The Last Jedi: General Discussion

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Post by motherofpearl1 on Sat 04 Nov 2017, 11:41 am

Heres something a bit off topic but............today I was reading the agony aunt column in my local newspaper...and one letter made me think of Kylo. A worried mum, who s marriage had broken up, was having problems with her son due to his father practically disappearing. Her father in law offered to pay for boarding school which would have given her a break. But the columnist advised her against it - because she was concerned her son would think she was sending him away because she didnt love him. Where have we heard that before? SW echoes real life much more closely than you think.
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Post by FrolickingFizzgig on Sun 05 Nov 2017, 8:28 am

The Last Jedi: General Discussion - Page 37 HY27cKz

The Last Jedi: General Discussion - Page 37 8GNrLkw

Hamill seems to debunk "dark" Luke (no surprise, imo).
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Post by IoJovi on Sun 05 Nov 2017, 8:37 am

@FrolickingFizzgig Interesting! He flat out says Luke hasn’t fallen to the Darkside, but instead has lost his confidence. I still feel though that by the way he is marketed (or large, and looming in the background), that something is still severely off. @SoloSideCousin and I discussed the possibility of a über lightside Luke - someone who became so filled with the light it knocked him off balance. Combine with his equally strong headed nephew who is also fervent in his opposing ideals, it’s easy to see how this would be a recipe for disaster.

The teaser poster suggests that Rey will be the one to mend that bridge.
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Post by FrolickingFizzgig on Sun 05 Nov 2017, 8:43 am

@IoJovi wrote:@FrolickingFizzgig Interesting! He flat out says Luke hasn’t fallen to the Darkside, but instead has lost his confidence. I still feel though that by the way he is marketed (or large, and looming in the background), that something is still severely off. @SoloSideCousin and I discussed the possibility of a über lightside Luke - someone who became so filled with the light it knocked him off balance. Combine with his equally strong headed nephew who is also fervent in his opposing ideals, it’s easy to see how this would be a recipe for disaster.

The teaser poster suggests that Rey will be the one to mend that bridge.
@IoJovi
IMO, the marketing with "dark" looking Luke is meant to represent perspectives, Rey and Kylo's to be exact. The co-protagonists see different sides of Luke. It's a simple explanation that maintains Luke's midlife crisis trajectory in VIII.

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Post by PalmettoBlue on Sun 05 Nov 2017, 8:49 am

@FrolickingFizzgig

I noticed that as well. And the story group has implied as much before. I tend to think of him as being scared Luke, not dark. I think what he's discovered over the last 30 years has (rightly) shaken his faith in the Jedi order. Perhaps it's shaken his faith so deeply that he now believes (as he says in the trailer): "It's time for the Jedi to end."
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Post by IoJovi on Sun 05 Nov 2017, 8:51 am

@FrolickingFizzgig wrote:
@IoJovi wrote:@FrolickingFizzgig Interesting! He flat out says Luke hasn’t fallen to the Darkside, but instead has lost his confidence. I still feel though that by the way he is marketed (or large, and looming in the background), that something is still severely off. @SoloSideCousin and I discussed the possibility of a über lightside Luke - someone who became so filled with the light it knocked him off balance. Combine with his equally strong headed nephew who is also fervent in his opposing ideals, it’s easy to see how this would be a recipe for disaster.

The teaser poster suggests that Rey will be the one to mend that bridge.
@IoJovi
IMO, the marketing with "dark" looking Luke is meant to represent perspectives, Rey and Kylo's to be exact. The co-protagonists see different sides of Luke. It's a simple explanation that maintains Luke's midlife crisis trajectory in VIII.

