no first name but Ren is indeed a Japanese female first name meaning love, romance and lotus (= Padme)
- In the novelization, Kylo Ren is either referred as Kylo Ren or only as Ren
==> There again, the screenwriter made sure that the name of the soulmates would match with Rey & Ren.

3. The SoSoo couple represents the physical embodiment of YinYang...
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...and at some point of the serie both wear grey robes at the same time (Ok, ok, they wear a lot of different costumes during the serie but still...):
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II. Which elements of the serie offer an interesting basis/comparison for a future Reylo romance?

1. The Beauty & the Beast scheme

a. Wang So as the Beast shares stricking similarities with Kylo Ren

- He looks like a dark warlord
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-  He was born royalty as the 4th son of King Taejo and the 2nd son of Queen Yo but isn't considered at the same level as his brothers

- He had a complicated childhood because of his relationship with his parents: As a consequence, he craves for love and recognition from his mother, who actually keep pushing him away both physically and emotionally.

- He was sent away from home: When we meet him at the beginning of the serie, he was away from the palace for 2 years because he was sent away to become the "adopted son" of one of the concubines in order to keep peace in the realm. He says himself that he was sent there as an hostage and resent his relatives for that.

- Like Kylo who is nicknamed the "Jedi Killer", Wang So is nicknamed the "dog wolf": the first time he indeed appears more like a bloodthirsty beast. Like Rey who hears about a boy killing the new generation of Jedi, Hae Soo hears about the 4th Prince:

" What do you mean? Do you really not know about the 4th Prince? You're just lucky to be alive!"

"He understands more the words of animals than humans!"

"You must avoid the 4th Prince as soon as you see him! [...] He is famous for being scary and cruel! They say he kills people very easily too..especially those who have seen the scar on his face!"


- He indeed has a scar, which is a big deal in his life. Several times, the serie shows us how this society rejects scars, i.e. the king could cancel a wedding if his bride had a scar on her face and/or her body
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- He has temper tantrums that make him look totally scary...
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- But when a certain girl enters the scheme...badaboom!
Threatening:
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Vulnerable:
ARCHIVE: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings - 14 - Page 3 Screen16
Cocky:
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Possessive:
ARCHIVE: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings - 14 - Page 3 Screen29


Even if Moon Lovers fits the general Beauty & the Beast scheme, it is more complex than the idea of the nice lady who turns a monster into a man. Prince Wang So is definitely a very complex character who ends very different than he was in the first Episode but it doesn't necessarily involves that from black he becomes white like snow. Without revealing too much, his narrative is much more complex than "bad guy becoming basically a good one thanks to the girl" because his character is the most  affected by the political drama, which allows the viewer to analyze the wide range of his qualities and defects


b. Hae Soo as Belle

As for Hae Soo, she is definitely the same kind of character than Belle and many heroines who raise interest in the male lead(s) in this kind of story
- Shiny
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- Compassionate
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- Courageous
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- Insolent
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- Kick-a**
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Another interesting point: she is indeed the heroine but she not the character who drives the plot. She is actually a complete normal girl who is sent to the past for mysterious reasons and suddently finds herself in the middle of another story than her own and related events that overwhelm her. So, this normal girl - it could have been another one - suddently enters in the scheme of this political plot within the royal family whose events shall impact forever the course of history. The question is: how does this normal girl enter in that scheme? What role is she meant to play? How important is that role for the future of the realm and for history itself. I would say that the first thing to acknowledge is that hae Soo enters that scheme because she finds in the royal family a new family since the Princes come to call her "Sister". After moments of doubts, she decides to let her past (the Has Soo from the future) behind her to focus on what the present state offers to her. Sounds familiar Question


c. Reylo: Beauty & the Beast (in reverse) Question

Now, why is it important in regard to Rey?

It is one of the most discussed and debated topic on the forum, which can be summarized with this question: will Rey remain the Beauty (Beauty & the Beast) or will she become the Beast (Beauty & the Beast in reverse) Question

In Scarlet Heart Ryeo, Hae So's narrative remains very similar to Belle until the end. Her portrayal by the singer IU is really fine but I see there the same limit as in so many female characters. She doesn't appear as so compelling as her male counterparts because she lacks this complexity that make a character so interesting to study. Her presence in the palace has some big impact on the plot but her narrative remains quite passive since she doesn't take part so actively in the political plot despite her knowledge about what the future holds. Although she tries to change the course of history, she actually endures the events more than she changes them.  

In regard to Reylo, some of us have pointed out that Rey is indeed very well-portrayed by Daisy Ridley but that her character lacks this complexity. So the question is the following:
- Is Rey meant to be Belle/Hae Soo from the beginning until the end :? :
Like @Saracene wrote a few weeks ago, this scheme works very well, which is obviously the case since so many people like Scarlet Heart - Reyo. Hae Soo is an important character because she accidentally travels back in the time which offers a chance to make things right within the royal family, bring peace to the realm and make sure that the legacy of the family won't be remembered as bloosthirsty. If this scheme applies,  Rey - whatever her lineage - would be importance in the galaxy because her role would be to help the Skywalker heir to ultimately bring balance to the Force - which was the original mission of the Chosen One - and make sure that the legacy of this Skywalker family wouldn't be forever remembered as bloodthirsty because of the fall of both Anakin Skywalker and Ben Organa Solo Skywalker. In this scenario, Rey Kenobi fits the best because after all who else can  help a Skywalker to bring balance to the Force better than a Kenobi?
- Is Rey meant to become the Beast Question
Like I repeatedly wrote, I would personally prefer that scenario in order to have something innovative and more complex than some "nice lady who helps bad guy becoming good" scheme but still I have no absolutely doubt that the screenwriters could handle very well the traditional "Beauty & the Beast" way too. And I confirm that I like Scarlet Heart - Ryeo with this "traditional" scheme through Wink  


2. A (very) slow-burning romance in the middle of love triangle(s)

The serie isn't perfect but honestly I find that both the plot and the romance were very well handled in general. It really offers a very good example of a slow-burning, tense and full of conflict passion between the two main characters. My main criticism there is about this kind of strange overromantization in some of their scenes as if the screenwriters really didn't want to be subtle there from the very beginning.

