What REALLY happened at Luke's Jedi "Let's Not Call it an Academy" Place...your thoughts?

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Re: What REALLY happened at Luke's Jedi "Let's Not Call it an Academy" Place...your thoughts?

Post by Kessel on Thu Oct 19, 2017 7:41 am

While I still have my doubts that it was an accident, I would LOVE something like that to be the case. It would be a great twist that could offer a lot of nuance to the story.

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Re: What REALLY happened at Luke's Jedi "Let's Not Call it an Academy" Place...your thoughts?

Post by SoloSideCousin on Thu Oct 19, 2017 7:46 am

@Night Huntress wrote:
@SoloSideCousin wrote:
I agree. It's always about the mother with these Skywalker guys. :-)

But in all seriousness. I actually think that if it is about his mother/Vader reveal, that actually makes the "attack" more likely to be accidental. I really feel like that they are going to keep doing a number of things that "look like Anakin", but are actually not Anakin or a total subversion of Anakin. That whole "looks can be deceiving" seems to be hardwired into Kylo, starting with how he is tempted by the light, when Anakin was always tempted by the dark, and how he "looks like Vader", but is actually nothing like cold, emotionless, cruel Vader.

Also, Snoke is very much in charge of the messaging surrounding Kylo Ren. It's illegal to say "Ben Solo". Why? Wouldn't that be a great feat for the FO? To claim the hero's child as one of their own? But somehow to Snoke that "PR coup" so to speak, is less important than destroying the Ben Solo identity under the persona of Kylo Ren. And that Kylo Ren persona is all about being a bad*** and being powerful. Ben Solo might have accidentally blown people up, but Snoke is not going to sell it that way, because that would undercut Kylo Ren's cold operator image. OTOH, spreading the notion that this mysterious Kylo Ren is a "Jedi Killer" will just enhance that "don't get in Kylo Ren's way" image.
@SoloSideCousin

I'm more and more convinced it was an accident. What if even Luke didn't know what really happened? He was there, but was he present on the exact location of the incident?
What if everyone, even Luke and his parents thought it was on purpose, and turned away from him when he needed them most?
That would also explain why he felt so much abandoned... and that would left him very vulnerable for Snokes manipulations.
@Night Huntress

Exactly!!! And Snoke could say, "Even your parents and uncle think the worst of you, that you're a curse/evil/freak, etc .... But I don't. I think you're exceptional and amazing." And with that, given Ben's vulnerability, Snoke could finally break him.

That scenario could go a long way to explaining some of the catwalk dialogue too. "I've been waiting for you for a long time," and Kylo's shock that Han wanted him to come home, because if they believed him capable of being Anakin 2.0, that had to be the biggest hurt and rejection in the world.
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Re: What REALLY happened at Luke's Jedi "Let's Not Call it an Academy" Place...your thoughts?

Post by ZioRen on Thu Oct 19, 2017 7:50 am

I know we decided way back when to not trouble ourselves with how Pablo talked about Kylo Ren, but thinking back on what I remember of how Pablo has talked about the Jedi temple incident, it definitely doesn't make me think of an accident.

I don't know, it's just hard for me to reconcile how other sources have made the incident sound intentional with the idea that it was pure accident. Maybe that's misdirection, but it still seems strange.
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Re: What REALLY happened at Luke's Jedi "Let's Not Call it an Academy" Place...your thoughts?

Post by Night Huntress on Thu Oct 19, 2017 8:07 am

@ZioRen wrote:
I don't know, it's just hard for me to reconcile how other sources have made the incident sound intentional with the idea that it was pure accident. Maybe that's misdirection, but it still seems strange.
@ZioRen

I don't think it was pure accident - I do think there was an altercation going on between Ben and his fellow students.
But I don't think he killed them in cold blood. I believe there was some kind of escalation and that led to the so called "massacre" which wasn't what Ben intended - at least not at that time. I mean there must have been some reason he suddenly "snapped" even with Snoke in his head he didn't turn till 23- so why so suddenly? The reveal of Vader being his Grand-daddy ? I doubt it.

Maybe I'm completely off- but if they intend for Kylo to have a redemption arc, they have to somehow convince the GA he deserves it- even after killing his own father... that would be one comprehensible reason. A big misunderstanding from that one final event.


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Re: What REALLY happened at Luke's Jedi "Let's Not Call it an Academy" Place...your thoughts?

Post by SoloSideCousin on Thu Oct 19, 2017 8:07 am

@ZioRen wrote:I know we decided way back when to not trouble ourselves with how Pablo talked about Kylo Ren, but thinking back on what I remember of how Pablo has talked about the Jedi temple incident, it definitely doesn't make me think of an accident.

I don't know, it's just hard for me to reconcile how other sources have made the incident sound intentional with the idea that it was pure accident. Maybe that's misdirection, but it still seems strange.
@ZioRen

Ben may have very well had some angry intentions or may have nebulously have wanted to "hurt" someone. Or maybe he lost his temper or what have you. But in the end he may have had no desire to blow up the whole place. He has culpability on his anger/recklessness, but not so much for his out of control power if he never thought he was capable of creating the equivalent of an air strike.  This kind of action is not murder in a legal or even a religious law sense for many religions, but it could fall into a kind of reckless homicide because though he didn't intend to murder, he still got out of hand emotionally and people died. Since he didn't intend anything so dark, but still intended some hurt, I imagine the guilt on something like this would enormous.  Maybe Rey catches a break when anger just knocks a hut and Luke down. Ben not so much.
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Re: What REALLY happened at Luke's Jedi "Let's Not Call it an Academy" Place...your thoughts?

Post by Saracene on Thu Oct 19, 2017 8:30 am

Looking at Mark's interview with the Russian sci-fi magazine, he describes the event as:

From "The Force Awakening" you know what fate befell the Jedi Academy, where Luke was preparing a new generation of knights, and that his nephew turned to the Dark Side of the Force and murdered other disciples. I guess Luke was dumbfounded and broken, which forced him to go into exile.

This really doesn't sound like a description of an accident, to me it suggests a clear chain of events - Kylo turned to the dark side, then killed the rest of Luke's students. If it was an accident, then it would have been the other way around - killing first, joining dark side second.

