Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings

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Post by Xylo Ren on Tue 17 Oct 2017, 6:11 pm

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Post by rey09 on Tue 17 Oct 2017, 6:46 pm

This is old news but I was reading about how the adult and junior novelizations say that when Maz talks to Rey, Rey never says Luke and Maz actually says someone could still come "with your help." Anyone can verify?
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Post by Saracene on Tue 17 Oct 2017, 6:50 pm

@jakkusun wrote:
@Saracene wrote:I always saw the non-platonic romance as the endgame for Rey and Kylo, simply because, while their relationship is not bound to the real-world rules, Star Wars (or at least the films) is really not that complicated when it comes to emotions, and is very much grounded in the real-world emotions. A purely spiritual relationship that’s all about the force might be fascinating, but I’d say that it’s always going to feel somewhat cold and remote to the majority of the audience, because it’s not something anyone in the real world can personally relate to.
@Saracene

Except maybe asexual/aromatic people or people who just have really deep and meaningful friendships. I get the point...that it makes sense to go all the way with the raw human emotions involved in a romance rather than just halfway with something more nuanced and subdued. But still...platonic/spiritual relationships aren't cold or unrelatable or unrealistic...maybe it isn't fit for drama in a space opera, idk..but it's still very warm and human and real to love platonically, I think.
@jakkusun

My point wasn't really about platonic relationships in general. I'm just saying that a spiritual relationship that's based on two people's connection through the force is not something that happens in the real world, since the force itself doesn't exist in the real world. Whereas being in love is something that the majority of the audience can relate to (I get the point about asexual/aromantic people, but they don't make up the majority and a huge popular franchise is not going to have them in mind).
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Post by DarthRen on Tue 17 Oct 2017, 7:32 pm

@jakkusun

Both are imo important, warm and you can relate to both. Disney and LF will probably have to decide, so the point is clear for everyone. If they try to go for something more complicated, it might not fly that well with everyone. We can have different views on it, for us it might not make much of a difference, because we can see and analyze the depth of it much further. We spend our time making theories, metas and speculate. But for the most of SW fans. I know a lot of them are just casual fans who see movies. When we watch TFA, my friend thought that Kylo and Rey will be lovers, Finn and Rey only friends. Didn't went into the depth, just asking me what I was thinking romance or friendship. Not like romance/friendship/spiritual kind of relationship, something more complex. Just this or that.

This is were I fear for Reylo because not everyone will understand it if they go platonic and spiritual bond. Their relationship is unique but also tricky. It can easily be misinterpretated by some people and don't mean antis. I hope Rian and JJ will make it cleary and if they try to go for a more complex route, it will staisfy fandom in general.
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Post by Tex on Tue 17 Oct 2017, 7:51 pm

@snufkin wrote:@cowgirlsamurai - if the ground split open just from their couple's fight (which it totally was, no wonder poor Finn was 3rd wheeling and she gave Kylo a look like she was going to throw a plate at his head), just imagine the possibilities, hahaha!  Naw, that's when @gemini first pointed out to the choker shots from the fight which were part of Ava DuVernay's suggestions to JJ about how to improve that sequence, a lot of us started looking at the individual shots/images. Which holy sh*t, a lot of recognized those type of facial expressions for finding the Force from, uh, life experience. And the identical close up shots Hitchcock used for Gregory Peck and Ingrid Bergman in Spellbound to show the lightning bolt of love/lust/dark psychological bonding that happens between their characters.

@RandomObserver - I'd absolute bet that part of Carrie Fisher's participation and Leia's role in the ST is starting to kick in the door for showing that women don't retire to the domestic sphere when they become mothers. If anything, the responsibility of being a mother means that the stakes are even higher for them because somebody else is dependent on them. Watching the trailer, she sure as Hell looks like her mom, especially in the connecting through the Force parts with Kylo. If you've watched Bright Lights,  the documentary about their lives and relationships, you know that Debbie went through Hell thanks to the Hollywood Studio system, entertainment industry, 3 sh*tty husbands, bankruptcy, and kept on working her a** off because she had children and bills to pay. She wasn't going to let anybody steal her of her dignity or self-respect. Both her daughter and granddaughter are in this movie and I'd sure as f**k bet that one of the subtexts for Leia's storyline is a tribute to the type of woman and mother Debbie Reynolds was*. Which BTW, one of my ongoing irritation with a lot of the "feminist" discussion around the ST is the fact that you had both Carrie and Dame Harriet Walter show up grey hair, wrinkles, and giving no f**ks in TFA, when Hollywood likes to pretend that women don't exist after they turn 26. Or how there are just women everywhere, doing their jobs and living their own private lives as part of the world being shown. Because other than Luke's aunt who got killed off pretty fast, that wasn't in the movie I remember seeing as a kid.

