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Re: The Rey Kenobi Files

Post by Kessel on Sat 16 Dec 2017, 2:53 am

I agree that Kylo has never lied to Rey. He simply made her verbalize what he saw she believed deep inside: her parents are nobody. Imo it would be the ultimate eye-rolling cop out if they backtrack from that now. Like @ZioRen mentioned, Rey's parentage reveal in TLJ is one of the only real risks they've taken, and I think it provides Rey with some real unique depth and conflict. Even more so then if she had been kidnapped from her parents. It also contrasts her with Kylo.

For the sake of argument, I guess there's a slight chance JJ could surprise us with...something, since they seem to be subverting so many SW themes, especially when it comes to Vader and Kylo. In TESB, Vader tells Luke he's his father and many people thought he was lying, but he wasn't. So, maybe they're subverting that element here and later find out what Kylo said was wrong, but I think that ruins the impact. If they decide or make Kylo a liar (or embellisher) they're not looking to redeem him.

However, I think what's more likely is she really is "nobody" and they're subverting the expectation that she's from a special or "good" lineage.  I admit the given backstory (according to Kylo) is pretty over the top in its misery (junk traders who sold her for alcohol who are now in a pauper's grave). How does he know all that? I think Rian was seriously trolling the SW fandom's expectations for Rey Skywalker with that one, in addition to Snoke's comment about assuming Skywalker would rise up, but he assumed wrongly.

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Re: The Rey Kenobi Files

Post by Darth Dingbat on Sat 16 Dec 2017, 3:43 am

@Kessel wrote:I agree that Kylo has never lied to Rey. He simply made her verbalize what he saw she believed deep inside: her parents are nobody. Imo it would be the ultimate eye-rolling cop out if they backtrack from that now. Like @ZioRen mentioned, Rey's parentage reveal in TLJ is one of the only real risks they've taken, and I think it provides Rey with some real unique depth and conflict. Even more so then if she had been kidnapped from her parents. It also contrasts her with Kylo.

For the sake of argument, I guess there's a slight chance JJ could surprise us with...something, since they seem to be subverting so many SW themes, especially when it comes to Vader and Kylo. In TESB, Vader tells Luke he's his father and many people thought he was lying, but he wasn't. So, maybe they're subverting that element here and later find out what Kylo said was wrong, but I think that ruins the impact. If they decide or make Kylo a liar (or embellisher) they're not looking to redeem him.

However, I think what's more likely is she really is "nobody" and they're subverting the expectation that she's from a special or "good" lineage.  I admit the given backstory (according to Kylo) is pretty over the top in its misery (junk traders who sold her for alcohol who are now in a pauper's grave). How does he know all that? I think Rian was seriously trolling the SW fandom's expectations for Rey Skywalker with that one, in addition to Snoke's comment about assuming Skywalker would rise up, but he assumed wrongly.
@Kessel

I think they're also banking on the audience not entirely believing the parentage reveal; it was the case with ESB, after all. Let the speculation continue, and the mystery box is safe!
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Re: The Rey Kenobi Files

Post by Gemini on Sat 16 Dec 2017, 5:50 am

Kylo does lie/bend the truth to serve his own agenda 

He lies/bends the truth  to hux and says rey killed snoke to serve his own agenda 

He bends the truth about luke to get rey to turn on luke and she does

Its not insane to think that he's bending the truth to serve his own agenda with rey in that scene. He even lays out his master plan in the elevator which by using reys weakness of feeling worthless will make her join him
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Re: The Rey Kenobi Files

Post by Darth Dingbat on Sat 16 Dec 2017, 5:54 am

@Gemini wrote:Kylo does lie/bend the truth to serve his own agenda 

He lies/bends the truth  to hux and says rey killed snoke to serve his own agenda 

He bends the truth about luke to get rey to turn on luke and she does

Its not insane to think that he's bending the truth to serve his own agenda with rey in that scene. He even lays out his master plan in the elevator which by using reys weakness of feeling worthless will make her join him
@Gemini

