The Potentially Non-Romantic Connection Between Kylo Ren and Rey

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Re: The Potentially Non-Romantic Connection Between Kylo Ren and Rey

Post by vaderito on Wed 11 Oct 2017, 6:23 pm

@Frolickingfizzgig

Refresh yo memory:

https://frolickingfizzgig.tumblr.com/post/140633462530/the-hero-the-villain-and-the-modern-fairytale

Also worth refreshing memory with

https://frolickingfizzgig.tumblr.com/post/140633462530/the-hero-the-villain-and-the-modern-fairytale

That was way before Rian said that Rey and Kylo represent adolescence and that they are 2 sides of the same protagonist. Back in time when antis tried to convince themselves that Kylo was not important cause Reywalker made him obsolete as a legacy character. Turns out:

It would not be unfair to suggest that Kylo Ren is currently the most important character in the Star Wars universe.

BTW, everyone, please explain how #RAWPOWAH could be only platonic? #RAWPOWAH = RAWPASSION
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Re: The Potentially Non-Romantic Connection Between Kylo Ren and Rey

Post by Tex on Wed 11 Oct 2017, 6:26 pm

@Snufkin

OMG Y'all are getting me so pumped for this epic s***! cheers
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Re: The Potentially Non-Romantic Connection Between Kylo Ren and Rey

Post by Darth Dingbat on Wed 11 Oct 2017, 6:26 pm

It's funny how the pieces fall into place when you think of it this way. Because not only is it the only way to make it truly a dynamic of equals, it's also the only way to tell the story so that Rey doesn't get overshadowed by the drama around her. And she won't, because everything that's about him is also about her.
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Re: The Potentially Non-Romantic Connection Between Kylo Ren and Rey

Post by vaderito on Wed 11 Oct 2017, 6:31 pm

@Darth Dingbat wrote:It's funny how the pieces fall into place when you think of it this way. Because not only is it the only way to make it truly a dynamic of equals, it's also the only way to tell the story so that Rey doesn't get overshadowed by the drama around her. And she won't, because everything that's about him is also about her.
@Darth Dingbat

Whoever came up with #RAWPOWAH plot device is a genius. It does exactly what you say, puts both of them in the center and is also entirely independent from lineage. He just happens to be a Skywalker (to fulfill Skywalker Saga requirement) but his #RAWPOWAH is not induced by it (or Anakin and Luke would have had it). She can be anything cause #RAWPOWAH is a new thing, not just FS or even vergence (Anakin). Something new. They can play around that any way they like making the story both his (aka Skywalker story) and hers.
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Re: The Potentially Non-Romantic Connection Between Kylo Ren and Rey

Post by snufkin on Wed 11 Oct 2017, 6:32 pm

@Tex - just wait until the Mike Zeroh video on this drops, ha ha ha!

@Darth Dingbat - it's really such an elegant solution, telling a story about the Force in a new and unique way with a romance that's both central but not just the usual sh*t people expect. It goes off into a completely new and exciting direction. It's either going to blow away the fans who are still too busy with debating how Rey should stay single because she's a role model or the ones who don't like it are going to HATE it because it is so.
weird.

Yeah would love to know who came up with this idea? Because we know that there are 5 writers so far who've had input - Arndt did the earliest drafts, then JJ and Kasdan (who you can't have seen his movies like Body Heat or the Bodyguard and not think he had a strong hand in the scenes of those two together), Rian Johnson and Carrie Fisher. And come to think of it, when it was getting more clear Trevorrow was on limited time, the writer/playwright they brought in was concurrently writing the BBC miniseries for His Dark Materials. Similiar themes there much? And while I like Safety Not Guaranteed, there's no way Trevorrow and his writing partner could pull of a follow up to story with these themes or type of relationship. They're not those guys.