a. Episode I: Two trains colliding

Like TFA, Episode I offers a very good example of how to set up from the very beginning a future romantic dynamic between two radically different characters  through symbolism and romantic situations. The opening scene ends with an eclipse that represents the time travel. It offers a nice transition from the future with Hae Soo (1st shot)  to the past with Wang So (2nd shot)
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Then, Episode I is divided between two plots:
- 1st plot: We follow Hae Soo who meets accidentally all the Princes, except the 4th Prince. Then, she realizes that she has travelled back in the time, that she is known as Hae Soo and that she is supposed to live by the 8th Prince, Wang Wook, because she is the cousin of his wife, Lady Hae. This plot focus on how Hae Soo gets acquainted with her new life which is difficult since she comes from the future.
- 2nd plot: We follow Wang So who comes back to the palace after an absence of two years. The plot focuses on how this return is difficult in regard to his reputation and his complicated relationship with his relatives
==> Episode I constantly alternates between both plots until the two trains collide at the very end

I don't really like their encounter scene because of I findt it overromantized but still I think it is interesting in regard to the TFA encounter scene. Like I wrote in the summary, Hae Soo shows up accidentally in the palace bath and is spotted by all the Prince except of the 4th Prince. She only meets him much later in specific circumstances, which means that the screenwriter wanted to emphasize the importance of this encounter. This is also the case for Rey since she meets Kylo in a forest only in the middle of the movie. During the encounter scenes, both heroines are bridal-carried by their future soulmate:
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However, I like much more the TFA encounter scene because even if Reylo doesn't appear soo subtle once one picks up all the little details, the way J.J. Abrams still shot it very subtle, i.e,. I didn't notice at all from my first viewing the way Kylo literally invades Rey's personal space just before the stormtroopers show up. To the contrary, the screenwriters didn't make it subtle at all by sort of overromantizing the moment by:
- Showing many close-up faces
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- Focusing on the hand grasping
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- Choosing an overromantized music ==> only a personal feeling but this music disturbs me there, I suppose that I just don't like it

I understand that the encounter might have been overromantized in order to make what follows more ridiculous like the guy seems first to behave like a typical fairytale Prince but then behave like a typical dark warlord. None of the two protagonists  reveals his identity to the other and Hae Soo learns who he is from a third party: "You don't know the 4th Prince? You're lucky to be alive!".

In any case, this encounter scene completely fits the way J.J. Abrams describes Rey & Ren encounter with this idea of two trains colliding and two disparate pieces coming together. Their interaction are indeed tense with So who first behaves like a haughty dark warlord and Soo who is the only person daring to challenge him. Sounds familiar Question
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b. The slow-burning romance in the middle of a love triangle
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Don't worry! I am gonna spoil about the whole thing but I think it's worth analyzing how the screenwriters chose to handle the romantic aspect. We've seen that they made sure to emphasize the importance of So & Soo's relationship right from the beginning.

However, they made Hae So develop feelings for the 8th Prince who completely fits the archetype of the fairytale Prince even if his character also appears more complex than this: he is handsome, well-mannered, smart, refined (reads a lot, writes poem, etc...), calm and an accomplished warrior. He is always  very caring with his wife, Hae Soo and all his beloved ones in general. The way he treats Hae Soo is quite similar with the way Finn treats Rey and the love triangle is close to what could have been a love triangle between Rey, Finn & Kylo. In the novelization, it is written that Rey is hurt by Finn's decision to leave and asks herself why she cares so much about it. Rey's feelings toward Finn are also spotted by Kylo who literally tells : "Hmm you've met the traitor who worked for me and you've begun to care for him!". Since it seems that Finn is gonna get another love interest, it shall solve this possible love triangle.

However, the love triangle in Moon lovers offers a good example of how the screenwriters make the girl fall for a different man than the one who is supposed to take the most important place in her life. It's not only a little crush like Rey had for Finn but a real mutual love interest that both Hae Soo and Wang Wook develop  for one another. Her feelings for Wang So are actually much more ambiguous so that it's hard to tell where love begins and everything is made more complicated by the political context itself. There is always some tension because of this conflict between both love interests and because of this delicate balance between love & political interest. This is a love story that is fulll of barriers, conflict and very long separations. Through, the two of them appears as soumates, two halves of a same whole who sustain each other  in the most difficult moments.


c. A huge misunderstandnis at the basis of the political plot

Once again, I am not gonna spoil the plot but Hae Soo finds herself in the middle of political intrigues within the royal family. Like Rey, she gets furtive visions about the future in addition to her personal historical knowledges. She knows that important things are gonna to happen but nobody tells her clearly for what purpose she was sent to the past and what role she is supposed to fill. This is something that she must define all by herself. One of the important issue is how to handle future events: is it right to intervene to stop them and/or change the course of history? Can/Should the course of history be changed anyway? This is important in regard to the ST because there is this idea that the story repeats itself: if nothing is changes, Kylo Ren is gonna follow his grandfather's steps until he becomes a villainious creature consumed by the DS, physically disfugured and remembered as a sanguinary warlord. So the question is the following: the Skywalker family failed to protect Ben from this fate perhaps because he was destined to fall like his grandfather. How could the "curse"/fate/destiney could be changed?  Can it be changed anyway? I guess that Rey could face these questions at some point of the triilogy.

Another interesting point: Hae Soo has indeed visions of the future but these visions are actually misleading. They only deliver a small part of the truth and leads the heroine to interpret the future in some specific way. Like Yoda said in ROTS, one must be careful with the interpretation of  visions and like Obi-Wan said in ROTJ, the story can be told from a certain point of view. This aspect is very important in Moon Lovers because it appears that the visions ain't false but the way it ultimately happens completely changes the original interpretation of the events. So this is even more important in regard to the ST because until now this is all what both Rey & the audience (believe to) know regarding Kylo Ren:

- "A boy, an apprentice, turned against [Luke Skywalker] and destroyed all"

- Kylo Ren kills his father Han Solo

This is actually the objective dscription of these actions that are unquestionably crimes. That's why, it is absolutely understandable that both Rey and the audience would despise Kylo Ren for what he did and consider him only as cold murderer. However, the visions & the information that both Rey and the audience get in TFA represent the visible - which means the smallest - part of the iceberg. The screenwriters voluntarily kept both the heroine and us as the audience in the dark regarding the context surrounding these crimes so that the submerged part of the iceberg should be revealed only in TLJ and change completely her and our perception of things. Objectively, Kylo might have destroyed Luke's academy and killed his fellow Padawans but beyond that: what is the context behind this?



