Star Wars, Yin and Yang, Philosophy, and Mythology

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Re: Star Wars, Yin and Yang, Philosophy, and Mythology

Post by Darth Dingbat on Tue 29 Mar 2016, 9:35 am

@Luke Browalker wrote:People are always stuck on the binary: good vs evil, light vs dark, etc. Even the beloved yin yang is binary. But I think more wisdom is found in the trinary. Good, evil, and the middle. Light, dark, and the gray.
There's a yin yang I've seen that actually has three parts. I think that is much better.

I think the triskelion-shaped yin-yang is actually a BDSM symbol Very Happy But you're right, there are many different kinds of triskelion symbols around the world, like the gankyil.

I'm not sure if yin and yang are about good and evil at all, though. More like different kinds of polarities: male-female, fire-water and so on. And in the other thread Shiva and Shakti were mentioned, and they are polar yin-yang, male-female whilst being the same. Separately they may be polarities, but intertwined together they're the same energy (the Force in balance?).
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Re: Star Wars, Yin and Yang, Philosophy, and Mythology

Post by MeadowofAshes on Tue 29 Mar 2016, 9:59 am

Darth Dingleberry wrote:
@Luke Browalker wrote:People are always stuck on the binary: good vs evil, light vs dark, etc. Even the beloved yin yang is binary. But I think more wisdom is found in the trinary. Good, evil, and the middle. Light, dark, and the gray.
There's a yin yang I've seen that actually has three parts. I think that is much better.

I think the triskelion-shaped yin-yang is actually a BDSM symbol Very Happy But you're right, there are many different kinds of triskelion symbols around the world, like the gankyil.

I'm not sure if yin and yang are about good and evil at all, though. More like different kinds of polarities: male-female, fire-water and so on. And in the other thread Shiva and Shakti were mentioned, and they are polar yin-yang, male-female whilst being the same. Separately they may be polarities, but intertwined together they're the same energy (the Force in balance?).

@Luke Browalker Although I don't recall a trinity within their philosophy the "Middle Path" is for sure a Buddhist concept. The Jedi borrow heavily from Buddhism in philosophy and lifestyle but they don't seem to make the leap to the gray balance. Maybe we'll see this with Kylo, Rey, and a new iteration of Jedi.

@Darth Dingleberry You are on target with Shakti/Shiva. What I find particularly interesting - Shakti or the divine goddess aspect is portrayed as a force that reigns in the masculine. When the gods can no longer handle the demons, the goddess (Durga, Kali) is called in and she wrecks them. Within the Star Wars universe we can view this as the Force ultimately has the final say in the battle between good and evil, but we can also view it in the context of the characters themselves. One idea I'm playing with in another thread is that the Force actually sent Rey, a "match" with Ben's soul, to rescue him from the darkness. Snoke could represent the demon who has hold of Kylo/Ben's soul so the Force sends Rey, an aspect of the divine feminine, to help Ben remember the Shakti principle within himself and together they lay waste to Snoke.
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Re: Star Wars, Yin and Yang, Philosophy, and Mythology

Post by Darth Dingbat on Tue 29 Mar 2016, 12:26 pm

@MeadowofAshes wrote:
@Darth Dingleberry You are on target with Shakti/Shiva. What I find particularly interesting - Shakti or the divine goddess aspect is portrayed as a force that reigns in the masculine. When the gods can no longer handle the demons, the goddess (Durga, Kali) is called in and she wrecks them. Within the Star Wars universe we can view this as the Force ultimately has the final say in the battle between good and evil, but we can also view it in the context of the characters themselves. One idea I'm playing with in another thread is that the Force actually sent Rey, a "match" with Ben's soul, to rescue him from the darkness. Snoke could represent the demon who has hold of Kylo/Ben's soul so the Force sends Rey, an aspect of the divine feminine, to help Ben remember the Shakti principle within himself and together they lay waste to Snoke.

I really like the sound of that. I tend to think their meeting was fated (and their Force bond predated their meeting in real life) and what you describe would make a lot of sense. Though I don't know if the Force would care so much about just rescuing one person, Skywalker descendant or no; I'm guessing Rey and Ren do have a more important job to do together. Perhaps they're the divine feminine and divine masculine sent to rescue the world itself from darkness?

Some links I liked:

http://www.swamij.com/shakti.htm

http://www.swamij.com/kundalini-awakening.htm

http://www.yogamag.net/archives/1991/bmar91/twins.shtml

There is a supreme experience where Shiva and Shakti no longer exist as separate entities. Some call it 'Brahman', others refer to it as being 'Not this, not this', meaning that it is inexpressible, while still others say that it is one without a second. This is the state of nirvana, samadhi, perfect oneness, moksha or enlightenment. It is the state where Shiva merges so closely with Shakti that they become one. They embrace each other so tightly that they cease to be separate. And this is the meaning of the many 'seemingly' erotic sculptures which personify these two principles - Shiva and Shakti. They symbolise that enraptured state where separateness is no more. This is 'The divine embrace of Tantra'.