There's been some dumb a** comments and knee-jerk reactions around whatever happened with Ben where people either imply that Leia put the needs of the galaxy ahead of her child. Which no, it's clear from Claudia Grey's novel and TFA that she tried her best with Ben, the same way Bail and Breha did with her. And when it came to Force stuff, normal Force stuff, not even the Raw Ancient Power, she was out of her depth and sought out Luke because she thought he had the expertise to help Ben. Which she now realizes was the wrong choice, that what would've been best for Ben would've been to stay with her and Han and work it through together as a family. Both the Force stuff and all of the secret/repressed family history about her biological father. But that's so typical for what women face, more scrutiny and judgment no matter what choices you make for how you're going to raise your children. Meanwhile, nobody ever says that about men (how many bad father comments have been out there about Han or Vader?).  I also don't think it's a coincidence that LF has made a point in the business press to talk about how they've changed their company culture to be more supportive of women when it comes to Work-Life balance. They don't want their employees to cut themselves off from their personal lives, families, and outside relationships, so why would they want that for Rey?

* It's a given TLJ will be dedicted to Carrie, but I won't be surprised if it's dedicated to both her and Debbie. Or if Debbie is thanked in the credits.
@snufkin

Woohoo! This post is full of win. It goes from discussing force sex to the importance of women over 30. Preach it @snufkin Claps
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Post by snufkin on Tue 17 Oct 2017, 8:36 pm

@Tex, it's my Cher Horowitz speech!



Just compare the trailer for TLJ with the one which just dropped for Black Panther (and in an ideal world would've been the one played at a NFL halftime show) and count the # of different female characters versus what we've seen for Star Wars. The franchise has always run on a serious deficit of including women characters beyond Carrie Fisher's crack that she was the only woman in the galaxy. Let alone for WoC. But the other part is how she had zero patience for the questions about aging or weight in the press tour for TFA because she knew thanks to her own life and especially from her mother, what the industry does to women. She flat out said to the attempted happy talk (which she wasn't going to do) Good Morning America interview that she took the call because "I'm over 50 and they don't offer roles to women when you get to be that age." She was blunt about how "they only wanted to hire 3/4th of me" but also about how "I didn't realize that I had signed a lifelong contract to look the way I did when I was 23."  It's pretty radical how TFA shows her (baboon a** hairstyle and all) with grey hair, same with Dame Harriet Walter because you don't see that happening. And we know with the lid being blown off right now thanks to Harvey Weinstein all of the reasons why that doesn't happen. But for all the different femnist hot takes, some shallow and some right on, you almost never hear the topic of what it means to just have women there. As older women like Leia and Dr. Kahlona, more WoC and women who have relationships that aren't about men, like the Tico sisters, just women in general being present and part of the society shown. That was not a factor in the OT, Leia was the only women ever in either the Rebel Alliance or marginally included as part of the Force plot. And Carrie was talking pretty loud and clear about these topics in the run up interviews to her death. You'd think some of the discussion would pick up about that instead of the fixation about what Rey should or shouldn't do because of people's expectations that she be like Leia and carry the entire weight of her gender and feminism (which isn't a hivemind and TBH I find a lot of SW fan attitudes to be pretty 2nd wave). She doesn't have to carry it because she's not going to be the only woman and there are going to be many different types of women in TLJ.


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Post by snufkin on Tue 17 Oct 2017, 8:47 pm

@rey09 I remember one of them (maybe the junior one b/c it's better written) has Maz say "Whomever you're waiting for on Jakku, they're never coming back. But there's somebody else who still could, with your help?" to which Rey replies "Luke?" Maz doesn't answer and that's when she says "the belonging you seek isn't behind you, it's ahead." Rey freaks out and runs away into the woods and Yadda Yadda Yadda, guess who hears about her being in the forest, goes chasing after her, and they have the moment JJ describes as two trains colliding because they'll have a very interesting relationship going forward? Hint - it's not her brother or cousin who she runs into in the forest. Or her deadbeat dad Maz is referring to (how did people filter out this stuff? It seems pretty straight forward)
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Post by Saracene on Tue 17 Oct 2017, 9:10 pm

