The Last Jedi: Most controversial film since .....

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The Last Jedi: Most controversial film since .....

Post by Kylo Men on Sat 21 Oct - 5:10

If Reylo does happen, I think we need to acknowledge it's going to be mega-controversial. The Last Jedi might become the most controversial film since .... The Passion of the Christ .... Crash .... Basic Instinct .... The Last Temptation of Christ? I'm not sure.

I'd been assuming it would cause a rash of thinkpieces. Having visited another popular SW website yesterday, it dawned on me how outright passionately divisive it it's going to be, and how much hostility it's going to face, and I think it's much more than I figured. Given the number of people that are going to watch it, it may dwarf other controversial movies. The reaction to the trailer is just a taste of what's on its way. And not just inside the fandom. But out there, too.

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Re: The Last Jedi: Most controversial film since .....

Post by Nyx on Sat 21 Oct - 5:44

This is why I don't think full-blown romantic Reylo will happen in TLJ but rather in IX. TLJ will lay all the groundwork needed; Kylo's backstory and redemption, getting closer with Rey through their shared "raw power", reconciling with Leia, acceptance of the pull he feels towards the light side, maybe even ending TLJ on cordial terms with Finn (and Poe)- a prerequisite I believe being Rey's friends. TLJ will warm up the fandom to Reylo and I do believe that many people will leave the movie theater with a different opinion of Kylo than when they arrived.

That said, TPTB over at LF/Disney set themselves up for a real challenge in TFA- that is finding a way to overcome all the obstacles, internal (within the film) but external too (public/fan opinion) of making Kylo a viable redeemed love interest for the trilogy's heroine. And I do believe they will succeed by the end of TLJ. I mostly believe that cause I trust Rian and the work he put in TLJ since a)he cares about the characters b)he seems to share the same insight/interpretation about Rey/Kylo/Reylo's journey with the Reylo fandom from the little snippets he's given us thus far c)his interaction on social media with the SW fandom shows that he's not dismissive of fans and that's really important.

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Re: The Last Jedi: Most controversial film since .....

Post by FrolickingFizzgig on Sat 21 Oct - 5:48

I'll preface this by saying that I'm not convinced we are getting any real romantic Reylo in TLJ. Romantic in the sense that there will be a kiss or anything beyond the hand-offer (and probably a lot of UST/staring, lol). I'm more of the opinion that things will get real on that level in IX, but I guess we'll see?

If it's done well I don't really think it'll be that controversial, to be honest. It really depends on how Rian goes about further humanizing Kylo and how he develops Rey. Get the audience invested in Kylo--more so than they are now--and everything really falls into place, what with Rey and Kylo both being equally lonely, afraid and powerful, both harborers of some terrifying, dangerous ability or potential in the Force that is unique to them. I don't really see what could be controversial about the hero and villain--who are now being described as co-protagonists--joining forces or teaching each other.

Obviously if Rey and Kylo start making out 3 minutes into the film, sure, that would be controversial, but we have a whole movie to ensure that when/if the dynamic takes a potential romantic twist in either VIII or IX it will be relatable and understandable with regards to both character and narrative. So in the grand scheme of things there might be a few silly click bait articles written, but I would be really surprised if the anti-train didn't lose most of its steam after this film's conclusion.

Coming-of-age fairytales or modern myths should contain a certain level of predictability. Without that the audience feels tricked. The dynamic is very established in TFA. All Rian really has to do is tell an emotional, epic story with Rey and Kylo being paralleled, possibly fighting again before realizing they have to come together. Halves naturally form a whole, right? By the time it happens in the film ("it" being their team-up, not romance) it should feel very natural. Other than that I'm not sure what to say because, as I said above, I'm not really convinced there will be overt romance or admittance of romantic feelings in TLJ. We'll be brought to the perfect place for those sentiments to evolve + lots of subtext, though. Look at that gentleman's hand. It's already begun.
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Re: The Last Jedi: Most controversial film since .....

Post by snufkin on Sat 21 Oct - 6:40

Oh it'll provoke an avalanche of dumb Think Pieces and Hot Takes because that's the unfortunate state of film criticism and journalism these days. Clickbait's gonna clickbait no matter the topic.