The more I think of this, the more something like this would explain why the connection seems so deeply erotic and deeply spiritual at the same time. And isn't the Force bond a state of merging?
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Re: Star Wars, Yin and Yang, Philosophy, and Mythology

Post by MissG on Tue 29 Mar 2016, 7:32 pm

"Don't fight it... you know you can't."

Well Kylo's action figure says it, so I'd think it was suppose to be part of the movie, but was the line ever shot or no we might never know. If I had to guess where it was suppose to go I'd probably put it during their mind probe fight...
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Re: Star Wars, Yin and Yang, Philosophy, and Mythology

Post by ashesforfoxes on Tue 29 Mar 2016, 8:13 pm

@guardienne @meadowofashes thanks for the kind words on my meta, you guys have a lovely discussion going on here and I figured I'd jump in (apologies for my walls of text)

@MeadowofAshes wrote:Both characters' isolation and loneliness only add kindling to the logical conclusion one would draw from a Jungian perspective: Kylo and Rey are or will become sexually and/or romantically attracted to one another because their respective qualities "complete" the other.

Absolutely spot on with your analysis--and I agree the "switch" between the feminine and masculine is apparent here, which makes sense when you consider the audiences both characters pull. Both are so desperately in need of love/companionship and Rey finds it with each and every one of the characters who has a history with Kylo (especially the ones he feels betrayed by) which he discovers during her interrogation. Rey is intriguing to him because she is everything he is not. Relationship dynamics presuppose that one finds "completeness" in their partner even as one has complementary traits.  

@SanghaRen wrote: This is funny because in the other-not-to-be-named forum I had posted about Kylo Ren being the archetype of the Scorpio sign with all the Hades/Persephone and Phoenix mythology influence.

Oh man @sangharen you are spot on . . . try reading Linda Goodman's Sun Signs while thinking of the character or even AD who is one. It probably doesn't help I'm a Scorpio born on Samhain so I have a bit of an obsession with astrology/tarot as symbolic self-reference/archetypal imagery. Many astrologers discuss the different "phases" of Scorpio: the grey lizard, scorpion, eagle and phoenix. The phoenix is a powerful symbol on its own but in the astrological context its associated with Pluto (Hades of course) and the need to experience the darkness/death of the self always before one can evolve and grow into the light. In the tarot the Death card, XIII, is associated with Scorpio and contains the powerful image of a sun that is neither rising nor setting but both--representing new beginnings, wiping the slate clean to start again, etc.

There's a wealth of lovely symbolism to get into here but the most important takeaway for me is that things traditionally seen as "bad" in Western views--death, decay, etc.--are considered necessary and just as important as life, growth, light in this context. We must die to our old lives to be born to the new one. And its a correct assumption that these traits are actually considered feminine if we think of yin or even the older earth goddess archetypes. My favorite example is the Latvian Mara (Latvian mythology has some amazing goddesses including Saule, the goddess of the sun) but then most goddesses associated with the earth (where things are buried only to live again) have this association.

Anyway I'm rambling since I'm sick but I love the discussion here. Keep it coming.
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Re: Star Wars, Yin and Yang, Philosophy, and Mythology

Post by MeadowofAshes on Tue 29 Mar 2016, 9:56 pm

As a yoga teacher, I am embarrassed to say I did not even think of Shiva and Parvati/Durga/Kali! Just... everything here... it's such wonderful analysis! <3<3

Me reading this thread:

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Re: Star Wars, Yin and Yang, Philosophy, and Mythology

Post by MeadowofAshes on Tue 29 Mar 2016, 10:14 pm

Also, Shiva is an ascetic and attempts to practice celibacy. (Any of you also over on the Virgin!Kylo thread? Very Happy) He has to be lured out of his stoic meditation by Parvati. Reminds me of a certain seemingly asexual dark knight...

http://www.exoticindiaart.com/article/shiva_parvati/
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Re: Star Wars, Yin and Yang, Philosophy, and Mythology

Post by MoonFyre on Tue 29 Mar 2016, 10:21 pm

Great meta. I find it interesting when you brought up Shiva challenging the goddess to a dance contest because in other literature, dance is associated with battle / war. For instance, in a Song of Ice and Fire series, the Dance with the Dragons is a major civil war during the rule of the Targaryens. It reminded me of Kylo and Rey during the snow fight, when they were like dancing:

http://45.media.tumblr.com/1d1b6062797a43f511631168fcffdc7a/tumblr_o4icmoGdlk1vnupi1o1_500.gif

