Virgin!Kylo: Yea or Nay?

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Is Kylo Ren a virgin?

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Post by BlackIsTheColor on Tue 29 Mar 2016, 8:42 am

@Little_Boots wrote:Someone on Tumblr pointed out a topic that I found very interesting.
When Rey looks at the old lady, I believe she was looking at the woman and thinking "this will be me some day". I don't think she was looking at her and seeing someone she recognized.
Meanwhile, right before this, Kylo Ren looks at San Tekka (a monk?) and says "look how old you've become".
Both Rey and Kylo are seeing their own self if nothing happens to them. If nothing happens to change the future.

It does make sense. Brilliant
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Post by Reynak on Tue 29 Mar 2016, 9:04 am

@FrolickingFizzgig wrote:The abuse is metaphorical. There is no way Ren was actually sexually abused in my opinion, not even if Snoke was a living, breathing person. It's too much for a movie like this (waaaaay too much). The metaphor is there and I don't think they're going beyond it.

No, it will never be adressed directly, but when you observe Driver's performance, the extreme tragedy and pain the character exudes, it's there, like a hidden but suggested deeper layer in the story. That's why talking about this movie is so satisfyig, because it can be read at a more superficial level but also at a deeper one. Both are there, both are true,but they suggest different things. The duel is a duel, it's violent but bloody, but also a metaphor for a sexual intercourse that obvioulsy never take place in the literal sense. It's the same with this, for many Snoke can be the evil wizard that cast a spell on Ben Solo,but many hints in the writing and directing, and also the actor's fascinating performance takes us to an even darker territory.

Many vieweres didn't get Ren's character because the idea of a boy who betrayed his family because he was lonely and felt abandoned makes him seem petty even if it's said he was manipulated by an evil mastermind. His drama pales in comparison to what Finn and Rey had to endure. Surprisingly enough he is the one that feels more tragic in the movie but those who think his motivations can't explain his treason,his descent into darkness and that emotional breakdown that he is on the brink of falling into most of the time, see him as an entitled brat who had it all and thought he was misunderstood at home. Same old story, they think, and in their as he is an emo wimp, whose problems could never begin to explain his betrayal of his family, killing people and murdering his own father.

If the character works it's because there's much more and the actor's performance and subtext, the deep layers, suggest that. The problem is that many viewers stay on the superficial leven and can't even understand how Ben Sole came to be Kylo Ren. He must be a psycho then, because his reasons to be so emotional and resented seem petty and absurd. Well, I understand them, because when I saw the movie I felt one thing and rationalized another. I felt for that tragic young man as much and even moree that for his fater, a character I have always loved, my favuorite SW character, in fact. This is what I felt but I couldn't abide with my feelings from a moral and rational point of view because the reasons we were given were not enough, not the superficial reasons.

So, I tried to look for something else, like a goal (finishing what his grandfather started) which is not bad whereas his methods are horrible. Not even this was enought to explain Kylo/Ben. I don't feel empathy towards him because he is pretty, that's absurd,nothing like that has ever happened to me and I am sure it has never happened to most of you either. We empathise because the direction, the writing and the actor's performance leads us there.

What might explain what became of Ben Solo if he wasn't born a psychopath? Grooming from an early age, twisted indoctrination when he was too young to pretect himself from that, warping of his spiritual side, which is huge in him as he is FS,praying on his emotional vulnerability and I could go on and on, the kind of things that explain sects, fanatic and extreme religious organizations, well, all these horrifying things that really belong in the dark side.

As someone has said before, Darth Vader was a metaphor of the worst nighmare for a child, but Kylo embodies the worst nightmare for a parent, that your son may fall into something so horrible that you would have to disown him as yours.

There's not need for a sexual abuse to be added to the mix, but the way Ben's fall is worded implies that, SEDUCED. The boy was seduced and only another seduction (the Light in Rey) will be able to bring him back. This hints at sexual abuse and implies the only solution for him would be the healing power of love and a healthy relationship with a woman who cares about him.

When you add all the rest we have talked about in this thread, it becomes clearer and it explains it all. This boy can't come back because he is tainted and there'd be no hope for him to be accepted even if he tried. This is enough to explain why he can't break the chains that link him to Snoke. Perhaps he fell because he killed in the past, or was framed for someone else's kill and then the way back was cut for ever. This would be enough to explain why he thinks he belongs in the Dark although he hates it. He also thinks he deserves all this pain and suffering because he is bad, evil, his soul intrinsically rotten. "Too much Vader in him", Han said. Well, his son doesn't have a better opinion of himself.

Although there are other reasons that could explain where Kylo/Ben stands now, his attitude, the way he carries himself, how he reacts in front of a pretty girl, all this screams of celibacy, isolation and unnatural restraint, thus the virgin vibe. If he is not a literal virgin, he is definitely celibate and a functional virgin who never had a sexul relationship as most of us envision them. His experience with sex suggests trauma, fear and avoidance. Rey changed this, which explains why he comes too close to her for comfort and the way he looks at her, which may seem creepy to some but comes from inexperience, wonder and immaturity.
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Post by Reynak on Tue 29 Mar 2016, 9:10 am

@BlackIsTheColor wrote:
@Little_Boots wrote:Someone on Tumblr pointed out a topic that I found very interesting.
When Rey looks at the old lady, I believe she was looking at the woman and thinking "this will be me some day". I don't think she was looking at her and seeing someone she recognized.
Meanwhile, right before this, Kylo Ren looks at San Tekka (a monk?) and says "look how old you've become".
Both Rey and Kylo are seeing their own self if nothing happens to them. If nothing happens to change the future.