The Last Jedi: General Discussion - Page 37 OETptp8
@FrolickingFizzgig

Good one!!! cheers

If Kylo is meant to be one half of the protagonist as Rian Johnson says, it’d make complete sense he’d be marketed in this way. The extreme lightside point of view may still be valid, but that’d be solely from Kylo’s perspective. If Rey is meant to sympathize and relate to Kylo as much as I’m anticipating, it’s not out of the question for her understand his point of view on Luke as well - and vice versa. I do expect her to eventually to be the one who helps repair the rift between them.
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Post by Cowgirlsamurai on Sun 05 Nov 2017, 8:53 am

Maybe Luke was a light side extremist when he was training Ben and it was a factor in Ben's fall, but now he's just a haunted, regretful, man who's exhiled himself and given up. He obviously doesn't want to go down the same path with Rey because he doesn't want to mess up again.
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Post by rey09 on Sun 05 Nov 2017, 9:00 am

Luke sounds like he's become very jaded and lost faith in whatever he believed in. This whole jaded/uninterested mentor sounds so familiar, I'm trying to think of where else I have seen this but can't really remember, I think in Avatar when he needs a bending trainer.  I was on tv tropes and going down the rabbit hole with this one :

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CynicalMentor 

Luke is probably going to fall under one of the different kinds of "sour" mentors. I think the real trigger for Luke will be seeing Kylo coming back and whatever key moment occurs with Rey.
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Post by DarthRen on Sun 05 Nov 2017, 9:10 am

Another explanation for Luke on the side of the villains could also be relate to Kylo's backstory. Luke might have done something GA might not approve and see him more like a villainous behavior, even if Luke is not a villain. Also, Luke trained Ben and maybe shaped him into the villain unwillingly, thinking he's doing the right thing for him.


@IoJovi

I've been asking people about this exact thing, most of them think Kylo will hate Luke no matter what or viceversa. Simply two extremist sides colliding. Personally, I do think their relationship will get a bit better and somehow being able to co-exist.
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Post by motherofpearl1 on Sun 05 Nov 2017, 9:30 am

@IoJovi wrote:
@FrolickingFizzgig wrote:
@IoJovi wrote:@FrolickingFizzgig Interesting! He flat out says Luke hasn’t fallen to the Darkside, but instead has lost his confidence. I still feel though that by the way he is marketed (or large, and looming in the background), that something is still severely off. @SoloSideCousin and I discussed the possibility of a über lightside Luke - someone who became so filled with the light it knocked him off balance. Combine with his equally strong headed nephew who is also fervent in his opposing ideals, it’s easy to see how this would be a recipe for disaster.

The teaser poster suggests that Rey will be the one to mend that bridge.
@IoJovi
IMO, the marketing with "dark" looking Luke is meant to represent perspectives, Rey and Kylo's to be exact. The co-protagonists see different sides of Luke. It's a simple explanation that maintains Luke's midlife crisis trajectory in VIII.

The Last Jedi: General Discussion - Page 37 OETptp8
@FrolickingFizzgig

Good one!!! cheers

If Kylo is meant to be one half of the protagonist as Rian Johnson says, it’d make complete sense he’d be marketed in this way. The extreme lightside point of view may still be valid, but that’d be solely from Kylo’s perspective. If Rey is meant to sympathize and relate to Kylo as much as I’m anticipating, it’s not out of the question for her understand his point of view on Luke as well - and vice versa. I do expect her to eventually to be the one who helps repair the rift between them.
@IoJovi

Interesting that Kylo sees Luke in such a negative way....to Rey he is a potential mentor, yet another father figure she craves. To Kylo he is a sinister presence looming over him. Just what went down with that Jedi academy?
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Post by vaderito on Sun 05 Nov 2017, 9:50 am

@PalmettoBlue wrote:@FrolickingFizzgig

I noticed that as well. And the story group has implied as much before. I tend to think of him as being scared Luke, not dark. I think what he's discovered over the last 30 years has (rightly) shaken his faith in the Jedi order. Perhaps it's shaken his faith so deeply that he now believes (as he says in the trailer): "It's time for the Jedi to end."
@PalmettoBlue

I find it hilarious that TLJ marketing has yet again sent a wrong message that they have to clarify in an interview. IMO, they keep overestimating fandom's ability to comprehend some things. Putting Luke on both Rey's and Kylo's poster doesn't mean Dark Luke but that he connects those 2 characters and likely acts as an antagonist to both. Antagonist =/= evil. Sure, some of them may be but that isn't their only role. In Catch Me If You Can, Tom hanks is Leo's antagonist and he isn't evil. He's just trying to twart Leo's schemes and bring him to justice. As the matter of fact, Leo isn't evil either.