Well, he also lied to Snoke when he said Han Solo means nothing to him. But I think the point was that he hasn't lied to Rey. If he lies to Rey, their connection is pretty pointless, and so is Reylo.
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Re: The Rey Kenobi Files

Post by Darth_Awakened on Sat 16 Dec 2017, 6:03 am

@Gemini wrote:Kylo does lie/bend the truth to serve his own agenda 

He lies/bends the truth  to hux and says rey killed snoke to serve his own agenda 

He bends the truth about luke to get rey to turn on luke and she does

Its not insane to think that he's bending the truth to serve his own agenda with rey in that scene. He even lays out his master plan in the elevator which by using reys weakness of feeling worthless will make her join him
@Gemini

I saw a bit from "The Art of Star Wars: The Last Jedi" with Rian's very clear comment on the Temple incident. Luke was lying. Not Kylo.

Sorry, I can't post it here for copyright reasons.
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Re: The Rey Kenobi Files

Post by Kessel on Sat 16 Dec 2017, 6:06 am

@Darth Dingbat wrote:
@Gemini wrote:Kylo does lie/bend the truth to serve his own agenda 

He lies/bends the truth  to hux and says rey killed snoke to serve his own agenda 

He bends the truth about luke to get rey to turn on luke and she does

Its not insane to think that he's bending the truth to serve his own agenda with rey in that scene. He even lays out his master plan in the elevator which by using reys weakness of feeling worthless will make her join him
@Gemini

Well, he also lied to Snoke when he said Han Solo means nothing to him. But I think the point was that he hasn't lied to Rey. If he lies to Rey, their connection is pretty pointless, and so is Reylo.
@Darth Dingbat

Exactly. It would make the effort to build their connection totally nonsensical if he lied to her on such a scale. I think we've been trolled enough, lol.

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Re: The Rey Kenobi Files

Post by Gemini on Sat 16 Dec 2017, 6:13 am

Also not fully understanding why at this point in the story (middle of the whole story)  rey random is accepted as a solid answer despite it still being  rather ambiguous and used in such a negative way against rey  but kylo getting badder, which happens at the exaxt same point in the story (which means letting go of the past and killing it is not working btw  ) is not solid and set in stone because we have a whole other movie still for kylo to develop and see the light?
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Re: The Rey Kenobi Files

Post by Darth Dingbat on Sat 16 Dec 2017, 6:22 am

I was underwhelmed by the reveal too and I don't mind if it's later clarified further, though I can't really imagine how it would work at this stage.

But I think it would be nonsensical for Ben to have lied about it when he was clearly meant to have got that information from Rey's own head.
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Re: The Rey Kenobi Files

Post by Gemini on Sat 16 Dec 2017, 6:33 am

@Kessel wrote:
@Darth Dingbat wrote:
@Gemini wrote:Kylo does lie/bend the truth to serve his own agenda 

He lies/bends the truth  to hux and says rey killed snoke to serve his own agenda 

He bends the truth about luke to get rey to turn on luke and she does

Its not insane to think that he's bending the truth to serve his own agenda with rey in that scene. He even lays out his master plan in the elevator which by using reys weakness of feeling worthless will make her join him
@Gemini

Well, he also lied to Snoke when he said Han Solo means nothing to him. But I think the point was that he hasn't lied to Rey. If he lies to Rey, their connection is pretty pointless, and so is Reylo.
@Darth Dingbat

Exactly. It would make the effort to build their connection totally nonsensical if he lied to her on such a scale. I think we've been trolled enough, lol.
@Kessel

So he will throw her under the bus (to hux)  say he will now kill her but lying to her is a complete no no?

I wouldnt say lying but witholding  something.

Imo He doesn't want her to feel that she comes from greatness because it doesn't fit his warped view at that moment in time

The vision in tfa where he seems to see her abandoned has not even been toutched on at all yet in any way shape or form

Only what she saw and felt  in the cave  which is where the dark side Festers  (random sure seems to be something the dark side wants her to feel.)


