TLJ - Nailing down the timeline (NO SPOILERS)

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Post by Kylo Men on Sun 15 Oct 2017, 9:31 pm

Doesn't the line about kill the past, assuming it is directed at Rey, indicate she totally comes to him for guidance, and possibly to probe her mind about her parents?

That's how I take it.

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Post by Acritiqua on Sun 15 Oct 2017, 9:46 pm

To me the trailer implies that the two of them may very well bridge some gap or come to some understanding of one another and their raw powers. I don't dare take it very literally because those clips are spliced together. It's unclear who Kylo is reaching out to (I assume/hope Rey) and I think Rey says that line earlier in the movie. Rey may need to find her own inner guide rather than looking outside herself so much.
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Post by Night Huntress on Mon 16 Oct 2017, 1:24 am

@Kylo Men wrote:Doesn't the line about kill the past, assuming it is directed at Rey, indicate she totally comes to him for guidance, and possibly to probe her mind about her parents?

That's how I take it.
@Kylo Men

yes, that's possible- he did see into her mind and her deepest thoughts/dreams even though she tried to resist at that time during the interrogation. What would he be able to see if she let him into her mind freely?

Oh I would love to see such a scene! Winks
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Post by reylo1992 on Mon 16 Oct 2017, 6:53 am

@Night Huntress wrote:
@Kylo Men wrote:Doesn't the line about kill the past, assuming it is directed at Rey, indicate she totally comes to him for guidance, and possibly to probe her mind about her parents?

That's how I take it.
@Kylo Men

yes, that's possible- he did see into her mind and her deepest thoughts/dreams even though she tried to resist at that time during the interrogation. What would he be able to see if she let him into her mind freely?

Oh I would love to see such a scene! Winks
@Night Huntress

Anakin Skywalker post in The Last Jedi thread made me think about the timeline in regard to the possible time gap there could be during the movie.

Things don't go exactly as planed and lead Kylo for some reason to offer his hand to Rey. Since they are supposed to be ennemis as Kylo arrives on Ahch-To, there is a long road before they come to a real understanding, I would suggest that Rey doesn't necessarily comes to him for guidance on Ahch-To. He may try to reach out to her because something cool down their mutual animosity but she may refuse a second time although she is deeply conflicted this time. So they could end up the Ahch-To arc no more as fierce ennemies but still not as allies yet. I can't imagine Rey accepting his offer as easily despite her own conflict. And she needs someone to teach her how to master this raw power within her. This is not something that can be teached only once and/or in a few lapse of time. It requires time and patience to build that relationship of trust and get effective results from the teaching. And I can't imagine Rey leaving the Resistance and her ideals to follow Kylo.

So considering that there is a time gap somewhere in the movie, I would suggest that the Ahch-To arc ends up with both of them leaving Ahch-To separately. Rey joins to the Resistance on Crait since they established their new base there after the D'Qar battle. Rey  informs Leia that something odd is going on with Luke and explain the reasons why she couldn't bring him there. Meanwhile, Kylo comes back to the FO and report to Snoke the outcome of his mission. Maybe that the goal wasnt to kill Luke but destroy something on Ahch-To and he succeeded? And then, there could be the time gap explaining Rey's new outfit.

And maybe that despite their physically separation, Rey would have reconsidered Kylo's offer and finally accepted to let him mentor her through their connection. Since Luke wouldn't be there anymore and she needs guidance, she would come to the conclusion that Kylo is the best person to help. But it wouldn't be a decision taken in a moment of distraction because she feels lost. She would have thought about the offer and decided that this is the right thing to do. So maybe they would secretly begin to share their knowledges and thoughts freely, a little like two lovers secretly meeting. They would certainly argue much in the beginning bu slowly learn about their background and thus build some trust relationship.

This is how I see it: IMO, there is no point in having Rey joining Kylo suddenly like a poor girl crying for help because her mentor is rejecting her.The GA would certainly not like it at all? I suppose that she would first consider his offer and not necessarily accept it right after he proposes her. And we know from Daisy that Rey will take some decisions that the GA might not approve. Still, she would do it on her own will and not because she is kinda lost to Kylo.

Anyway, the idea of Reylo's secret Force dates despite remaining on opposite sides pleases me so much. That gives me some strong Romeo and Juliet vibe but also Anidala's in regard to secrecy and lie to their entourage.


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Post by FrolickingFizzgig on Mon 16 Oct 2017, 7:07 am

@Acritiqua wrote:I really dislike the idea of Snoke sucking Kylo's power or merging with him in any way and entirely robbing his character of agency and free will. I think that's a waste of Kylo's character. I would rather he kill Snoke (or Rey and he do it). If Kylo becomes main villain it doesn't necessarily mean he can't turn around and/or have an interesting relationship with Rey. It just wouldn't be an ending in which Rey and Kylo live happily ever after, and if I'm realistic with myself I don't think that ending is likely anyway.

I assume that Kylo is leading the invasion of Crait, or at least his part of it and doing so of his own free will. And it's at the end of the movie unless something about scene order can prove otherwise. So to me, it's a fact that I have to contend with in trying to figure out what is happening. It's not really a matter of what I want or like regarding Kylo but what his character seems to be doing near the end of the movie.