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Re: The Potentially Non-Romantic Connection Between Kylo Ren and Rey

Post by Tex on Wed 11 Oct 2017, 6:33 pm

@Darth Dingbat wrote:It's funny how the pieces fall into place when you think of it this way. Because not only is it the only way to make it truly a dynamic of equals, it's also the only way to tell the story so that Rey doesn't get overshadowed by the drama around her. And she won't, because everything that's about him is also about her.
@Darth Dingbat


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Re: The Potentially Non-Romantic Connection Between Kylo Ren and Rey

Post by FrolickingFizzgig on Wed 11 Oct 2017, 6:40 pm

Meanwhile, antis and fanboys are still stumbling over their words and bending over backwards trying to prove that this-or-that scene was edited together and makes no sense and is only misdirection anyway1!!11!!! Also that's Luke's hand, not Kylo's and Kylo totes murders Leia in Act 1 and don't forget that rain scene from Rey's vision in TFA is the massacre at Luke's temple! Also, they're even more sure about Reylated than ever. Focusing on the same BS that they were wrong about to begin with and completely ignoring all real story implications. Best part is they think they're smart for figuring out "omg, it's a manip!?!!" What a time to be a SW fan. Laughing
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Re: The Potentially Non-Romantic Connection Between Kylo Ren and Rey

Post by snufkin on Wed 11 Oct 2017, 6:46 pm

Or the freakouts over his and hers Barbies? Like there's a pretty strong reason why they're paired together. Now all of this has me wondering about what their FoD cartoon will be about. Which you know both of them will voice and it'll be like the weirdest episode of Scooby Doo ever.

God you guys aren't kidding, the fandom hivemind are like a bunch of cats chasing after a laser pointer and meanwhile, the actual story is something else completely.
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Re: The Potentially Non-Romantic Connection Between Kylo Ren and Rey

Post by vaderito on Wed 11 Oct 2017, 6:52 pm

@FrolickingFizzgig wrote:Meanwhile, antis and fanboys are still stumbling over their words and bending over backwards trying to prove that this-or-that scene was edited together and makes no sense and is only misdirection anyway1!!11!!! Also that's Luke's hand, not Kylo's and Kylo totes murders Leia in Act 1 and don't forget that rain scene from Rey's vision in TFA is the massacre at Luke's temple! Also, they're even more sure about Reylated than ever. Focusing on the same BS that they were wrong about to begin with and completely ignoring all real story implications. Best part is they think they're smart for figuring out "omg, it's a manip!?!!" What a time to be a SW fan. Laughing
@FrolickingFizzgig

yeha, I'm actually puzzled how Denial works. You'd think that, at some point, someone will go "OK, nothing works. Nothing we predicted turned out true. Perhaps we should do things differently. Such as, instead of finding fault with the movie and film-makers, and accusing them of lies, deception, misdirection and Khaaaan, perhaps the fault is in - gasp - our s***y theories!" But no. They keep burying their heads deeper in the sand thinking that will magically change the narrative. That and hashtag attacks on Rian. lol! lol! lol! lol!
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Re: The Potentially Non-Romantic Connection Between Kylo Ren and Rey

Post by FrolickingFizzgig on Wed 11 Oct 2017, 6:55 pm

@vaderito wrote:
@FrolickingFizzgig wrote:Meanwhile, antis and fanboys are still stumbling over their words and bending over backwards trying to prove that this-or-that scene was edited together and makes no sense and is only misdirection anyway1!!11!!! Also that's Luke's hand, not Kylo's and Kylo totes murders Leia in Act 1 and don't forget that rain scene from Rey's vision in TFA is the massacre at Luke's temple! Also, they're even more sure about Reylated than ever. Focusing on the same BS that they were wrong about to begin with and completely ignoring all real story implications. Best part is they think they're smart for figuring out "omg, it's a manip!?!!" What a time to be a SW fan. Laughing
@FrolickingFizzgig

yeha, I'm actually puzzled how Denial works. You'd think that, at some point, someone will go "OK, nothing works. Nothing we predicted turned out true. Perhaps we should do things differently. Such as, instead of finding fault with the movie and film-makers, and accusing them of lies, deception, misdirection and Khaaaan, perhaps the fault is in - gasp - our s***y theories!" But no. They keep burying their heads deeper in the sand thinking that will magically change the narrative. That and hashtag attacks on Rian. lol! lol! lol! lol!
@vaderito
Denial works because they keep each other in Denialville. It's comfortable and they don't have to look outside the box. This forum would be Denialville central if, you know, everything wasn't going exactly as we have foreseen (to a degree of accuracy, of course). They don't want to leave Denialville so they traipse along pretending everything they don't like isn't real. It makes sense when you think about it. I would have trouble letting go of our little piece of fandom heaven too if we were wrong about literally everything. Laughing
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Re: The Potentially Non-Romantic Connection Between Kylo Ren and Rey