So I don't know why LF constantly needs to apologize to dumba***es who get pretty straightforward things wrong. And we aren't talking about GA here cause GA doesn't read SW magazines. We are talking about invested fans who already know half of the story including that Luke is a connection to Rey and Kylo by being their mentor.
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Post by motherofpearl1 on Sun 05 Nov 2017, 10:01 am

I have a strong feeling Mark is going to give his best performance in this film - in fact I think they are all going to give amazing performances in it!
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Post by Night Huntress on Sun 05 Nov 2017, 10:11 am

@vaderito wrote:
I find it hilarious that TLJ marketing has yet again sent a wrong message that they have to clarify in an interview. IMO, they keep overestimating fandom's ability to comprehend some things. Putting Luke on both Rey's and Kylo's poster doesn't mean Dark Luke but that he connects those 2 characters and likely acts as an antagonist to both. Antagonist =/= evil. Sure, some of them may be but that isn't their only role. In Catch Me If You Can, Tom hanks is Leo's antagonist and he isn't evil. He's just trying to twart Leo's schemes and bring him to justice. As the matter of fact, Leo isn't evil either.
@vaderito

You explained it very well! In german another word for Antagonist is "Gegenspieler" which means opponent - it has nothing to do with being evil or bad. We have a lot of examples in movies where neither is the bad guy... The Fugitive is also one of them. Tommy Lee Jones is the Antagonist of Harrison Ford- but he is not a bad guy- he is a good cop... and neither is Harrison as the Fugitive.
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Post by vaderito on Sun 05 Nov 2017, 10:23 am

@Night Huntress wrote:

You explained it very well! In german another word for Antagonist is "Gegenspieler" which means opponent - it has nothing to do with being evil or bad. We have a lot of examples in movies where neither is the bad guy... The Fugitive is also one of them. Tommy Lee Jones is the Antagonist of Harrison Ford- but he is not a bad guy- he is a good cop... and neither is Harrison as the Fugitive.
@Night Huntress

Exactly. Gegenspieler is a better word cause it explains it better. Opponent doesn't mean evil, just that interests don't line up with the main lead's. Ford wants to run, Tommy wants to catch him. neither is doing it for evil purposes.
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Post by Forsythia on Sun 05 Nov 2017, 10:24 am

@vaderito wrote:So I don't know why LF constantly needs to apologize to dumba***es who get pretty straightforward things wrong. And we aren't talking about GA here cause GA doesn't read SW magazines. We are talking about invested fans who already know half of the story including that Luke is a connection to Rey and Kylo by being their mentor.
@vaderito

It's probably the same group of fanboys that deny any connection between Rey and Kylo and say they would hate Rey if she became darker or accepted Kylo's help, because they only distinguish between white/Jedi and black/Sith and are incapable of seeing anything in between or understanding complex characters. It's like they have a complete lack of imagination, jump to the most obvious conclusion and stick with it without even thinking about alternative explanations. Luke looks darker? He must be evil! They've ruined his character! Rey might take Kylo's hand? She must be joining the dark side! She's a completely immoral character now! Kylo was presented as the villain in TFA? There can't be any kind of positive character development in TLJ, he can't have a tragic story that will make us empathize with him and he is responsible for everything bad that happened between RotJ and TFA.
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Post by snufkin on Sun 05 Nov 2017, 10:34 am

I would not envy being in LF’s marketing shoes because you have these uber invested fans who, lbr aren’t always the most perceptive audience members because they have obsessive tunnel vision. But they buy everything you put out, so you have to keep them other mix/engaged while also reaching out to a global audience.

Luke may not be Dark but he’s pretty out there from the moments he’s shown via Leia’s POV in Bloodline. He at least gets the reality of what actually happened with his dad and Obi-Wan thrown in his face with whatever happened with Ben. And that he’s not nearly as good at being an uncle as his own uncle was with him. I’d expect given Carrie Fisher’s comments about family and knowing how she mined both the public and personal drama of how her father’s demons and affair with Elizabeth Taylor (it’s at the center of Wishful Drinking and Bright Lights) shattered and reshaped her own family and the person she was, that will be some of Luke and Leia’s stories.