In terms of being controversial, there's already been one Hot Take about how Rey needs to be kept away from Kylo. Because of the whole canard that keeping a female character single/celibate is somehow more radical and progressive versus actually tackling how the film industry is too lazy/dude-heavy to write realistic women who get to do more than support some dude's character arc. Ever notice how a lot of fans who are passionate about Padme HATE the idea of Rey having any type of connection with Kylo? Because they don't want her sidelined/fridged the way Padme was. And Padme herself (or Natalie Portman in Garden State) is the mother of the Manic Pixie Dream Girl trope. Not to mention how incredibly s*** and stupid most blockbuster film's idea of a relationship is. Which typically is a 5th generation carbon copy of what they did for Han and Leia. But instead of Howard Hawks, it's "he's a force of nature and she's an uptight workaholic shrew who needs to get laid" with Chris Pratt as the male lead you're supposed to identify with.  But you'll likely see people freaking out over TLJ because "she's a good girl and role model!" or "That emo p*ssy killed Han Solo, he doesn't deserve to hang out with Rey!" One of the early discussions on here was the type of older fan attitude where they totally got off on Slave Leia but now SW is something they want to share with their daughters so suddenly Rey has to be this perfect pure role model.  

Selfishly, I don't really care how other fans react and if it generates some kind of controversy. I'm reasonably confident that I'll enjoy it and have people (this place) to discuss it with. Beyond that, if people freak they're gonna freak. Which already happened with the PT. Another thing, this franchise has such a deep-seated place in pop culture, that anything they do is going to upset somebody somewhere. The relationship could be transcendent/not overtly romantic like Mako Mori and Raleigh in Pacific Rim and there will still be people furious that Rey so much as has a civil conversation or feels sorry for the bad guy.

Final thought, I noticed something from the very beginning and it was a shock to be curious enough to go looking for a discussion/confirmation and see the typical comments in places like Reddit. For a long time I thought maybe they'd toy with the idea but do something safe/non-controversial like may Rey Luke's daughter. Not because that'd be a good story or interesting movie to watch, but because that's what the hardcore traditionalist (and lbr, male) fans want. That even somebody like me, who grew up with the OT and loved it, what would interest me doesn't matter. But the longer I thought about it, talked with people (mostly here), and started following what the filmmakers and cast were saying, it clicked that they weren't doing that. TFA is a great magic trick - it distracts a lot of viewers with the greatest hits of the OT and first movie. But the sleight of hand is what happens between these two characters because it sets up the actual story of the ST and what happens to these two characters. We've already seen the Pledge, next up is the Turn.
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Re: The Last Jedi: Most controversial film since .....

Post by Night Huntress on Sat 21 Oct - 7:34

I don't think we will geht the full romance in IIV, but I'm sure it will be clear where they will heading towards in IX.

Oh there will be controversy- but isn't that a good thing? Lolilol That creates more press and attention for the movie. Thumbs up
Much more than any lame, predictable storyline some people are hoping for. Even if some hardcore Antis will turn away, the GA will devour it.
Finally something different than the same old "good against bad" guys- which has been done a million times.

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Re: The Last Jedi: Most controversial film since .....

Post by Darth Dingbat on Sat 21 Oct - 12:54

I really don't see there being much if any real-world controversy because (a) I don't think Reylo will unfold in a controversial way*, and (b) the current online "controversy" is not only a noisy minority concern, but also built around strawmen based on unreasonable interpretations of TFA and unreasonable expectations of the story to come.

If Reylo itself does not unfold in a disturbing way, how many regular people will think, "Oh, but he read her mind in TFA, I can't go along with this"?

The main problem the story has to conquer is the death of Han Solo. If the story can somehow turn things around for Kylo (which I expect), then Reylo itself is a piece of cake.

Oh, think-pieces will be written. Think-pieces are written about anything these days. Whether those think-pieces are met with anything other than rolling of eyes depends entirely on the quality of the story.

If the ST somehow turns into a misogynist mess, I'll be the first to write a think-piece myself.


*) Or not controversial in a "bad way". When I say controversial in a bad way, I mean anything that puts Rey in a subservient position to Kylo. But that wasn't how the story began in TFA, so I'm confident that's not the way it would continue, not in a million years. "Controversial in a good way" might be Rey struggling with her own darkness. No doubt it will be conroversial to people who wanted a pure role model, purest of the pure. But "Female Character Disappoints Fans By Being Too Three Dimensional" doesn't make for think-pieces that can be taken seriously.
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Re: The Last Jedi: Most controversial film since .....