III. What it brings for the analysis of the ST

As a conclusion, I would say Moon Lovers offers in general a good example of a drama that cleverly:
- keep in suspense about the political plot
- set up a slow burning romance
- develop interesting relationships and interactions between characters
- displays a wide range of (intense) emotions : friendship, love, hate, anger, conflict, sadness, desperation, loss, etc...
- achieves some delicate balance between ingenuousness and gravity
So, I had the impression while watching this that there is always something going on. Even when you tihnk that things are gonna to appease, intrigues start all over again. You get this sensation of a constant battle in every single aspect of the serie until a point where it even becomes tiring at the end.

What I deduct from this serie in regard to the ST are the following elements (only a personal feeling):
1. The screenwriters must make sure that the Reylo romance remains compelling until the end: IMO, this requires that no romance between them should be set up between them at the end of the Episode 8. We should get the confirmation that Rey ain't a Skywalker and that her relationship with Kylo is gonna be a romantic connection. However, no mutual romance shouldn't happen in Episode 8 for the following reason: a relationship becomes much less compelling after both character have recognized mutual feelings for one another. Or if this happens, TLJ shall at least end with something big preventing them to end together. So, we need to have a major evolution in their relationship in TLJ  but not to a point that struggle between them would be over.
2 I used to write once that the two of them shall share more and more screentime together in each film. Honestly, I think that I was wrong to think that because if their romance is supposed to be slow-burning one, it requires that the two of them don't spend so much time together. It is quite safe to assume that they shall spend much time together in TLJ because their relationship need to take a decisive step forward an they have a lot of issues to solve regarding that. However, I completely expect them to spend much time apart in Episode 9 and experience a long separation. I can't imagine them ending TLJ together, I mean by this in the same place. I can't imagine them leaving everything behind them together. Like in TFA, they shall end TLJ separated and this shall happen after some dramatic cliffhanger. So far, we know that:
- Rey will be physically and/or emotionally hurt
- Kylo will live but it depends what's our idea of living is
Crossingg these information, I completely expect TLJ to end dramatically in the same vein as ROTS

So once again, we come back to this recurrent discussion about what's gonna to happen. As for me, I see only two opposite possibilities - excluding the possibility that Kylo would become darker and confirm even more his allegiance to Snoke:
- Scenario 1: Rey falls to the Dark Side (=Beauty & the Beast in reverse) ==> They could have her ending captured by Snoke/F.O./Unkar Plutt but honestly I don't see that happening with a scenario where they should rescue her a like in TFA or like Leia rescued Han in ROTJ.
- Scenario 2: Snoke finally gets what he wanted to achieve with Ben for years although Ben genuinely wanted to change side ( =Beauty & the Beast) ==> This is the kind of scenario where Ben could end in some near-death state and/or bonded with Snoke forever or whatever what prevent him to change side. In this scheme, Rey would definitely plays the role of the savior, refusing to abandon Ben to his fate the same way Elliott refuses to abandon E.T., Milo refuses to abandon Kida, etc...

So it depends very much of what the screenwriters intend to do with Rey's character journey. Like I wrote repeatedly, I would love to see something different than the traditional Beauty & the Beast scheme because the way Rey is portrayed in TFA would allow it. However, I was always ok with Beauty & the Beast, Scarlet Heart- Ryeo and all stories that use the traditional scheme as long as the story is well handled.


Last edited by reylo1992 on Mon 20 Feb 2017, 6:21 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Post by Maria Antonietta on Mon 20 Feb 2017, 6:00 pm

@reylo1992 Fantastic job! cheers Claps Thumbs up
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Post by snufkin on Mon 20 Feb 2017, 6:09 pm

@Irina de France wrote:@snufkin I'm actually fairly certain Marion was a major inspiration for Rey. I've started re-watching TFA extensively yesterday (while taking notes lol), and I haven't finished yet, and I'll share it all with everyone when I'll be done, but I could share what I've noted about parallels between Marion and Rey (it's more or less relevant to the current topic, but hey ;P):

Sidenote: I don’t get it why people insist on Rey being all tough and rough and tomboyish and that she isn’t – or rather, cannot be girly? I mean, she has a flower and a doll in her AT-AT, and her scavenger garb is something weirdly feminine and graceful about it. She kind of reminds me of Marion in Raiders of the Lost Ark (I actually wouldn’t be surprised if Marion was one of the inspirations for Rey): Marion *can* be a bit of a damsel in distress at times that Indy has to save (though I think Rey and Kylo might be a subversion of that), but she doesn’t give an eff about table manners or heavy drinking (Rey having zero table manners when she eats her supper at her home), she’s direct and foul-mouthed (again, same with Rey), she can get in a brawl fight and hold her own (just like Rey!), but she definitely isn’t insensible to nice clothes, and honestly, I like that? It just proves that a female character can kick buts and still have a feminine side to her, and the impression I get from what people want in a Strong Female Character is not so much for her to get a good characterization, it’s more like turning her into an archetypal male character but with boobs.

@Irina de France

Oh I think there's part of Marian in Rey's backstory. I've quoted it a couple times before, but there's an interview with Lawrence Kasdan where he mentions being disappointed that the reunion scene between Marian and Indy got taken out of the final cut. Because the full story for her is that she got dragged around the globe while her father chased after relics and then was stuck in the small, dangerous mountain town in the Himalayas after he was killed in an avalanche. Which forces her to toughen up quickly, being young and female in that environment. She's not living there by choice but because they were always living hand to mouth and she's too poor to get out of there. Just trying to survive and eventually get out of there for a better life. But the story converges on her with both Indy and the Bad Guys showing up because her father unwittingly entrusted her with the critical piece of the puzzle. Although I think with the map and Luke both being the McGuffin, it's not that Rey's parents left her with an actual physical object that's key to solving the mystery. It's Rey herself who will solve the puzzle her parents were likely trying to solve and were murdered as a result. The part with Kasdan - he's one of the old timers whose participation in TFA and the ST has been to do things the way they wanted to in the past, but were overruled by GL. So if he got to finally have the original trio turn out the way he wanted for RotJ, then all of the Raiders comments made by the filmmakers make you wonder if he also got to fix that part with Rey.