It does make sense. Brilliant

@Little_Boots

That was me, LOL. I am reyloeyesofmist on tumblr, and also eyesofmist, because I became a Reylo fan recently, like everyone else, of course. I already had another blog I didn't want to flood with Reylo fascination.

http://reyloeyesofmist.tumblr.com/

This is the link to the post. I  have already added it to our metas section:

http://reyloeyesofmist.tumblr.com/post/141893372174/the-future-that-awaits-rey-and-ren
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Post by guardienne on Tue 29 Mar 2016, 9:16 am

@reynak

i loved your post.

i'm interested in the seduction aspect. the way i see seduction is that i preys on weakness, it's a manipulation. i would hope that rey doesn't manipulate him, i would hope that he doesn't have to be seduced to join either side, that it's a conscious decision.

i think the aspect of him that you describe with functional virginity, i think that is what i was trying to get at.
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Post by Little_Boots on Tue 29 Mar 2016, 9:20 am

@Reynak wrote:
@BlackIsTheColor wrote:
@Little_Boots wrote:Someone on Tumblr pointed out a topic that I found very interesting.
When Rey looks at the old lady, I believe she was looking at the woman and thinking "this will be me some day". I don't think she was looking at her and seeing someone she recognized.
Meanwhile, right before this, Kylo Ren looks at San Tekka (a monk?) and says "look how old you've become".
Both Rey and Kylo are seeing their own self if nothing happens to them. If nothing happens to change the future.

It does make sense. Brilliant

@Little_Boots

That was me, LOL. I am reyloeyesofmist on tumblr, and also eyesofmist, because I became a Reylo fan recently, like everyone else, of course. I already had another blog I didn't want to flood with Reylo fascination.

http://reyloeyesofmist.tumblr.com/

This is the link to the post. I  have already added it to our metas section:

http://reyloeyesofmist.tumblr.com/post/141893372174/the-future-that-awaits-rey-and-ren
Awesome lol, you should write a big meta on it. We need more metas. I would write some myself but I'm rubbish at writing :[
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Post by Reynak on Tue 29 Mar 2016, 9:31 am

@guardienne wrote:@reynak

i loved your post.

i'm interested in the seduction aspect. the way i see seduction is that i preys on weakness, it's a manipulation. i would hope that rey doesn't manipulate him, i would hope that he doesn't have to be seduced to join either side, that it's a conscious decision.

i think the aspect of him that you describe with functional virginity, i think that is what i was trying to get at.

When I talk about seduction hinting at sexual abuse of some sort, this doesn't mean we will ever see that spelled out on screen by any means, but I don't think it's even necessary. The way sects, fanatic organizations and religious zealots gain adepts too often contains some sort of sexual as well as mental manipulation and the film is dary enough to hint at that by using the word seduction in relation to Kylo,as well as other hints that have been covered on this thread.

This approach belongs in the subtext and will always be there,because some things needn't be said explicitly in a work or art, which a good movie becomes when it is good enough. The better a film is , the more layered and symbolic it tends to be.

We will never see or hear about what Kylo's grooming consisted of, but just as we can imagine Rey had to fight against certain dangers if she lived so alone, we can guess what kind of things that seduction from Snoke could have consisted of. The actors' body language is enough (Rey responding so agressively to touch, Ren's extreme restraint) and we also have the hints suggesting the same. Nothing more explicit is necessary or desirable, but they could have avoided that terrain completey and they didn't. I think there are reasons to believe the subtext is there and is not just an unconscious reaction from some vieweres, this reaction was induced by the things we have commented here.

Why do you think we have Ben subdued by an old creeper (Snoke) and Rey by another one (Unkar Plutt)?
Snoke was going to be a woman and they changed their mind. So we'd have had a female controlling Ren and a male controlling Rey. Perhaps they changed that because too many people's minds would have gone places and it would have looked too obvious on screen, especially if they had gone for a cougar type of woman with Ren. They went for something more subtle and I think this was a better call. Subtlety is always best although you know it will fly over many people's heads.

TFA is like a fairy tale and fairy tales were meant to teach children to protect themselves from danger, one of these potential but very real dangers were old(or young) creeps, pervs or child murderers. Think of Hansel & Gretel and how they were lured by the witch because they were hungry but the witch's intentions were nefarious. Those two (Snole and Unkar Plutt) remind me of characters like that witch.

Fairy tales don't addres certain things directly but in a way that is palatable for children. If you make them too palatable the original idea, which was to teach children how to protect themselves is diluted and unrecognizable. But Disney movies have never been tame, Scar is terrfying, Snowhite's step mother is also terrifying. There are many more examples.

The subtext present in fairy tales is a fascinating topic, @FrolickingFizzgig could talk about this much better than me, but analysing apparently innocent fairy tales is an endless task, they are symbolic and layered to the highest degree.


Last edited by Reynak on Tue 29 Mar 2016, 10:19 am; edited 2 times in total
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Post by CienaRee on Tue 29 Mar 2016, 10:00 am

Reynaldo,your posts are amazing.You make some great points especially about how people misinterpret Kylo's character.Sadly I've seen many Han/Leia fans share the same opinion.They can't believe Kylo would turn to the dark side when he had parents like them while Rey who was left to revive all on her own hasn't fallen to the Dark side(they forget this is still the first movie though).I've even seen Kylo being compared to Luke and Leia loosing their uncle and aunt/pathetic but they didn't ended up on the Dark side which makes Kylo a spoiler brat or something.But people are different some break,some manage not to but just because they break doesn't mean they shouldn't have a chance to redeem themselves and rebuild their lives again.
I have to say I think that's why I like the idea that Rey is related to Snoke.It would be ironic if Rey ends up helping him the Light again when Snoke was the one who twisted him for so many years.It would be a battle between father/grandfather vs daughter/granddaughter for Ben Solo's would which would be so much more interesting to watch then good cousin vs evil cousin.

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Post by Darth Dingbat on Tue 29 Mar 2016, 10:01 am

Very interesting thoughts here.

Seduction is certainly a loaded word, and a seducer can either be a manipulator or someone who simply seduces by attracting. (Don't forget that "seduce" is also an old synonym for "to have sex with", without necessarily having the more common undertones of manipulation.) It would actually be a pretty awful word to use about the victim of child abuse, as it implies that the victim shares part of the blame by falling for it, by allowing himself to be seduced.