Anyways, I think Rey will be angry with him the same fundamental reason she doesn’t understand Kylo - rejecting the one thing she’s wanted most in her life, having somebody return to take them home/to family. Kylo rejected Han’s offer pretty violently and she may know from being in his mind that he wanted to leave the FO but feels compelled for other reasons. She’s there to help Leia who’s lost her son and husband to bring her brother back. He’s probably going to refuse and that, plus rejecting her for raw powah is where we get Middlemarch in Space once Kylo shows up.
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Post by Night Huntress on Sun 05 Nov 2017, 10:38 am

@Forsythia wrote:
It's probably the same group of fanboys that deny any connection between Rey and Kylo and say they would hate Rey if she became darker or accepted Kylo's help, because they only distinguish between white/Jedi and black/Sith and are incapable of seeing anything in between or understanding complex characters. It's like they have a complete lack of imagination, jump to the most obvious conclusion and stick with it without even thinking about alternative explanations. Luke looks darker? He must be evil! They've ruined his character! Rey might take Kylo's hand? She must be joining the dark side! She's a completely immoral character now! Kylo was presented as the villain in TFA? There can't be any kind of positive character development in TLJ, he can't have a tragic story that will make us empathize with him and he is responsible for everything bad that happened between RotJ and TFA.
@Forsythia

It's actually funny - for years I already had a story in my head where a Jedi and a Sith /Darksider would team-up / fall in love.
I never thought we would ever really see that in a SW movie... but now it seems we maybe (hopefully) will get just that. Tire langue

How can they stuck with the boring "good guys are the good guys and never ever mix up with something outside their team" stories? That's so boring. Sleep

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Post by SheLitAFire on Sun 05 Nov 2017, 10:59 am

@Night Huntress wrote:
@Forsythia wrote:
It's probably the same group of fanboys that deny any connection between Rey and Kylo and say they would hate Rey if she became darker or accepted Kylo's help, because they only distinguish between white/Jedi and black/Sith and are incapable of seeing anything in between or understanding complex characters. It's like they have a complete lack of imagination, jump to the most obvious conclusion and stick with it without even thinking about alternative explanations. Luke looks darker? He must be evil! They've ruined his character! Rey might take Kylo's hand? She must be joining the dark side! She's a completely immoral character now! Kylo was presented as the villain in TFA? There can't be any kind of positive character development in TLJ, he can't have a tragic story that will make us empathize with him and he is responsible for everything bad that happened between RotJ and TFA.
@Forsythia

It's actually funny - for years I already had a story in my head where a Jedi and a Sith /Darksider would team-up / fall in love.
I never thought we would ever really see that in a SW movie... but now it seems we maybe (hopefully) will get just that. Tire langue

How can they stuck with the boring "good guys are the good guys and never ever mix up with something outside their team" stories? That's so boring. Sleep

@Night Huntress

This is exactly what I was talking with my dad about the other night. He said he didn't think grey was interesting and that balance had already been accomplished with Anakin (which, obviously not completely, there's still some kind of issue if we're back for a ST lol) and imo grey brings about so much more of better story line to watch these people that we know and love struggle with complex and nuanced story lines and personalities, which we can all identify with more than just the extreme good vs evil, black vs white story. So many more layers to peel back.
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Post by EchoBase on Sun 05 Nov 2017, 12:18 pm

I don't know if this is fanart or official, but I really like it.

The Last Jedi: General Discussion - Page 37 Img_1020

Source: https://twitter.com/daisyrbrasil/status/927234534139146245
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Post by Birdwoman on Sun 05 Nov 2017, 12:59 pm

I watched the movie version of West Side Story (the one from the 60's with Natalie Wood), interesting thing is that the director of that film used lots of red in the film. The sets and the use of red is very similar to what Rian seems to be doing in his film TLJ. It was interesting.