I'm also not convinced that Rey goes to Kylo for guidance. But it seems Kylo extends a peace offering or at least temporary truce and I see that as fitting with how I imagine his character. I never really believed he would just hate Rey forever and want to kill her. He feels compassion for her early in their association, he offers to teach her at the end of TFA without pushing the Dark Side even, and it make total sense that he will still be trying to reach out to her in some way.

The problem is working in how/why with this strange timeline.

Kylo is on Ahch-to and then leaves... I can't figure out if he and Rey leave together or separately. The easiest for me to imagine is that she leaves in his ship and he actually introduces her to Snoke and they had a plan about this. Luke warns it's not going to go the way Rey thinks.

Perhaps Chewie and his porg buddy leave on the Falcon for Crait later?

Somehow Rey gets out of the Snoke hold (there's an explosion due to Finn and Rose's work?) and reunites with Finn and they go to Crait.

Perhaps Rey and Chewie leave Crait near the end (when it's clear the Resistance has lost and needs to evacuate) but Leia stays there still coordinating things and so she meets with Kylo once he makes his way into the base.

In any case for Kylo it seems this may begin and end with Leia.

I personally didn't think anything new of Snoke from the trailer. I imagined him as being like he is one the trailer.
@Acritiqua
I think most people who imagine this outcome assume IX would involve saving Ben from Snoke for real, so it would be temporary.

Personally, I think it's going to take the whole movie for Kylo's heel-faced-turn and the hand-scene to occur and make sense so I'm not getting hung up on him still being with the FO on Crait. It's a good thing for his decision to take more time because once it happens it'll be final. I'm iffy about scenarios of it happening earlier in the film because, yeah, he's on Crait with the FO, and any hastier choice could end up being temporary as Kylo tries to reconcile what's right for him. Letting go of something you've devoted yourself to and were convinced was right isn't easy, patricide or otherwise. He's still going to be huffing and puffing (with some sad contemplative shots too, of course) for most of this movie. It also looks like he gets hurt somewhere between the beginning and walking on Crait because he's limping, so I wonder who does that. Snoke, Rey, Luke? They are the only contenders, IMO.
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Post by DarthRen on Mon 16 Oct 2017, 7:07 am

If Kylo reaches out to Rey, she accepts ... Ach-To is too soon for both. Kylo suddenly be like that would be out of character and Rey is not some poor girl, there will be journey to that scene of her accepting his guidance. Narratively it has much bigger impact if it is towards the end with nobody around, it's an intimate moment. This is why I don't buy that Luke is there.
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Post by reylo1992 on Mon 16 Oct 2017, 8:45 am

@FrolickingFizzgig wrote:
@Acritiqua wrote:I really dislike the idea of Snoke sucking Kylo's power or merging with him in any way and entirely robbing his character of agency and free will. I think that's a waste of Kylo's character. I would rather he kill Snoke (or Rey and he do it). If Kylo becomes main villain it doesn't necessarily mean he can't turn around and/or have an interesting relationship with Rey. It just wouldn't be an ending in which Rey and Kylo live happily ever after, and if I'm realistic with myself I don't think that ending is likely anyway.

I assume that Kylo is leading the invasion of Crait, or at least his part of it and doing so of his own free will. And it's at the end of the movie unless something about scene order can prove otherwise. So to me, it's a fact that I have to contend with in trying to figure out what is happening. It's not really a matter of what I want or like regarding Kylo but what his character seems to be doing near the end of the movie.

I'm also not convinced that Rey goes to Kylo for guidance. But it seems Kylo extends a peace offering or at least temporary truce and I see that as fitting with how I imagine his character. I never really believed he would just hate Rey forever and want to kill her. He feels compassion for her early in their association, he offers to teach her at the end of TFA without pushing the Dark Side even, and it make total sense that he will still be trying to reach out to her in some way.

The problem is working in how/why with this strange timeline.

Kylo is on Ahch-to and then leaves... I can't figure out if he and Rey leave together or separately. The easiest for me to imagine is that she leaves in his ship and he actually introduces her to Snoke and they had a plan about this. Luke warns it's not going to go the way Rey thinks.

Perhaps Chewie and his porg buddy leave on the Falcon for Crait later?

Somehow Rey gets out of the Snoke hold (there's an explosion due to Finn and Rose's work?) and reunites with Finn and they go to Crait.

Perhaps Rey and Chewie leave Crait near the end (when it's clear the Resistance has lost and needs to evacuate) but Leia stays there still coordinating things and so she meets with Kylo once he makes his way into the base.

In any case for Kylo it seems this may begin and end with Leia.

I personally didn't think anything new of Snoke from the trailer. I imagined him as being like he is one the trailer.
@Acritiqua
I think most people who imagine this outcome assume IX would involve saving Ben from Snoke for real, so it would be temporary.

Personally, I think it's going to take the whole movie for Kylo's heel-faced-turn and the hand-scene to occur and make sense so I'm not getting hung up on him still being with the FO on Crait. It's a good thing for his decision to take more time because once it happens it'll be final. I'm iffy about scenarios of it happening earlier in the film because, yeah, he's on Crait with the FO, and any hastier choice could end up being temporary as Kylo tries to reconcile what's right for him. Letting go of something you've devoted yourself to and were convinced was right isn't easy, patricide or otherwise. He's still going to be huffing and puffing (with some sad contemplative shots too, of course) for most of this movie. It also looks like he gets hurt somewhere between the beginning and walking on Crait because he's limping, so I wonder who does that. Snoke, Rey, Luke? They are the only contenders, IMO.
@FrolickingFizzgig

Is it sure he is limping on Crait? I can't figure out if he is limping or if it is his natural way of walking

The way he moves seems to me like his "natural" way of walking. It actually reminds me very much on the way he walked in TFA when he led the troops to find Han: he wiggled and waged his head a lot as if he was saying showing: see who is the leader there? It was pointed out that Adam worked to make Kylo's walk kinda beasty if I may describe it so. This is rather what I see in the way he moves his hips so much while walking.