It occurs to me that suppressing a growing young person's sexuality (even if "only" through shaming, guilt-tripping, instilling them with a fear of sin and weakness, etc.) and controlling them to the point that they're robbed of all chance of leading a normal life is a form of abuse in itself. So I definitely don't think Snoke's abuse would have had to be in any way literal for it to destroy Ren's relationship with his physical self.

Whatever the backstory, I can't escape the overwhelming sensation that it's very, very sad. I didn't go to see TFA expecting to look for excuses for the villain, but even after the first time (when my sentiments towards Reylo were still "WTF was that") I felt haunted by the fact that Ren came across as someone who was stuck in a living death though he so badly yearned to come back to life (the Light), and I just wanted to know why, WHY was he stuck in that misery to begin with. After reading online discussions I couldn't understand how anyone would gleefully expect the guy to get darker and more villainous, when his lot in life was so incredibly sad. Already before reading any excellent metas I knew that if this trilogy was going to be about witnessing this young man fall deeper into darkness and misery, it would be so depressing that I would have to stop watching.

I never imagined I could be this anxious for a fictional character to be saved.
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Post by CienaRee on Tue 29 Mar 2016, 10:07 am

I forgot to add,you points out another great parallel between Kylo and Rey which is that both has to deal with creeps tying to take advantage of them from childhood .Ben with Snoke and Rey with Unkar.It's interesting that in the earlier concepts Rey(then Kira) was suppose to be working for a former Republic pilot who was most likely a father figure for her but they removed him later and Snoke also wasn't suppose to exist at first.I'm actually glad they changed him to a male instead because otherwise the subtext would have been even creeper than it could already possibly be.Unkar's interest in Rey was made to be more disturbing in the novelization which was removed in the movie so I'm not surprised they changed their minds about a female Snoke.

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Post by Reynak on Tue 29 Mar 2016, 10:16 am

Darth Dingleberry wrote:Very interesting thoughts here.

Seduction is certainly a loaded word, and a seducer can either be a manipulator or someone who simply seduces by attracting. (Don't forget that "seduce" is also an old synonym for "to have sex with", without necessarily having the more common undertones of manipulation.) It would actually be a pretty awful word to use about the victim of child abuse, as it implies that the victim shares part of the blame by falling for it, by allowing himself to be seduced.

It occurs to me that suppressing a growing young person's sexuality (even if "only" through shaming, guilt-tripping, instilling them with a fear of sin and weakness, etc.) and controlling them to the point that they're robbed of all chance of leading a normal life is a form of abuse in itself. So I definitely don't think Snoke's abuse would have had to be in any way literal for it to destroy Ren's relationship with his physical self.

Whatever the backstory, I can't escape the overwhelming sensation that it's very, very sad. I didn't go to see TFA expecting to look for excuses for the villain, but even after the first time (when my sentiments towards Reylo were still "WTF was that") I felt haunted by the fact that Ren came across as someone who was stuck in a living death though he so badly yearned to come back to life (the Light), and I just wanted to know why, WHY was he stuck in that misery to begin with. After reading online discussions I couldn't understand how anyone would gleefully expect the guy to get darker and more villainous, when his lot in life was so incredibly sad. Already before reading any excellent metas I knew that if this trilogy was going to be about witnessing this young man fall deeper into darkness and misery, it would be so depressing that I would have to stop watching.

I never imagined I could be this anxious for a fictional character to be saved.

I love this post. There are wonderful posts on this thread and this is one of them. For me it's very special because here you have put into words feelings and impression I absolutely share.
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Post by SoloSideCousin on Tue 29 Mar 2016, 11:15 am

@guardienne wrote:i know he wasn't sexually abused, just like i know he doesn't sexually abuse rey... but it's also there, if that makes any sense.

he's either scared of having his intimacy violated (snoke can sense his thoughts) - mentally and physically. it's sort of an uneasy mixture.

I agree with this post, and your one before it, and what you are saying makes sense to me. The films are never ever ever going to directly confirm that Kylo was sexually abused. (Physically abused is another thing. I would not be surprised to see Kylo get some mental version of "the lightning" in Episode VIII, since Snoke seems physically weak but mentally strong in his powers. In fact, I would be shocked if he had never had to undergo some kind of physical torture under Snoke's orders for punishment and to "darken him up". Remember all that "a lesson is in order" business when Rey resisted Kylo. The DS does seem to be all about creating and mining suffering). But back to the sexual abuse aspect, the production/LF/Disney obviously doesn't want the drama, and such a thing is not the focus of the films anyway. They are not making Precious here. On the other hand, there are many details in the film that can be used support a valid argument that it actually happened to the character sometime in the forever unseen past. The covering of every inch of his body in protective, convoluted layers. His fear *and shame* of being seen by anyone who he does not feel "safe" with. The way that he flinches a little from Han's touch, as pointed out by @Reynak. The point referenced by @Sylvia Snow that the production said Snoke used to be normal looking and the indications that he may have been physically around young Ben. Ren's state of supplication and dependency to such a point that he seems like a boy in the face of Snoke and like @Sylvia Snow pointed out, Snoke literally blocks the light from Ren in his higher position. The way Snoke has two beautiful men fight in front of him like a gross old lech. The way Ren seems simultaneously so thoroughly damaged yet can still look at Rey's mouth with a non-lascivious but rather beautiful sense of attraction and wonder.

I think "it's also there", to quote you, in that it, actual sexual abuse, might exist in the direction JJ gave to Adam Driver on how to play a scene and/or in the secret, untold backstory that JJ, Kasdan and Driver created for the character. It makes me think of something @Reynak said in one of her brilliant posts on this subject. She posed the question of whether Kylo was shuddering after metaphorical sexual moments in the movie because he has been placed in the role of the maiden losing her/his virginity or if there's more to it than that, namely, that he is shuddering not only because this is his first experience with a partner he actually wants, but also because he has had prior traumatizing experience with sex before. The way Adam plays that moment and several others can be used to support either argument.