Not only the snow fight is visually stunning, but also the symbolism behind it.
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Re: Star Wars, Yin and Yang, Philosophy, and Mythology

Post by Mana on Wed 30 Mar 2016, 4:30 pm



Guys...we have to discuss more about mythology when it comes to Star Wars!!!
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Re: Star Wars, Yin and Yang, Philosophy, and Mythology

Post by SanghaRen on Wed 30 Mar 2016, 4:47 pm

@ashesforfoxes

Ascendant Scorpio here at 29°. Ascendant Scorpio on the edge, the most dangerous ones Very Happy

I haven't read Linda Goodman's Sun Signs. Will do. I recommend - if you haven't read it yet - Astrology for Lovers by Liz Greene. The title is silly and I have my doubts that she chose it. For each sign you have a general description, the myth behind it, how it comes out in a man and a woman and my favorite part : the shadow. She also does say that Scorpio has a bad reputation that they mostly do not deserve. When you read the shadow part of each sign, well I am not sure Scorpio has the worse one... I am a Taurus (Sun and Moon in Taurus actually) ascendant Scorpio. To have an idea of how I am you have to read both the Taurus and Scorpio chapters and when they contradict each other, usually Scorpio wins :-)

I actually thought about Scorpio for Kylo Ren because AD joked in a press conference that KR was a Scorpio, making videos for his mom and being a good cook. I thought it was interesting that he chose his own sign. And it did hit me why I was in a way feeling close to the character.

I don't know if you were in the other discussion forum, but this was my rambling - and I had no excuse being sick, I ramble all the time. Apologies if you already saw it:

Scorpio is the sign linked to the 8th house of transformation and is ruled by Pluto which is heavily linked with Hades and with the Phoenix. Now let’s look at some of the characteristics of Scorpio.

1. First major characteristic of Scorpio is emotional transformation. A strong Scorpio at peace with itself is a dead Scorpio. Inner status quo does not exist. Scorpio needs to dig deeper in its inner core to understand its own motivations, its patterns and is constantly trying to redefine and refine itself. It’s a visceral need and there’s nothing to stop that. See some KR here?

2. Scorpio does not take things at face value. You can put as much frosting on the cake as you want, if there is a worm in it, Scorpio will see it. Scorpio usually stirs very extreme reactions from people : love or hate. There is usually no middle ground. And usually the ones hating Scorpio do so because they feel uncomfortable in the presence of Scorpio, that seems to look right through the mask and see what the person is trying to hide. Expert at mind probing, anyone?

3. Scorpio does not see the world in a binary way. Light and dark, good and evil, right or wrong are strange concepts for Scorpio, that sees the world in a variety of shades of grey. Seeing good in a person deemed as evil is actually a no-brainer. The same for seeing some evil lurking in people deemed as saints. And here I can see how Ben Solo could have had real issues with the typical Light Side Jedi training.  

4. Scorpio thinks very highly of justice and being fair. The problem is its idea of justice is not our typical idea of justice in Western culture, which is based on christian values. It’s a rather raw sense of justice. You ain’t gonna see a Scorpio lean in his other cheek for you to smack it. You attack, it strikes back. And potentially in a ruthlessly way. You stay nice, it will leave you alone. There is a sense of equality too. Attacking a person weaker than you is something that rubs Scorpio the wrong way and can send it into raw and cold anger - yep, Scorpio's anger is very scary. Scorpio is also not afraid of getting dirty in the process neither. If it sees some wrong done – wrong as a breach in what it sees as just -, it will go full mode in making it right even if it means walking through the mud and being hated for it. So here we can extrapolate on the famous “I will finish what you started”. I could see how KR joined the FO/Snoke because he sees them bringing justice to the Galaxy (how, I don't know) and does not hesitate in doing some rather nasty things in the process. But this is also something that could bring him back because if you convince Scorpio that it was misled, it will swallow its pride and go for what it considers as just. That’s a typical unknown characteristic of Scorpio, by the way. Many people see Scorpio as a proud and revengeful sign, but it’s not, at least no more than any of the other 11 signs.

5. One last thing that has to do with the Phoenix. Scorpio is actually its own enemy and can literally destroy itself by nagging at itself constantly. However, Scorpio is also the typical person that you see rising up from the ashes when you thought he/she was fully destroyed. Re-birth is a big aspect of Scorpio. This is another aspect that I could see in KR in the future movies. He went to the bottom of the pit, and he mostly put himself in this pit, but I can definitively see him rise up, having picked up and integrated all the shattered pieces of his self (light side features, dark side features, sense of failure, humiliation, victim to predator behaviour, compassion, longing for love and companionships, etc.) into a new-born Scorpio -> a Gray Jedi?