These are the two things that actually strike me in this shot:
- The "beasty" walk
==> As if he was saying "here comes the leader. You better follow me". The walk is fast, firm and determined
- The cape
==> I know that I have already talked about it but this detail bothers me a lot. IMO, the combination of the cape and the "beasty" walk doesn't scream redemption for Kylo in the end of TFA although he is shown as a very conflicted young man all along. So this is really strange to have him with this villain but sexy look toward the end of the movie.

Another suggestion: maybe this is actually Adam's way of walking. It seems to me that he naturally wiggled more from one side than anorher. So maybe this is something natural by him. Or it can be that Adam had a problem with his leg that day. In the audio comments of TPM, Georges Lucas revealed that Natalie Portman had hurt her foot on set and this is the reason why Padme was limping on Tatooine although that wasnt very stricking. But anyway that kind of thing can happen especially if one take account that the actors have action scenes.
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Post by DarthRen on Mon 16 Oct 2017, 9:03 am

For the record.

I do not like Snoke using Kylo in like taking over his body but it's a possibility given Han's vague line from TFA. Kylo as a main villain would require Snoke to die and that seems like a waste of promising and intriguing character. Again, not impossible but Snoke would be wasted and redemption almost impossible (I'm a fan of redemption stories and for Kylo to have one) or too close to Vader with a sacrifice after all the criticism of similarities between TFA and ANH. Happily ever after in all honesty doesn't seem likely to me for Kylo and Rey, there will be a bittersweet element to them, their relationship and bond. Just a personal opinion, not judging or lecturing anyone. Any of these scenarios can happen in the end.

What I like about us here, we analyze and are open to any possbility, and will try to appreciate for what its worth. Unlike some people, who wil spit on the movie, once it doesn't get their way. As long as the story is compelling, entertaining, fresh and exctiing. It wll be golod and a fun ride to be on.
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Post by PalmettoBlue on Mon 16 Oct 2017, 9:16 am

@DarthRen wrote:For the record.

I do not like Snoke using Kylo in like taking over his body but it's a possibility given Han's vague line from TFA. Kylo as a main villain would require Snoke to die and that seems like a waste of promising and intriguing character. Again, not impossible but Snoke would be wasted and redemption almost impossible (I'm a fan of redemption stories and for Kylo to have one) or too close to Vader with a sacrifice after all the criticism of similarities between TFA and ANH. Happily ever after in all honesty doesn't seem likely to me for Kylo and Rey, there will be a bittersweet element to them, their relationship and bond. Just a personal opinion, not judging or lecturing anyone. Any of these scenarios can happen in the end.

What I like about us here, we analyze and are open to any possbility, and will try to appreciate for what its worth. Unlike some people, who wil spit on the movie, once it doesn't get their way. As long as the story is compelling, entertaining, fresh and exctiing. It wll be golod and a fun ride to be on.
@DarthRen

Agreed.

Regarding the timeline - I have a sneaking suspicion this will be almost impossible to nail down with any specificity, especially if we are dealing with any flashbacks or visions.

I think I can comfortably say that:
1) Luke's taking the lightsaber is Act 1
2) Rey being tortured is Act 3 (that said, it could be a vision that Kylo has, and if that's the case, I still think Act 3, but all bets are off.)
3) Finn and Phasma "feels" like Act 3 to me.
4) Kylo and Silencer is Act 1.

That's literally all I've got. This trailer really didn't give away very much (vis a vis the timeline), although I'm sure my opinion will change after viewing the movie.
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Post by DarthRen on Mon 16 Oct 2017, 9:35 am

@PalmettoBlue wrote:
@DarthRen wrote:For the record.

I do not like Snoke using Kylo in like taking over his body but it's a possibility given Han's vague line from TFA. Kylo as a main villain would require Snoke to die and that seems like a waste of promising and intriguing character. Again, not impossible but Snoke would be wasted and redemption almost impossible (I'm a fan of redemption stories and for Kylo to have one) or too close to Vader with a sacrifice after all the criticism of similarities between TFA and ANH. Happily ever after in all honesty doesn't seem likely to me for Kylo and Rey, there will be a bittersweet element to them, their relationship and bond. Just a personal opinion, not judging or lecturing anyone. Any of these scenarios can happen in the end.

What I like about us here, we analyze and are open to any possbility, and will try to appreciate for what its worth. Unlike some people, who wil spit on the movie, once it doesn't get their way. As long as the story is compelling, entertaining, fresh and exctiing. It wll be golod and a fun ride to be on.
@DarthRen

Agreed.

Regarding the timeline - I have a sneaking suspicion this will be almost impossible to nail down with any specificity, especially if we are dealing with any flashbacks or visions.