Given all the subtext pointing to a sexual abuse metaphor, it is quite possible that Adam Driver would approach the character in such a way that he would believe in his own actor's headcanon, but course would never outright say, that Kylo/Ben had been sexually abused by either Snoke or his minions at some time in the past. That aspect would not be an actual part of the text of the story, but that "hidden knowledge" would bleed through quite a bit and create a strong subtext because every decision Driver made would be informed by that headcanon. Considering how strong the child predator vibes are in this movie, I would not be surprised if some kind of thought process like that was going on.

This makes me think of several "making of" documentaries that I have seen. I remember one where Omar Sharif was told by David Lean to play the moment when Dr. Zhivago sees Bolshevik forces violently approaching his neighborhood like he was reaching sexual climax because Lean wanted a certain effect. I also think I once mentioned how the director of Ben-Hur told the actor playing Ben-Hur's Roman friend, (Massala I think), to play a scene where they greet each other with the headcanon that he and Ben-Hur had had a sexual relationship in the past, but the same direction was *not* given to Charlton Heston, nor did Heston know about the direction to the other actor, thus creating a certain dynamic. I wonder about the differences in direction that JJ gave to Adam as opposed to Daisy in the cliffside scene. I would not be surprised if Adam got all kinds of interesting separate direction as I imagine he may be one of the few people on set who actually is privy to what his character is really about ... and I bet JJ and Rian haven't even given him the whole story yet.
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Post by SoloSideCousin on Tue 29 Mar 2016, 11:26 am

@Reynak wrote:
@FrolickingFizzgig wrote:The abuse is metaphorical. There is no way Ren was actually sexually abused in my opinion, not even if Snoke was a living, breathing person. It's too much for a movie like this (waaaaay too much). The metaphor is there and I don't think they're going beyond it.

No, it will never be adressed directly, but when you observe Driver's performance, the extreme tragedy and pain the character exudes, it's there, like a hidden but suggested deeper layer in the story. That's why talking about this movie is so satisfyig, because it can be read at a more superficial level but also at a deeper one. Both are there, both are true,but they suggest different things. The duel is a duel, it's violent but bloody, but also a metaphor for a sexual intercourse that obvioulsy never take place in the literal sense. It's the same with this, for many Snoke can be the evil wizard that cast a spell on Ben Solo,but many hints in the writing and directing, and also the actor's fascinating performance takes us to an even darker territory.

Many vieweres didn't get Ren's character because the idea of a boy who betrayed his family because he was lonely and felt abandoned  makes him seem petty even if it's said he was manipulated by an evil mastermind. His drama pales in comparison to what Finn and Rey had to endure. Surprisingly enough he is the one that feels more tragic in the movie but those who think his motivations can't explain his treason,his descent into darkness and that emotional breakdown that he is on the brink of falling into most of the time, see him as an entitled brat who had it all and thought he was misunderstood at home. Same old story, they think, and in their as he is an emo wimp, whose problems could never begin to explain his betrayal of his family, killing people and murdering his own father.

If the character works it's because there's much more and the actor's performance and subtext, the deep layers, suggest that.
The problem is that many viewers stay on the superficial leven and can't even understand how Ben Sole came to be Kylo Ren. He must be a psycho then, because his reasons to be so emotional and resented seem petty and absurd. Well, I understand them, because when I saw the movie I felt one thing and rationalized another. I felt for that tragic young man as much and even moree that for his fater, a character I have always loved, my favuorite SW character, in fact. This is what I felt but I couldn't abide with my feelings from a moral and rational point of view because the reasons we were given were not enough, not the superficial reasons.

So, I tried to look for something else, like a goal (finishing what his grandfather started) which is not bad whereas his methods are horrible. Not even this was enought to explain Kylo/Ben. I don't feel empathy towards him because he is pretty, that's absurd,nothing like that has ever  happened to me and I am sure it has never happened to most of you either. We empathise because the direction, the writing and the actor's performance leads us there.

What might explain what became of Ben Solo if he wasn't born a psychopath? Grooming from an early age, twisted indoctrination when he was too young to pretect himself from that, warping of his spiritual side, which is huge in him as he is FS,praying on his emotional vulnerability and I could go on and on, the kind of things that explain sects, fanatic and extreme religious organizations, well, all these horrifying things that really belong in the dark side.


As someone has said before, Darth Vader was a metaphor of the worst nighmare for a child, but Kylo embodies the worst nightmare for a parent, that your son may fall into something so horrible that you would have to disown him as yours.

There's not need for a sexual abuse to be added to the mix, but the way Ben's fall is worded implies that, SEDUCED. The boy was seduced and only another seduction (the Light in Rey) will be able to bring him back. This hints at sexual abuse and implies the only solution for him would be the healing power of love and a healthy relationship with a woman who cares about him.


When you add all the rest we have talked about in this thread, it becomes clearer and it explains it all. This boy can't come back because he is tainted and there'd be no hope for him to be accepted even if he tried. This is enough to explain why he can't break the chains that link him to Snoke. Perhaps he fell because he killed in the past, or was framed for someone else's kill and then the way back was cut for ever. This would be enough to explain why he thinks he belongs in the Dark although he hates it. He also thinks he deserves all this pain and suffering because he is bad, evil, his soul intrinsically rotten. "Too much Vader in him", Han said. Well, his son doesn't have a better opinion of himself.

Although there are other reasons that could explain where Kylo/Ben stands now, his attitude, the way he carries himself, how he reacts in front of a pretty girl, all this screams of celibacy, isolation and unnatural restraint, thus the virgin vibe. If he is not a literal virgin, he is definitely celibate and a functional virgin who never had a sexul relationship as most of us envision them. His experience with sex suggests trauma, fear and avoidance. Rey changed this, which explains why he comes too close to her for comfort and the way he looks at her, which may seem creepy to some but comes from inexperience, wonder and immaturity.

OMG @Reynak! This is literally one of the best posts I have ever read on not just the character of Kylo Ren, but just posts period!!! I could bold the whole thing! I wish I could double your "likes"!!! But for now I will only bold what hit me the hardest.