Re: Rey carrying the weight of gender and the presence of other female characters in the ST, I think it’s not really enough anymore for the women just to be in a film. If these women are ultimately forgettable characters like Maz and Phasma are in TFA, their presence doesn’t really mean much. The last Blade Runner movie didn’t get any points for female representation merely because it had quite a few female characters, why would Star Wars? And at this point, we have no way of knowing if the new female characters in TLJ are going to be any better, so hailing their existence would be premature IMO.
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Post by ISeeAnIsland on Tue 17 Oct 2017, 9:21 pm

@RosiePancake wrote:
@Night Huntress wrote:not that I wanna go down that path already... but we know Ben is the last Skywalker. If they gonna have a platonic relationship, who will continue the Skywalker line? Some random chick Ben nails off screen? (sorry for the choice of words WinksD ) Not that I wanna make Rey a breed mare but it would be strange if her place would be "buddy of Ben and spiritual soulmate" whatever and they both will have another love interest in IX?
I mean, Disney is all about money and I bet they wanna make another trilogy?
@Night Huntress


yeah, i can imagine the awkwardness when Kylo tries to introduce Rey to his "wife": "Hey honey, this is my force-soul-mate, we are the two halves of the force, we have spent many times to discover the force together cause we feel equal in many ways andddd we can easily read each other's mind plus force-sex anytime we want"  lol!
@RosiePancake

And I'm sure that Rey's introduction of Kylo would go over just as well to her future partner.
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Post by rey09 on Tue 17 Oct 2017, 9:38 pm

@RosiePancake wrote:
@Night Huntress wrote:not that I wanna go down that path already... but we know Ben is the last Skywalker. If they gonna have a platonic relationship, who will continue the Skywalker line? Some random chick Ben nails off screen? (sorry for the choice of words WinksD ) Not that I wanna make Rey a breed mare but it would be strange if her place would be "buddy of Ben and spiritual soulmate" whatever and they both will have another love interest in IX?
I mean, Disney is all about money and I bet they wanna make another trilogy?
@Night Huntress


yeah, i can imagine the awkwardness when Kylo tries to introduce Rey to his "wife": "Hey honey, this is my force-soul-mate, we are the two halves of the force, we have spent many times to discover the force together cause we feel equal in many ways andddd we can easily read each other's mind plus force-sex anytime we want"  lol!
@RosiePancake omggg this is EXACTLY why reylo is happening. IT'S JUST DAMN COMMON SENSE. 

@snufkin ah ok yea i just learned about that added part "with your help." It def. aint luke, he doesn't care for her! lmao he asks her "why are you here?" in the trailer. I also recall seeing in the junior book Maz is like "rey is where she needs to be" aka the "extremely important scene" ala KK. They are smacking us in the face with reylo.
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Post by Tex on Tue 17 Oct 2017, 10:08 pm

@RosiePancake wrote:
@Night Huntress wrote:not that I wanna go down that path already... but we know Ben is the last Skywalker. If they gonna have a platonic relationship, who will continue the Skywalker line? Some random chick Ben nails off screen? (sorry for the choice of words WinksD ) Not that I wanna make Rey a breed mare but it would be strange if her place would be "buddy of Ben and spiritual soulmate" whatever and they both will have another love interest in IX?
I mean, Disney is all about money and I bet they wanna make another trilogy?
@Night Huntress


yeah, i can imagine the awkwardness when Kylo tries to introduce Rey to his "wife": "Hey honey, this is my force-soul-mate, we are the two halves of the force, we have spent many times to discover the force together cause we feel equal in many ways andddd we can easily read each other's mind plus force-sex anytime we want"  lol!
@RosiePancake

I had sort of a bad day at work, but the imagery of this situation made me laugh out loud and truly brightened my day. I just imagine how Adam as Kylo would deliver those lines in a scene. Ha!

Honestly with this whole two halves, intertwined destinies, mysterious connection, untamed, raw power stuff you just have to do a romance. There was a point in time where it could have been a platonic relationship. And I was totally ready to settle for that, but that time has passed. The language used in the marketing to describe their impending relationship is just to on the nose. As your scenario suggests how could these two people not end up romantically involved?
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Post by snufkin on Wed 18 Oct 2017, 1:20 am

Now that we've sort of figured out the Raw Power and interlinked destinies part, it sure is interesting going back to revisit things. Besides how everything falls apart and the Earth cracks during the fight is more than just the bombs going off, there's the lens flare between their chests

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Post by reylo1992 on Wed 18 Oct 2017, 4:04 pm

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Post by shii405 on Thu 19 Oct 2017, 9:42 pm

Things seems to be better and more exciting for us day by day with even just small findings. But i need to manage my expectation here. Can we list all the possible scenarios and how many percentage of possibility they will happen? Both for VIII and IX 