Last edited by Gemini on Sat 16 Dec 2017, 6:36 am; edited 1 time in total
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Re: The Rey Kenobi Files

Post by Kessel on Sat 16 Dec 2017, 6:36 am

@Darth Dingbat wrote:I was underwhelmed by the reveal too and I don't mind if it's later clarified further, though I can't really imagine how it would work at this stage.

But I think it would be nonsensical for Ben to have lied about it when he was clearly meant to have got that information from Rey's own head.
@Darth Dingbat

Unless Rey has it wrong in her head? But if she does, and it turns out she's actually "somebody" instead of "nobody" it completely changes the theme set up in this movie (Rey is nobody, but becomes somebody). Then we'll end up with Episode IX being disjointed from TLJ.

I do think her back story is odd though. How does Kylo know her parents sold her and are now in graves? Did he get that from her head? Somebody needs to go talk to Plutt. Is that something he told her? Also the Force vision with little Rey seems to contradict stuff (and we know Rian asked for its inclusion). I guess that may be a hint that something is off with the backstory we got.

The one thing I'm pretty certain of is she's not a Skywalker or Solo at this point. Unless JJ decides to retcon the whole thing, thus crashing and burning the logic of this entire trilogy.

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Re: The Rey Kenobi Files

Post by AhsokaTano on Sat 16 Dec 2017, 6:40 am

Yeah I’ve got the art of Star Wars too and it makes it clear Kylo isn’t lying but Luke was( and Luke probably lied out of shame ).
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Re: The Rey Kenobi Files

Post by Piper Maru on Sat 16 Dec 2017, 6:48 am

@Darth Dingbat wrote:I was underwhelmed by the reveal too and I don't mind if it's later clarified further, though I can't really imagine how it would work at this stage.

But I think it would be nonsensical for Ben to have lied about it when he was clearly meant to have got that information from Rey's own head.
@Darth Dingbat

Exactly, and the point is that SHE was the one to reveal the truth to us. She knew it all along. She was lying to herself.

Even Maz tells her that in TFA: "you already know the truth". Yes, she does.
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Re: The Rey Kenobi Files

Post by reylo1992 on Sat 16 Dec 2017, 7:11 am

@Darth_Awakened wrote:
@Gemini wrote:Kylo does lie/bend the truth to serve his own agenda 

He lies/bends the truth  to hux and says rey killed snoke to serve his own agenda 

He bends the truth about luke to get rey to turn on luke and she does

Its not insane to think that he's bending the truth to serve his own agenda with rey in that scene. He even lays out his master plan in the elevator which by using reys weakness of feeling worthless will make her join him
@Gemini

I saw a bit from "The Art of Star Wars: The Last Jedi" with Rian's very clear comment on the Temple incident. Luke was lying. Not Kylo.

Sorry, I can't post it here for copyright reasons.
@Darth_Awakened

Yeah I saw it too and posted the link in another thread. Kylo never lies in general.

First, he lies only to Hux but I don't think he has the choice there. He could kill Hux and just take over the FO but I think he knows that how risky it is to tell the truth or suspicious to kill Hux. And he is lying because he is pissed at Rey, which is understandable. I mean, Rey overreacted to her disappointment by trying to steal the lightsaber. It looks prety much like she was going to attack him. She is always the one shooting first and him the one to defend himself. And she rejected him a second time, leaving him unconscious on the floor. Of course, he is mad at her because he f****ing doesn't understand.

Second, he would be really an a** if he lied to her about that. If it is revealed that he did, I am done with Reylo. But I don't think he did until Episode 9 tells me the contrary. The whole movie and especially Kylo sends the following message: to let go of the past in order to move on for the future:

Kylo ==> Let the past die!

Luke ==> It's time for the Jedi to end!

Yoda ==> Let's burn the Jedi old texts!

Kylo ===> Let's everything die: Snoke, Skywalker, the Jedi, the Sith, the Resistance, etc...