And you're right about how she's better than the usual Strong Female Character nonsense. Hell, Marian is too. In the hands of most filmmakers, they'd be Lara Croft. The last Indy movie wasn't great, but it's still better than the other sequels there because Marian is back. Like Han and Leia, they're straight out of the great Golden Age of Hollywood characters where the women are allowed to be as complicated, smart, and on equal footing with the men. Also what you hope happens with Rey is that she gets to be the Indy herself with her years of scavenging experience.
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Post by reylo1992 on Mon 20 Feb 2017, 6:17 pm

@Maria Antonietta wrote:@reylo1992 Fantastic job! cheers Claps Thumbs up
@Maria Antonietta

Thanks Smile
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Post by MeadowofAshes on Mon 20 Feb 2017, 6:34 pm

@Rogue Rey wrote:
@Darth Dingbat wrote:
@Xylo Ren wrote:
@Rogue Rey wrote:
@Darth Dementor wrote:
@Rogue Rey wrote:
@ISeeAnIsland wrote:
@motherofpearl1 wrote:Anyone here thinks they won't kiss until IX?
@motherofpearl1

I'm in the I-think-they-kiss-in-VIII camp, but I'm expecting it to be some spur of the moment thing (probably after some big adrenaline rush), and that it will surprise/confuse both of them. i.e. It's going to create more questions than it does answers.

I think it will be in VIII largely for pacing--VIII is probably going to be the big character development movie, whereas IX is going to be a lot of action with defeating Snoke, and tying various plot threads together, etc. I don't see how they can fit the entire romantic arc into one movie with a ton of other stuff going on without it feeling rushed/crammed in.

That said, it wouldn't shock me if they held off on a kiss until IX. I just think it's more likely to come towards the end of VIII.
@ISeeAnIsland

I'm with you on this.

Traditionally there are three kisses in the 2nd film - of course Rian and co could be going for the non-traditional, there's always that possibility.

But other than that kiss that should never of happened between Luke and Leia they've always been between the main couple of the trilogy - Anakin + Padme and Leia and Han (who only had 2, because of the icky Luke smooch!)

I like the idea of there being a spur of the moment kiss between Rey and Kylo in VIII due to an adrenaline rush or a life saving moment - where Rey kisses him, rather than him kissing her.  That would certainly lead to a fair few questions for Rey about her feelings and moving forward etc.

So unless Poe and Finn are finally going to kiss Wink or Finn is that enamoured with KMT's character that he just goes for it, I think a Rey/Kylo kiss could/will happen - depending on Rian of course.
@Rogue Rey

Rey grabbing and kissing Ben would fit more in the narrative of her character growth.  She's been isolated and lonely her entire life and only reluctantly taking offers of friendship/companionship.  Her initiating intimacy with Kylo would show that she has fully left the little girl on Jakku behind and is now a new woman in her own right.
@Darth Dementor

It would also show that she is in control and command of herself if she were the initiator of any sort of intimacy.  Also I can totally see Kylo's face if she did  Lolilol  Lolilol  ROFL
It'd be this:
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@Rogue Rey

Well if he is reverse Anakin and Anakin initiated the first kiss with Padme then that could only mean...

Twisted Evil
@Xylo Ren

... that Rey levitates some foodstuff to Kylo? Confus
@Darth Dingbat

......that Kylo loves sand??? Very Happy Twisted Evil Twisted Evil Razz Razz
@Rogue Rey

Anakin's Force ghost better warn them it gets everywhere!
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Post by Pyro Nebula on Mon 20 Feb 2017, 8:15 pm

@reylo1992 wrote:Bravo! cheers

@reylo1992

In my opinion that's the first scene where he seems human and vulnerable (he looked like monster in his first scenes, I thought he was evil... everyone was scared of him, he killed his own horse, he's dressed all in black, there's a rumor that he has killed all wolves in the region for fun,...) Other characters say he has killed whole village but later you find out what really happened. It reminds me of Kylo and Luke's students. I can't wait to see what Rian wrote. If he's as good as the writer of this show, I'm sure everyone, even hardcore antis, will feel sorry for Kylo[/quote]
@kassadin

@reylo1992 wrote:
@vaderito wrote:
@kassadin wrote:So I was watching Scarlet heart with my friends when suddenly
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and all I could think of was this
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@kassadin

That's an amazing find! Wow! Did Scarlet Heart character have a scar that he was hiding or...?
@vaderito

Bravo! cheers


quote="kassadin"]
@reylo1992 wrote:
@vaderito

Bravo! cheers

@reylo1992

In my opinion that's the first scene where he seems human and vulnerable (he looked like monster in his first scenes, I thought he was evil... everyone was scared of him, he killed his own horse, he's dressed all in black, there's a rumor that he has killed all wolves in the region for fun,...) Other characters say he has killed whole village but later you find out what really happened. It reminds me of Kylo and Luke's students. I can't wait to see what Rian wrote. If he's as good as the writer of this show, I'm sure everyone, even hardcore antis, will feel sorry for Kylo[/quote]
@kassadin

@kassadin wrote:"]
@Irina de France wrote:Scarlet Heart Ryeo: Moon Lovers is soooooo Reylo. It's far from perfect, but it's basically Reylo in 10th century Korea. I recommend it, and you can easily find it online. Wink
@Irina de France
Yes, kissasian has it in HD. I still haven't finished the series so I don't know if she'll return his feelings, but after that rain scene, I think she will, eventually. I hope they don't make Kylo as possessive as So. "You know I can take whatever I want" was enough. And a twist to why he has killed other students would be really nice. Maybe he was just trying to survive, like So. And Rey touching his face and saying it doesn't look that bad would be perfect Smile
edit: you're right, it's far from perfect. Like that annoying kpop song when they first met! Seriously, it's supposed to take place in 10th century and they're playing kpop lol

@vaderito wrote:
@kassadin

Damn, that scar is similar in shape to Kylo's only different cheek! Wow!
@vaderito

And it only makes him hotter Smile Also, his eyes are ok



Here a post to complete the discussion about the Corean serie Moonlovers - Scarlet Heart Ryeo.

I have been watching it for a few weeks. Of course, TFA can’t have been inspired by this serie since the it was broacasted for the first time only late 2016. Like @IrinadeFrance wrote, it is not perfect but I think it’s definitely worth making some detail analysis because my feeling there is that Reylo might be closer to this romance than any of the ones we have analyzed until now. Of course, I’ll try my best not to spoil in case some people haven’t watched until the end or would like to watch it in the future Wink


Let’s begin with a summary of the plot:
The pilot begins in modern Corea with a young girl heavily depressed because of various problems that lead her to wish to travel back 1000 years ago. After rescuing a young boy from drowning, she is suddently pulled to the depth of the lake exactly when an eclipse occurs. When she is brought to the surface, she finds herself in a palace bath and realizes that she was teleported 1000 years ago according to her wish. Then, she is spotted by the (many) princes who were taking their baths there and learns that she is supposed to live at the 8th Princes’s home because she is Hae Soo, the cousin of his wife. She pretends that she can’t remember anything because she had an accident and must of course adapt herself quickly to her new life around the palace. She quickly bonds with the princes and witnesses the court intrigues. As she comes from the modern era, she has some historical knowledge that allow her to know that terrible things are gonna to happen within the royal family, which leads her to try to change the course of history.