I think I can comfortably say that:
1) Luke's taking the lightsaber is Act 1
2) Rey being tortured is Act 3 (that said, it could be a vision that Kylo has, and if that's the case, I still think Act 3, but all bets are off.)
3) Finn and Phasma "feels" like Act 3 to me.
4) Kylo and Silencer is Act 1.

That's literally all I've got. This trailer really didn't give away very much (vis a vis the timeline), although I'm sure my opinion will change after viewing the movie.
@PalmettoBlue

Kylo and Snoke throne room pep talk Act I.
Crait battle Act III.
Canto Bight Act II.
Kylo, Leia on D'Qar Act I.

We can say this also with a certainty.
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Post by PalmettoBlue on Mon 16 Oct 2017, 9:45 am

@DarthRen
So, here's our "master list" so far:

ACT I:
Snoke's pep talk in the throne room
Kylo smashes helmet?
Kylo, Leia, Silencer on D'Qar
Luke, Rey, lightsaber on Ahch-To

ACT II:
Canto Bight (no footage)

ACT III:
Battle on Crait
Rey tortured
Finn and Phasma

What else can we add? Change?


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Post by DarthRen on Mon 16 Oct 2017, 10:52 am

@PalmettoBlue wrote:@DarthRen
So, here's our "master list" so far:

ACT I:
Snoke's pep talk in the throne room
Kylo smashes helmet?
Kylo, Leia, Silencer on D'Qar
Luke, Rey, lightsaber on Ahch-To

ACT II:
Canto Bight (no footage)

ACT III:
Battle on Crait
Rey tortured
Finn and Phasma

What else can we add? Change?
@PalmettoBlue

Kylo on Crait and presumably in his shuttle Act III.
Rey and sea monster Act I.
Rey and Force Tree Act I.

Apart from this...

Hut scene or anything with Kylo to me seems beginnig of Act II but so far hard to determined, could be end of Act I but Luke and Rey need a time, Kylo to do what he needs to do.
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Post by Acritiqua on Mon 16 Oct 2017, 1:19 pm

I personally would love Kylo reaching out to Rey to be at the very end of the movie, which was initially how I imagined it before I started trying to figure out when and where things are happening. And I love the idea of Kylo remaining steadfast in his offer to help Rey from TFA as well as the idea of them figuring something out together through their mysterious raw power connection.

And it's so difficult to see that look being to anyone but Rey.
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Post by bashfulblueeyes3 on Mon 16 Oct 2017, 1:36 pm

I was thinking about Kylo being on Ach-to and that maybe him and Rey do get close, but Kylo says it's too late for him (I think it is one of the phrases in the force link). The FO comes to get him and that is how get gets back for the Crait battle. Rey goes back to the reissitance when she sees that Luke will not come with her or help. She meets Leia and tells her (that is why we see her sad face in the photograph). Rey finds that Finn and Rose are on a mission. Maybe Rey pulls a Luke and goes to help them, but gets caught (that toy has them altogether on Snoke's ship). Rey is tortured, Kylo rescues her and they fight the guards, but he helps them escape, then we see everyone on Crait later.?

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Post by vaderito on Mon 16 Oct 2017, 1:38 pm

@DarthRen You are right. they won't go back to Supremacy once they take off. It's done. Climax will have to be on Crait but it cannot be just Poe sliding under AT-AT and Chewie blowing up crystals. Where's a drama?
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Post by DarthRen on Mon 16 Oct 2017, 1:52 pm

@vaderito wrote:@DarthRen You are right. they won't go back to Supremacy once they take off. It's done. Climax will have to be on Crait but it cannot be just Poe sliding under AT-AT and Chewie blowing up crystals. Where's a drama?
@vaderito

Supremacy takes high priority but there is something strange going with Crait. Kylo marching with stormtroopers, shuttle. Finn, Rose and Rey all there. Snoke is gonna just disappear? Where is Luke in all of this?

Chewie blowing up things, Poe leading charge is not exactly a drama with two supporting characters. There has to be main characters involved. It has to be Kylo, Rey and Luke if Snoke is out of picture. Maybe Kylo tries to take control over FO and has some plan of his own.
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Post by reylo1992 on Mon 16 Oct 2017, 3:02 pm

@DarthRen wrote:
@vaderito wrote:@DarthRen You are right. they won't go back to Supremacy once they take off. It's done. Climax will have to be on Crait but it cannot be just Poe sliding under AT-AT and Chewie blowing up crystals. Where's a drama?
@vaderito

Supremacy takes high priority but there is something strange going with Crait. Kylo marching with stormtroopers, shuttle. Finn, Rose and Rey all there. Snoke is gonna just disappear? Where is Luke in all of this?

Chewie blowing up things, Poe leading charge is not exactly a drama with two supporting characters. There has to be main characters involved. It has to be Kylo, Rey and Luke if Snoke is out of picture. Maybe Kylo tries to take control over FO and has some plan of his own.
@DarthRen

I thought you dislike the idea of Kylo becoming more evil Wink

I wouldn't understand what's the point if Snoke comes out of picture for the final stage of the battle. That would be completely weird. The guy will order the FO to attack the Resistance on Crait so it doesn't seem like it's the Fo that will be attacked by surprise. And he decides to be in the middle of the Space battle with his ship although it is potentially dangerous. for him. The stake must be f****ing important to make him go there. I am pretty confident that he will find a way to come to Crait after the explosion of Supremacy because this is most probably the planet itself he has some interest in .