It could be that Mark is simply describing what Luke thinks happened, which is possible in a scenario where Luke wasn't around when the massacre happened, or somehow got the wrong idea of what happened in some other way. But I'm not going to get attached to the accident theory too much.
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Re: What REALLY happened at Luke's Jedi "Let's Not Call it an Academy" Place...your thoughts?

Post by Darth_Awakened on Thu Oct 19, 2017 9:15 am

@Saracene

Not that I disagree, it's pretty straight forward quote from Mark, however I think in the same interview (or was it the Empire or the French magazine interview?), Mark also pointed out that there was another thing (he obviously couldn't discuss about in depth - spoilers wise)that led Luke to state of mind we will seem him in in TLJ.

We can speculate if "thet other thing" influenced Ben as well, or it was only Luke related.
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Re: What REALLY happened at Luke's Jedi "Let's Not Call it an Academy" Place...your thoughts?

Post by Night Huntress on Thu Oct 19, 2017 10:31 am

@Saracene wrote:
From "The Force Awakening" you know what fate befell the Jedi Academy, where Luke was preparing a new generation of knights, and that his nephew turned to the Dark Side of the Force and murdered other disciples. I guess Luke was dumbfounded and broken, which forced him to go into exile.

This really doesn't sound like a description of an accident, to me it suggests a clear chain of events - Kylo turned to the dark side, then killed the rest of Luke's students. If it was an accident, then it would have been the other way around - killing first, joining dark side second.

It could be that Mark is simply describing what Luke thinks happened, which is possible in a scenario where Luke wasn't around when the massacre happened, or somehow got the wrong idea of what happened in some other way. But I'm not going to get attached to the accident theory too much.
@Saracene

I really get what you mean, and I think that's what Luke believes. But they keep what happened there so vague for a reason.
Even with Snoke in his head- Ben grew up as the kid of Han and Leia... maybe they weren't so much around but they still good people who loved him. Ben may had issues but deep down I'm sure he was a good person too.
So what exactly made him go Berserker? The reveal of Vader being his Grandfather? That certainly hadn't helped but I don't think it was the trigger.

We know Ben/Kylo is sensitive- so killing all his fellow students for power just doesn't fit. They may not have been best buddies- but he knew them. He isn't Vader... he lashes out in his tantrums but don't kill his people.

That's why I think we miss some key-piece of the big picture. Something that will make the GA and even the Antis rethink their opinion of Ben.
A lot of them hate Kylo so much because they think he betrayed his family and killed all those people for power - that he is a spoiled selfish idiot.

I have the feeling we learn more about all that in TLJ and during the time Kylo spent on Arch-To. That's why they keep what will happen there so secret.
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Re: What REALLY happened at Luke's Jedi "Let's Not Call it an Academy" Place...your thoughts?

Post by PalmettoBlue on Thu Oct 19, 2017 10:56 am

@Night Huntress wrote:
@Saracene wrote:
From "The Force Awakening" you know what fate befell the Jedi Academy, where Luke was preparing a new generation of knights, and that his nephew turned to the Dark Side of the Force and murdered other disciples. I guess Luke was dumbfounded and broken, which forced him to go into exile.

This really doesn't sound like a description of an accident, to me it suggests a clear chain of events - Kylo turned to the dark side, then killed the rest of Luke's students. If it was an accident, then it would have been the other way around - killing first, joining dark side second.

It could be that Mark is simply describing what Luke thinks happened, which is possible in a scenario where Luke wasn't around when the massacre happened, or somehow got the wrong idea of what happened in some other way. But I'm not going to get attached to the accident theory too much.
@Saracene

I really get what you mean, and I think that's what Luke believes. But they keep what happened there so vague for a reason.
Even with Snoke in his head- Ben grew up as the kid of Han and Leia... maybe they weren't so much around but they still good people who loved him. Ben may had issues but deep down I'm sure he was a good person too.
So what exactly made him go Berserker? The reveal of Vader being his Grandfather? That certainly hadn't helped but I don't think it was the trigger.

We know Ben/Kylo is sensitive- so killing all his fellow students for power just doesn't fit. They may not have been best buddies- but he knew them. He isn't Vader... he lashes out in his tantrums but don't kill his people.

That's why I think we miss some key-piece of the big picture. Something that will make the GA and even the Antis rethink their opinion of Ben.
A lot of them hate Kylo so much because they think he betrayed his family and killed all those people for power - that he is a spoiled selfish idiot.

I have the feeling we learn more about all that in TLJ and during the time Kylo spent on Arch-To. That's why they keep what will happen there so secret.
@Night Huntress

Interesting take. However, I’ve always thought the Vader reveal would have been enough. My thought is that Snoke had Long told Ben abt Vader, but he never believed him, instead relying on his family’s honesty. They surely wouldn’t have kept such a huge thing from him.

Then - bam - he finds out they’ve lied to him his entire life. Now he’s lost his faith...and Vader as grandpa is kind of huge. So now all of Snoke’s half-truths and lies look honest - he’d been groomed “from the beginning.”

So. It’s not just that Vader’s his grandfather; that reveal probably made him feel like everything he knew was a lie.

I have long thought that was the trigger. Of course I could be wrong. I just thought I’d throw my two cents into the ring.
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Re: What REALLY happened at Luke's Jedi "Let's Not Call it an Academy" Place...your thoughts?

Post by Night Huntress on Thu Oct 19, 2017 11:12 am

@PalmettoBlue wrote:
@Night Huntress

Interesting take. However, I’ve always thought the Vader reveal would have been enough. My thought is that Snoke had Long told Ben abt Vader, but he never believed him, instead relying on his family’s honesty. They surely wouldn’t have kept such a huge thing from him.

Then - bam - he finds out they’ve lied to him his entire life. Now he’s lost his faith...and Vader as grandpa is kind of huge. So now all of Snoke’s half-truths and lies look honest - he’d been groomed “from the beginning.”

So. It’s not just that Vader’s his grandfather; that reveal probably made him feel like everything he knew was a lie.