Now, why is this serie so interesting in regard to Reylo Question

I) Symbolism set up the soulmates right from the start

1. The meaning behind Moonlovers

The term "Moonlover" probably refers to this Japanese legend talking about a old lunar matchmaker who ties soulmates with the red string of fate with this idea that people who are destined to end together shall ultimately end together. The legend tells that the old lunar matchmaker showed a boy his future wife. Upset, the boy threw a rock to the girl because he was displeased with this idea. Years later, the boy married a girl who appeared to have a scar on her eyebrow because of a rock.

This is of course still a supposition but several members have pointed out a possible reference to the red string of fate in regard to the following points:
- Rian Johnson's tweet:
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- Rey's scar Question
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- Both TFA and Moonlovers – Scarlet Heart Ryeo  open with an eclipse
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2. Wang So/Hae Soo vs Kylo Ren/ Rey

- In Asiatic culture, the first name is in second place. In Scarlet Heart, the royal family’s last name is Wang.
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==> The screenwriters made sure that the first names of the soulmates would match since it seems that Soo is basically some female version of So
- The same scheme might apply for TFA. The soulmates are already set up in the name. Kylo Ren as name was definitely inspired by the Asiatic culture. Thiy implies that Ren might be consider as a first name rather than a last name, which makes sense because:
- Kylo (outcast in Chinese) is no first name but Ren is indeed a Japanese female first name meaning love, romance and lotus (= Padme)
- In the novelization, Kylo Ren is either referred as Kylo Ren or only as Ren
==> There again, the screenwriter made sure that the name of the soulmates would match with Rey & Ren.

3. The SoSoo couple represents the physical embodiment of YinYang...
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...and at some point of the serie both wear grey robes at the same time (Ok, ok, they wear a lot of different costumes during the serie but still...):
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II. Which elements of the serie offer an interesting basis/comparison for a future Reylo romance?

1. The Beauty & the Beast scheme

a. Wang So as the Beast shares stricking similarities with Kylo Ren

- He looks like a dark warlord
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-  He was born royalty as the 4th son of King Taejo and the 2nd son of Queen Yo but isn't considered at the same level as his brothers

- He had a complicated childhood because of his relationship with his parents: As a consequence, he craves for love and recognition from his mother, who actually keep pushing him away both physically and emotionally.

- He was sent away from home: When we meet him at the beginning of the serie, he was away from the palace for 2 years because he was sent away to become the "adopted son" of one of the concubines in order to keep peace in the realm. He says himself that he was sent there as an hostage and resent his relatives for that.

- Like Kylo who is nicknamed the "Jedi Killer", Wang So is nicknamed the "dog wolf": the first time he indeed appears more like a bloodthirsty beast. Like Rey who hears about a boy killing the new generation of Jedi, Hae Soo hears about the 4th Prince:

" What do you mean? Do you really not know about the 4th Prince? You're just lucky to be alive!"

"He understands more the words of animals than humans!"

"You must avoid the 4th Prince as soon as you see him! [...] He is famous for being scary and cruel! They say he kills people very easily too..especially those who have seen the scar on his face!"


- He indeed has a scar, which is a big deal in his life. Several times, the serie shows us how this society rejects scars, i.e. the king could cancel a wedding if his bride had a scar on her face and/or her body
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- He has temper tantrums that make him look totally scary...
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- But when a certain girl enters the scheme...badaboom!
Threatening:
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Vulnerable:
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Cocky:
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Possessive:
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Even if Moon Lovers fits the general Beauty & the Beast scheme, it is more complex than the idea of the nice lady who turns a monster into a man. Prince Wang So is definitely a very complex character who ends very different than he was in the first Episode but it doesn't necessarily involves that from black he becomes white like snow. Without revealing too much, his narrative is much more complex than "bad guy becoming basically a good one thanks to the girl" because his character is the most  affected by the political drama, which allows the viewer to analyze the wide range of his qualities and defects


b. Hae Soo as Belle

As for Hae Soo, she is definitely the same kind of character than Belle and many heroines who raise interest in the male lead(s) in this kind of story
- Shiny
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- Compassionate
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- Courageous
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- Insolent
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- Kick-a**
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Another interesting point: she is indeed the heroine but she not the character who drives the plot. She is actually a complete normal girl who is sent to the past for mysterious reasons and suddently finds herself in the middle of another story than her own and related events that overwhelm her. So, this normal girl - it could have been another one - suddently enters in the scheme of this political plot within the royal family whose events shall impact forever the course of history. The question is: how does this normal girl enter in that scheme? What role is she meant to play? How important is that role for the future of the realm and for history itself. I would say that the first thing to acknowledge is that hae Soo enters that scheme because she finds in the royal family a new family since the Princes come to call her "Sister". After moments of doubts, she decides to let her past (the Has Soo from the future) behind her to focus on what the present state offers to her. Sounds familiar Question


c. Reylo: Beauty & the Beast (in reverse) Question

Now, why is it important in regard to Rey?

It is one of the most discussed and debated topic on the forum, which can be summarized with this question: will Rey remain the Beauty (Beauty & the Beast) or will she become the Beast (Beauty & the Beast in reverse) Question

In Scarlet Heart Ryeo, Hae So's narrative remains very similar to Belle until the end. Her portrayal by the singer IU is really fine but I see there the same limit as in so many female characters. She doesn't appear as so compelling as her male counterparts because she lacks this complexity that make a character so interesting to study. Her presence in the palace has some big impact on the plot but her narrative remains quite passive since she doesn't take part so actively in the political plot despite her knowledge about what the future holds. Although she tries to change the course of history, she actually endures the events more than she changes them.  