As for Kylo having his own plan: possible. I think it depends on the circumstances. Pretty clear that Kylo ain't set as the main villain of the ST. And yet, he seems to lead his troops with such a proud and determined way of walking. And the cape doesn't help to make him less villain-type
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Post by DarthRen on Mon 16 Oct 2017, 3:34 pm

@reylo1992 wrote:
@DarthRen wrote:
@vaderito wrote:@DarthRen You are right. they won't go back to Supremacy once they take off. It's done. Climax will have to be on Crait but it cannot be just Poe sliding under AT-AT and Chewie blowing up crystals. Where's a drama?
@vaderito

Supremacy takes high priority but there is something strange going with Crait. Kylo marching with stormtroopers, shuttle. Finn, Rose and Rey all there. Snoke is gonna just disappear? Where is Luke in all of this?

Chewie blowing up things, Poe leading charge is not exactly a drama with two supporting characters. There has to be main characters involved. It has to be Kylo, Rey and Luke if Snoke is out of picture. Maybe Kylo tries to take control over FO and has some plan of his own.
@DarthRen

I thought you dislike the idea of Kylo becoming more evil Wink

I wouldn't understand what's the point if Snoke comes out of picture for the final stage of the battle. That would be completely weird. The guy will order the FO to attack the Resistance on Crait so it doesn't seem like it's the Fo that will be attacked by surprise. And he decides to be in the middle of the Space battle with his ship although it is potentially dangerous. for him. The stake must be f****ing important to make him go there. I am pretty confident that he will find a way to come to Crait after the explosion of Supremacy because this is most probably the planet itself he has some interest in .

As for Kylo having his own plan: possible. I think it depends on the circumstances. Pretty clear that Kylo ain't set as the main villain of the ST. And yet, he seems to lead his troops with such a proud and determined way of walking. And the cape doesn't help to make him less villain-type
@reylo1992

I do not but my idea is more Kylo getting free from Snoke and doing things his own way ala what Anakin/Vader wanted. Rule the galaxy on his own. But if he becomes more evil, I mean we have to look at it as a possibility.

Whaever is on Crait, what Resistance has or Rey herself must be super important for his plan but I like the idea that Snoke is just an illusion and not really that close to the action. Some leakers said he's like alchymist or can create illusions. Basically he'd be there but at the same will be safe.

Then Kylo after his bertayal might do what Snoke intended or some stuff on his own. So he takes stormtroopers and march with them.
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Post by reylo1992 on Mon 16 Oct 2017, 3:41 pm

@DarthRen wrote:
@reylo1992 wrote:
@DarthRen wrote:
@vaderito wrote:@DarthRen You are right. they won't go back to Supremacy once they take off. It's done. Climax will have to be on Crait but it cannot be just Poe sliding under AT-AT and Chewie blowing up crystals. Where's a drama?
@vaderito

Supremacy takes high priority but there is something strange going with Crait. Kylo marching with stormtroopers, shuttle. Finn, Rose and Rey all there. Snoke is gonna just disappear? Where is Luke in all of this?

Chewie blowing up things, Poe leading charge is not exactly a drama with two supporting characters. There has to be main characters involved. It has to be Kylo, Rey and Luke if Snoke is out of picture. Maybe Kylo tries to take control over FO and has some plan of his own.
@DarthRen

I thought you dislike the idea of Kylo becoming more evil Wink

I wouldn't understand what's the point if Snoke comes out of picture for the final stage of the battle. That would be completely weird. The guy will order the FO to attack the Resistance on Crait so it doesn't seem like it's the Fo that will be attacked by surprise. And he decides to be in the middle of the Space battle with his ship although it is potentially dangerous. for him. The stake must be f****ing important to make him go there. I am pretty confident that he will find a way to come to Crait after the explosion of Supremacy because this is most probably the planet itself he has some interest in .

As for Kylo having his own plan: possible. I think it depends on the circumstances. Pretty clear that Kylo ain't set as the main villain of the ST. And yet, he seems to lead his troops with such a proud and determined way of walking. And the cape doesn't help to make him less villain-type
@reylo1992

I do not but my idea is more Kylo getting free from Snoke and doing things his own way ala what Anakin/Vader wanted. Rule the galaxy on his own. But if he becomes more evil, I mean we have to look at it as a possibility.

Whaever is on Crait, what Resistance has or Rey herself must be super important for his plan but I like the idea that Snoke is just an illusion and not really that close to the action. Some leakers said he's like alchymist or can create illusions. Basically he'd be there but at the same will be safe.

Then Kylo after his bertayal might do what Snoke intended or some stuff on his own. So he takes stormtroopers and march with them.
@DarthRen

That's a possibility.

What bothers me there is that a large part of the GA seems to see Kylo as the villain and seemed to forget the importance of Snoke. And yet, thetrailer made it pretty who is the creepy villain and who is the conflicted antagonist.

If that wasn't clear enough for the GA in TFA because some of Snoke's lines weren't in the movie, it seems to me that the message of the trailer was pretty clear. Same for Andy Serkis saying during an interview that the interviewer is "onto something" about what "Snoke really wants from Kylo Ren"

So it's strange to think that Snoke wouldn't be that important for the final stage. Or that he would be overthrown by Kylo. And having two villains potentially equally powerful and power-hungry, I don't know...

