The Reproductive Imperative

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Re: The Reproductive Imperative

Post by vaderito on Fri 25 Aug 2017, 5:39 pm

@Cowgirlsamurai wrote:I'm sorry, but how often do you sleep with someone and NOT form an attachment? I mean, I know it happens, hence my one night stands comment, but really? I usually form an attachment BEFORE sleeping with someone, LOL. "They can have sex but not get attached," sounds like a cruel form of torture. "How do I do that, Master?" "Just sleep with people you hate." Shocked

Edit: Oh wait. Jedi are probably not allowed to "hate" either Razz
@Cowgirlsamurai

toldja. His backtrack is a complete embarrassment because it makes zero sense. I'm no fan of warrior monk Jedi but I'm even less fan of wishy-washy film-making. Man up and stand by your idea, GL.

Re: love triangle. Yep, the residue of that idea is in Anakin's inexplicable last minute jealousy of Obi Wan. Mustfar scenes with him, Padme and OB1 play like he believed that Padme was cheating on him. Which was totally random and WTF in the context of the movie where Padme barely shared a scene with OB1 and, except that one occasion right before Mustafar, never just 2 of them.

Movies reveal many ideas that went into them including ideas that were discarded or copped out or changed in some other way. For example, ROTS totally builds up to the poetic irony of Anakin killing Padme (whom he obsessively tried to save so much so he betrayed the Jedi and himself) and then chickens out so obviously that you don't know whether to laugh or cry or both.
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Re: The Reproductive Imperative

Post by snufkin on Fri 25 Aug 2017, 8:35 pm

From some of the background articles/oral histories about the OT, it sounds like Kasdan had written a back story for Padme. Which is why he has Leia talk about her early childhood memories of her mother. That she took Leia and fled to Alderaan to be sheltered/hidden by the friends who eventually become Leia's adoptive parents. Obi-Wan takes Luke off to Tatooine to live with adoptive parents who were (at one point) his brother and sister-in-law. Watching the OT as a kid and having parents who owned the original Broadway soundtrack for Camelot, I figured it was that type of situation. Especially with Obi-Wan's comment about a more civilized time. Even the "too much of his father in him...that's what I'm afraid of", which is vague, I figured it meant that something tragic had happened which they had kept from Luke. So when the Vader dad reveal happens, your mind starts trying to fill in the blanks because there's obviously no Mrs. Vader around. It's easy to come up with some epic, awful tragedy. Which if they'd never explained it beyond what Kasdan wrote, it'd be fine. Just that what GL came up with to support his whole "showing how somebody who starts as a good hearted kid goes down the path of darkness" scenario, it got pitched out the window.
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Re: The Reproductive Imperative

Post by SoloSideCousin on Fri 25 Aug 2017, 9:56 pm

@snufkin wrote:From some of the background articles/oral histories about the OT, it sounds like Kasdan had written a back story for Padme. Which is why he has Leia talk about her early childhood memories of her mother. That she took Leia and fled to Alderaan to be sheltered/hidden by the friends who eventually become Leia's adoptive parents. Obi-Wan takes Luke off to Tatooine to live with adoptive parents who were (at one point) his brother and sister-in-law. Watching the OT as a kid and having parents who owned the original Broadway soundtrack for Camelot, I figured it was that type of situation. Especially with Obi-Wan's comment about a more civilized time. Even the "too much of his father in him...that's what I'm afraid of", which is vague, I figured it meant that something tragic had happened which they had kept from Luke. So when the Vader dad reveal happens, your mind starts trying to fill in the blanks because there's obviously no Mrs. Vader around. It's easy to come up with some epic, awful tragedy. Which if they'd never explained it beyond what Kasdan wrote, it'd be fine. Just that what GL came up with to support his whole "showing how somebody who starts as a good hearted kid goes down the path of darkness" scenario, it got pitched out the window.
@snufkin