In regard to Reylo, some of us have pointed out that Rey is indeed very well-portrayed by Daisy Ridley but that her character lacks this complexity. So the question is the following:
- Is Rey meant to be Belle/Hae Soo from the beginning until the end :? :
Like @Saracene wrote a few weeks ago, this scheme works very well, which is obviously the case since so many people like Scarlet Heart - Reyo. Hae Soo is an important character because she accidentally travels back in the time which offers a chance to make things right within the royal family, bring peace to the realm and make sure that the legacy of the family won't be remembered as bloosthirsty. If this scheme applies,  Rey - whatever her lineage - would be importance in the galaxy because her role would be to help the Skywalker heir to ultimately bring balance to the Force - which was the original mission of the Chosen One - and make sure that the legacy of this Skywalker family wouldn't be forever remembered as bloodthirsty because of the fall of both Anakin Skywalker and Ben Organa Solo Skywalker. In this scenario, Rey Kenobi fits the best because after all who else can  help a Skywalker to bring balance to the Force better than a Kenobi?
- Is Rey meant to become the Beast Question
Like I repeatedly wrote, I would personally prefer that scenario in order to have something innovative and more complex than some "nice lady who helps bad guy becoming good" scheme but still I have no absolutely doubt that the screenwriters could handle very well the traditional "Beauty & the Beast" way too. And I confirm that I like Scarlet Heart - Ryeo with this "traditional" scheme through Wink  


2. A (very) slow-burning romance in the middle of love triangle(s)

The serie isn't perfect but honestly I find that both the plot and the romance were very well handled in general. It really offers a very good example of a slow-burning, tense and full of conflict passion between the two main characters. My main criticism there is about this kind of strange overromantization in some of their scenes as if the screenwriters really didn't want to be subtle there from the very beginning.

a. Episode I: Two trains colliding

Like TFA, Episode I offers a very good example of how to set up from the very beginning a future romantic dynamic between two radically different characters  through symbolism and romantic situations. The opening scene ends with an eclipse that represents the time travel. It offers a nice transition from the future with Hae Soo (1st shot)  to the past with Wang So (2nd shot)
ARCHIVE: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings - 14 - Page 3 Screen25

Then, Episode I is divided between two plots:
- 1st plot: We follow Hae Soo who meets accidentally all the Princes, except the 4th Prince. Then, she realizes that she has travelled back in the time, that she is known as Hae Soo and that she is supposed to live by the 8th Prince, Wang Wook, because she is the cousin of his wife, Lady Hae. This plot focus on how Hae Soo gets acquainted with her new life which is difficult since she comes from the future.
- 2nd plot: We follow Wang So who comes back to the palace after an absence of two years. The plot focuses on how this return is difficult in regard to his reputation and his complicated relationship with his relatives
==> Episode I constantly alternates between both plots until the two trains collide at the very end

I don't really like their encounter scene because of I findt it overromantized but still I think it is interesting in regard to the TFA encounter scene. Like I wrote in the summary, Hae Soo shows up accidentally in the palace bath and is spotted by all the Prince except of the 4th Prince. She only meets him much later in specific circumstances, which means that the screenwriter wanted to emphasize the importance of this encounter. This is also the case for Rey since she meets Kylo in a forest only in the middle of the movie. During the encounter scenes, both heroines are bridal-carried by their future soulmate:
ARCHIVE: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings - 14 - Page 3 Screen11

However, I like much more the TFA encounter scene because even if Reylo doesn't appear soo subtle once one picks up all the little details, the way J.J. Abrams still shot it very subtle, i.e,. I didn't notice at all from my first viewing the way Kylo literally invades Rey's personal space just before the stormtroopers show up. To the contrary, the screenwriters didn't make it subtle at all by sort of overromantizing the moment by:
- Showing many close-up faces
ARCHIVE: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings - 14 - Page 3 Screen15
- Focusing on the hand grasping
ARCHIVE: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings - 14 - Page 3 Screen13
- Choosing an overromantized music ==> only a personal feeling but this music disturbs me there, I suppose that I just don't like it

I understand that the encounter might have been overromantized in order to make what follows more ridiculous like the guy seems first to behave like a typical fairytale Prince but then behave like a typical dark warlord. None of the two protagonists  reveals his identity to the other and Hae Soo learns who he is from a third party: "You don't know the 4th Prince? You're lucky to be alive!".

In any case, this encounter scene completely fits the way J.J. Abrams describes Rey & Ren encounter with this idea of two trains colliding and two disparate pieces coming together. Their interaction are indeed tense with So who first behaves like a haughty dark warlord and Soo who is the only person daring to challenge him. Sounds familiar Question
ARCHIVE: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings - 14 - Page 3 Screen14


b. The slow-burning romance in the middle of a love triangle
ARCHIVE: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings - 14 - Page 3 22903110

Don't worry! I am gonna spoil about the whole thing but I think it's worth analyzing how the screenwriters chose to handle the romantic aspect. We've seen that they made sure to emphasize the importance of So & Soo's relationship right from the beginning.

However, they made Hae So develop feelings for the 8th Prince who completely fits the archetype of the fairytale Prince even if his character also appears more complex than this: he is handsome, well-mannered, smart, refined (reads a lot, writes poem, etc...), calm and an accomplished warrior. He is always  very caring with his wife, Hae Soo and all his beloved ones in general. The way he treats Hae Soo is quite similar with the way Finn treats Rey and the love triangle is close to what could have been a love triangle between Rey, Finn & Kylo. In the novelization, it is written that Rey is hurt by Finn's decision to leave and asks herself why she cares so much about it. Rey's feelings toward Finn are also spotted by Kylo who literally tells : "Hmm you've met the traitor who worked for me and you've begun to care for him!". Since it seems that Finn is gonna get another love interest, it shall solve this possible love triangle.

However, the love triangle in Moon lovers offers a good example of how the screenwriters make the girl fall for a different man than the one who is supposed to take the most important place in her life. It's not only a little crush like Rey had for Finn but a real mutual love interest that both Hae Soo and Wang Wook develop  for one another. Her feelings for Wang So are actually much more ambiguous so that it's hard to tell where love begins and everything is made more complicated by the political context itself. There is always some tension because of this conflict between both love interests and because of this delicate balance between love & political interest. This is a love story that is fulll of barriers, conflict and very long separations. Through, the two of them appears as soumates, two halves of a same whole who sustain each other  in the most difficult moments.


c. A huge misunderstandnis at the basis of the political plot

Once again, I am not gonna spoil the plot but Hae Soo finds herself in the middle of political intrigues within the royal family. Like Rey, she gets furtive visions about the future in addition to her personal historical knowledges. She knows that important things are gonna to happen but nobody tells her clearly for what purpose she was sent to the past and what role she is supposed to fill. This is something that she must define all by herself. One of the important issue is how to handle future events: is it right to intervene to stop them and/or change the course of history? Can/Should the course of history be changed anyway? This is important in regard to the ST because there is this idea that the story repeats itself: if nothing is changes, Kylo Ren is gonna follow his grandfather's steps until he becomes a villainious creature consumed by the DS, physically disfugured and remembered as a sanguinary warlord. So the question is the following: the Skywalker family failed to protect Ben from this fate perhaps because he was destined to fall like his grandfather. How could the "curse"/fate/destiney could be changed?  Can it be changed anyway? I guess that Rey could face these questions at some point of the triilogy.