Post by vaderito on Wed 11 Oct 2017, 7:03 pm

@FrolickingFizzgig wrote:  
Denial works because they keep each other in Denialville. It's comfortable and they don't have to look outside the box. This forum would be Denialville central if, you know, everything wasn't going exactly as we have foreseen (to a degree of accuracy, of course). They don't want to leave Denialville so they traipse along pretending everything they don't like isn't real. It makes sense when you think about it. I would have trouble letting go of our little piece of fandom heaven too if we were wrong about literally everything. Laughing
@FrolickingFizzgig

I understand but 2 YEARS IN DENIAL PHASE AKA 1ST OUT OF 5 PHASES?????? That's crazy! That's not coping with grief (of being wrong) at all. They should have moved to at least Bargaining (3) or Depression (4) if not outright Acceptance (5) during that time. I understand they have support system that feeds denial but c'mon! It's too long.
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Re: The Potentially Non-Romantic Connection Between Kylo Ren and Rey

Post by FrolickingFizzgig on Wed 11 Oct 2017, 7:05 pm

So from my year and a half old meta:
That is the true nature of Rey and Ren’s dynamic. They are equals. Neither is truly dominant over the other. They share in both dominance and submission, one appearing to weaken just as the other grows stronger. They are two sides of the same coin, Yin and Yang, one dark with a little light, the other light with a little dark. They are the Beauty and the Beast, but neither is truly all Beauty or all “beast”. They share in moments of both, the balance of power between them seeming to rise and fall like the mechanisms of a great scale.
The world is not made of absolutes, just as the Beauty and the Beast is not a set-in-stone plot. It is a storytelling trope. The best writers will take what is loved about something old and make it new again. That is what is so fascinating about Rey and Kylo Ren’s dynamic. Rey is not entirely the Beauty, and Ren is not entirely the Beast. They are a retelling fit for the modern era. They are Yin and Yang, opposites that can only exist in perfect harmony by accepting and understanding that they are not all of one thing, that they can only be truly whole at peace with each other.
It's not totally accurate, but how could it be? I think I predicted it pretty well. Cool
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Re: The Potentially Non-Romantic Connection Between Kylo Ren and Rey

Post by Piper Maru on Wed 11 Oct 2017, 7:15 pm

@FrolickingFizzgig wrote:So from my year and a half old meta:
That is the true nature of Rey and Ren’s dynamic. They are equals. Neither is truly dominant over the other. They share in both dominance and submission, one appearing to weaken just as the other grows stronger. They are two sides of the same coin, Yin and Yang, one dark with a little light, the other light with a little dark. They are the Beauty and the Beast, but neither is truly all Beauty or all “beast”. They share in moments of both, the balance of power between them seeming to rise and fall like the mechanisms of a great scale.
The world is not made of absolutes, just as the Beauty and the Beast is not a set-in-stone plot. It is a storytelling trope. The best writers will take what is loved about something old and make it new again. That is what is so fascinating about Rey and Kylo Ren’s dynamic. Rey is not entirely the Beauty, and Ren is not entirely the Beast. They are a retelling fit for the modern era. They are Yin and Yang, opposites that can only exist in perfect harmony by accepting and understanding that they are not all of one thing, that they can only be truly whole at peace with each other.
It's not totally accurate, but how could it be? I think I predicted it pretty well. Cool
@FrolickingFizzgig

It's true. All of it.