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Post by Kylo Rey on Sun 05 Nov 2017, 2:07 pm

@Birdwoman wrote:I watched the movie version of West Side Story (the one from the 60's with Natalie Wood), interesting thing is that the director of that film used lots of red in the film.  The sets and the use of red is very similar to what Rian seems to be doing in his film TLJ.  It was interesting.  
@Birdwoman

That's some really cool insight! I noticed that Rian seems to be using a LOT of close ups with intimate and dynamic angles. Feels quite indie-ish at times. I feel like someone should create a TLJ cinematography thread as I've seen a lot of great posts touching on this subject in the last few days.
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Post by SoloSideCousin on Sun 05 Nov 2017, 2:24 pm

@FrolickingFizzgig wrote:The Last Jedi: General Discussion - Page 37 HY27cKz

The Last Jedi: General Discussion - Page 37 8GNrLkw

Hamill seems to debunk "dark" Luke (no surprise, imo).
@FrolickingFizzgig


Well that sucks. I know I am in the minority here, but there was so much more potential here, and Rian has gone with the depressed old mentor route.  There is nothing brave *at all* in that. It is honestly the most predictable route possible. It is literally "oh I am an old man burned by life who is in my 'get off my lawn' hidey hole until a wonderful young girl brings me back to life." That is completely Hallmark movie at its essence. And forget about "DarkLuke" that frequently gets narrowed down to cackling Luke though no one here ever envisioned that, this article debunks uber-light-side Luke, mentally unbalanced Luke, Jekyll and Hyde Luke, even Misguided-about-how-the force works Luke. Wow. I expected a lot more than this from Rian.

But perhaps Rian is not that brave at all. Perhaps Luke needs to be marketed as dark to prepare the audience for the mere fact that Luke won't be perfect.

I kept telling my husband that I believed that overall TLJ would be stronger, that really interesting stuff would happen outside of Kylo and Reylo scenes. Yeah, not saying that anymore. Maybe Poe will get more interesting, so that will help. But in the end it looks like it will be Kylo and Reylo carrying the innovative and brave sector of the movie. What a waste. And thank God for Adam Driver.
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Post by Saracene on Sun 05 Nov 2017, 2:33 pm

Ultimately TLJ was never Rian's movie to make, with the whole Disney machine behind him. No way they were going to go too far and do something truly daring with a beloved OT character.
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Post by spacebaby45678 on Sun 05 Nov 2017, 3:03 pm

@Saracene wrote:Ultimately TLJ was never Rian's movie to make, with the whole Disney machine behind him. No way they were going to go too far and do something truly daring with a beloved OT character.
@Saracene

This
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Post by DarthRen on Sun 05 Nov 2017, 3:06 pm

@SoloSideCousin wrote:
@FrolickingFizzgig wrote:The Last Jedi: General Discussion - Page 37 HY27cKz

The Last Jedi: General Discussion - Page 37 8GNrLkw

Hamill seems to debunk "dark" Luke (no surprise, imo).
@FrolickingFizzgig


Well that sucks. I know I am in the minority here, but there was so much more potential here, and Rian has gone with the depressed old mentor route.  There is nothing brave *at all* in that. It is honestly the most predictable route possible. It is literally "oh I am an old man burned by life who is in my 'get off my lawn' hidey hole until a wonderful young girl brings me back to life." That is completely Hallmark movie at its essence. And forget about "DarkLuke" that frequently gets narrowed down to cackling Luke though no one here ever envisioned that, this article debunks uber-light-side Luke, mentally unbalanced Luke, Jekyll and Hyde Luke, even Misguided-about-how-the force works Luke. Wow. I expected a lot more than this from Rian.

But perhaps Rian is not that brave at all. Perhaps Luke needs to be marketed as dark to prepare the audience for the mere fact that Luke won't be perfect.

I kept telling my husband that I believed that overall TLJ would be stronger, that really interesting stuff would happen outside of Kylo and Reylo scenes. Yeah, not saying that anymore. Maybe Poe will get more interesting, so that will help. But in the end it looks like it will be Kylo and Reylo carrying the innovative and brave sector of the movie. What a waste. And thank God for Adam Driver.
@SoloSideCousin

I don't think it rules it out and remember Mark is under NDA, so can't even talk much more than in vague references how Luke is different. This is really not telling as much beyond Evil!Luke which wasn't a very good idea to begin with. Still he could've done bad things out of a good will, that he really believed in one way of interpretating things and screwed it up.

One thing is clearly, it's not gonna be as edgy as some people think. Which takes me to Reylo, they might play it safe a little bit, not the way many of us would love to. They have to protect OT characters but also new main hero in a way. So, I guess Rian had to compromise on various things.
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