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Post by Darth Dementor on Sun 17 Dec 2017, 11:38 pm

@IoJovi wrote:I just got back from my third TLJ viewing.  The fact that they’re the end game couple hits me over the head with a sledgehammer more and more with every viewing.  The way he looks towards her through the Bond in spite of the way she’s shutting the door says everything.  I’m sorry Amanda can’t  see this.
@IoJovi
Every naysayer points to Rey closing the door on Kylo when he reached out to her via ForceBond as proof she wants nothing to do with him ever again, but that's just it...she's closing the door on Kylo Ren.  The very last shot we see of her she's holding the pieces of his old saber,  not knowing how but, determine to piece it back together and make it; ie him whole again.  Rey shut the door on Kylo because she wants Ben Solo.  Not the creation he is trying so hard, and failing, to be but the man she saw redeemed and full of light in her future vision, when their hands touched.  The fact that after that moment Rey only called him Ben is very telling.

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Post by Mana on Mon 18 Dec 2017, 1:55 am

Honestly, I can't even imagine why anti Reylos would even trust their own judgment about Rey and Kylo's relationship after this.
They're not going back to square one. Rey's never going to go back to hating him or not caring. Not after everything that was set up between them and that super epic team against the Praetorian guard. Together, they are the ideal duo and equals in every sense of the word. They are the balance.
I feel sorry for anyone who's missing out on the beauty of this dynamic :/
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Post by DarthRen on Mon 18 Dec 2017, 2:42 am

@Darth Dementor wrote:
@IoJovi wrote:I just got back from my third TLJ viewing.  The fact that they’re the end game couple hits me over the head with a sledgehammer more and more with every viewing.  The way he looks towards her through the Bond in spite of the way she’s shutting the door says everything.  I’m sorry Amanda can’t  see this.
@IoJovi
Every naysayer points to Rey closing the door on Kylo when he reached out to her via ForceBond as proof she wants nothing to do with him ever again, but that's just it...she's closing the door on Kylo Ren.  The very last shot we see of her she's holding the pieces of his old saber,  not knowing how but, determine to piece it back together and make it; ie him whole again.  Rey shut the door on Kylo because she wants Ben Solo.  Not the creation he is trying so hard, and failing, to be but the man she saw redeemed and full of light in her future vision, when their hands touched.  The fact that after that moment Rey only called him Ben is very telling.
@Darth Dementor

I hope but he's been manipulating their bond to some extent, he made that bridge so they can talk at long distances. Even if I'd rather prefer just the Force taking care of it.

About making him whole again, that is Ben Solo's job and only he can bring him back. Nobody can grow up for you, you must do it yourself. This is the fundamental difference between him and Vader.

Vader was a machine for decades and it was him who ultimately did it no matter Luke, his decision to act. Luke played a part but essentially it was up to Anakin to destroy Darth Vader. His arc was about all and rise due to finding humanity. We already saw that spark of humanity with Kylo/Ben in TLJ. With ST it's the fight of Ben Solo vs Kylo Ren. At this point Kylo is winning by a quite margin, there is very little light left him in, typical SW thing to do. Bleak ending with a glimmer of hope, counts for the fight of Ben Solo vs Kylo Ren. Rey naively and selfishly tried to do it in TLJ and it didn't worked. Leia, Luke and Han tried and it didn't worked. He must do it himself, that is the message in my honest opinion.
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Post by Maria Antonietta on Mon 18 Dec 2017, 6:43 am

SHE BLOCKED ME LMAOOOO
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Post by Rei of Sunshine on Mon 18 Dec 2017, 6:50 am

@Maria Antonietta wrote:SHE BLOCKED ME LMAOOOO
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Amanda? hahahaha
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Post by Maria Antonietta on Mon 18 Dec 2017, 6:55 am

@Rei of Sunshine wrote:
@Maria Antonietta wrote:SHE BLOCKED ME LMAOOOO
@Maria Antonietta