I have long thought that was the trigger. Of course I could be wrong. I just thought I’d throw my two cents into the ring.
@PalmettoBlue

It's just my theory of course- maybe I'm completely off... I just think "Vader is my grandfather so I have to be as dark and evil just like him.." is too simple- too obvious. He was an adult when the revelation spread... so his reaction doesn't sound true to me. Maybe if he had been younger- but we know he wasn't. He was 23+ when he turned- so he surely could distinguish between wrong and right. So discovering your Granddaddy was this evil s*** Lord, why wanna be like him??? His mother and uncle were the children of Vader and still were good people- they lied to him, that was wrong...but he was an adult and should at least understand they did it with good intention.


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Re: What REALLY happened at Luke's Jedi "Let's Not Call it an Academy" Place...your thoughts?

Post by DarthRen on Thu Oct 19, 2017 1:35 pm

@Saracene wrote:Looking at Mark's interview with the Russian sci-fi magazine, he describes the event as:

From "The Force Awakening" you know what fate befell the Jedi Academy, where Luke was preparing a new generation of knights, and that his nephew turned to the Dark Side of the Force and murdered other disciples. I guess Luke was dumbfounded and broken, which forced him to go into exile.

This really doesn't sound like a description of an accident, to me it suggests a clear chain of events - Kylo turned to the dark side, then killed the rest of Luke's students. If it was an accident, then it would have been the other way around - killing first, joining dark side second.

It could be that Mark is simply describing what Luke thinks happened, which is possible in a scenario where Luke wasn't around when the massacre happened, or somehow got the wrong idea of what happened in some other way. But I'm not going to get attached to the accident theory too much.
@Saracene

It might be Luke's point of view because in the vision of what we saw he was burried underneath the ruble, R2D2 then besides him as he fell on his knees. A bit further away from the temple where Ben could've done that. Maybe we'll know more about this with Rey's visions to gain some kind of empathy for Kylo. I think there has to be some level of not only Kylo being greedy, lusting for power or simply turning go to DS, but there has to be something that will make audience have a bit of sympathy, and a better understanding of him. If it was simply he turned on them and killed them, people will only see a murderer.
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Re: What REALLY happened at Luke's Jedi "Let's Not Call it an Academy" Place...your thoughts?

Post by FrolickingFizzgig on Thu Oct 19, 2017 1:41 pm

@ZioRen wrote:So folks Tumblr just rained on my theory parade a little bit, but the points they made are correct. As much as I love the "accidental 'splosion" backstory, it doesn't fit with the way we've heard the Jedi Temple incident talked about. It's been called a "massacre" and a "betrayal" and Kylo Ren a "murderer" for having done it. Those descriptors for sure suggest intent, not accident.

Though I suppose the two don't have to be mutually exclusive. I could actually see it tying back to my original theory, which was that a few of the padawans turned on Ben after the Vader reveal, and Ben ended up losing it and going way too far in retaliation, destroying everyone. The "raw power" could easily come to play in that sort of scenario in that Ben had the intention to harm but ended up losing control of his power and going much, much further than he ever intended. That's a way to combine intent with accident in a way that fits in with the new details.
@ZioRen
That could easily be explained by a "from a certain point of view..." perspective, in that it was a betrayal and massacre from a certain perspective, likely the perspective of those who were not present at the time. Those descriptors all come from Pablo/the Visual dictionary, who has been adamant in saying he can keep a secret.

FWIW, I think there was a certain level of alteration to the narrative with regards to what happened there. It makes sense to me that in JJ's original backstory the attack on the temple was more of a calculated act that involved Kylo and the Knights of Ren after Ben was corrupted in his teens, while Rian's backstory may involve some other catastrophe Kylo orchestrated as a young adult. I think the Snoke-manipuation-since-childhood idea has been cut from the canon and replaced with Snoke watching Kylo and then making his move when Kylo was in a vulnerable state, thus "When I found you, I saw raw, untamed power."

I see no reason to avoid getting attached to one idea or another at this point. The movie is less than 2 months away and we won't be focusing on a minute detail like this if the movie is great. Likewise if the movie isn't for us.
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Re: What REALLY happened at Luke's Jedi "Let's Not Call it an Academy" Place...your thoughts?

Post by fuhry on Thu Oct 19, 2017 4:09 pm

@SoloSideCousin wrote:
@ISeeAnIsland wrote:
@ZioRen wrote:So folks Tumblr just rained on my theory parade a little bit, but the points they made are correct. As much as I love the "accidental 'splosion" backstory, it doesn't fit with the way we've heard the Jedi Temple incident talked about. It's been called a "massacre" and a "betrayal" and Kylo Ren a "murderer" for having done it. Those descriptors for sure suggest intent, not accident.

Though I suppose the two don't have to be mutually exclusive. I could actually see it tying back to my original theory, which was that a few of the padawans turned on Ben after the Vader reveal, and Ben ended up losing it and going way too far in retaliation, destroying everyone. The "raw power" could easily come to play in that sort of scenario in that Ben had the intention to harm but ended up losing control of his power and going much, much further than he ever intended. That's a way to combine intent with accident in a way that fits in with the new details.
@ZioRen

I recall those terms being used, but it hasn't swayed me from the Raw Power Explosion theory.

For one thing, those terms are likely being used by an outside perspective from people who weren't there when it happened. If Luke was the only survivor (and disappeared shortly after the incident), likely he and Ben are the only two people who know what went down.

And even if he didn't intend to kill, he did, and that doesn't make it any less of a massacre. Some would still say that he's a murderer.

I doubt that there's any way that this DOESN'T have ties to the Vader reveal. Ben lost it because he was being threatened or his mother was being threatened or something along that line.
@ISeeAnIsland

I agree. It's always about the mother with these Skywalker guys. :-)

But in all seriousness. I actually think that if it is about his mother/Vader reveal, that actually makes the "attack" more likely to be accidental. I really feel like that they are going to keep doing a number of things that "look like Anakin", but are actually not Anakin or a total subversion of Anakin. That whole "looks can be deceiving" seems to be hardwired into Kylo, starting with how he is tempted by the light, when Anakin was always tempted by the dark, and how he "looks like Vader", but is actually nothing like cold, emotionless, cruel Vader.