@Reynak: "When I talk about seduction hinting at sexual abuse of some sort, this doesn't mean we will ever see that spelled out on screen by any means, but I don't think it's even necessary. The way sects, fanatic organizations and religious zealots gain adepts too often contains some sort of sexual as well as mental manipulation and the film is dary enough to hint at that by using the word seduction in relation to Kylo,as well as other hints that have been covered on this thread.

This approach belongs in the subtext and will always be there,because some things needn't be said explicitly in a work or art, which a good movie becomes when it is good enough. The better a film is , the more layered and symbolic it tends to be.

We will never see or hear about what Kylo's grooming consisted of, but just as we can imagine Rey had to fight against certain dangers if she lived so alone, we can guess what kind of things that seduction from Snoke could have consisted of. The actors' body language is enough (Rey responding so agressively to touch, Ren's extreme restraint) and we also have the hints suggesting the same. Nothing more explicit is necessary or desirable, but they could have avoided that terrain completey and they didn't. I think there are reasons to believe the subtext is there and is not just an unconscious reaction from some vieweres, this reaction was induced by the things we have commented here.

Why do you think we have Ben subdued by an old creeper (Snoke) and Rey by another one (Unkar Plutt)?
Snoke was going to be a woman and they changed their mind. So we'd have had a female controlling Ren and a male controlling Rey. Perhaps they changed that because too many people's minds would have gone places and it would have looked too obvious on screen, especially if they had gone for a cougar type of woman with Ren. They went for something more subtle and I think this was a better call. Subtlety is always best although you know it will fly over many people's head
s.

TFA is like a fairy tale and fairy tales were meant to teach children to protect themselves from danger, one of these potential but very real dangers were old(or young) creeps, pervs or child murderers. Think of Hansel & Gretel and how they were lured by the witch because they were hungry but the witch's intentions were nefarious. Those two (Snole and Unkar Plutt) remind me of characters like that witch.

Fairy tales don't addres certain things directly but in a way that is palatable for children. If you make them too palatable the original idea, which was to teach children how to protect themselves is diluted and unrecognizable. But Disney movies have never been tame, Scar is terrfying, Snowhite's step mother is also terrifying. There are many more examples.

The subtext present in fairy tales is a fascinating topic, @FrolickingFizzgig could talk about this much better than me, but analysing apparently innocent fairy tales is an endless task, they are symbolic and layered to the highest degree."

OMG!!! Again!!! So outstanding! Such beautiful work!!! This is meta!!! This is meta!!! The way you tie in the choices, the subtext, the acting, the cautionary purpose of fairy tales, Disney's actual "not-so-Disney-image" reality is just beyond brilliant. Your amazing thoughts and arguments in this thread need to be brought together and posted prominently!!!! Amazing analysis!!!!
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Post by vaderito on Tue 29 Mar 2016, 11:47 am

@Reynak

Many vieweres didn't get Ren's character because the idea of a boy who betrayed his family because he was lonely and felt abandoned makes him seem petty even if it's said he was manipulated by an evil mastermind. His drama pales in comparison to what Finn and Rey had to endure.

That's because Rey and Finn are given unnaturally sunny, highly moral, optimistic, lucky-go-happy (in his case) personalities that are completely insincere and wrong for their background. That decision was purely driven by plot that required to make heroes as likable as possible within first 3 seconds of meeting them, so they sacrificed interesting characterization. In short, they were written to be instantly liked, not deep or intriguing.

They poured their hearts into Ren's characterization which is not only on the money for his background but also hints at much deeper subtext if you know where to look (people in this thread obviously do). However, that also makes him less sympathetic because why didn't he turn so sunny and "it's the right thing to do" when he had loving heroic parents? In short, they gave one character a task of lifting all the heavy character weight, while others just turn on their natural charm and cuteness, and that's flying over some people's heads.

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Post by SoloSideCousin on Tue 29 Mar 2016, 11:48 am

@CienaRee wrote:Reynaldo,your posts are amazing.You make some great points especially about how people misinterpret Kylo's character.Sadly I've seen many Han/Leia fans share the same opinion.They can't believe Kylo would turn to the dark side when he had parents like them while Rey who was left to revive all on her own hasn't fallen to the Dark side(they forget this is still the first movie though).I've even seen Kylo being compared to Luke and Leia loosing their uncle and aunt/pathetic but they didn't ended up on the Dark side which makes Kylo a spoiler brat or something.But  people are different some break,some manage not to but just because they break doesn't mean they shouldn't have a chance to redeem themselves and rebuild their lives again.
I have to say I think that's why I like the idea that Rey is related to Snoke.It would be ironic if Rey ends up helping him the Light again when Snoke was the one who twisted him for so many years.It would be a battle between father/grandfather vs daughter/granddaughter for Ben Solo's would which would be so much more interesting to watch then good cousin vs evil cousin.

I agree so much, and on the bolded, holy s***! That would be beyond epic!!! Especially now that we have had this fantastic discussion in this virginity thread (Thank you @AnneNeville and @vaderito), the stakes for Ben's soul seem even higher, and to have his healer have to fight her own blood, her own family (what she has wanted forever) would be incredible! Talk about "what you seek is front of you!"  She would forsake her own family for the potential of creating the new one with Ben/Kylo. Brilliant!
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Post by vaderito on Tue 29 Mar 2016, 12:01 pm

I think it was @Ohtze who's said in her mini meta or reply on her site that Ben is the victim of ROTJ's misguided happy ending. They had to make everyone miserable in order to have a story in ST. or something.
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Post by SoloSideCousin on Tue 29 Mar 2016, 12:02 pm

@vaderito wrote:@Reynak

Many vieweres didn't get Ren's character because the idea of a boy who betrayed his family because he was lonely and felt abandoned  makes him seem petty even if it's said he was manipulated by an evil mastermind. His drama pales in comparison to what Finn and Rey had to endure.