Some posters had added also passion to the list of characteristics, which is very true.

I was actually going to mention Tarot too. I also love Tarot. I use the Mythic Tarot card set also by Liz Greene - yes, I do like her work. It is not cheap but the drawings are really nice and make it easy to interpret especially if you are already into mythology. Death is definitively the card for Scorpio. And people are really scared of this card when it actually in most cases "only" means the end of a chapter in your life which is not a bad thing per se.

So now, I will end my rambling and go to bed.
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Re: Star Wars, Yin and Yang, Philosophy, and Mythology

Post by ashesforfoxes on Wed 30 Mar 2016, 8:37 pm

@SanghaRen wrote:3. Scorpio does not see the world in a binary way. Light and dark, good and evil, right or wrong are strange concepts for Scorpio, that sees the world in a variety of shades of grey. Seeing good in a person deemed as evil is actually a no-brainer. The same for seeing some evil lurking in people deemed as saints. And here I can see how Ben Solo could have had real issues with the typical Light Side Jedi training. .

@sangharen thank you so much for reposting--I had not seen your characterization in the old thread but it is perfect. I haven't read Liz Greene or seen her tarot deck but thank you for the introduction to it--I will definitely read her work. Linda Goodman's Sun Signs/Love Signs was big in a time before I was born so it was everywhere when I grew up and I read it religiously (my family is a bit on the weird side). I should preface my wall of text by saying that astrology and tarot are important to me because I find them archetypal and interesting from a psychological perspective but I understand that they are largely considered woo-woo . . . as always, YMMV. I believe more in the power of the collective consciousness than I do any gravitational influence of the stars and planets or magic in cards beyond the kind you put into them when you read them. Symbols have power only insofar as we recognize or believe in them. That said, I've found a lot of beauty and meaning within both.

I quote 3. because I have too much personal experience with this trait--I despise simple classifications of right and wrong (which is difficult when you are surrounded by Libras and Geminis). Scorpio's are very much their "own worst enemy"--the analogy I've heard used is that if there isn't anyone close enough to sting when you are backed into a corner, you sting yourself. We internalize our pain and conflicts with others in a cycle of self-destruction and re-creation. And like a shark, to be still is to die--there must always be a commitment to change. There's also a strange dichotomy of ego and humility in Scorpio--on the surface they will be self-effacing but internally they are proud creatures. They despise being humiliated.

So while people like to focus on angst and sex as defining traits of the sign I think the more important trait of Scorpio (especially in this context) is that they wear many masks.

Because there is so much beneath the surface, things even we can't stand the thought of, we assume an outer persona which varies depending on the need and situation. You will never know a Scorpio until they want you to. When you do, be certain that have chosen to share themselves with you and they will defend you with their last breath. It unfortunately does not take much to make us angry (unless we like you) but anger is so much a part of us that we have learned to keep it contained beneath the surface. When a Scorpio is enraged they will still be all smiles and politeness but the temperature of the room will have gone down a few degrees and you'll get the sensation a wall of ice has formed between you. Rarely, the camel's back breaks and it comes pouring out of us like a boiling pot or a goddamn volcano--sadly this is usually at the smallest straws so whomever is unlucky to get hit with it will be extremely confused how this minor error warranted such a response.

Taurus are a great match for Scorpio in the essence of being their "opposing" sign and if you ascribe to the idea of north node to south node/karmic paths we move from Scorpio to Taurus and vice versa. Considering the quintessential elements of Taurus--the rewards of hard work, simple pleasures, family, love and beauty--this is a beautiful journey. A friend summarized it by saying that after living the war over many lifetimes we seek peace and home. Which has a lot of lovely connotations in the context of KR's characterization. I am very curious now . . . what do we believe Rey to represent? Taurus is a good start but perhaps Virgo, or Sagittarius?
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Re: Star Wars, Yin and Yang, Philosophy, and Mythology

Post by panki on Thu 31 Mar 2016, 8:44 am

I'm working on something relating to chines mythological and philosophical belief (relating to yin and yang)......a little research left....will post it in a day or so. Smile

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Re: Star Wars, Yin and Yang, Philosophy, and Mythology

Post by SanghaRen on Thu 31 Mar 2016, 11:40 am

@Mana : Why? We all want to work for Lucasfilm Wink Would be cool *sighs* My work is as exciting as taking out the garbage.
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Re: Star Wars, Yin and Yang, Philosophy, and Mythology