It must suck for all the antis. Can you imagine finally realizing that you were wrong and spent two years bullying and talking down to people who actually understood the story and its themes?
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Re: The Potentially Non-Romantic Connection Between Kylo Ren and Rey

Post by Saracene on Wed 11 Oct 2017, 7:21 pm

I guess the only thing about Raw Power for me is that I see absolutely nothing in Rey’s TFA portrayal that suggests a girl who suspects all her life that there’s something off inside her (paraphrasing). When I heard that line in the trailer I kinda went, “eh really? Where did that come from?” Like, there could be a really great story in there no doubt, but the lack of character consistency that can happen when a new director takes over and comes up with new ideas always bugs me.
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Re: The Potentially Non-Romantic Connection Between Kylo Ren and Rey

Post by FrolickingFizzgig on Wed 11 Oct 2017, 7:28 pm

@Saracene wrote:I guess the only thing about Raw Power for me is that I see absolutely nothing in Rey’s TFA portrayal that suggests a girl who suspects all her life that there’s something off inside her (paraphrasing). When I heard that line in the trailer I kinda went, “eh really? Where did that come from?” Like, there could be a really great story in there no doubt, but the lack of character consistency that can happen when a new director takes over and comes up with new ideas always bugs me.
@Saracene
I mean, it did just awake, didn't it? She said she thought it was always there, but that it awoke more recently. And there are definitely hints in the later parts of the film that Rey isn't pure light side, IMO (Kylo does say that she's "stronger than she knows" like he might know and offers to train her). So yeah, I'm going to need to see the movie before I draw that conclusion because I don't see Rey as saying that she's always thought there was something off about her, but rather something awoke inside of her and she wants answers.
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Re: The Potentially Non-Romantic Connection Between Kylo Ren and Rey

Post by vaderito on Wed 11 Oct 2017, 7:32 pm

Also, Luke wouldn't fear #RAWPOWAH if it was only Light, right? So Rey/Ren are two halves of the Dark and the Light as in they have both Light and Dark, not that he is only Dark and she is only Light. Like we always thought.
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Re: The Potentially Non-Romantic Connection Between Kylo Ren and Rey

Post by IoJovi on Wed 11 Oct 2017, 7:33 pm

@vaderito wrote:
@FrolickingFizzgig wrote:  
Denial works because they keep each other in Denialville. It's comfortable and they don't have to look outside the box. This forum would be Denialville central if, you know, everything wasn't going exactly as we have foreseen (to a degree of accuracy, of course). They don't want to leave Denialville so they traipse along pretending everything they don't like isn't real. It makes sense when you think about it. I would have trouble letting go of our little piece of fandom heaven too if we were wrong about literally everything. Laughing
@FrolickingFizzgig

I understand but 2 YEARS IN DENIAL PHASE AKA 1ST OUT OF 5 PHASES?????? That's crazy! That's not coping with grief (of being wrong) at all. They should have moved to at least Bargaining (3) or Depression (4) if not outright Acceptance (5) during that time. I understand they have support system that feeds denial but c'mon! It's too long.
@vaderito

Watching the trailer and seeing remarks elsewhere about it feels like my experience with TFA all over again. It felt like I had seen a completely different movie compared to some quarters, and now the same thing is happening with the trailer. Kylo kills his mom, Rey is turning to the Darkside, it’s like come on. That isn’t AT ALL what is happening. I thought I’d finally have the satisfaction of seeing some quarters finally admit that they lost, but they’re just as much in denial as ever.

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Re: The Potentially Non-Romantic Connection Between Kylo Ren and Rey

Post by snufkin on Wed 11 Oct 2017, 7:35 pm

@Piper Maru - and a lot of super fans, who think that it just means something like whatever bad movie romance stereotype they can come up with. The concept of something on this level isn't even close to what they're discussing while patronizingly dismissing any discussion about the relationship as being anything more than silly fans fantasizing about a cheesy romance. They literally don't have the imagination or education to conceive of it but are happy to be patronizing to the fans who do.

I assumed the Awakening was kicked off by Kylo landing on Jakku, a place where her powers have been dormant, and being in proximity to her. Which gets further kick-started by Finn basically showing up to get her finally off the planet. Which is then in turn felt by Kylo and Snoke discuss as The Awakening. And whenever she and Kylo are in proximity to each other, they start to power up like crazy. That's Stephanie Zacharak's "thermin sonata" line about the two of them.
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Re: The Potentially Non-Romantic Connection Between Kylo Ren and Rey