Amanda? hahahaha
@Rei of Sunshine

YEESS! I've shared the heroine's journey with her, she can't even stand narrative logic and she went all defensive replying to a Kirsty tweet. SAD.
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Post by Darth Dingbat on Mon 18 Dec 2017, 7:16 am

@Mana wrote:Honestly, I can't even imagine why anti Reylos would even trust their own judgment about Rey and Kylo's relationship after this.
They're not going back to square one. Rey's never going to go back to hating him or not caring. Not after everything that was set up between them and that super epic team against the Praetorian guard. Together, they are the ideal duo and equals in every sense of the word. They are the balance.
I feel sorry for anyone who's missing out on the beauty of this dynamic :/
@Mana

Thank you for putting it so succinctly. This is exactly it. Together, they are the balance (hut scene), they are equals (the lightsabre not choosing either one of them this time around), and they work so perfectly together (PG fight). I can't understand how anyone thinks they'd set this up and then ignore it going forward, heh.
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Post by DarthRen on Mon 18 Dec 2017, 7:25 am

@Mana wrote:Honestly, I can't even imagine why anti Reylos would even trust their own judgment about Rey and Kylo's relationship after this.
They're not going back to square one. Rey's never going to go back to hating him or not caring. Not after everything that was set up between them and that super epic team against the Praetorian guard. Together, they are the ideal duo and equals in every sense of the word. They are the balance.
I feel sorry for anyone who's missing out on the beauty of this dynamic :/
@Mana

Their opinion was very wrong. I fully agree that she'll never hate him, not after all this and I think partially that is the reason for the bond. You have the villain who sympatze and can't bring himself to kill the hero. And the hero who sympatize and can't bring himself to kill the villain. At least I hope so.

As for caring, well it depends if she has any feelings deeper than pity, sympathy and all that. If she loves him, realize that loves him or if what they had was ever real because her views are bound to be tested by the period of time apart, same as his. It'll be really interesting to see where they are in terms of their feelings in episode IX.
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Post by Mana on Mon 18 Dec 2017, 7:52 am

@DarthRen wrote:
@Mana wrote:Honestly, I can't even imagine why anti Reylos would even trust their own judgment about Rey and Kylo's relationship after this.
They're not going back to square one. Rey's never going to go back to hating him or not caring. Not after everything that was set up between them and that super epic team against the Praetorian guard. Together, they are the ideal duo and equals in every sense of the word. They are the balance.
I feel sorry for anyone who's missing out on the beauty of this dynamic :/
@Mana

Their opinion was very wrong. I fully agree that she'll never hate him, not after all this and I think partially that is the reason for the bond. You have the villain who sympatze and can't bring himself to kill the hero. And the hero who sympatize and can't bring himself to kill the villain. At least I hope so.

As for caring, well it depends if she has any feelings deeper than pity, sympathy and all that. If she loves him, realize that loves him or if what they had was ever real because her views are bound to be tested by the period of time apart, same as his. It'll be really interesting to see where they are in terms of their feelings in episode IX.
@DarthRen

Oh I'm pretty sure that Rey's feelings towards Ben Solo go beyond just sympathy, just from the way she looks at him and the way she craves intimacy with him. She was the one who reached out her hand first in the hut scene, she was the one who got all up in his personal space in the elevator scene and lets not forget how she grabs his thigh for support during the praetorian guard fight. That was a pretty intimate gesture thrown into that choreographed fight and shows that at that point she is pretty comfortable around him.
I do however think Kylo wants it more even though he's rather more subtle about it this time round, but Rey wants it too and she makes it pretty clear.
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Post by vaderito on Mon 18 Dec 2017, 8:16 am

@Mana wrote:  

Oh I'm pretty sure that Rey's feelings towards Ben Solo go beyond just sympathy, just from the way she looks at him and the way she craves intimacy with him. She was the one who reached out her hand first in the hut scene, she was the one who got all up in his personal space in the elevator scene and lets not forget how she grabs his thigh for support during the praetorian guard fight. That was a pretty intimate gesture thrown into that choreographed fight and shows that at that point she is pretty comfortable around him.
I do however think Kylo wants it more even though he's rather more subtle about it this time round, but Rey wants it too and she makes it pretty clear.
@Mana

Their feelings are definitely romantic. Rey let her hair loose after seeing shirtless Kylo and then extended her hand to him to feel his touch. To which he responded by taking off his glove. They both wanted intimacy including sexual. The movie makes no mystery about that. Intimacy is emotional and sexual/physical. denying it is just  lol!  Didn't those people learn anything?