Also, Snoke is very much in charge of the messaging surrounding Kylo Ren. It's illegal to say "Ben Solo". Why? Wouldn't that be a great feat for the FO? To claim the hero's child as one of their own? But somehow to Snoke that "PR coup" so to speak, is less important than destroying the Ben Solo identity under the persona of Kylo Ren. And that Kylo Ren persona is all about being a bad*** and being powerful. Ben Solo might have accidentally blown people up, but Snoke is not going to sell it that way, because that would undercut Kylo Ren's cold operator image. OTOH, spreading the notion that this mysterious Kylo Ren is a "Jedi Killer" will just enhance that "don't get in Kylo Ren's way" image.
@SoloSideCousin

Interesting - in my headcanon, 'Kylo Ren' and the elimination of Ben Solo as a name and identity is more Kylo/Ben's idea than it is Snoke's. I think that after Ben feels betrayed by his parents and the Republic, and lashes out, he wants to become a totally different person and hide his identity. He's a famous person, known throughout the Republic as the son of the great rebellion heroes, and then, known as the grandson of Vader, particularly after he lets anger get the better of him and destroys the Jedi academy. I think he doesn't want to show his face after that. I think that perhaps the Knights of Ren are his allies from the academy, they all have reason to hide their identity. I feel like the Knights of Ren are traveling around the galaxy, trying to locate Jedi and Sith artifacts to determine the true nature of the Force. And then Snoke finds him, and recruits him into the First Order, convincing him his destiny is to embrace the Dark Side like his grandfather, and promising to help him control his powers.
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Re: What REALLY happened at Luke's Jedi "Let's Not Call it an Academy" Place...your thoughts?

Post by fuhry on Thu Oct 19, 2017 4:40 pm

@FrolickingFizzgig wrote:
@ZioRen wrote:So folks Tumblr just rained on my theory parade a little bit, but the points they made are correct. As much as I love the "accidental 'splosion" backstory, it doesn't fit with the way we've heard the Jedi Temple incident talked about. It's been called a "massacre" and a "betrayal" and Kylo Ren a "murderer" for having done it. Those descriptors for sure suggest intent, not accident.

Though I suppose the two don't have to be mutually exclusive. I could actually see it tying back to my original theory, which was that a few of the padawans turned on Ben after the Vader reveal, and Ben ended up losing it and going way too far in retaliation, destroying everyone. The "raw power" could easily come to play in that sort of scenario in that Ben had the intention to harm but ended up losing control of his power and going much, much further than he ever intended. That's a way to combine intent with accident in a way that fits in with the new details.
@ZioRen
That could easily be explained by a "from a certain point of view..." perspective, in that it was a betrayal and massacre from a certain perspective, likely the perspective of those who were not present at the time. Those descriptors all come from Pablo/the Visual dictionary, who has been adamant in saying he can keep a secret.

FWIW, I think there was a certain level of alteration to the narrative with regards to what happened there. It makes sense to me that in JJ's original backstory the attack on the temple was more of a calculated act that involved Kylo and the Knights of Ren after Ben was corrupted in his teens, while Rian's backstory may involve some other catastrophe Kylo orchestrated as a young adult. I think the Snoke-manipuation-since-childhood idea has been cut from the canon and replaced with Snoke watching Kylo and then making his move when Kylo was in a vulnerable state, thus "When I found you, I saw raw, untamed power."

I see no reason to avoid getting attached to one idea or another at this point. The movie is less than 2 months away and we won't be focusing on a minute detail like this if the movie is great. Likewise if the movie isn't for us.
@FrolickingFizzgig

Yes - originally I thought Snoke was someone who was around Ben from childhood, was a trusted person. But now, I'm not so sure. Leia knows that the Supreme Leader of the First Order is Snoke - and she knows that Kylo is Ben, and that he's with the First Order. Therefore I think she can assume that Snoke was behind Ben's corruption and the destruction of the Temple. She and Han must have found out that Ben 'destroyed it all'. It would stand to reason that Leia would assume that it was because of Snoke's influence on him. But how would she know that's the case? Since she makes that case to Han, it stands to reason it's not something that they are both sure of.

Han knows that Ben 'destroyed it all'. But the only beings that were there that are still alive are Ben, Luke, and R2D2, and R2's not talking. Leia and Han are left to wonder, and to try to piece it all together.
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Re: What REALLY happened at Luke's Jedi "Let's Not Call it an Academy" Place...your thoughts?

Post by Night Huntress on Thu Oct 19, 2017 5:01 pm

@fuhry wrote:
Han knows that Ben 'destroyed it all'.  But the only beings that were there that are still alive are Ben, Luke, and R2D2, and R2's not talking.   Leia and Han are left to wonder, and to try to piece it all together.  
@fuhry

Didn't any of you wonder if Han and Leia tried to contact Ben after what happened? scratch
Didn't they try to speak to him at least? Hear his version of what occurred on that day?

I had the impression the first time his parents confronted him was Han in TFA on that bridge- which is...strange. 6 Years and they just live their lives as if he never existed? Leia as the leader of the Resistance and Han smuggling? Nope

I also wonder if Luke told them personally, or if he just sent a message and went into exile directly
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Re: What REALLY happened at Luke's Jedi "Let's Not Call it an Academy" Place...your thoughts?

Post by IoJovi on Thu Oct 19, 2017 5:18 pm

@Night Huntress wrote:
@fuhry wrote:
Han knows that Ben 'destroyed it all'.  But the only beings that were there that are still alive are Ben, Luke, and R2D2, and R2's not talking.   Leia and Han are left to wonder, and to try to piece it all together.  
@fuhry

Didn't any of you wonder if Han and Leia tried to contact Ben after what happened? scratch
Didn't they try to speak to him at least? Hear his version of what occurred on that day?

I had the impression the first time his parents confronted him was Han in TFA on that bridge- which is...strange. 6 Years and they just live their lives as if he never existed? Leia as the leader of the Resistance and Han smuggling? Nope

I also wonder if Luke told them personally, or if he just sent a message and went into exile directly
@Night Huntress

Yeah you would wonder if either of them at least tried to reach out to Ben after whatever it was that happened at the academy.