I guess that that shot about Kylo on Crait will make us think a lot regarding the timeline and Kylo's arc until it comes out.
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Post by Acritiqua on Mon 16 Oct 2017, 5:35 pm

I think that if Kylo freed himself from Snoke and did things his way it would actually be less evil than Snoke who I see as just about 100% evil. Kylo didn't really want to kill his father. Kylo doesn't want to kill his mother. What if... he didn't have to because there's no more Snoke to assign him things he doesn't really want to do and that afterwards don't have the effect promised?

Maybe Kylo becomes disenchanted with Snoke. Maybe he realizes after facing Rey on Ahch-to that he is sick of constantly having to do things he doesn't want to do to prove himself to Snoke. When will Snoke ever tell him he's finally proven himself? It seems never. Rey on the other hand is a source of hope for Kylo even if he still is hoping to control the galaxy himself. Maybe Kylo realizes the question isn't if he is worthy of Snoke, but is Rey more worthy of his devotion than Snoke is.

Perhaps TLJ makes him choose between his mother and Snoke (who lives or dies); between Rey and Snoke (who would he rather ally with if he could).

The problem is I don't think killing Snoke is easy.

If Snoke were out of the picture for IX the key conflict is Rey vs. Kylo in which they both have feelings for one another that are not completely adversarial, meaning they may have to work out a balance.

If Snoke is still in the picture in IX, did he agree with whatever Kylo did in VIII and what was the penalty?

If Snoke and Kylo are on the same side in VIII, he can't really "team up with Rey." I don't think that's what Snoke would want.

If Snoke and Kylo have problem between them that makes Kylo choose something (creates drama).
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Post by reylo1992 on Mon 16 Oct 2017, 5:52 pm

@Acritiqua wrote:I think that if Kylo freed himself from Snoke and did things his way it would actually be less evil than Snoke who I see as just about 100% evil. Kylo didn't really want to kill his father. Kylo doesn't want to kill his mother. What if... he didn't have to because there's no more Snoke to assign him things he doesn't really want to do and that afterwards don't have the effect promised?

Maybe Kylo becomes disenchanted with Snoke. Maybe he realizes after facing Rey on Ahch-to that he is sick of constantly having to do things he doesn't want to do to prove himself to Snoke. When will Snoke ever tell him he's finally proven himself? It seems never. Rey on the other hand is a source of hope for Kylo even if he still is hoping to control the galaxy himself. Maybe Kylo realizes the question isn't if he is worthy of Snoke, but is Rey more worthy of his devotion than Snoke is.

Perhaps TLJ makes him choose between his mother and Snoke (who lives or dies); between Rey and Snoke (who would he rather ally with if he could).

The problem is I don't think killing Snoke is easy.

If Snoke were out of the picture for IX the key conflict is Rey vs. Kylo in which they both have feelings for one another that are not completely adversarial, meaning they may have to work out a balance.

If Snoke is still in the picture in IX, did he agree with whatever Kylo did in VIII and what was the penalty?

If Snoke and Kylo are on the same side in VIII, he can't really "team up with Rey." I don't think that's what Snoke would want.

If Snoke and Kylo have problem between them that makes Kylo choose something (creates drama).
@Acritiqua

The problem with Snoke out of picture with Episode IX is the fact that they build such a big mystery on that villain. They make the actor say that  this villain has a huge agenda. They imply that he targeted Ben even before his birth, that is to say  quickly after the fall of the Empire. They imply that he created the FO at least 20 years ago when Baby Finn was taken away from his family. They imply that this villain is wise and aware of the mistake of the past mistakes of the Empire. Thus, they imply they he wouldn't do the same mistakes with than Palpatine did with Anakin. They show him torturing Rey in the most creepy...

...just to have coming out picture in some way in Episode VIII scratch

I don't mean that it is impossible but that would be such a waste, unless it appears that Snoke and Luke do have some connection since Luke's arc is pretty unclear. That's the big problem: where is Luke's place in all of this?  



Last edited by reylo1992 on Mon 16 Oct 2017, 5:56 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post by Acritiqua on Mon 16 Oct 2017, 5:55 pm

@reylo1992 - All good points.
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Post by DarthRen on Mon 16 Oct 2017, 5:56 pm

@reylo1992 wrote:
@DarthRen wrote:
@reylo1992 wrote:
@DarthRen wrote:
@vaderito wrote:@DarthRen You are right. they won't go back to Supremacy once they take off. It's done. Climax will have to be on Crait but it cannot be just Poe sliding under AT-AT and Chewie blowing up crystals. Where's a drama?
@vaderito

Supremacy takes high priority but there is something strange going with Crait. Kylo marching with stormtroopers, shuttle. Finn, Rose and Rey all there. Snoke is gonna just disappear? Where is Luke in all of this?

Chewie blowing up things, Poe leading charge is not exactly a drama with two supporting characters. There has to be main characters involved. It has to be Kylo, Rey and Luke if Snoke is out of picture. Maybe Kylo tries to take control over FO and has some plan of his own.
@DarthRen

I thought you dislike the idea of Kylo becoming more evil Wink

I wouldn't understand what's the point if Snoke comes out of picture for the final stage of the battle. That would be completely weird. The guy will order the FO to attack the Resistance on Crait so it doesn't seem like it's the Fo that will be attacked by surprise. And he decides to be in the middle of the Space battle with his ship although it is potentially dangerous. for him. The stake must be f****ing important to make him go there. I am pretty confident that he will find a way to come to Crait after the explosion of Supremacy because this is most probably the planet itself he has some interest in .