That's because Rey and Finn are given unnaturally sunny, highly moral, optimistic, lucky-go-happy (in his case) personalities that are completely insincere and wrong for their background. That decision was purely driven by plot that required to make heroes as likable as possible within first 3 seconds of meeting them, so they sacrificed interesting characterization. In short, they were written to be instantly liked, not deep or intriguing.

They poured their hearts into Ren's characterization which is not only on the money for his background but also hints at much deeper subtext if you know where to look (people in this thread obviously do). However, that also makes him less sympathetic because why didn't he turn so sunny and "it's the right thing to do" when he had loving heroic parents? In short, they gave one character a task of lifting all the heavy character weight, while others just turn on their natural charm and cuteness, and that's flying over some people's heads.



Every bit of this is so true.  I believe that Finn's characterization in particular is ridiculously sunny.  (He should have been more like Peeta from Hunger Games or at least showing some moral confusion once in a while).  At least Rey "seems" defensive a few times and dark at times with Ren, but still much more should have been done with her.

I completely agree that Ren is their everything, their baby.  He literally carries the weight for everyone else.  That's why they pursued Driver like they did.  They desperately needed an actor who could not only play Ren and carry his weight, but who would also be okay with having part of the audience hate his character's guts and sometimes probably with some particularly dense people, hate his personal guts too.  IMO, not a lot of not-yet-established American actors would want to deal with that latter hate.  But Driver, though on a smaller scale, had already jumped that hurdle with Adam Sackler and so he could handle it.
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Post by Darth Dingbat on Tue 29 Mar 2016, 12:08 pm

@vaderito wrote:@Reynak

Many vieweres didn't get Ren's character because the idea of a boy who betrayed his family because he was lonely and felt abandoned  makes him seem petty even if it's said he was manipulated by an evil mastermind. His drama pales in comparison to what Finn and Rey had to endure.

That's because Rey and Finn are given unnaturally sunny, highly moral, optimistic, lucky-go-happy (in his case) personalities that are completely insincere and wrong for their background. That decision was purely driven by plot that required to make heroes as likable as possible within first 3 seconds of meeting them, so they sacrificed interesting characterization. In short, they were written to be instantly liked, not deep or intriguing.

They poured their hearts into Ren's characterization which is not only on the money for his background but also hints at much deeper subtext if you know where to look (people in this thread obviously do). However, that also makes him less sympathetic because why didn't he turn so sunny and "it's the right thing to do" when he had loving heroic parents? In short, they gave one character a task of lifting all the heavy character weight, while others just turn on their natural charm and cuteness, and that's flying over some people's heads.


Yes. Though Finn's case, I think, is slightly different - he was kidnapped from his family, which is awful enough, but the young Stormtroopers (Stormtrooplings?) probably aren't actively neglected and as Jakku was supposed to be Finn's first experience of battle, though he's already past twenty, they're definitely not child soldiers either.

Even so, he was unnaturally happy-go-lucky, but Rey's characterisation was even more strange. Rey was abandoned, neglected and straight up abused as a child. Not hopefully abused in "that" way, but she was starved, put into dangerous slave labour and mentally abused by growing up in isolation and being forced to worry about survival every day, all alone. I'd guess she had to worry about threats of violence as well. Her disposition is definitely unnaturally sunny, moral, optimistic and trusting. I hate the way so many people are reading this as a sign of inherent goodness in the character. A child can be as inherently good-natured as humanly possible, but I guarantee you her sunny personality isn't likely to emerge unscathed if she goes through about 15 years of that kind of life.
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Post by SoloSideCousin on Tue 29 Mar 2016, 12:13 pm

@vaderito wrote:I think it was @Ohtze who's said in her mini meta or reply on her site that Ben is the victim of ROTJ's misguided happy ending. They had to make everyone miserable in order to have a story in ST. or something.

YES!!!! It's so funny that you mention this because I was just thinking about how Gary Kurtz left ROTJ when GL decided to make it into Ewok-marketing-fest.

Under the original ROTJ by Kasdan, it was supposed to be called Revenge of the Jedi.  I think both Han and Lando were supposed to die, and Luke was supposed to go into exile alone like Clint Eastwood in a spaghetti western because the darkness he had been exposed to might have compromised him to some level (I have also heard of a version where he went into exile with Vader).  It was supposed to be bittersweet and ambiguous.  Well now GL is gone, but Kasdan is still here. Guess who's gonna get the last word.

I actually remember seeing an interview many years ago where Kasdan was talking about how ROTJ was supposed to go differently.  He even had a Revenge of the Jedi poster up in his office, saying that it was only one of like 7 that were made.  He seemed irritated at the time over how things had gone down.

Kylo is the fix to all that Ewok cutesyness.  Too bad GL didn't just follow the tone and narrative implied by ESB.  Kylo wouldn't have to carry the galaxy 32 years later.
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Post by Reynak on Tue 29 Mar 2016, 12:49 pm

@SoloSideCousin wrote:
@guardienne wrote:i know he wasn't sexually abused, just like i know he doesn't sexually abuse rey... but it's also there, if that makes any sense.

he's either scared of having his intimacy violated (snoke can sense his thoughts) - mentally and physically. it's sort of an uneasy mixture.

I agree with this post, and your one before it, and what you are saying makes sense to me.  The films are never ever ever going to directly confirm that Kylo was sexually abused. (Physically abused is another thing.  I would not be surprised to see Kylo get some mental version of "the lightning" in Episode VIII, since Snoke seems physically weak but mentally strong in his powers.  In fact, I would be shocked if he had never had to undergo some kind of physical torture under Snoke's orders for punishment and to "darken him up".  Remember all that "a lesson is in order" business when Rey resisted Kylo.  The DS does seem to be all about creating and mining suffering).  But back to the sexual abuse aspect, the production/LF/Disney obviously doesn't want the drama, and such a thing is not the focus of the films anyway.  They are not making Precious here.  On the other hand, there are many details in the film that can be used support a valid argument that it actually happened to the character sometime in the forever unseen past.  The covering of every inch of his body in protective, convoluted layers.  His fear *and shame* of being seen by anyone who he does not feel "safe" with.  The way that he flinches a little from Han's touch, as pointed out by @Reynak.  The point referenced by @Sylvia Snow that the production said Snoke used to be normal looking and the indications that he may have been physically around young Ben.  Ren's state of supplication and dependency to such a point that he seems like a boy in the face of Snoke and like @Sylvia Snow pointed out, Snoke literally blocks the light from Ren in his higher position.  The way Snoke has two beautiful men fight in front of him like a gross old lech.  The way Ren seems simultaneously so thoroughly damaged yet can still look at Rey's mouth with a non-lascivious but rather beautiful sense of attraction and wonder.