Another interesting point: Hae Soo has indeed visions of the future but these visions are actually misleading. They only deliver a small part of the truth and leads the heroine to interpret the future in some specific way. Like Yoda said in ROTS, one must be careful with the interpretation of  visions and like Obi-Wan said in ROTJ, the story can be told from a certain point of view. This aspect is very important in Moon Lovers because it appears that the visions ain't false but the way it ultimately happens completely changes the original interpretation of the events. So this is even more important in regard to the ST because until now this is all what both Rey & the audience (believe to) know regarding Kylo Ren:

- "A boy, an apprentice, turned against [Luke Skywalker] and destroyed all"

- Kylo Ren kills his father Han Solo

This is actually the objective dscription of these actions that are unquestionably crimes. That's why, it is absolutely understandable that both Rey and the audience would despise Kylo Ren for what he did and consider him only as cold murderer. However, the visions & the information that both Rey and the audience get in TFA represent the visible - which means the smallest - part of the iceberg. The screenwriters voluntarily kept both the heroine and us as the audience in the dark regarding the context surrounding these crimes so that the submerged part of the iceberg should be revealed only in TLJ and change completely her and our perception of things. Objectively, Kylo might have destroyed Luke's academy and killed his fellow Padawans but beyond that: what is the context behind this?



III. What it brings for the analysis of the ST

As a conclusion, I would say Moon Lovers offers in general a good example of a drama that cleverly:
- keep in suspense about the political plot
- set up a slow burning romance
- develop interesting relationships and interactions between characters
- displays a wide range of (intense) emotions : friendship, love, hate, anger, conflict, sadness, desperation, loss, etc...
- achieves some delicate balance between ingenuousness and gravity
So, I had the impression while watching this that there is always something going on. Even when you tihnk that things are gonna to appease, intrigues start all over again. You get this sensation of a constant battle in every single aspect of the serie until a point where it even becomes tiring at the end.

What I deduct from this serie in regard to the ST are the following elements (only a personal feeling):
1. The screenwriters must make sure that the Reylo romance remains compelling until the end: IMO, this requires that no romance between them should be set up between them at the end of the Episode 8. We should get the confirmation that Rey ain't a Skywalker and that her relationship with Kylo is gonna be a romantic connection. However, no mutual romance shouldn't happen in Episode 8 for the following reason: a relationship becomes much less compelling after both character have recognized mutual feelings for one another. Or if this happens, TLJ shall at least end with something big preventing them to end together. So, we need to have a major evolution in their relationship in TLJ  but not to a point that struggle between them would be over.
2 I used to write once that the two of them shall share more and more screentime together in each film. Honestly, I think that I was wrong to think that because if their romance is supposed to be slow-burning one, it requires that the two of them don't spend so much time together. It is quite safe to assume that they shall spend much time together in TLJ because their relationship need to take a decisive step forward an they have a lot of issues to solve regarding that. However, I completely expect them to spend much time apart in Episode 9 and experience a long separation. I can't imagine them ending TLJ together, I mean by this in the same place. I can't imagine them leaving everything behind them together. Like in TFA, they shall end TLJ separated and this shall happen after some dramatic cliffhanger. So far, we know that:
- Rey will be physically and/or emotionally hurt
- Kylo will live but it depends what's our idea of living is
Crossingg these information, I completely expect TLJ to end dramatically in the same vein as ROTS

So once again, we come back to this recurrent discussion about what's gonna to happen. As for me, I see only two opposite possibilities - excluding the possibility that Kylo would become darker and confirm even more his allegiance to Snoke:
- Scenario 1: Rey falls to the Dark Side (=Beauty & the Beast in reverse) ==> They could have her ending captured by Snoke/F.O./Unkar Plutt but honestly I don't see that happening with a scenario where they should rescue her a like in TFA or like Leia rescued Han in ROTJ.
- Scenario 2: Snoke finally gets what he wanted to achieve with Ben for years although Ben genuinely wanted to change side ( =Beauty & the Beast) ==> This is the kind of scenario where Ben could end in some near-death state and/or bonded with Snoke forever or whatever what prevent him to change side. In this scheme, Rey would definitely plays the role of the savior, refusing to abandon Ben to his fate the same way Elliott refuses to abandon E.T., Milo refuses to abandon Kida, etc...

So it depends very much of what the screenwriters intend to do with Rey's character journey. Like I wrote repeatedly, I would love to see something different than the traditional Beauty & the Beast scheme because the way Rey is portrayed in TFA would allow it. However, I was always ok with Beauty & the Beast, Scarlet Heart- Ryeo and all stories that use the traditional scheme as long as the story is well handled.[/quote]

@reylo1992

Man, I nearly miss getting off at the train station, reading this. lol!

It's scenario 1 for me personally but I see it more how a self redeemed Ben reaching out to a Dark Rey in an intense duel, via their force bond, pulling her back from the DS and together "with their combined strength", destroys Snoke for good. Not too keen of "one will save the other" scenarios. But like you say, in either scenario will depend on how the screenwriters pull this off. It could be beautiful, riveting epic or It's so painful, you'd rather stick pins in your eyes.


Last edited by Pyro Nebula on Tue 21 Feb 2017, 3:19 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Original quote not highlighted in yellow for some reason. tried to fix it.)

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Post by SkyStar on Tue 21 Feb 2017, 2:49 am

@reylo1992  cheers great read, made traffic jam easier for me!

I agree that Kylo and Rey should separate at the end of TLJ. As well as it should be made clear that they have feelings for each other. The separation will be dramatic then and will make you wonder - will they get together, what will happen next?

@Pyro Nebula I am also for Rey tapping into dark side - not being kidnapped. That is way I liked her turning dark on Luke - maybe for an event that happened connected with her parents, or because of something he hid from her. As they will probably develop strong connection as Rian have stated it would be a dark moment for her to feel be betrayed by him. And then Kylo would reach out for her to stop the dark side taking effect on her.