As for Kylo having his own plan: possible. I think it depends on the circumstances. Pretty clear that Kylo ain't set as the main villain of the ST. And yet, he seems to lead his troops with such a proud and determined way of walking. And the cape doesn't help to make him less villain-type
@reylo1992

I do not but my idea is more Kylo getting free from Snoke and doing things his own way ala what Anakin/Vader wanted. Rule the galaxy on his own. But if he becomes more evil, I mean we have to look at it as a possibility.

Whaever is on Crait, what Resistance has or Rey herself must be super important for his plan but I like the idea that Snoke is just an illusion and not really that close to the action. Some leakers said he's like alchymist or can create illusions. Basically he'd be there but at the same will be safe.

Then Kylo after his bertayal might do what Snoke intended or some stuff on his own. So he takes stormtroopers and march with them.
@DarthRen

That's a possibility.

What bothers me there is that a large part of the GA seems to see Kylo as the villain and seemed to forget the importance of Snoke. And yet, thetrailer made it pretty who is the creepy villain and who is the conflicted antagonist.

If that wasn't clear enough for the GA in TFA because some of Snoke's lines weren't in the movie, it seems to me that the message of the trailer was pretty clear. Same for Andy Serkis saying during an interview that the interviewer is "onto something" about what "Snoke really wants from Kylo Ren"

So it's strange to think that Snoke wouldn't be that important for the final stage. Or that he would be overthrown by Kylo. And having two villains potentially equally powerful and power-hungry, I don't know...

I guess that that shot about Kylo on Crait will make us think a lot regarding the timeline and Kylo's arc until it comes out.
@reylo1992

But whatdoes he wants from him? That is the question. His powers, Rey, Luke, combinations of it or something else? Whatever it is, it ain't good.
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Post by reylo1992 on Mon 16 Oct 2017, 6:04 pm

@DarthRen wrote:
@reylo1992 wrote:
@DarthRen wrote:
@reylo1992 wrote:
@DarthRen wrote:
@vaderito wrote:@DarthRen You are right. they won't go back to Supremacy once they take off. It's done. Climax will have to be on Crait but it cannot be just Poe sliding under AT-AT and Chewie blowing up crystals. Where's a drama?
@vaderito

Supremacy takes high priority but there is something strange going with Crait. Kylo marching with stormtroopers, shuttle. Finn, Rose and Rey all there. Snoke is gonna just disappear? Where is Luke in all of this?

Chewie blowing up things, Poe leading charge is not exactly a drama with two supporting characters. There has to be main characters involved. It has to be Kylo, Rey and Luke if Snoke is out of picture. Maybe Kylo tries to take control over FO and has some plan of his own.
@DarthRen

I thought you dislike the idea of Kylo becoming more evil Wink

I wouldn't understand what's the point if Snoke comes out of picture for the final stage of the battle. That would be completely weird. The guy will order the FO to attack the Resistance on Crait so it doesn't seem like it's the Fo that will be attacked by surprise. And he decides to be in the middle of the Space battle with his ship although it is potentially dangerous. for him. The stake must be f****ing important to make him go there. I am pretty confident that he will find a way to come to Crait after the explosion of Supremacy because this is most probably the planet itself he has some interest in .

As for Kylo having his own plan: possible. I think it depends on the circumstances. Pretty clear that Kylo ain't set as the main villain of the ST. And yet, he seems to lead his troops with such a proud and determined way of walking. And the cape doesn't help to make him less villain-type
@reylo1992

I do not but my idea is more Kylo getting free from Snoke and doing things his own way ala what Anakin/Vader wanted. Rule the galaxy on his own. But if he becomes more evil, I mean we have to look at it as a possibility.

Whaever is on Crait, what Resistance has or Rey herself must be super important for his plan but I like the idea that Snoke is just an illusion and not really that close to the action. Some leakers said he's like alchymist or can create illusions. Basically he'd be there but at the same will be safe.

Then Kylo after his bertayal might do what Snoke intended or some stuff on his own. So he takes stormtroopers and march with them.
@DarthRen

That's a possibility.

What bothers me there is that a large part of the GA seems to see Kylo as the villain and seemed to forget the importance of Snoke. And yet, thetrailer made it pretty who is the creepy villain and who is the conflicted antagonist.

If that wasn't clear enough for the GA in TFA because some of Snoke's lines weren't in the movie, it seems to me that the message of the trailer was pretty clear. Same for Andy Serkis saying during an interview that the interviewer is "onto something" about what "Snoke really wants from Kylo Ren"

So it's strange to think that Snoke wouldn't be that important for the final stage. Or that he would be overthrown by Kylo. And having two villains potentially equally powerful and power-hungry, I don't know...

I guess that that shot about Kylo on Crait will make us think a lot regarding the timeline and Kylo's arc until it comes out.
@reylo1992

But whatdoes he wants from him? That is the question. His powers, Rey, Luke, combinations of it or something else? Whatever it is, it ain't good.
@DarthRen

I agree I think that's actually the question to think about  deeply to understand where the story is headed because this is what could drive that story.