Let's also go back to Han's dialogue in TFA: "Yeah, I knew Luke."  He says it with exasperation and it doesn't sound like he's talking about an old beloved friend when he delivers that line.  Han knew SOMETHING about Luke's responsibility, even if he didn't share it then.
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Re: What REALLY happened at Luke's Jedi "Let's Not Call it an Academy" Place...your thoughts?

Post by snufkin on Thu Oct 19, 2017 5:35 pm

The business with not wanting to get lunch, if he feels that estranged from Luke, then that's deeply personal. Probably also more than just put pressure on him to be somebody he's not and lied to him with the exact certain point of view Obi-Wan (his namesake no less) pulled. He may have in fact ditched him so that when Snoke shows up, it looks like the only good option. There's a deep sense of betrayal there, especially when Leia admits that sending him off to Luke was the wrong thing to do.

In terms of what the intent was, I'd lean on it being 50-50. Not that it was a no-fault accident. But that if it's like Bloodline, things got ugly and people like turned on Ben. And he may have wanted to defend himself but also lashed out in anger and caused more mayhem/damage than he intended. The lightsaber tantrums seem to be a way to channel that rage/anger so that he doesn't "lose it" and cause more destruction. Also it might play into the 'murders, traitors, and thieves' lines if he feels that the Resistance=the NR and thinks he's chivalrously rescuing Rey from them. Because what happened may have had to do with the NR turning on his mother. Who has her own "come at me motherf**kers" moments of using the Force and then owning who her biological father is.
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Re: What REALLY happened at Luke's Jedi "Let's Not Call it an Academy" Place...your thoughts?

Post by SoloSideCousin on Thu Oct 19, 2017 5:37 pm

@Night Huntress wrote:
@fuhry wrote:
Han knows that Ben 'destroyed it all'.  But the only beings that were there that are still alive are Ben, Luke, and R2D2, and R2's not talking.   Leia and Han are left to wonder, and to try to piece it all together.  
@fuhry

Didn't any of you wonder if Han and Leia tried to contact Ben after what happened? scratch
Didn't they try to speak to him at least? Hear his version of what occurred on that day?

I had the impression the first time his parents confronted him was Han in TFA on that bridge- which is...strange. 6 Years and they just live their lives as if he never existed? Leia as the leader of the Resistance and Han smuggling? Nope

I also wonder if Luke told them personally, or if he just sent a message and went into exile directly
@Night Huntress

The implication that none of them tried to reach him *after * the incident has always been a big problem for me too. I mean he hadn't been on the dark side road that long. They could have tried to get through to him, at least ask him "What the hell are you doing?"

The OT3 spent their lives rescuing people, but no one seems to have thought of rescuing Kylo/Ben for 6 years. I mean if Han and Leia think that it's okay for him to *come home*, not just leave the FO life, but come home, they have to think that he's at least somewhat safe to be around and not beyond hope. But couldn't they have put that together earlier? Also, Leia has an insurgency force at her disposal. She didn't have to wait for Han, she could have tried to extract Kylo at some point because she felt the light in him.

And Luke, who saved Vader, who was a million times worse than Kylo, doesn't do anything. He just runs away without apparently facing his sister and best friend.

Now maybe there will be some kind of flashback of them trying to get him back, but I don't think so.  I think that "waiting for you for a long time" line indicates no contact was made.  I think they actually did think the worst of him because somehow he reminded them of Vader in the past.

And with regards to Luke, if Kylo really did fall to his Vader ways, why couldn't Luke come back and tell his parents just that, even though he was guilty he didn't squelch the Vader in Kylo? I think he didn't come back because there was more to the story than Kylo just going dark all on his own.

I think Luke did send Artoo with a message. Luke kneeling with the mechanical hand is kind of like the hell version of Leia putting the flash drive (or whatever) in Artoo in ANH. And I think Artoo did see bad stuff, hence his catatonic shutdown.
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Re: What REALLY happened at Luke's Jedi "Let's Not Call it an Academy" Place...your thoughts?

Post by DarthRen on Thu Oct 19, 2017 5:49 pm

@SoloSideCousin wrote:
@Night Huntress wrote:
@fuhry wrote:
Han knows that Ben 'destroyed it all'.  But the only beings that were there that are still alive are Ben, Luke, and R2D2, and R2's not talking.   Leia and Han are left to wonder, and to try to piece it all together.  
@fuhry

Didn't any of you wonder if Han and Leia tried to contact Ben after what happened? scratch
Didn't they try to speak to him at least? Hear his version of what occurred on that day?

I had the impression the first time his parents confronted him was Han in TFA on that bridge- which is...strange. 6 Years and they just live their lives as if he never existed? Leia as the leader of the Resistance and Han smuggling? Nope

I also wonder if Luke told them personally, or if he just sent a message and went into exile directly
@Night Huntress

The implication that none of them tried to reach him *after * the incident has always been a big problem for me too. I mean he hadn't been on the dark side road that long. They could have tried to get through to him, at least ask him "What the hell are you doing?"

The OT3 spent their lives rescuing people, but no one seems to have thought of rescuing Kylo/Ben for 6 years. I mean if Han and Leia think that it's okay for him to *come home*, not just leave the FO life, but come home, they have to think that he's at least somewhat safe to be around and not beyond hope. But couldn't they have put that together earlier? Also, Leia has an insurgency force at her disposal. She didn't have to wait for Han, she could have tried to extract Kylo at some point because she felt the light in him.

And Luke, who saved Vader, who was a million times worse than Kylo, doesn't do anything. He just runs away without apparently facing his sister and best friend.

Now maybe there will be some kind of flashback of them trying to get him back, but I don't think so.  I think that "waiting for you for a long time" line indicates no contact was made.  I think they actually did think the worst of him because somehow he reminded them of Vader in the past.

And with regards to Luke, if Kylo really did fall to his Vader ways, why couldn't Luke come back and tell his parents just that, even though he was guilty he didn't squelch the Vader in Kylo? I think he didn't come back because there was more to the story than Kylo just going dark all on his own.