Moreover, the two halves of the saber are like breaking the framed photo and then holding onto its shards. It's a symbol of their unity so she isn't giving up on him. But it's his call, he has to save himself cause no one can.

The ending is great because it juxtaposes their current fates. he's achieved power but the victory is hollow cause he's alone. Everything he cared for (Rey, family) slipped through his fingers and he knows it. Hence puppy face that we love so much. OTOH, Rey found new people in her life. Instead of holding onto Finn, she contently watches him and Rose, meets Poe, sits down with Leia. That's an important stepping stone for her, that she expanded her circle aka found a family, as did Finn (it isn't all about Rey, Rey, Rey anymore). Kylo has nothing so he'll either keep it that way or try to win those he loves back the right way (unconditional love, rejection of power).
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Post by Birdwoman on Mon 18 Dec 2017, 9:18 am

I was wondering how Amanda took this movie. I assumed she was very salty about it. LOL!

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Post by SheLitAFire on Mon 18 Dec 2017, 9:24 am

@Maria Antonietta wrote:
@Rei of Sunshine wrote:
@Maria Antonietta wrote:SHE BLOCKED ME LMAOOOO
@Maria Antonietta

Amanda? hahahaha
@Rei of Sunshine

YEESS! I've shared the heroine's journey with her, she can't even stand narrative logic and she went all defensive replying to a Kirsty tweet. SAD.
@Maria Antonietta

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This is what's most frustrating to me about Americans today (and I AM American), people can't seem to intelligently listen to others ideas & opinions without shouting over them irrationally or censoring/blocking them. Maybe it's happening outside the US too, but it definitely seems to be an epidemic here. So unhealthy for society.
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Post by snufkin on Mon 18 Dec 2017, 11:12 am

@SheLitAFire Dunno if you saw the Village Voice article about how people 'read' works of fictions these days with expectations, which stunts how they absorb/learn from it. But it sounds like part of the problem here, especially because so many fans are having a hard time with the meta commentary about letting go of expectations in order to learn. And hey if I'm gonna be salty, the problem with a lot of mainstream SW fandom, even the ones pushing back against the OT fanboy contingent, is that they have certain hardwired expectations of what it's 'supposed' to be. And like the below quote, I mean we've all seen the explanations and 'analysis' of these characters and their relationship. Which uh, isn't what was shown in TLJ, supported by any of the quotes from the writer/director and the actors playing them (including one of the actors having their action figures make out on national television), or even just in what was set up in the previous movie. But attitudes and comments like that very much stem from having a set of expectations that they bring to the franchise based on their own personal relationship with it and their respective abilities/training when it comes to understanding works of fiction. Which in the case of that one person, they're pretty low on the actual scale when it comes to both having an understanding of how narratives work *and* how feminism works:

Our Reaction to “Cat Person” Shows That We Are Failing as Readers When we look to our texts to teach us not how to think, but what to think, we suffer for it

There’s a larger pattern here. We look to novels, TV shows, and movies to teach us political lessons instead of engaging with their critical frameworks; consider, for example, recent reactions to Wonder Woman and the backlash against the all-woman casting of Ghostbusters. But when we read a text looking for ways to live, instead of looking for ways to consider the world, we don’t develop the moral and ethical compass that we need to make decisions of our own willingness and accord — not at the behest of some other, woker character or writer. If the extent of our critical-thinking skills is a Harry Potter metaphor comparing the Death Eaters to the Republican Party, we’re fucked. Our politics must be living, and they must derive from moral and ethical standards that we hold within our own hearts — and that we glean from the world around us, not the world of a fictional universe.