I think "it's also there", to quote you, in that it, actual sexual abuse, might exist in the direction JJ gave to Adam Driver on how to play a scene and/or in the secret, untold backstory that JJ, Kasdan and Driver created for the character.  It makes me think of something @Reynak said in one of her brilliant posts on this subject.  She posed the question of whether Kylo was shuddering after metaphorical sexual moments in the movie because he has been placed in the role of the maiden losing her/his virginity or if there's more to it than that, namely, that he is shuddering not only because this is his first experience with a partner he actually wants, but also because he has had prior traumatizing experience with sex before.  The way Adam plays that moment and several others can be used to support either argument.

Given all the subtext pointing to a sexual abuse metaphor, it is quite possible that Adam Driver would approach the character in such a way that he would believe in his own actor's headcanon, but course would never outright say, that Kylo/Ben had been sexually abused by either Snoke or his minions at some time in the past.  That aspect would not be an actual part of the text of the story, but that "hidden knowledge" would bleed through quite a bit and create a strong subtext because every decision Driver made would be informed by that headcanon.  Considering how strong the child predator vibes are in this movie, I would not be surprised if some kind of thought process like that was going on.

This makes me think of several "making of" documentaries that I have seen.  I remember one where Omar Sharif was told by David Lean to play the moment when Dr. Zhivago sees Bolshevik forces violently approaching his neighborhood like he was reaching sexual climax because Lean wanted a certain effect.  I also think I once mentioned how the director of Ben-Hur told the actor playing Ben-Hur's Roman friend, (Massala I think), to play a scene where they greet each other with the headcanon that he and Ben-Hur had had a sexual relationship in the past, but the same direction was *not* given to Charlton Heston, nor did Heston know about the direction to the other actor, thus creating a certain dynamic.  I wonder about the differences in direction that JJ gave to Adam as opposed to Daisy in the cliffside scene.  I would not be surprised if Adam got all kinds of interesting separate direction as I imagine he may be one of the few people on set who actually is privy to what his character is really about ... and I bet JJ and Rian haven't even given him the whole story yet.

Totally agree, again. I have seen that documentary where Charlton Heston jokes about how he played Ben Hur oblivious to the fact that the actor playing Messala had been told to play his as having homoerotic feelings for Beh Hur. He didn't say anything about a sexual relationship but he said that, for Messala, their relationship hadn't only been of frindship, that he wanted Ben Hur.

This did work because that burning hate Messala feels for Ben Hur is so intense,so consuming that something very deep must have caused it. The viewer is never told about Messala's unrequited desire/feelings for Ben Hur but his hate is shocking and incredibly powerful. I guess he felt that and he didn't accept it, it was wrong in his mind and so this led to that destructive hate he felt.

I agree that AD was probably told a background story for Kylo that will never appear on screen because actors need to feel the characters and he doesn't play Ben as an entitled brat that felt misunderstood by his dad, but as a really damaged creature. He is a method actor, so he needs to feel the character. I guess all actors need to really understand a character to play it well.

In HP movies, Alan Rickman always knew what kind of man Snape really was, JK Rowling told him and only him, that's why his performance was so compelling and there was always that aura of tragedy about him when he seemed to be the ultimate evil.

But apart from all these things, the use of the word seduction applied to what Snoke did to Ben and then having the same word used again in reference to the Light, and by association to Rey, given that we know what Kylo/Ben feels for Rey, is quite powerful as a hint. Of course there will be nothing remotely sexual on screen, but this doesn't mean this impression some of us got happened by coincidence, it happened because of reasons. We have seen lots of movies and we didn't feel creeped out by the bad guy the way we are creeped out by Snoke, and this is for reasons.

Again, this is subtext. It works very much like symbos and metaphors in poems and stories or fairy tales. The Force should not be enough for me to feel engrossed by the story, but it is be because it's a metaphor for spirituality,religious feelings in a general sense,a phlosophy of life, something trasncendental and grand.

The Force Bond may work for me, but because it refers to fate, to destiny, to that je ne sais pas que that joins some couples and lasts a lifetime. Little Red Riding Hood , for instance, has been considered a metaphor of sexual awakening as well as a warnig for girls about the dangers of trusting strangers. Does this mean the wolf wants to rape the girl or that the girl is somewhat attracted to a wolf? Gosh, no, but there is something called subtext,there are symbols, metaphors, and they are there.

How are we supposed to understand the tale? Well, wolves can eat little girls and their grannies, that's it. But they maybe lucky and a hunter, like a sort of father figure or a figure of order and authority may arrive in time to save the day. So, girls, be careful and don't trust the wolves that may try to lure you to dark lonely places like a forest with evil purposes in mind. The forest is dangerous, listen to mum and don't go that way. And if you still go, let's pray dad or a policeman or another good male may arrive in time to save the day. There is your message for cheeky wayward preteens. The problem is that if they take it so literally they won't get the warning implied in it, and will think danger only comes from literal wolves in literal forests.

Is there subtext there? Loads of it? Will anything dirty happen in the tale? Gosh no? There will be violence to boot but nothing remotely sexual.