I think Luke did send Artoo with a message. Luke kneeling with the mechanical hand is kind of like the hell version of Leia putting the flash drive (or whatever) in Artoo in ANH. And I think Artoo did see bad stuff, hence his catatonic shutdown.
@SoloSideCousin

Also Han's reaction to Ben stabbing him with a lightsaber was the one of forgiveness. And words from junior novelization that Han hoped Ben would forgive him some day. There is definitely more that than meets the eye and Han feels responsible for this situation, Leia too with admitting that sending him to Luke was a mistake. Luke obviously feels responsibilitybut it's weird neither of them tried to bring Ben back or contacted him.
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Re: What REALLY happened at Luke's Jedi "Let's Not Call it an Academy" Place...your thoughts?

Post by Cowgirlsamurai on Thu Oct 19, 2017 5:53 pm

@SoloSideCousin wrote:
@Night Huntress wrote:
@fuhry wrote:
Han knows that Ben 'destroyed it all'.  But the only beings that were there that are still alive are Ben, Luke, and R2D2, and R2's not talking.   Leia and Han are left to wonder, and to try to piece it all together.  
@fuhry

Didn't any of you wonder if Han and Leia tried to contact Ben after what happened? scratch
Didn't they try to speak to him at least? Hear his version of what occurred on that day?

I had the impression the first time his parents confronted him was Han in TFA on that bridge- which is...strange. 6 Years and they just live their lives as if he never existed? Leia as the leader of the Resistance and Han smuggling? Nope

I also wonder if Luke told them personally, or if he just sent a message and went into exile directly
@Night Huntress

The implication that none of them tried to reach him *after * the incident has always been a big problem for me too. I mean he hadn't been on the dark side road that long. They could have tried to get through to him, at least ask him "What the hell are you doing?"

The OT3 spent their lives rescuing people, but no one seems to have thought of rescuing Kylo/Ben for 6 years. I mean if Han and Leia think that it's okay for him to *come home*, not just leave the FO life, but come home, they have to think that he's at least somewhat safe to be around and not beyond hope. But couldn't they have put that together earlier? Also, Leia has an insurgency force at her disposal. She didn't have to wait for Han, she could have tried to extract Kylo at some point because she felt the light in him.

And Luke, who saved Vader, who was a million times worse than Kylo, doesn't do anything. He just runs away without apparently facing his sister and best friend.

Now maybe there will be some kind of flashback of them trying to get him back, but I don't think so.  I think that "waiting for you for a long time" line indicates no contact was made.  I think they actually did think the worst of him because somehow he reminded them of Vader in the past.

And with regards to Luke, if Kylo really did fall to his Vader ways, why couldn't Luke come back and tell his parents just that, even though he was guilty he didn't squelch the Vader in Kylo? I think he didn't come back because there was more to the story than Kylo just going dark all on his own.

I think Luke did send Artoo with a message. Luke kneeling with the mechanical hand is kind of like the hell version of Leia putting the flash drive (or whatever) in Artoo in ANH. And I think Artoo did see bad stuff, hence his catatonic shutdown.
@SoloSideCousin

Doesn't the novelization mention that Han hadn't even seen his son as an adult before THAT moment? Or am I making that up? I got the impression that Han wasn't around much before Ben was sent to Uncle Luke. Then he didn't see him at all the time he was WITH Luke. And then still never saw him after his fall to the dark side. Why the hell did Han do nothing?
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Re: What REALLY happened at Luke's Jedi "Let's Not Call it an Academy" Place...your thoughts?

Post by SoloSideCousin on Thu Oct 19, 2017 5:58 pm

@Cowgirlsamurai wrote:
@SoloSideCousin wrote:
@Night Huntress wrote:
@fuhry wrote:
Han knows that Ben 'destroyed it all'.  But the only beings that were there that are still alive are Ben, Luke, and R2D2, and R2's not talking.   Leia and Han are left to wonder, and to try to piece it all together.  
@fuhry

Didn't any of you wonder if Han and Leia tried to contact Ben after what happened? scratch
Didn't they try to speak to him at least? Hear his version of what occurred on that day?

I had the impression the first time his parents confronted him was Han in TFA on that bridge- which is...strange. 6 Years and they just live their lives as if he never existed? Leia as the leader of the Resistance and Han smuggling? Nope

I also wonder if Luke told them personally, or if he just sent a message and went into exile directly
@Night Huntress

The implication that none of them tried to reach him *after * the incident has always been a big problem for me too. I mean he hadn't been on the dark side road that long. They could have tried to get through to him, at least ask him "What the hell are you doing?"

The OT3 spent their lives rescuing people, but no one seems to have thought of rescuing Kylo/Ben for 6 years. I mean if Han and Leia think that it's okay for him to *come home*, not just leave the FO life, but come home, they have to think that he's at least somewhat safe to be around and not beyond hope. But couldn't they have put that together earlier? Also, Leia has an insurgency force at her disposal. She didn't have to wait for Han, she could have tried to extract Kylo at some point because she felt the light in him.

And Luke, who saved Vader, who was a million times worse than Kylo, doesn't do anything. He just runs away without apparently facing his sister and best friend.

Now maybe there will be some kind of flashback of them trying to get him back, but I don't think so.  I think that "waiting for you for a long time" line indicates no contact was made.  I think they actually did think the worst of him because somehow he reminded them of Vader in the past.

And with regards to Luke, if Kylo really did fall to his Vader ways, why couldn't Luke come back and tell his parents just that, even though he was guilty he didn't squelch the Vader in Kylo? I think he didn't come back because there was more to the story than Kylo just going dark all on his own.

I think Luke did send Artoo with a message. Luke kneeling with the mechanical hand is kind of like the hell version of Leia putting the flash drive (or whatever) in Artoo in ANH. And I think Artoo did see bad stuff, hence his catatonic shutdown.
@SoloSideCousin

Doesn't the novelization mention that Han hadn't even seen his son as an adult before THAT moment? Or am I making that up? I got the impression that Han wasn't around much before Ben was sent to Uncle Luke. Then he didn't see him at all the time he was WITH Luke. And then still never saw him after his fall to the dark side. Why the hell did Han do nothing?
@Cowgirlsamurai

No, you're right on all of it. Then there was Bloodline where Leia was going to retire and nobody thought to visit Ben. It's almost like how parents used to treat their special needs kids decades ago. They would send them to an institution and not visit them because somehow that "was for the best." If Ben did have raw powah, he starts to look like the dog you can't quite control that you send to live with Cesar the Dog Whisperer, with Luke apparently poorly playing the role of Cesar.
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Re: What REALLY happened at Luke's Jedi "Let's Not Call it an Academy" Place...your thoughts?