Post by Saracene on Wed 11 Oct 2017, 7:39 pm

@FrolickingFizzgig wrote:
@Saracene wrote:I guess the only thing about Raw Power for me is that I see absolutely nothing in Rey’s TFA portrayal that suggests a girl who suspects all her life that there’s something off inside her (paraphrasing). When I heard that line in the trailer I kinda went, “eh really? Where did that come from?” Like, there could be a really great story in there no doubt, but the lack of character consistency that can happen when a new director takes over and comes up with new ideas always bugs me.
@Saracene
I mean, it did just awake, didn't it? She said she thought it was always there, but that it awoke more recently. And there are definitely hints in the later parts of the film that Rey isn't pure light side, IMO (Kylo does say that she's "stronger than she knows" like he might know and offers to train her). So yeah, I'm going to need to see the movie before I draw that conclusion because I don't see Rey as saying that she's always thought there was something off about her, but rather something awoke inside of her and she wants answers.
@FrolickingFizzgig

I still find it confusing. If you say that something inside you has always been there, then you must have always sensed it before it actually awoke? Like something dormant? Otherwise why would say that it's always been there? And if you find it troubling now, wouldn't you also find it troubling before?
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Re: The Potentially Non-Romantic Connection Between Kylo Ren and Rey

Post by Piper Maru on Wed 11 Oct 2017, 7:47 pm

@snufkin wrote:@Piper Maru - and a lot of super fans, who think that it just means something like whatever bad movie romance stereotype they can come up with. The concept of something on this level isn't even close to what they're discussing while patronizingly dismissing any discussion about the relationship as being anything more than silly fans fantasizing about a cheesy romance. They literally don't have the imagination or education to conceive of it but are happy to be patronizing to the fans who do.

I assumed the Awakening was kicked off by Kylo landing on Jakku, a place where her powers have been dormant, and being in proximity to her. Which gets further kick-started by Finn basically showing up to get her finally off the planet. Which is then in turn felt by Kylo and Snoke discuss as The Awakening. And whenever she and Kylo are in proximity to each other, they start to power up like crazy. That's Stephanie Zacharak's "thermin sonata" line about the two of them.
@snufkin

If you think about, all the things mysteriously left in Jakku -- the map, the Falcon -- brought Rey and Kylo together. The map was responsible to force Kylo to go there and be aware of Rey's existence (WHAT GIRL??? moment), while the Falcon was responsible to help Rey escape and make her cross paths with Han, who turns out to be Kylo's father.

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Re: The Potentially Non-Romantic Connection Between Kylo Ren and Rey

Post by vaderito on Wed 11 Oct 2017, 7:49 pm

@Saracene wrote:
@FrolickingFizzgig wrote:
@Saracene wrote:I guess the only thing about Raw Power for me is that I see absolutely nothing in Rey’s TFA portrayal that suggests a girl who suspects all her life that there’s something off inside her (paraphrasing). When I heard that line in the trailer I kinda went, “eh really? Where did that come from?” Like, there could be a really great story in there no doubt, but the lack of character consistency that can happen when a new director takes over and comes up with new ideas always bugs me.
@Saracene
I mean, it did just awake, didn't it? She said she thought it was always there, but that it awoke more recently. And there are definitely hints in the later parts of the film that Rey isn't pure light side, IMO (Kylo does say that she's "stronger than she knows" like he might know and offers to train her). So yeah, I'm going to need to see the movie before I draw that conclusion because I don't see Rey as saying that she's always thought there was something off about her, but rather something awoke inside of her and she wants answers.
@FrolickingFizzgig

I still find it confusing. If you say that something inside you has always been there, then you must have always sensed it before it actually awoke? Like something dormant? Otherwise why would say that it's always been there? And if you find it troubling now, wouldn't you also find it troubling before?
@Saracene

She was dreaming about the island in the ocean and then found out it existed. So maybe that prompted her to think that something has always been there and is now awakened. You know, like, I've been seeing this island for years and then I find out from some omgsofreakinghotwoo crazy Prince that I have some crazy power and I'm sent to this crazy island from my dreams, perhaps that thing has always been there? It makes sense to me, doesn't have to be over explained.
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Re: The Potentially Non-Romantic Connection Between Kylo Ren and Rey