What are the plans of this villain now that :
1) SKB has been destroyed
2) Skywalker could come back from one moment to another
3) A strong FS girl both represent a menace and an opportunity

And how does he intend to fulfill his long-term agenda with Kylo now that his "protege" has indeed passed the test - killed his father - but failed to keep aside his personal feelings.interests (hismother, the girl) to achieve his mission? That's where the story is headed IMO: Snoke's agenda will heavily impact the plot of the story, the different arcs and the timeline.

IMO, the destruction of SKB, the menace that represents Luke's comeback and the rising menace that Rey represents will push him to accelerate this agenda and try to find a drastic way to turn the table. Thus, the attack on D'Qar to fragilize the resistance, the plan to get rid of Luke/Rey on Ahch-To, the unknown activities of the FO with the rich assholes of Canto Bright and maybe the most important: "complete the training" of the protege (not with lightsaber skills I guess). But to do what ? And what is the importance of Crait in this? And why is it that important for him to be there personallyand not leading the battle by distance?
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Post by DarthRen on Mon 16 Oct 2017, 6:14 pm

@reylo1992 wrote:
@DarthRen wrote:
@reylo1992 wrote:
@DarthRen wrote:
@reylo1992 wrote:
@DarthRen wrote:
@vaderito wrote:@DarthRen You are right. they won't go back to Supremacy once they take off. It's done. Climax will have to be on Crait but it cannot be just Poe sliding under AT-AT and Chewie blowing up crystals. Where's a drama?
@vaderito

Supremacy takes high priority but there is something strange going with Crait. Kylo marching with stormtroopers, shuttle. Finn, Rose and Rey all there. Snoke is gonna just disappear? Where is Luke in all of this?

Chewie blowing up things, Poe leading charge is not exactly a drama with two supporting characters. There has to be main characters involved. It has to be Kylo, Rey and Luke if Snoke is out of picture. Maybe Kylo tries to take control over FO and has some plan of his own.
@DarthRen

I thought you dislike the idea of Kylo becoming more evil Wink

I wouldn't understand what's the point if Snoke comes out of picture for the final stage of the battle. That would be completely weird. The guy will order the FO to attack the Resistance on Crait so it doesn't seem like it's the Fo that will be attacked by surprise. And he decides to be in the middle of the Space battle with his ship although it is potentially dangerous. for him. The stake must be f****ing important to make him go there. I am pretty confident that he will find a way to come to Crait after the explosion of Supremacy because this is most probably the planet itself he has some interest in .

As for Kylo having his own plan: possible. I think it depends on the circumstances. Pretty clear that Kylo ain't set as the main villain of the ST. And yet, he seems to lead his troops with such a proud and determined way of walking. And the cape doesn't help to make him less villain-type
@reylo1992

I do not but my idea is more Kylo getting free from Snoke and doing things his own way ala what Anakin/Vader wanted. Rule the galaxy on his own. But if he becomes more evil, I mean we have to look at it as a possibility.

Whaever is on Crait, what Resistance has or Rey herself must be super important for his plan but I like the idea that Snoke is just an illusion and not really that close to the action. Some leakers said he's like alchymist or can create illusions. Basically he'd be there but at the same will be safe.

Then Kylo after his bertayal might do what Snoke intended or some stuff on his own. So he takes stormtroopers and march with them.
@DarthRen

That's a possibility.

What bothers me there is that a large part of the GA seems to see Kylo as the villain and seemed to forget the importance of Snoke. And yet, thetrailer made it pretty who is the creepy villain and who is the conflicted antagonist.

If that wasn't clear enough for the GA in TFA because some of Snoke's lines weren't in the movie, it seems to me that the message of the trailer was pretty clear. Same for Andy Serkis saying during an interview that the interviewer is "onto something" about what "Snoke really wants from Kylo Ren"

So it's strange to think that Snoke wouldn't be that important for the final stage. Or that he would be overthrown by Kylo. And having two villains potentially equally powerful and power-hungry, I don't know...

I guess that that shot about Kylo on Crait will make us think a lot regarding the timeline and Kylo's arc until it comes out.
@reylo1992

But whatdoes he wants from him? That is the question. His powers, Rey, Luke, combinations of it or something else? Whatever it is, it ain't good.
@DarthRen

I agree I think that's actually the question to think about deeply to understand where the story is headed because this is what could drive that story.

What are the plans of this villain now that :
1) SKB has been destroyed
2) Skywalker could come back from one moment to another
3) A strong FS girl both represent a menace and an opportunity

And how does he intend to fulfill his long-term agenda with Kylo now that his "protege" has indeed passed the test - killed his father - but failed to keep aside his personal feelings.interests (hismother, the girl) to achieve his mission? That's where the story is headed IMO: Snoke's agenda will heavily impact the plot of the story, the different arcs and the timeline.
@reylo1992

When Han said he's using himfor his power. It could be literally that he wants his powers or using those powers to get something. I mean he created SKB and invested a lot as you've said. So whatever he plans, it not only requires Kylo and his powers but also something else. Luke might know what since Snoke fear his return.

If Snoke wants Kylo's body, powers he could be invincible but it doesn't seem like it only thing. There is something bigger, more sinister than Palpatine's manipulations going on. Something Luke might wanted to find out. It would be good if we know if Snoke knew Luke before and what kind of role he exactly played, where he comes from.
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