Had he gone with the Camelot idea, (which seems pretty freaking organic and inherent to the material given how many of us saw it, even as kids), the fall also wouldn't have been *all* Anakin's fault. It would be a joint effort in blame. Anakin, Obi-Wan, Padme, the Jedi, would all get a piece of the responsibility of creating this "fallen angel" so to speak, if they still started with Anakin as a kid. That would have been beautifully complex to the point of being Shakespearean if done well. I mean to add to @iojovi's great post, imagine rewatching the OT *after* a PT where Obi-Wan and Padme had an affair or were even just secretly in love? Obi-Wan would be teaching the boy whose father was ruined in part because of his own actions. He would be asking the son of the man he wronged to kill said man!!! He played a role in creating the monster and now he's telling the monster's kid to kill the monster because they can't control the monster anymore and he needs to be put down like a rabid dog. I mean Obi-Wan kind of did that in that he probably made some errors in training Anakin, but that's all kind of esoteric. With the wrong being an affair, the wrong would be personal and gutwrenching.

But to do something like that GL could not have had cut-and-dry, black and white characters *and* he would have had to deal with sex in a much more real way in the PT. I mean even if Obi-Wan and Padme never had sex, he'd have to show some elicit or secret desire ... And the thing is, sex and grey, complex characters are not really GL's thing. That's why he needed people like Kasdan, Marcia Lucas and Gary Kurtz with him during the prequels ... but unfortunately he didnt.
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Re: The Reproductive Imperative

Post by snufkin on Fri 25 Aug 2017, 10:57 pm

@solosidecousin - Yeah and Kasdan has said he debated with Lucas what type of person Obi-Wan was. Like he saw him as being like one of Kurosawa's samurai, somebody who's not a clear cut good guy but shady/wily. It certainly would've been a more realistic take on the character, especially when you have two actors who were/are very good at playing those type of those type of characters where you want to trust them, but you're also never quite sure if you should trust them (or what their goals are).

The love story in the PT, like I've said before, Padme is like Diane Court in Say Anything, a brain trapped in the body of a game show hostess. Both her character and Leia's depended heavily on the personality and smarts of the actresses playing them. It's just that things turned out better for Carrie Fisher than it did for than Natalie Portman. Likely because she's a writer and like you said, Lucas didn't write as much of her Leia's character versus Gloria Katz, Leigh Brackett, Fisher herself, and Kasdan.
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Re: The Reproductive Imperative

Post by SoloSideCousin on Fri 25 Aug 2017, 11:14 pm

@snufkin wrote:@solosidecousin - Yeah and Kasdan has said he debated with Lucas what type of person Obi-Wan was. Like he saw him as being like one of Kurosawa's samurai, somebody who's not a clear cut good guy but shady/wily. It certainly would've been a more realistic take on the character, especially when you have two actors who were/are very good at playing those type of those type of characters where you want to trust them, but you're also never quite sure if you should trust them (or what their goals are).

The love story in the PT, like I've said before, Padme is like Diane Court in Say Anything, a brain trapped in the body of a game show hostess. Both her character and Leia's depended heavily on the personality and smarts of the actresses playing them. It's just that things turned out better for Carrie Fisher than it did for than Natalie Portman. Likely because she's a writer and like you said, Lucas didn't write as much of her Leia's character versus Gloria Katz, Leigh Brackett, Fisher herself, and Kasdan.
@snufkin

Exactly. The PT3 were laden with a GL who had a "god-like" status ... at least early on ... and even later he still controlled all the money.Back when they were making ANG and ESB, he was still a mere mortal and still needed some financing.
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Re: The Reproductive Imperative

Post by snufkin on Fri 25 Aug 2017, 11:18 pm

@Solosidecousin - I tell you what, he did the movies in the wrong order because the way you buy Vader as this charismatic brilliant dude who'd end up in that type of tragic romance would be if you had young JEJ play him, not Mr "I hate sand" pretty boy football captain.

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Re: The Reproductive Imperative

Post by SoloSideCousin on Fri 25 Aug 2017, 11:41 pm

@snufkin wrote:@Solosidecousin - I tell you what, he did the movies in the wrong order because the way you buy Vader as this charismatic brilliant dude who'd end up in that type of tragic romance would be if you had young JEJ play him, not Mr "I hate sand" pretty boy football captain.