All characters representing the past die: Snoke, Luke, General Ackbar, Leia (that was pretty close and she will have died in Episode 9 anyway)

The whole is about letting go of the past to focus on the future and create new things. This is exactly what Kylo was willing to do but he didn't figure out well what this new order should be. He only knows that he and Rey are meant to do it together. And both of them are mistaken about that common future. Rey thinks that Kylo should come back to the light and Kylo saw a vision in which she is the one who will turn. They both already they are part of their future and Kylo already knows that they will build that new order together. With that kind of message, does it make sense to reveal that she is actually a Kenobi spawn in Episode 9?

Third, how awful it would be to learn that her parents abandoned her the way they did and it appears that one of them was actually Obi-Wan's spawn. And once again, the way Rey reacts to the mirror and Kylo's words makes me think that he tells the truth. Deep inside, she's always known the truth and Kylo is helping her - harshly - to acknowledge that terrible truth she had been holding back for years.



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Re: The Rey Kenobi Files

Post by FrolickingFizzgig on Sat 16 Dec 2017, 7:48 am

My impression was that Kylo only saw what Rey didn't want to admit to herself. Rey always knew the truth, just as Maz told her on Takodana. The people she was waiting for were never coming back. The clip of Rey watching the ship fly away in TFA was something of a constructed memory. It never really happened, Rey just couldn't accept it.

Kylo wasn't lying her. At the very least he told her what he believed to be the truth. I'm hesitant to say it'll ever get referenced again because a good portion of Rey's journey in this film revolved around her confronting the fact that her parents were nobody. The mirror cave, Kylo telling her he knows the truth and finally the confrontation. It would feel very weird FOR JJ to slip in a second parentage reveal. That doesn't mean it can't happen, but it would be off (IMO).
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Re: The Rey Kenobi Files

Post by Piper Maru on Sat 16 Dec 2017, 9:21 am

@FrolickingFizzgig wrote:My impression was that Kylo only saw what Rey didn't want to admit to herself. Rey always knew the truth, just as Maz told her on Takodana. The people she was waiting for were never coming back. The clip of Rey watching the ship fly away in TFA was something of a constructed memory. It never really happened, Rey just couldn't accept it.
@FrolickingFizzgig

The bolded: yes. I thought about it yesterday.

The vision is the first part of the Jungian process of meeting your own shadow (aka the rehabilitation/analytical process), the dream in which you meet your unconscious side for the first time. It's distorted because it shows you truths that you can't quite accept or place correctly. It's not accurate, and we can see that when she sees Kylo in the forest, completely masked, when in reality he wasn't.

The mirror scene is the second part of the Jungian process, where you face your own shadow (which is actually a reflex of your true self and what you deny about yourself). This is the moment where you "merge" yourself with your shadow because your unconscious becomes conscious and drops some hard truths over your head.

It's funny, because after every scene (the meeting with the shadow and the merging with the shadow), that's what happens LITERALLY with Rey and Kylo. After meeting her Jungian Shadow on Takodana, Rey runs and meets Kylo for the first time. After merging herself with the Jungian Shadow in the Cave, Rey touches Kylo for the first time and "merges" with him.

TL;DR: She is a nobody, she knew it all along, but she needed to go through all this process to finally accept it.
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Re: The Rey Kenobi Files

Post by thescavenger on Sat 16 Dec 2017, 9:43 am

I was a staunch Rey Kenobi theorist, but TLJ really did change my mind and made me accept and digest the necessity of a Rey Random.

Now I understand why they weren't so quick to divulge Rey's parentage in TFA. It made sense plot wise to go with Rey Random in VIII particularly, because it was a major part of the Rey/Ben relationship. Her denial and his knowledge of it connected them. That's what led her to confide in him eventually in those Force Bond sessions. His attempt to get her to accept that her parents discarded her was necessary for Rey's own character development. I think in time, Rey will come to see that Ben was right in letting go of the past in this sense.

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http://www.reyloskyforum.net/viewtopic.forum?t=790
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