1. Kylo and Rey both have similar raw power and energy : this is 100% confirmed right?

2. Kylo and Rey will have Force bond and will be able to read each other's minds : 100%

3. They team up and become allies at certain moment : 80% maybe?

4. Become partners and allies forever : 70%

5. Goes on adventure and training together : 50% ??? Im not sure

6. Fall in love: 30% im very hopeful but we still know too little to make assumptions?
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Post by reylo1992 on Fri 20 Oct 2017, 1:19 pm

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Post by reylo1992 on Fri 20 Oct 2017, 1:39 pm

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Post by reylo1992 on Sat 21 Oct 2017, 7:34 am

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Post by Moonlight13 on Sat 21 Oct 2017, 8:11 am

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Post by Guest on Sun 22 Oct 2017, 12:44 pm

On another forum, someone linked to an interview with Rick Carter (production designer) and intended to use certain quotes as an argument against Reylo happening. However, after going through the interview, I have discovered several gems in it that I think actually greatly support Reylo as well as a redemption arc for Kylo.

WARNING: There is mention of Kylo and Rey's interrogation scene being described as a mind r**e. This is the reason the original poster, an anti, shared the article. I will not include that quote here. But I think we need to consider the interview as a whole, because it is otherwise very positive news for Reylo/pro-redemption fans. Most of it directly complements the very things JJ said in his commentary, and perhaps best of all, this is from December 2015.

Rick Carter wrote:“And now we’re in a swashbuckling, medieval movie with knights and we’re finding Excalibur. And the next step is we actually get to go with Snow White out in a forest and the Dark Prince comes and puts her in a spell and carries her off.

Rey and Kylo are described here as Snow White and a Dark Prince. Even JJ had left that description somewhat ambiguous in his commentary:

JJ Abrams wrote:You’re probably going to have a castle, and a prince and a princess, if you’re looking at a fairy tale. We wanted to give these sort of, fundamental, not cosmetic, but, sort of, prerequisite elements. These locations in which we can set our new story and our new characters.”

There has been debate on who JJ is referring to exactly with the "prince and a princess" comment; although we figured out quite easily that he means Kylo and Rey, it is nice to have it spelled out in more concrete terms. We know now, according to Carter, that it had been intended all along for Kylo and Rey to portray these specific fairy tale-like roles.

As for Han Solo's death and what that could mean for Kylo's redemption? There is still hope after all.

Rick Carter wrote:Yet there’s still “a new hope” tied to Solo’s sacrifice: “When he puts his hand up to his son’s face, he’s marking him emotionally, the way the first Stormtrooper marked Finn [John Boyega] with blood in battle. Of course, the important thing is that it’s witnessed by Rey [Daisy Ridley]. It’s like what Obi-Wan tells Darth Vader: ‘If you strike me down, I shall become more powerful than you can possibly imagine.'”

Finn being "marked" by the dying stormtrooper during the attack on the Jakku village set an entirely new course for his fate. It was at that moment that he seemed to "wake up" from his previous conditioning and began to question everything. Not very long after that, he decided that he wasn't going to fight for the First Order anymore. Kylo being marked by Han, for a similar purpose, speaks volumes as to what may lie ahead for him.

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Post by DarthRen on Sun 22 Oct 2017, 1:09 pm

Awesome @WhatGirl. Thanks for sharing that.

What is interesting that Rey marked Kylo on the exact same spot where Han marked/touched Kylo. This is not a coincidence. It's as if this is connected. Mwehe Like he might fight for her instead of FO.
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Post by Guest on Sun 22 Oct 2017, 1:40 pm

Also worth noting: Han's death is called a sacrifice. This is very important too. He wasn't an unknowing victim who just happened to be in the wrong place, at the wrong time. The term sacrifice denotes informed intention. He knew there was a chance he'd die, yet he decided to go out onto that bridge anyway.

And who did he sacrifice himself for? They all could've escaped without interacting at all with Kylo. So Han's sacrifice was not about easing their escape; revealing himself to his son actually did the opposite and made escape much more difficult. I think it's clear that he sacrificed himself for Ben, and this isn't going to be wasted by just having him stay on the wrong side.

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Post by PalmettoBlue on Sun 22 Oct 2017, 2:08 pm

WhatGirl wrote:Also worth noting: Han's death is called a sacrifice. This is very important too. He wasn't an unknowing victim who just happened to be in the wrong place, at the wrong time. The term sacrifice denotes informed intention. He knew there was a chance he'd die, yet he decided to go out onto that bridge anyway.