@snufkin

Holy sith, what a presence that man has! Just a glimpse of his picture stops the heart. I think Hayden had a lot of misfortune with the PT, but geez, that poor kid was never going to match JEJ in presence and charisma, very few actors can.
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Re: The Reproductive Imperative

Post by snufkin on Sat 26 Aug 2017, 12:22 am

@SoloSideCousin - even with changing the original idea for the PT characters and their backstory, you can't look at Vader, who's so smart, bored/contemptuous of his adversaries, and witty as embodied by JEJ and figure that same guy depicted in the PT somehow grew into that personality. It just wasn't there, completely different guy and JEJ made that character iconic just with his voice alone.
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Re: The Reproductive Imperative

Post by Acritiqua on Sat 26 Aug 2017, 1:35 am

It makes me wish young JEJ could have played Anakin. Hah!
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Re: The Reproductive Imperative

Post by vaderito on Sat 26 Aug 2017, 3:04 am

@SoloSideCousin

But to do something like that GL could not have had cut-and-dry, black and white characters *and* he would have had to deal with sex in a much more real way in the PT. I mean even if Obi-Wan and Padme never had sex, he'd have to show some elicit or secret desire ... And the thing is, sex and grey, complex characters are not really GL's thing. That's why he needed people like Kasdan, Marcia Lucas and Gary Kurtz with him during the prequels ... but unfortunately he didnt.

JJ and Kasdan got the sex part perfectly which is why Rey and Kylo scenes are such favorites with the target audience they are written for. You understand it's about sexual awakening (interrogation, forest meeting) and sex (when they were finding the Force on the cliff) but there's no actual sex. Yet you understand it is about sex. That's why it left some fans uncomfortable. They got it but didn't want to believe it. hence some of them still denying that Kylo's interest in the gurrl is because of sexual attraction.

@snufkin

even with changing the original idea for the PT characters and their backstory, you can't look at Vader, who's so smart, bored/contemptuous of his adversaries, and witty as embodied by JEJ and figure that same guy depicted in the PT somehow grew into that personality. It just wasn't there, completely different guy and JEJ made that character iconic just with his voice alone.

Preach! PT never captured Vader in Anakin while ST captured Anakin AND Vader in Kylo. His exchange with Hux and Mitaka is pure Vader snark. But then, Vader's wittiest lines are from Kasdan's ESB. "Apology accepted, Captain Needa" lol!

And, yes, unmasking Vader to show it isn't JEJ is probably the biggest anti-climax ever. JEJ IS Vader. I'm totally with Campea here. Prowse posturing is rather comical but JEJ voice is everything. It is the character.




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Re: The Reproductive Imperative

Post by Darth_Awakened on Sat 26 Aug 2017, 3:22 am

@vaderito wrote:@SoloSideCousin

But to do something like that GL could not have had cut-and-dry, black and white characters *and* he would have had to deal with sex in a much more real way in the PT. I mean even if Obi-Wan and Padme never had sex, he'd have to show some elicit or secret desire ... And the thing is, sex and grey, complex characters are not really GL's thing. That's why he needed people like Kasdan, Marcia Lucas and Gary Kurtz with him during the prequels ... but unfortunately he didnt.

JJ and Kasdan got the sex part perfectly which is why Rey and Kylo scenes are such favorites with the target audience they are written for. You understand it's about sexual awakening (interrogation, forest meeting) and sex (when they were finding the Force on the cliff) but there's no actual sex. Yet you understand it is about sex. That's why it left some fans uncomfortable. They got it but didn't want to believe it. hence some of them still denying that Kylo's interest in the gurrl is because of sexual attraction.

@snufkin

even with changing the original idea for the PT characters and their backstory, you can't look at Vader, who's so smart, bored/contemptuous of his adversaries, and witty as embodied by JEJ and figure that same guy depicted in the PT somehow grew into that personality. It just wasn't there, completely different guy and JEJ made that character iconic just with his voice alone.