So, what did Snoke do to Kylo? He messed up with his mind through the Force and seduced him to make him enter the Dark Side which Kylo hates and makes him so miserable he can barely contain his tears. Seduced to what, to a life of living death, like @Darth Dingleberry has said? Still, he stays put and doesn't leave. This is canon, this is what we saw on screen. Also, Reylo hasn't directly happened on screen because Ren was just trying to get information for her, he is not attracted to her, he only wants to have her by his side for some reason like ruling the galaxy together or join him in the Dark Side where they can be miserble and on the brink of tears together. This doesn't work for me, but fortunately there's much more to SW than that.

The Force Bond is something as basic as a spiritual connection between two young people, a connection that encompasses everything, their minds, their souls, their feelings and emotions including healthy physical attraction and pure romantic love. This is what is there for them, still in the making. They may want to tell us that it is nothing as boring as pure romantic love with a deep connection but this is what the subtext shows, what we felt and made us look for more on the internet, to see if there were others who saw the same, hidden but latent, present there somehow. And there is nothing cheesy or sappy about what he is feeling and she still rejects, it is very important in any person's life.

So, in the movie, they may talk about:The Force, Force Bond, Dark Side, Compassion, the Light, May the Force be with you, Empire, First Order, Resistance, Rebellion, Democracy. Yeah, I get it, but this saga is so interesting because under those names they are dealing with the most trascendental themes in people's lives.
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Post by Reynak on Tue 29 Mar 2016, 1:30 pm

@SoloSideCousin,

I'm glad you liked my posts, especially because I'm having the time of my life reading yours and everybody else's on this thread. Really brilliant.

As for what you said about the writers, I hope they don't go so dark with Kylo, poor baby, because in RL I wouldn't hold much hope for him. Whatever he does,good or bad, he'd be doomed and his future was written they day he did something that made him fall, the rest is living death, no more.

Please, I want a bit of unrealistic hope for this boy or it will break my heart. I really don't know how he's managed to pull at my heart-strings so hard.

And I feel protective towards him, I can't help it, so those who think we like him because he is pretty are completely wrong. He is pretty but this has nothing to do with this. Other actors are more handsome according to Hollywood standards and don't move people they way he does. The character is fantastic and so is the actor.That's why.
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Post by vaderito on Tue 29 Mar 2016, 1:33 pm

They won't go so dark because Kylo is very entertaining character and they don't want to lose that amid doom and gloom. His tantrums are iconic and kids love them and love him. So they'll keep humor for sure.
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Post by CienaRee on Tue 29 Mar 2016, 1:45 pm

Amazing posts,guys.I'm seriously in awe of all the amazing and intelligent people here.Reylo's got the best fans,seriously!
As for Rey's characterization I've been thinking that she seems sweet and adorable because she has no memories of her family and it might be because she chooses to repress what could be very painful and violent events that happened in her life especially if her father is Snoke or both her parents are DS.I know some speculate she's been mind whipped but the more I think about it the more I've come to the concussion that Rey is su choosing not to remember she is because she doesn't want to deal with I've actually had this head cannon for a whole that her father is Snoke and she might have suffered some kind of abuse from him because she wasn't showing any signs of being FS,maybe she might have witnessed him killing her mother which could have led to her being traumatized and repressing her memories as a result.
If you think about it her family couldn't have performed a mind while on her because young Rey is calling for them to come back and in the novelization she seems to recognize the voice who promises to come back for her.
I think it would be Interesting what kind of characterization we'll get of her once it's revealed who she is.That's why I'm hoping she comes from a Dark origin.

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Post by BastilaBey on Tue 29 Mar 2016, 1:48 pm

@vaderito wrote:@Reynak

Many vieweres didn't get Ren's character because the idea of a boy who betrayed his family because he was lonely and felt abandoned  makes him seem petty even if it's said he was manipulated by an evil mastermind. His drama pales in comparison to what Finn and Rey had to endure.

That's because Rey and Finn are given unnaturally sunny, highly moral, optimistic, lucky-go-happy (in his case) personalities that are completely insincere and wrong for their background. That decision was purely driven by plot that required to make heroes as likable as possible within first 3 seconds of meeting them, so they sacrificed interesting characterization. In short, they were written to be instantly liked, not deep or intriguing.

They poured their hearts into Ren's characterization which is not only on the money for his background but also hints at much deeper subtext if you know where to look (people in this thread obviously do). However, that also makes him less sympathetic because why didn't he turn so sunny and "it's the right thing to do" when he had loving heroic parents? In short, they gave one character a task of lifting all the heavy character weight, while others just turn on their natural charm and cuteness, and that's flying over some people's heads.

Yes and it's interesting to note that Rey has darker elements both in Before the Awakening and the TFA novelization. Clearly a conscious choice to make her as warm as possible in the movie, which I guess is good so people will root for the franchise's first female protagonist but…hope in 8 we start to see more humanizing qualities from her, they should not be afraid to make her a fully fleshed out character with flaws.
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Post by vaderito on Tue 29 Mar 2016, 1:52 pm

Rey was dropped when she was 5 so her memories cannot be clear even if she tried. Her age is a reason enough for lakc of recollections, no mind wipe necessary. Plus, even Pablo said that her Jedi skills are coming from Kylo's mind. He just didn't confirm or deny Force Bond.
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Post by CienaRee on Tue 29 Mar 2016, 1:58 pm

Yes!I've said it enforce but it's really Before the Awakening that made me a fan of Rey since they actually showed her as someone with flaws who is a good person despite what she has endured something I didn't tea,my feel in TFA.I'm really hoping they add more layers to her because they put her on a ode tall her way too much on TFA.Everyone like her,she got to right and defeat Kylo using abilities she wasn't suppose to be able to use to such extent without a proper training.Even with Like they didn't have him destroy the a Death Star,battle and defeat Vader all in one episode.And despite being the hero they weren't afraid of making him loose to Vader and loose a hand in the process.
Seriously,writers don't treat Rey differently just because she's a woman,It would be detrimental to her character.
I really hope her lack of personality is due to her not knowing who she really is and that would change once she finds out otherwise it would be such a waste of potentially good character.

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