And who did he sacrifice himself for? They all could've escaped without interacting at all with Kylo. So Han's sacrifice was not about easing their escape; revealing himself to his son actually did the opposite and made escape much more difficult. I think it's clear that he sacrificed himself for Ben, and this isn't going to be wasted by just having him stay on the wrong side.
@WhatGirl

Exactly. That’s what so many people fail to grasp: if Ben Solo isn’t redeemed, then JJ & co. killed one of the most beloved characters in Star Wars for nothing. It’s beyond tragic.

But, if that single act sets him on the road to redemption (and I believe it has), then his death will be incredibly meaningful, and not just for the Skywalkers. Think of all the damage an unredeemed Kylo Ren would wreck. With his sheer power, he could surpass Vader himself.

I’d also add that Rey has now seen the worst of Ben Solo, and she’s seen his reaction. Deep down, she knows he regrets what he’s done.

Like Kylo, I’m an optimist - I see them going to better places from here.
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Post by DarthRen on Sun 22 Oct 2017, 2:19 pm

@PalmettoBlue wrote:
WhatGirl wrote:Also worth noting: Han's death is called a sacrifice. This is very important too. He wasn't an unknowing victim who just happened to be in the wrong place, at the wrong time. The term sacrifice denotes informed intention. He knew there was a chance he'd die, yet he decided to go out onto that bridge anyway.

And who did he sacrifice himself for? They all could've escaped without interacting at all with Kylo. So Han's sacrifice was not about easing their escape; revealing himself to his son actually did the opposite and made escape much more difficult. I think it's clear that he sacrificed himself for Ben, and this isn't going to be wasted by just having him stay on the wrong side.
@WhatGirl

Exactly. That’s what so many people fail to grasp: if Ben Solo isn’t redeemed, then JJ & co. killed one of the most beloved characters in Star Wars for nothing. It’s beyond tragic.

But, if that single act sets him on the road to redemption (and I believe it has), then his death will be incredibly meaningful, and not just for the Skywalkers. Think of all the damage an unredeemed Kylo Ren would wreck. With his sheer power, he could surpass Vader himself.

I’d also add that Rey has now seen the worst of Ben Solo, and she’s seen his reaction. Deep down, she knows he regrets what he’s done.

Like Kylo, I’m an optimist - I see them going to better places from here.
@PalmettoBlue

Not to mention what about Leia. Since Leia will survive because as original plan stands, then another tragedy would just be unfair to her. She lost virtually almost everything and what sort of message would that be? Kylo will be redeemed or otherwise this gonna send a bad message and not be SW we know and love. KK said herself that hope is what this is whole based upon on.

I agree with Rey. I think she'll get there to understand Kylo's emotions and regret he has in TLJ and why he is the way he is. Daisy's words about Rey not understanding Kylo are proof of that. She had to witness it and Finn for that matter. They weren't there just to be there, they were there for a reason. Not just that Kylo can notice them and go after them. Leia felt it via Force, but that Carrie will not be in Episode IX, I think Kylo's redemption will be tied to Rey and somehow Finn.
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Post by DeeBee on Sun 22 Oct 2017, 6:48 pm

@shii405 wrote:Things seems to be better and more exciting for us day by day with even just small findings. But i need to manage my expectation here. Can we list all the possible scenarios and how many percentage of possibility they will happen? Both for VIII and IX 

1. Kylo and Rey both have similar raw power and energy : this is 100% confirmed right?

2. Kylo and Rey will have Force bond and will be able to read each other's minds : 100%

3. They team up and become allies at certain moment : 80% maybe?

4. Become partners and allies forever : 70%

5. Goes on adventure and training together : 50% ??? Im not sure

6. Fall in love: 30% im very hopeful but we still know too little to make assumptions?
@shii405

Thanks @shii405!  I love a good summary Smile

regarding 2. Kylo and Rey will have Force bond and will be able to read each other's minds : 100%
My current thinking is: Yes they can read each other's minds.. however,  I don't know if they will always be able to read each other's minds.. or if there will be a way to block it at all (kryptonite?! Wink haaa).

I wonder if Snoke will have access to Rey's mind now Rey and Kylo/Ben seem to have forged this force bond. Uh oh.
Or since one of Snoke's abilities is telepathy, does this mean he would have had access once he knew about her anyway?
So many interesting questions.. I just hope we get some answers in December. TFA was frustratingly light on answers and heavy on questions (IMHO of course).

for 3 -6:  100% for me Smile I want it all!!!
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