Post by FrolickingFizzgig on Sat 21 Oct - 14:08

Any potential "fear" Disney might have felt in going in this direction should have been utterly debunked in the minds of all but the most stubborn fans when this happened in the theatrical trailer:

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Re: The Last Jedi: Most controversial film since .....

Post by shii405 on Sat 21 Oct - 15:24

People in denial abt Reylo reminds me when Daisy said she was surprised to find out fans were also in denial the first time they heard "I am your father!" .... no one believed it at first thinking Vader was lying. (misdirection much?) Then was ESB controversial either since it revealed Vader as Luke's dad, which pretty much might be a taboo for fans that time?
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Re: The Last Jedi: Most controversial film since .....

Post by Guest on Fri 27 Oct - 17:20

@Kylo Men wrote:If Reylo does happen, I think we need to acknowledge it's going to be mega-controversial. The Last Jedi might become the most controversial film since .... The Passion of the Christ .... Crash .... Basic Instinct .... The Last Temptation of Christ? I'm not sure.

I'd been assuming it would cause a rash of thinkpieces. Having visited another popular SW website yesterday, it dawned on me how outright passionately divisive it it's going to be, and how much hostility it's going to face, and I think it's much more than I figured. Given the number of people that are going to watch it, it may dwarf other controversial movies. The reaction to the trailer is just a taste of what's on its way. And not just inside the fandom. But out there, too.
@Kylo Men

Yeah, films like Cannibal Holocaust and Salo: 120 Days of Sodom are nothing compared to the controversy of REYLO!

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Re: The Last Jedi: Most controversial film since .....

Post by PalmettoBlue on Fri 27 Oct - 17:53

I don’t know how controversial it is really going to be. The OG fanboys will always hate it (here’s looking at most of my male friends), but I think it’s going to be okay with the GA who takes the movie very much at face value. They will have had two years and now TLJ to forgive Ben for killing his father.
I had to get distance from Han’s death, and sometimes I feel like a fraud because I didn’t see Reylo earlier. But it had a lot to do with loving the character. In that way, I’m an OG fan girl, I suppose. But I digress.
The GA has gotten distance from that death, and if Rian does his job, we won’t have Kylo Ren getting in the way of his redemption by the end of 8. Hopefully, JJ won’t decide to keep the mystery box nailed shut and will actually give us the love story he implied in TFA. If they do their jobs, it’ work, and not just for us.
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Re: The Last Jedi: Most controversial film since .....

Post by snufkin on Fri 27 Oct - 19:30

WhatGirl wrote:
@Kylo Men wrote:If Reylo does happen, I think we need to acknowledge it's going to be mega-controversial. The Last Jedi might become the most controversial film since .... The Passion of the Christ .... Crash .... Basic Instinct .... The Last Temptation of Christ?  I'm not sure.

I'd been assuming it would cause a rash of thinkpieces. Having visited another popular SW website yesterday, it dawned on me how outright passionately divisive it it's going to be, and how much hostility it's going to face, and I think it's much more than I figured. Given the number of people that are going to watch it, it may dwarf other controversial movies. The reaction to the trailer is just a taste of what's on its way. And not just inside the fandom.  But out there, too.
@Kylo Men

Yeah, films like Cannibal Holocaust and Salo: 120 Days of Sodom are nothing compared to the controversy of REYLO!
@WhatGirl

Bwahahaha! Man that reminds me of how my mom found out that I had watched Blue Velvet when I was 16 and almost had a stroke because of the parts with Isabella Rosselini and Dennis Hopper. Which whatever, it's not even half as disturbing or violent as Wild at Heart, one of the few movies I've ever walked out of.

If there's anything learned from being an observer of mainstream Star Wars fandom, for every OT fan who's going to piss and moan about something like this happening, there's equally going to be a PT fan who also pisses and moans. Because some fans are so invested in the franchise that their expectations is that "this will make things right" is about giving them what they want or what they feel wasn't done correctly in the past. Or more to the point, for every OT fan who hates Kylo because they want Vader 2.0 and hates him for killing their fave, Han Solo, there's also going to be a PT fan pre-emptively hating on it because they see the PT parallels and start making noise about how Rey needs to be a strong independent woman. Because they saw George Lucas turn the PT heroine into to the tragic, sidelined, pregnant girlfriend of the villain who gets fridged in service of his character arc. It's kind of amazing how these two groups, who generally hate each other, can somehow come together to actively hate on other fans (many of us who also grew up with the OT or the PT) for simply noticing the dynamic between these two characters and be curious about what it means for the ST/franchise. Who knows? Depending how the story turns out, they may unite and become a new type of fans who instead of hating the PT hate the ST.