Post by Cowgirlsamurai on Thu Oct 19, 2017 6:09 pm

@SoloSideCousin wrote:
@Cowgirlsamurai wrote:
@SoloSideCousin wrote:
@Night Huntress wrote:
@fuhry wrote:
Han knows that Ben 'destroyed it all'.  But the only beings that were there that are still alive are Ben, Luke, and R2D2, and R2's not talking.   Leia and Han are left to wonder, and to try to piece it all together.  
@fuhry

Didn't any of you wonder if Han and Leia tried to contact Ben after what happened? scratch
Didn't they try to speak to him at least? Hear his version of what occurred on that day?

I had the impression the first time his parents confronted him was Han in TFA on that bridge- which is...strange. 6 Years and they just live their lives as if he never existed? Leia as the leader of the Resistance and Han smuggling? Nope

I also wonder if Luke told them personally, or if he just sent a message and went into exile directly
@Night Huntress

The implication that none of them tried to reach him *after * the incident has always been a big problem for me too. I mean he hadn't been on the dark side road that long. They could have tried to get through to him, at least ask him "What the hell are you doing?"

The OT3 spent their lives rescuing people, but no one seems to have thought of rescuing Kylo/Ben for 6 years. I mean if Han and Leia think that it's okay for him to *come home*, not just leave the FO life, but come home, they have to think that he's at least somewhat safe to be around and not beyond hope. But couldn't they have put that together earlier? Also, Leia has an insurgency force at her disposal. She didn't have to wait for Han, she could have tried to extract Kylo at some point because she felt the light in him.

And Luke, who saved Vader, who was a million times worse than Kylo, doesn't do anything. He just runs away without apparently facing his sister and best friend.

Now maybe there will be some kind of flashback of them trying to get him back, but I don't think so.  I think that "waiting for you for a long time" line indicates no contact was made.  I think they actually did think the worst of him because somehow he reminded them of Vader in the past.

And with regards to Luke, if Kylo really did fall to his Vader ways, why couldn't Luke come back and tell his parents just that, even though he was guilty he didn't squelch the Vader in Kylo? I think he didn't come back because there was more to the story than Kylo just going dark all on his own.

I think Luke did send Artoo with a message. Luke kneeling with the mechanical hand is kind of like the hell version of Leia putting the flash drive (or whatever) in Artoo in ANH. And I think Artoo did see bad stuff, hence his catatonic shutdown.
@SoloSideCousin

Doesn't the novelization mention that Han hadn't even seen his son as an adult before THAT moment? Or am I making that up? I got the impression that Han wasn't around much before Ben was sent to Uncle Luke. Then he didn't see him at all the time he was WITH Luke. And then still never saw him after his fall to the dark side. Why the hell did Han do nothing?
@Cowgirlsamurai

No, you're right on all of it. Then there was Bloodline where Leia was going to retire and nobody thought to visit Ben. It's almost like how parents used to treat their special needs kids decades ago. They would send them to an institution and not visit them because somehow that "was for the best." If Ben did have raw powah, he starts to look like the dog you can't quite control that you send to live with Cesar the Dog Whisperer, with Luke apparently poorly playing the role of Cesar.
@SoloSideCousin

I don't want to say it seems out of character of Han and Leia to do nothing, but... Han Solo who risked his life to free the Wookies? Saved Leia in Bloodline? Helped the Rebels when he didn't have to? Wouldn't go on a mission to retrieve Ben from the First Order? The "Too much Vader in him," line makes it seem like Han feared his own son. Maybe that explain some of it... scratch
I can't believe Leia was scared of him though. She seems like the type to go after him as well, although maybe that's what she wants Luke to do.
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Re: What REALLY happened at Luke's Jedi "Let's Not Call it an Academy" Place...your thoughts?

Post by Night Huntress on Thu Oct 19, 2017 6:32 pm

@Cowgirlsamurai wrote:
I don't want to say it seems out of character of Han and Leia to do nothing, but... Han Solo who risked his life to free the Wookies? Saved Leia in Bloodline? Helped the Rebels when he didn't have to? Wouldn't go on a mission to retrieve Ben from the First Order? The "Too much Vader in him," line makes it seem like Han feared his own son. Maybe that explain some of it... scratch
I can't believe Leia was scared of him though. She seems like the type to go after him as well, although maybe that's what she wants Luke to do.
@Cowgirlsamurai

That's what I don't get at all- why didn't they try to retrieve him from the FO? Even if they can't turn him back, at least that would prevent him from doing more damage.
I'm really pissed at Han, Leia and Luke for that and hope they'll come up with a good explanation.
Maybe they couldn't find him or something like that- but it was never mentioned they even searched for him at all.
Han didn't say "We've been looking for you so long- finally I found you..." or he could have said to Leia when they met on Takodana "Leia, I found him! He was here!" No, it sounded somewhat... I don't know. I don't know what to think at all.
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Re: What REALLY happened at Luke's Jedi "Let's Not Call it an Academy" Place...your thoughts?