I don't know, I took that comment “let’s throw that at them and dig into what really makes them tick by seeing how they handle that" with - oh boy they are going to have a baaaaad time emotionally. Especially if we really do believe that Finn blows off Phasmas arm out of revenge.


I have this head canon of Kylo making a sacrifice of saving Rey or Leia at the end of TLJ for them to leave safely, but staying behind and accepting his death similar as Han's was - for his loved ones. Though he would not, because something or someone will save him at the last moment but in very ambiguous way.
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Post by Pyro Nebula on Tue 21 Feb 2017, 3:32 am

@SkyStar wrote:@reylo1992  cheers great read, made traffic jam easier for me!

I agree that Kylo and Rey should separate at the end of TLJ. As well as it should be made clear that they have feelings for each other. The separation will be dramatic then and will make you wonder - will they get together, what will happen next?

@Pyro Nebula I am also for Rey tapping into dark side - not being kidnapped. That is way I liked her turning dark on Luke - maybe for an event that happened connected with her parents, or because of something he hid from her. As they will probably develop strong connection as Rian have stated it would be a dark moment for her to feel be betrayed by him. And then Kylo would reach out for her to stop the dark side taking effect on her.

I don't know, I took that comment “let’s throw that at them and dig into what really makes them tick by seeing how they handle that" with - oh boy they are going to have a baaaaad time emotionally. Especially if we really do believe that Finn blows off Phasmas arm out of revenge.


I have this head canon of Kylo making a sacrifice of saving Rey or Leia at the end of TLJ for them to leave safely, but staying behind and accepting his death similar as Han's was - for his loved ones. Though he would not, because something or someone will save him at the last moment but in very ambiguous way.
@SkyStar

Maybe Luke Skywalker himself - perhaps he forgives Ben's betrayal by saving him at the last minute before an explosion of "Starkiller Base" version 3 and bring Ben back to Ahch-To. This could fake his death, give that assumption to the general population, only Rey would know he's still alive and she returns back to Ahch-To to him (at the end of IX, maybe).

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Post by SkyStar on Tue 21 Feb 2017, 3:40 am

@Pyro Nebula wrote:
@SkyStar wrote:@reylo1992  cheers great read, made traffic jam easier for me!

I agree that Kylo and Rey should separate at the end of TLJ. As well as it should be made clear that they have feelings for each other. The separation will be dramatic then and will make you wonder - will they get together, what will happen next?

@Pyro Nebula I am also for Rey tapping into dark side - not being kidnapped. That is way I liked her turning dark on Luke - maybe for an event that happened connected with her parents, or because of something he hid from her. As they will probably develop strong connection as Rian have stated it would be a dark moment for her to feel be betrayed by him. And then Kylo would reach out for her to stop the dark side taking effect on her.

I don't know, I took that comment “let’s throw that at them and dig into what really makes them tick by seeing how they handle that" with - oh boy they are going to have a baaaaad time emotionally. Especially if we really do believe that Finn blows off Phasmas arm out of revenge.


I have this head canon of Kylo making a sacrifice of saving Rey or Leia at the end of TLJ for them to leave safely, but staying behind and accepting his death similar as Han's was - for his loved ones. Though he would not, because something or someone will save him at the last moment but in very ambiguous way.
@SkyStar

Maybe Luke Skywalker himself - perhaps he forgives Ben's betrayal by saving him at the last minute before an explosion of "Starkiller Base" version 3 and bring Ben back to Ahch-To. This could fake his death, give that assumption to the general population, only Rey would know he's still alive and she returns back to Ahch-To to him (at the end of IX, maybe).
@Pyro Nebula

yes, I had something like that in mind! Exactly Ben using force to stop the explosion going forward. And I could imagine him turning and seeing Luke.  bounce The key is for Ben to take the decision to save others and put others before his needs.
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Post by reylo1992 on Tue 21 Feb 2017, 7:59 am

Wht if Rey had one bun...
ARCHIVE: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings - 14 - Page 3 Tumblr13
ARCHIVE: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings - 14 - Page 3 Tumblr15
ARCHIVE: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings - 14 - Page 3 Tumblr14
Source : http://gwendy85.tumblr.com/
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Post by Pyro Nebula on Wed 22 Feb 2017, 1:32 am

@reylo1992 wrote:Wht if Rey had one bun...
ARCHIVE: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings - 14 - Page 3 Tumblr13
ARCHIVE: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings - 14 - Page 3 Tumblr15
ARCHIVE: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings - 14 - Page 3 Tumblr14
Source : http://gwendy85.tumblr.com/

@reylo1992

So if we continue to compare hairstyles with BATB for TLJ, will IX be like these below?

ARCHIVE: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings - 14 - Page 3 Batb_310

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Post by reylo1992 on Wed 22 Feb 2017, 5:10 am

@Pyro Nebula wrote:
@reylo1992 wrote:Wht if Rey had one bun...
ARCHIVE: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings - 14 - Page 3 Tumblr13
ARCHIVE: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings - 14 - Page 3 Tumblr15
ARCHIVE: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings - 14 - Page 3 Tumblr14
Source : http://gwendy85.tumblr.com/

@reylo1992

So if we continue to compare hairstyles with BATB for TLJ, will IX be like these below?

ARCHIVE: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings - 14 - Page 3 Batb_310
@Pyro Nebula

Why not? That would be cool to have Rey with such hairstyle after the final fight Wink
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Post by Rei of Sunshine on Wed 22 Feb 2017, 12:19 pm

So I just saw Moana today and I really enjoyed it. 

The most important thing that stood out to me though, was the significance of Moana's mission of return the heart of Te Fiti and the story's antagonist Te Ka, the lava monster

Spoiler:
When it was revealed that Te Ka was actually the goddess Te Fiti, turned after Maui stole her heart (literally) At the very height of battle, Moana realizes that the monster she saw as the enemy to be defeated was actually the very goddess she wanted to save, and had that inspiring change of heart and called out to Te Ka to remember who she was, who she really is.

This reminded me so much about Ben and what Rey's could be to his story. Sometime in TLJ, Rey should realize that her nemesis Kylo Ren should actually be someone she needs to save. 

Disney has been exploring the themes of anti heroes and redeemable villains in the past few movies already. Elsa, Maleficent, Nick Wilde, Te Fiti, and to an extent ofc, Beast. All these redemptions happen by the heroine, and I think by now nothing can convince me against the redemption of Kylo Ren.
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