Also I'm morbidly curious how this will play out once people see the movie, hate whatever is in there which isn't going to fulfill their own personal wish list, and eventually figure out that Carrie Fisher, the General herself, had a guiding hand over the story and script. At least the advantage we have in this group is 2 years of debating the topic, vetting different potential scenarios, and had both a healthy/unhealthy amount of skepticism over what is going to happen. If it doesn't pan out, people here will be disappointed but better equipped to handle it. Versus if it went full gangbusters (like best case scenario for us), you  know the meltdown and anguish, not to mention social media rage targeted against the director and actors, is going to be a firestorm. And if it's clear that Carrie herself had a hand in that story, that's going to be really interesting to watch how people reconcile their veneration of her with the decisions she made for the ST as a writer/actor.
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Re: The Last Jedi: Most controversial film since .....

Post by Kylo Men on Sat 28 Oct - 2:13

WhatGirl wrote:
@Kylo Men wrote:If Reylo does happen, I think we need to acknowledge it's going to be mega-controversial. The Last Jedi might become the most controversial film since .... The Passion of the Christ .... Crash .... Basic Instinct .... The Last Temptation of Christ? I'm not sure.

I'd been assuming it would cause a rash of thinkpieces. Having visited another popular SW website yesterday, it dawned on me how outright passionately divisive it it's going to be, and how much hostility it's going to face, and I think it's much more than I figured. Given the number of people that are going to watch it, it may dwarf other controversial movies. The reaction to the trailer is just a taste of what's on its way. And not just inside the fandom. But out there, too.
@Kylo Men

Yeah, films like Cannibal Holocaust and Salo: 120 Days of Sodom are nothing compared to the controversy of REYLO!
@WhatGirl

You have to remember, a lot more people are going to see TLJ than have ever heard of Salo, much less seen.

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Re: The Last Jedi: Most controversial film since .....

Post by AceofWands on Sat 28 Oct - 4:40

People against Reylo are a teeny tiny minority and most of them truly believe that it's not going to happen. They are more against the idea of Reylo, or of these fans ruining the ST that's in their headcanon only.

So of course it won't be controversial.

For hardcore fans, it might be as controversial as the reveal that Obi-Wan was not trained by Yoda. (Or was he? cause he was trained from a certain point of view) . Some SW fans will find stuff to argue no matter what. No biggie. Drama in the fandom is not drama in the larger media.

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Re: The Last Jedi: Most controversial film since .....

Post by IoJovi on Sat 28 Oct - 4:47

@AceofWands wrote:People against Reylo are a teeny tiny minority and most of them truly believe that it's not going to happen. They are more against the idea of Reylo, or of these fans ruining the ST that's in their headcanon only.

So of course it won't be controversial.

For hardcore fans, it might be as controversial as the reveal that Obi-Wan was not trained by Yoda. (Or was he? cause he was trained from a certain point of view) . Some SW fans will find stuff to argue no matter what. No biggie. Drama in the fandom is not drama in the larger media.

@AceofWands

Exactly. As soon as the audiences expectations of Kylo are flipped on their ear as I fully expect, I highly doubt anyone will bat an eye. Personally, I think those who accused TLJ of being a rehash will be delighted!

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Re: The Last Jedi: Most controversial film since .....

Post by Night Huntress on Sat 28 Oct - 8:48

I'm sure we will learn much more about the backstory of Ben and how and why he became like we saw him in TFA as Kylo Ren.
Of course we haven't seen the movie yet, but I'm confident RJ will do en excellent job turning the GA around in their opinion of Kylo or what happened back on that final day at Luke's "let's not call it an academy".

I have a feeling that's why they wanted Adam for the role- in the few seconds of the trailer you see so many emotions on his face.
If they wanted him to be a simple villain, they could have hired anybody... but to play this character convincing you need someone like him.

As soon as the GA feel compassion for him they most likely will forgive his mistake of killing his own father- especially if he shows remorse...and maybe Han and Leia weren't as innocent and pure heroes either.

I personally think/hope it's not just Rey who will redeem him...(maybe she will be the turning point) but his own conscience.
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Re: The Last Jedi: Most controversial film since .....