Post by ISeeAnIsland on Thu Oct 19, 2017 6:45 pm

@Night Huntress wrote:
@Cowgirlsamurai wrote:
I don't want to say it seems out of character of Han and Leia to do nothing, but... Han Solo who risked his life to free the Wookies? Saved Leia in Bloodline? Helped the Rebels when he didn't have to? Wouldn't go on a mission to retrieve Ben from the First Order? The "Too much Vader in him," line makes it seem like Han feared his own son. Maybe that explain some of it... scratch
I can't believe Leia was scared of him though. She seems like the type to go after him as well, although maybe that's what she wants Luke to do.
@Cowgirlsamurai

That's what I don't get at all- why didn't they try to retrieve him from the FO? Even if they can't turn him back, at least that would prevent him from doing more damage.
I'm really pissed at Han, Leia and Luke for that and hope they'll come up with a good explanation.
Maybe they couldn't find him or something like that- but it was never mentioned they even searched for him at all.
Han didn't say "We've been looking for you so long- finally I found you..." or he could have said to Leia when they met on Takodana "Leia, I found him! He was here!" No, it sounded somewhat... I don't know. I don't know what to think at all.
@Night Huntress

Han's reaction to seeing Kylo on Takodona seemed to imply that he (and Leia) knew that Kylo was with the First Order. And my understanding is that in the new canon comics (like the Poe Dameron ones), Kylo is a known enforcer within the FO (although probably only those close to Leia know his real identity).

My guess is that there was some sort of indoctrination period between Ben's fall at the temple and his reemergence as Kylo Ren with the FO. Perhaps he seemed to disappear after the temple incident (maybe Han and Leia even thought that he'd died, too, for a while...or maybe they searched for him with no success)...and then at some point a few years ago, "Kylo Ren" emerged, shocking Leia. (Han would have already split at this point.)
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Re: What REALLY happened at Luke's Jedi "Let's Not Call it an Academy" Place...your thoughts?

Post by SoloSideCousin on Thu Oct 19, 2017 6:48 pm

@Cowgirlsamurai wrote:
@SoloSideCousin wrote:
@Cowgirlsamurai wrote:
@SoloSideCousin wrote:
@Night Huntress wrote:
@fuhry wrote:
Han knows that Ben 'destroyed it all'.  But the only beings that were there that are still alive are Ben, Luke, and R2D2, and R2's not talking.   Leia and Han are left to wonder, and to try to piece it all together.  
@fuhry

Didn't any of you wonder if Han and Leia tried to contact Ben after what happened? scratch
Didn't they try to speak to him at least? Hear his version of what occurred on that day?

I had the impression the first time his parents confronted him was Han in TFA on that bridge- which is...strange. 6 Years and they just live their lives as if he never existed? Leia as the leader of the Resistance and Han smuggling? Nope

I also wonder if Luke told them personally, or if he just sent a message and went into exile directly
@Night Huntress

The implication that none of them tried to reach him *after * the incident has always been a big problem for me too. I mean he hadn't been on the dark side road that long. They could have tried to get through to him, at least ask him "What the hell are you doing?"

The OT3 spent their lives rescuing people, but no one seems to have thought of rescuing Kylo/Ben for 6 years. I mean if Han and Leia think that it's okay for him to *come home*, not just leave the FO life, but come home, they have to think that he's at least somewhat safe to be around and not beyond hope. But couldn't they have put that together earlier? Also, Leia has an insurgency force at her disposal. She didn't have to wait for Han, she could have tried to extract Kylo at some point because she felt the light in him.

And Luke, who saved Vader, who was a million times worse than Kylo, doesn't do anything. He just runs away without apparently facing his sister and best friend.

Now maybe there will be some kind of flashback of them trying to get him back, but I don't think so.  I think that "waiting for you for a long time" line indicates no contact was made.  I think they actually did think the worst of him because somehow he reminded them of Vader in the past.

And with regards to Luke, if Kylo really did fall to his Vader ways, why couldn't Luke come back and tell his parents just that, even though he was guilty he didn't squelch the Vader in Kylo? I think he didn't come back because there was more to the story than Kylo just going dark all on his own.

I think Luke did send Artoo with a message. Luke kneeling with the mechanical hand is kind of like the hell version of Leia putting the flash drive (or whatever) in Artoo in ANH. And I think Artoo did see bad stuff, hence his catatonic shutdown.
@SoloSideCousin

Doesn't the novelization mention that Han hadn't even seen his son as an adult before THAT moment? Or am I making that up? I got the impression that Han wasn't around much before Ben was sent to Uncle Luke. Then he didn't see him at all the time he was WITH Luke. And then still never saw him after his fall to the dark side. Why the hell did Han do nothing?
@Cowgirlsamurai

No, you're right on all of it. Then there was Bloodline where Leia was going to retire and nobody thought to visit Ben. It's almost like how parents used to treat their special needs kids decades ago. They would send them to an institution and not visit them because somehow that "was for the best." If Ben did have raw powah, he starts to look like the dog you can't quite control that you send to live with Cesar the Dog Whisperer, with Luke apparently poorly playing the role of Cesar.
@SoloSideCousin

I don't want to say it seems out of character of Han and Leia to do nothing, but... Han Solo who risked his life to free the Wookies? Saved Leia in Bloodline? Helped the Rebels when he didn't have to? Wouldn't go on a mission to retrieve Ben from the First Order? The "Too much Vader in him," line makes it seem like Han feared his own son. Maybe that explain some of it... scratch
I can't believe Leia was scared of him though. She seems like the type to go after him as well, although maybe that's what she wants Luke to do.
@Cowgirlsamurai

I agree. I think that there was fear of their own kid. The force stuff was alienating to Han in the Aftermath books, and he had been tortured by Vader as had his wife and friend.

Also, you can argue from Bloodline that Leia has significant post traumatic symptoms from the war and being tortured by Vader even though it's 20 years later. In addition, she has serious denial issues about Vader being her father until  she has a kind of realization and could somewhat wonder *why* he fell at the end of Bloodline. I think prior to that she lived like Vader had nothing to do with her because if she did she'd have to acknowledge that, she and her family might have Vader traits. Ben showing out of control powers probably seemed pretty Vaderish.  The denial part of her might have contributed to her sending him away because she just couldn't bear to be reminded that she and her kid were Vader's blood, so she might have rationalized sending him away under the "it'll be good for him" when a big part of her just didn't want to see her son with that power.

Also, to make matters worse, if you read the early crawl, she wanted to find Luke to fight the FO, not find her son. Now maybe fighting the FO would have the byproduct of getting to her son ... But if Han could do it, she didn't need Luke. And if Han could do it, so could she. Maybe with a special forces team, but she could have gone in as well. The fact that she didn't risk herself like that makes me think she was putting the galaxy before her son again.
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