Preach! PT never captured Vader in Anakin while ST captured Anakin AND Vader in Kylo. His exchange with Hux and Mitaka is pure Vader snark. But then, Vader's wittiest lines are from Kasdan's ESB. "Apology accepted, Captain Needa" lol!

And, yes, unmasking Vader to show it isn't JEJ is probably the biggest anti-climax ever. JEJ IS Vader. I'm totally with Campea here. Prowse posturing is rather comical but JEJ voice is everything. It is the character.


@vaderito

Agreed. JEJ will always be Vader to me. As well, one of my biggest complaints about PT Anakin is that he has not got a bit of Vader in him.
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Re: The Reproductive Imperative

Post by Cowgirlsamurai on Sat 26 Aug 2017, 7:32 am

I agree that JEJ IS Vader and in a perfect world he would've played him visually too at some point, but since we didn't get that... it makes sense that Anakin and Vader feel like two different people. GL could've written Anakin with a bit more Vader snark, but I think the pretty boy who loses his mom and his girl turned bitter, bad***, machine man is still pretty interesting. I know some people will hate the idea, but maybe if there were a movie about young Vader to show what happens to him that gives him the personality of OT Vader, things could be smoothed out a bit in regards to his character...
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Re: The Reproductive Imperative

Post by vaderito on Sat 26 Aug 2017, 8:02 am

@Cowgirlsamurai wrote:I agree that JEJ IS Vader and in a perfect world he would've played him visually too at some point, but since we didn't get that... it makes sense that Anakin and Vader feel like two different people. GL could've written Anakin with a bit more Vader snark, but I think the pretty boy who loses his mom and his girl turned bitter, bad***, machine man is still pretty interesting. I know some people will hate the idea, but maybe if there were a movie about young Vader to show what happens to him that gives him the personality of OT Vader, things could be smoothed out a bit in regards to his character...
@Cowgirlsamurai

I don't hate the idea at all and Ankin is my second favorite after Kylo. But GL should have made a transition smoother, at least give Anakin the seeds of Vader-esque confidence, contempt and wit in ROTS. TFA nailed it with Kylo in far fewer scenes.
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Re: The Reproductive Imperative

Post by Lily Snape on Sun 27 Aug 2017, 1:31 am

@SoloSideCousin wrote:
@snufkin wrote:@Solosidecousin - I tell you what, he did the movies in the wrong order because the way you buy Vader as this charismatic brilliant dude who'd end up in that type of tragic romance would be if you had young JEJ play him, not Mr "I hate sand" pretty boy football captain.

@snufkin

Holy sith, what a presence that man has! Just a glimpse of his picture stops the heart. I think Hayden had a lot of misfortune with the PT, but geez, that poor kid was never going to match JEJ in presence and charisma, very few actors can.
@SoloSideCousin

I've seen some of these photos before, and it blows my mind to think that this intense, handsome young man would have sounded like JAMES EARL JONES when he talked.  There's a maturity to that magnificent voice, but really, he probably sounded more or less like that even when he was young and pretty rather than mature and dignified.  Smile Just wow.
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Re: The Reproductive Imperative

Post by ISeeAnIsland on Sun 27 Aug 2017, 10:51 am

@vaderito wrote:
@Cowgirlsamurai wrote:I agree that JEJ IS Vader and in a perfect world he would've played him visually too at some point, but since we didn't get that... it makes sense that Anakin and Vader feel like two different people. GL could've written Anakin with a bit more Vader snark, but I think the pretty boy who loses his mom and his girl turned bitter, bad***, machine man is still pretty interesting. I know some people will hate the idea, but maybe if there were a movie about young Vader to show what happens to him that gives him the personality of OT Vader, things could be smoothed out a bit in regards to his character...
@Cowgirlsamurai

I don't hate the idea at all and Ankin is my second favorite after Kylo. But GL should have made a transition smoother, at least give Anakin the seeds of Vader-esque confidence, contempt and wit in ROTS. TFA nailed it with Kylo in far fewer scenes.
@vaderito