Post by Piper Maru on Wed 11 Oct 2017, 7:51 pm

@Saracene wrote:
@FrolickingFizzgig wrote:
@Saracene wrote:I guess the only thing about Raw Power for me is that I see absolutely nothing in Rey’s TFA portrayal that suggests a girl who suspects all her life that there’s something off inside her (paraphrasing). When I heard that line in the trailer I kinda went, “eh really? Where did that come from?” Like, there could be a really great story in there no doubt, but the lack of character consistency that can happen when a new director takes over and comes up with new ideas always bugs me.
@Saracene
I mean, it did just awake, didn't it? She said she thought it was always there, but that it awoke more recently. And there are definitely hints in the later parts of the film that Rey isn't pure light side, IMO (Kylo does say that she's "stronger than she knows" like he might know and offers to train her). So yeah, I'm going to need to see the movie before I draw that conclusion because I don't see Rey as saying that she's always thought there was something off about her, but rather something awoke inside of her and she wants answers.
@FrolickingFizzgig

I still find it confusing. If you say that something inside you has always been there, then you must have always sensed it before it actually awoke? Like something dormant? Otherwise why would say that it's always been there? And if you find it troubling now, wouldn't you also find it troubling before?
@Saracene

"The Light... it's always been there, it will guide you."

When Maz says this to Rey, it's clear that Rey also knew about this "light", this feeling.. just like she knew her parents would never come back. But Rey was living in complete denial up until that point, and part of her journey was to accept hard truths and embrace her destiny. Considering that she only USES her powers when Kylo is around and near the end of the movie, it makes sense for her to try to understand them now.
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Re: The Potentially Non-Romantic Connection Between Kylo Ren and Rey

Post by snufkin on Wed 11 Oct 2017, 7:54 pm

@Piper Maru wrote:If you think about, all the things mysteriously left in Jakku -- the map, the Falcon -- brought Rey and Kylo together. The map was responsible to force Kylo to go there and be aware of Rey's existence (WHAT GIRL??? moment), while the Falcon was responsible to help Rey escape and make her cross paths with Han, who turns out to be Kylo's father.

@Piper Maru - I agree. The first movie is all a pretext about the droid/map because it's about Rey being discovered by Kylo and Rey discovering the powers within herself. And second movie, they're going to an island literally called Act Two to discover Luke Skywalker. But the point is for the two of them to meet, for her to further discover what's inside of her while discovering what happened to him, and for the two of them to discover their larger mutual shared destiny within the Force.
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Re: The Potentially Non-Romantic Connection Between Kylo Ren and Rey

Post by Kylo Men on Wed 11 Oct 2017, 8:42 pm

Re: Reywalkers, Antis and Denial ....

If you're right, do you find it strange that you always find yourself explaining what other people really meant?

Kylo Men
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Re: The Potentially Non-Romantic Connection Between Kylo Ren and Rey

Post by shii405 on Wed 11 Oct 2017, 8:49 pm

This rawpower thing is very interesting, you guys! Reminds me of Jean Grey in X-Men. But things did not end up good for her cause she didnt have anyone equal around her, no one knew what to do with her power. She couldn't find answers, ended up feeling alone and thus how she ended. 

I think i got through several mindset stages in this Reylo fandom.

1. First I thought... ohh they are the Virtue and Evil couple, soo beautiful but i bet they will end up tragically, but its fine.. we need something different in Star Wars universe.

2. Then comes the Grey Jedi theory and also the first teaser. I came with conclusion. Ohhhh maybe they are not about beauty and the beast then. They need to team up and join powers and start a new era... that would be awesome!

3. And now... ooh its about a pair of lost souls with raw powers that might have something to do with ancient Jedi history and might turn around the whole SW universe!! And it might potentially become an unconventional love story that has never existed before in the fiction world!!

But now I do not think they have the exact same raw powers. Or maybe they have? I just think they need to have different roles in the dynamic. What will they mean for each other? Does Kylo got his raw powers under control already? I have the impression that he is still learning and obviously he doesnt really know how to control his temper? Or maybe its something like that? Rey will teach him how to control his temper and Kylo teach her how to control her power. Ok that doesnt make sense lol.

I am just thinking there are different things they dont have but they will find that in each other and that how them searching answers together will complete them as Force users as well as human beings.
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