Our ability to be critical readers is important for writers, too. Fiction allows us to say things that we cannot say in life — to embark on trajectories of experience that we might never have access to in reality. To take this power away from artists — their very ability to create and construct, to use the material of life in the way that a painter uses oil colors or an illustrator a pen — is, as the author Tanwi Nandini Islam put it, “suffocating.”

+1 to this quote summarizing why I really and truly loathe Harry Potter and its fandom. Which not anybody here because I know you love those books and you're smarter than the average overvocal fan. But the extent that a really trite and banal mindset has taken place where people use works like that (or Star Wars) as their Rosetta Stone for understanding everything and a lack of self-awareness on that point.
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Post by LadyHa on Mon 18 Dec 2017, 12:52 pm

@snufkin wrote:
+1 to this quote summarizing why I really and truly loathe Harry Potter and its fandom. Which not anybody here because I know you love those books and you're smarter than the average overvocal fan. But the extent that a really trite and banal mindset has taken place where people use works like that (or Star Wars) as their Rosetta Stone for understanding everything and a lack of self-awareness on that point.
@snufkin

Ah, so it sounds like people are treating these fandoms more as a religion than as stories. Perhaps they are looking to each new installment to give them answers for not just a character, but their own lives too.  I guess that religions are generally made up of stories, but, IMO, this is asking way too much of movies. Sort of gives me insight into why people say things like "Luke would never do this" and "Rian doesn't understand this story..." To me, those arguments doesn't make any sense, because this is Rian's story and the characters do whatever he writes.
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Post by Cowgirlsamurai on Mon 18 Dec 2017, 1:43 pm

@LadyHa wrote:
@snufkin wrote:
+1 to this quote summarizing why I really and truly loathe Harry Potter and its fandom. Which not anybody here because I know you love those books and you're smarter than the average overvocal fan. But the extent that a really trite and banal mindset has taken place where people use works like that (or Star Wars) as their Rosetta Stone for understanding everything and a lack of self-awareness on that point.
@snufkin

Ah, so it sounds like people are treating these fandoms more as a religion than as stories. Perhaps they are looking to each new installment to give them answers for not just a character, but their own lives too.  I guess that religions are generally made up of stories, but, IMO, this is asking way too much of movies. Sort of gives me insight into why people say things like "Luke would never do this" and "Rian doesn't understand this story..." To me, those arguments doesn't make any sense, because this is Rian's story and the characters do whatever he writes.
@LadyHa

I’ve seen many people stating that nothing in TLJ lines up with the story presented in TFA and that’s Rian just threw everything that had been established out. Shocked
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Post by DarthRen on Mon 18 Dec 2017, 5:04 pm

@Mana

I probably should have made it clear, I meant her feelings at the end of the movie and beyond what is to come. I must admit, it irks me how she's happy, shooting down TIE's, then gigling with others and then her look like your fault to Kylo when it were mutual wrongdoings.

At the end of the movie and beyond Will she love him? Pity him and have sympathy? Fight him because she has to? Same for Kylo but his feelings are much deeper at least the way I see it.
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Post by AceofWands on Mon 18 Dec 2017, 5:58 pm

@DarthRen wrote:@Mana

I probably should have made it clear, I meant her feelings at the end of the movie and beyond what is to come. I must admit, it irks me how she's happy, shooting down TIE's, then gigling with others and then her look like your fault to Kylo when it were mutual wrongdoings.

At the end of the movie and beyond Will she love him? Pity him and have sympathy? Fight him because she has to? Same for Kylo but his feelings are much deeper at least the way I see it.
@DarthRen

But that's how Rey camouflages her own problems. She's a happy, smiling girl in TFA as well, even though she has her abandonment issues. That's how she deals with it.