From the few episodes I've seen, TCW does a much better job building the character of "transition Anakin" than the PT did. And that's not a knock on Hayden, it's a knock on the PT dialogue.
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Re: The Reproductive Imperative

Post by Kessel on Sun 27 Aug 2017, 1:49 pm

@vaderito wrote:
@Cowgirlsamurai wrote:I agree that JEJ IS Vader and in a perfect world he would've played him visually too at some point, but since we didn't get that... it makes sense that Anakin and Vader feel like two different people. GL could've written Anakin with a bit more Vader snark, but I think the pretty boy who loses his mom and his girl turned bitter, bad***, machine man is still pretty interesting. I know some people will hate the idea, but maybe if there were a movie about young Vader to show what happens to him that gives him the personality of OT Vader, things could be smoothed out a bit in regards to his character...
@Cowgirlsamurai

I don't hate the idea at all and Ankin is my second favorite after Kylo. But GL should have made a transition smoother, at least give Anakin the seeds of Vader-esque confidence, contempt and wit in ROTS. TFA nailed it with Kylo in far fewer scenes.
@vaderito

Yes, exactly this. Ever since the PT, I've felt like there was a stark disconnect between Anakin and Vader. They seem like two characters with different personalities. It would have been nice to see more hints of Vader's developing personality quirks in Anakin. GL had some good ideas in general, when it came to Anakin, but the execution and details could have been better.

I haven't seen many episodes of TCW, so I can't comment on that Anakin, although I know people have said it's a better portrayal of him. I'll have to check it out some time.
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Re: The Reproductive Imperative

Post by vaderito on Sun 27 Aug 2017, 2:18 pm

@Kessel And from OB1 POV, Vader and Anakin were different people. Vader killed Anakin or whatever. So I guess that explain different personalities, that GL saw it that way, unlike Kylo/Ben whom JJ sees as one (which is the right way). Bloodline hinted that Luke also kept 2 different people view when it comes to his father like OB1
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Re: The Reproductive Imperative

Post by Airemyn on Sun 27 Aug 2017, 3:09 pm

I second the notion about TCW helping to build upon Anakin's character growth into Vader. The prequels became less annoying for me after watching all of TCW.

And you guys should really watch JEJ in Conan the Barbarian - he's an awesome villain. I'm sure GOT took a lot of inspiration from that film.
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Re: The Reproductive Imperative

Post by motherofpearl1 on Sun 27 Aug 2017, 5:38 pm

@Airemyn wrote:I second the notion about TCW helping to build upon Anakin's character growth into Vader. The prequels became less annoying for me after watching all of TCW.

And you guys should really watch JEJ in Conan the Barbarian - he's an awesome villain. I'm sure GOT took a lot of inspiration from that film.
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Heck yes.
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Re: The Reproductive Imperative

Post by Lily Snape on Mon 28 Aug 2017, 2:08 am

@motherofpearl1 wrote:
@Airemyn wrote:I second the notion about TCW helping to build upon Anakin's character growth into Vader. The prequels became less annoying for me after watching all of TCW.

And you guys should really watch JEJ in Conan the Barbarian - he's an awesome villain. I'm sure GOT took a lot of inspiration from that film.
@Airemyn

Heck yes.
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I've never seen him in Conan, but my husband does love to do his best James Earl Jones impression and say that line about crucifying someone on the Tree of Woe.  This usually occurs when someone is whining about taking out the trash or doing the dishes.  Smile
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Re: The Reproductive Imperative

Post by snufkin on Mon 28 Aug 2017, 2:24 am

I've yet to watch it, but pre-Star Wars he did a movie with Billy Dee Williams about a baseball team during Jim Crow. So technically speaking, Lando and Vader had worked together before Cloud City.
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Re: The Reproductive Imperative

Post by motherofpearl1 on Mon 28 Aug 2017, 3:26 am

Do you know I'm really sorry Lando isn't in the ST. Sad
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