Post by Kessel on Sat 28 Oct - 9:25

I honestly don't see Reylo being a huge controversy with the GA. I think we as SW fans and Reylos are more exposed to the group of antis so it seems like they're larger than they are. Most of the GA are not stanch anti Reylos with agendas who spend their time on social media trying to "destroy" Reylo. Even if there are people in the GA who dislike the idea, I think many can be made to change their mind if the story goes that way. Also, I think the issue with the GA is still the expectation of Rey Skywalker.

I think if Reylo (in whatever form it takes) is well done (this includes learning more about Kylo and him changing his behavior/actions), the GA would enjoy what they see as a twist. Just look at most of the reactions to the last scene of the trailer - which were generally positive. I haven't seen or heard of anyone being horrified or outraged by the mere suggestion that Rey may seek answers from Kylo or he may reach out to her. And that would be the first step toward a positive relationship between them. Antis have made it sound like the GA would be outraged by the mere suggestion of a positive development between them or that LF would never show anything like that. That's not true.  If the GA is open to any positive development between them, they'll be open to more positive development, as long as the characters' actions make sense. That's not to say everyone would like it. There would be some complaints as there are with almost anything, but I don't see it ever being a rampant widespread controversy.
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Re: The Last Jedi: Most controversial film since .....

Post by Darth Dementor on Sun 29 Oct - 3:39

@Kessel wrote:I honestly don't see Reylo being a huge controversy with the GA. I think we as SW fans and Reylos are more exposed to the group of antis so it seems like they're larger than they are. Most of the GA are not stanch anti Reylos with agendas who spend their time on social media trying to "destroy" Reylo. Even if there are people in the GA who dislike the idea, I think many can be made to change their mind if the story goes that way. Also, I think the issue with the GA is still the expectation of Rey Skywalker.
@Kessel

This in a nutshell. The GA just want an enjoyable movie and really don't care how it's done, just as long as their entertained. Most of them have not poured over every new bit of information like hardcore fans have and they have little to no expectations what will happen next.

Almost every reason the antis give for why Kylo can't or won't be redeemed won't make one iota of difference to the casual fan. Most can look past and forgive all of Ben's past indiscretions if the story is told in a good and believable manner. For the most part that is who Disney is catering too and want to win over because that is who will buy most of the tickets and make TLJ a financial success. They already know they have the hardcore fans buck but the casual who will only see it once, maybe twice and buy it when it comes out on Blu-ray make up the majority of the franchises income.

So no Reylo will not be a controversy that will divide the audience. Most will see it as a twist, talk about it with other casuals then move on to something else until the new movie comes out to make them think of Star Wars again.

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Re: The Last Jedi: Most controversial film since .....

Post by MrsWindu on Sun 29 Oct - 10:25

@Darth Dementor wrote:
@Kessel wrote:I honestly don't see Reylo being a huge controversy with the GA. I think we as SW fans and Reylos are more exposed to the group of antis so it seems like they're larger than they are. Most of the GA are not stanch anti Reylos with agendas who spend their time on social media trying to "destroy" Reylo. Even if there are people in the GA who dislike the idea, I think many can be made to change their mind if the story goes that way. Also, I think the issue with the GA is still the expectation of Rey Skywalker.
@Kessel

This in a nutshell. The GA just want an enjoyable movie and really don't care how it's done, just as long as their entertained. Most of them have not poured over every new bit of information like hardcore fans have and they have little to no expectations what will happen next.

Almost every reason the antis give for why Kylo can't or won't be redeemed won't make one iota of difference to the casual fan. Most can look past and forgive all of Ben's past indiscretions if the story is told in a good and believable manner. For the most part that is who Disney is catering too and want to win over because that is who will buy most of the tickets and make TLJ a financial success. They already know they have the hardcore fans buck but the casual who will only see it once, maybe twice and buy it when it comes out on Blu-ray make up the majority of the franchises income.

So no Reylo will not be a controversy that will divide the audience. Most will see it as a twist, talk about it with other casuals then move on to something else until the new movie comes out to make them think of Star Wars again.
@Darth Dementor

My sister rather surprised me a few months back when said she couldn’t wait for the Last Jedi release, from a general film fan point of view. She is certainly GA compared to me. Before the trailer came out I introduced her to the Reylo clues in TFA ( even my kids chimed in with there’s hearts in trees!) and she was like whaaat? But since then she’s told me she’s now doubly excited for the TLJ. She just wants a really good entertaining story and see how Kylo will evolve and hints or full blown Reylo.
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