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Post by BenRey on Mon 18 Dec 2017, 6:22 pm

Is there a more entitled fandom?
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Post by californiagirl on Mon 18 Dec 2017, 6:52 pm

Sorry to bombard you with another Jenny tweet (I follow her on Twitter), but this one really made me laugh.

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Post by FrolickingFizzgig on Mon 18 Dec 2017, 6:57 pm

@Cowgirlsamurai wrote:
@LadyHa wrote:
@snufkin wrote:
+1 to this quote summarizing why I really and truly loathe Harry Potter and its fandom. Which not anybody here because I know you love those books and you're smarter than the average overvocal fan. But the extent that a really trite and banal mindset has taken place where people use works like that (or Star Wars) as their Rosetta Stone for understanding everything and a lack of self-awareness on that point.
@snufkin

Ah, so it sounds like people are treating these fandoms more as a religion than as stories. Perhaps they are looking to each new installment to give them answers for not just a character, but their own lives too.  I guess that religions are generally made up of stories, but, IMO, this is asking way too much of movies. Sort of gives me insight into why people say things like "Luke would never do this" and "Rian doesn't understand this story..." To me, those arguments doesn't make any sense, because this is Rian's story and the characters do whatever he writes.
@LadyHa

I’ve seen many people stating that nothing in TLJ lines up with the story presented in TFA and that’s Rian just threw everything that had been established out.  Shocked
@Cowgirlsamurai
I'm going to assume they are:

1) Salty Rey Skywalker/parentage theorists who thought parentage was actually presented as narratively important. Big clue: it wasn't.

2) Snoke theorists who are now #SaltierThanCrait because he was gutted by his apprentice


Last edited by FrolickingFizzgig on Mon 18 Dec 2017, 7:01 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post by Mana on Mon 18 Dec 2017, 7:00 pm

@DarthRen wrote:@Mana

I probably should have made it clear, I meant her feelings at the end of the movie and beyond what is to come. I must admit, it irks me how she's happy, shooting down TIE's, then gigling with others and then her look like your fault to Kylo when it were mutual wrongdoings.

At the end of the movie and beyond Will she love him? Pity him and have sympathy? Fight him because she has to? Same for Kylo but his feelings are much deeper at least the way I see it.
@DarthRen

Oh yeah, she's really mad and dissapointed in him in the end, but....
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Post by Little_Boots on Mon 18 Dec 2017, 7:01 pm

@Mana! Your signature pic!!! XD
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Post by LadyHa on Mon 18 Dec 2017, 7:08 pm

@FrolickingFizzgig wrote:
@Cowgirlsamurai wrote:
@LadyHa wrote:
@snufkin wrote:
+1 to this quote summarizing why I really and truly loathe Harry Potter and its fandom. Which not anybody here because I know you love those books and you're smarter than the average overvocal fan. But the extent that a really trite and banal mindset has taken place where people use works like that (or Star Wars) as their Rosetta Stone for understanding everything and a lack of self-awareness on that point.
@snufkin

Ah, so it sounds like people are treating these fandoms more as a religion than as stories. Perhaps they are looking to each new installment to give them answers for not just a character, but their own lives too.  I guess that religions are generally made up of stories, but, IMO, this is asking way too much of movies. Sort of gives me insight into why people say things like "Luke would never do this" and "Rian doesn't understand this story..." To me, those arguments doesn't make any sense, because this is Rian's story and the characters do whatever he writes.
@LadyHa

I’ve seen many people stating that nothing in TLJ lines up with the story presented in TFA and that’s Rian just threw everything that had been established out.  Shocked
@Cowgirlsamurai
I'm going to assume they are:

1) Salty Rey Skywalker/parentage theorists who thought parentage was actually presented as narratively important. Big clue: it wasn't.

2) Snoke theorists who are now #SaltierThanCrait because he was gutted by his apprentice
@FrolickingFizzgig

I was going to mention the same two issues: snoke and rey's lineage. What other things could fit this? Just details like the Knights of Ren? I don't relate, because I never cared at all about Snoke's backstory and always inferred that Rey was a "nobody." These two fan theory topics seemed to mostly rely on spinning from other movies or source material. If the answer had to be found in an entirely different trilogy, it didn't seem likely to me.
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Post by Mana on Mon 18 Dec 2017, 8:49 pm

@Little_Boots wrote:@Mana! Your signature pic!!! XD
@Little_Boots

Lol, it actually happened too!!!! Very Happy
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Post by snufkin on Mon 18 Dec 2017, 9:53 pm

@LadyHa - Religion is the word to compare it to. Because after thinking about it, I take the underlying themes about the Jedi/The Force to be very Protestant. Which yeah, me being a smart a** comparing a lot of the mainstream fan overly earnest "is it Canon? OMG, you guys stop talking about Grey Jedi that's so dumb!" discussions you see about the franchise and world building to Bible Study class. But in thinking about it:

- The Force is Open to Everyone and no elite group/class controls it is Luther's Every Man a Minister. It's like the Jedi and the Old Republic were the Holy Roman Empire and the transition shown via Luke's epiphany (Book of Luke anybody?) to how Rey will carry forward is the Protestant Reformation.

- You make a mistake and you learn from it and Nobody is ever lost are straight out of John Wesley. There's The Four Alls, which is about grace/redemption and that all people have the potential to atone and gain redemption for their sins (it rejects the concept of Original Sin) and to know that they've attained grace.

Funny thing, I'd say TLJ is a film which is both deeply religious and deeply sex-positive. Which is a combination you don't frequently find outside of the music of Prince or a Dolly Parton concert! But I'd bet that a film written/directed by somebody who's discussed the influence of his religious (Evangelical) upbringing with 3 male leads (2 of whom are preacher's kids) who also grew up in religious households, those themes aren't coincidences.

@cowgirlsamurai, what @FrolickingFizzgig said. I've noticed a lot of female fans who are angry that Rey isn't a legacy because they conflate the whole family lineage and Jedi membership with gaining the keys to power/The Old Boy's Club. Versus the point both Rose and Ben keep making about dismantling the old and corrupt systems. Rose obviously being the more sane and correct of the two - the system only benefits an elite few at the detriment of the rest and needs to be taken apart, replaced by something more equitable and just.  The issue with lineage is also getting way played out with Ben - groomed and trained under the legacy of his mother's side of the family. Like I don't think it's just Snoke being an a** taunting him about being like Han (who even tells Leia he stayed away because he knows that he reminds her of Ben), Rey yelling at him about how Han loved him and gave a damn about him, and then the sabaac dice. And him telling her that she's nothing/comes from nothing is pure snobbery towards that side of his family. Best case scenario for him surviving the ST and learning his lesson is to reject the whole Chosen One/Special Jedi and Political Class baggage from Leia's side of the family and align himself with Han's more humble, but heartfelt/true legacy. Which uh, is also the social class Rey comes from and the lesson she's learned.

Also in terms of theorization and fans being salty over that, unfortunately JJ has indulged too much in Mystery Boxes and building narratives (Westworld is the big one outside of Lost) that are all meant to be deconstructed like puzzles. Which is 180 degrees from how Rian Johnson tends to use the trappings of narrative to examine the relationships and psychologies of his characters. But people do it compulsively anyways - like I got drawn into that with a friend when the first season of True Detective aired and funny thing, the only message you were supposed to learn at the end is that "Once there was only dark, you ask me the light's winning." Everything about The Yellow King/Carcosa was window dressing to the main theme, Rust coming to terms with his daughter's death. And anybody who watched Mad Men, remember the ridiculous "where the Hell would somebody come up with that?" fan theories. Like how Meagan was supposed to be a Manson Family victim or Don is actually DB Cooper? There was some of that here too - which is why you have so many fans irate over things like "Snoke is just a rich a**hole Darksider who gets off on power and keeping Ben as his abused pet."
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