Post by Maria Antonietta on Thu 31 Mar 2016, 12:43 pm

@SanghaRen wrote:@Mana : Why? We all want to work for Lucasfilm Wink Would be cool *sighs* My work is as exciting as taking out the garbage.
"The garbage will do!!" tongue
I think we're going in the right direction, we'll finally see the true balance of the force. I don't know how they'll put it on screen, though. How do you imagine it?
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Re: Star Wars, Yin and Yang, Philosophy, and Mythology

Post by SanghaRen on Thu 31 Mar 2016, 5:24 pm

@ashesforfoxes

The idea was that she was an Aries ascendant Carpicorn so a combination fire/earth. She does have a fiery temperament and is prone to anger. She can handle herself and has this fighter attitude. Plus it's a male sign. I was also thinking Sagittarius at first because of the dreamy / I want to travel characteristics but someone mentioned Capricorn and it fits more imo. She has a serious take on life and a great sense of responsibility. There is also the perception or reality of an absent or cold father with Capricorns. Although in real life astrology that can also be featured by Saturn in an opposing position. Often people think 1 aspect = 1 interpretation. But then a friend of mine has her MC in Scorpio and I have Pluto in 10th. Different aspects but same flavor. We both have a record of power-hungry bosses and we both were close to being made redundant a couple of times + other stuff in the same flavor.

What is interesting is that you also instinctively went for fire and earth too Smile

I think for Finn we decided on Gemini ascendant a still TBD Earth sign.

Taurus might be a great match for Scorpio but when both are strong in one person, it's inner war. But slowly Taurus and Scorpio are starting to integrate.
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Re: Star Wars, Yin and Yang, Philosophy, and Mythology

Post by YoloKylo on Fri 01 Apr 2016, 10:12 pm

speaking of yin and yang, did you guys see this post?
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Re: Star Wars, Yin and Yang, Philosophy, and Mythology

Post by vaderito on Sat 02 Apr 2016, 3:12 pm

I was asked to repost this here as well. if anyone can find appropriate images to go with the text, please add them, I'd like to see colorful version of this. Also better written. if anyone wants to expand on it, that would be great. So, the post:

OMG, I figured out something. There's a moment in Secrets of TFA where a member of creative team says something about Christian themes in SW. And than it dawned on me:

Desert Messiahs - all SW Saviors (Anakin, Luke, Rey) rise from the desert because Prophets of the Bible and Christian Messiah all came from the desert (Middle East)

Garden of Eden - "I didn't think there was this much green in the whole galaxy" is Rey seeing Paradise for the first time. That's what Takodana is for her, a paradise. So what we call enchanted forest is actually Garden of Eden

First Jedi Temple and Adam and Eve - Luke is looking for the first Jedi Temple which means first Jedi which means first of their kind. And I have a sneaky suspicion that first of new Jedi kind, the Adam and Eve of the Force, will be Rey and Kylo

Serpent Snoke - serpent = snake. Change one syllable in Snoke and you get Snake.

Kylo = Eve, Rey = Adam

JJ on Kylo:" They had this kid who was born with equal parts good and evil" Which concept will they choose?


In religion, ethics, and philosophy, "good and evil" is a very common dichotomy. In cultures with Manichaean and Abrahamic religious influence, evil is usually perceived as the dualistic antagonistic opposite of good, in which good should prevail and evil should be defeated.[1] In cultures with Buddhist spiritual influence, both good and evil are perceived as part of an antagonistic duality that itself must be overcome through achieving Śūnyatā meaning emptiness in the sense of recognition of good and evil being two opposing principles but not a reality, emptying the duality of them, and achieving a oneness.[1]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Good_and_evil

I'm posting this because we talk about Yin and Yang a lot and there are many visual cues that support it, yet they also said they use elements from Christianity, which were used in previous SW. And as you can see from the quote above, that's a different take on duality of Good and Evil than Asian religions.
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Re: Star Wars, Yin and Yang, Philosophy, and Mythology

Post by MoonlitMoss on Sun 03 Apr 2016, 11:44 am

The different Star Wars, Mythology, Yin and Yang, and Philosophy threads have been merged into one thread.

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Re: Star Wars, Yin and Yang, Philosophy, and Mythology

Post by Armadeus on Tue 03 May 2016, 4:02 am

Food for thought from mythology guru Joseph Campbell

The hero, therefore, is the man or woman who has been able to battle past his personal and local historical limitations to the generally valid, normally human forms. Such a one's visions, ideas, and inspirations come pristine from the primary springs of human life and thought. Hence they are eloquent, not of the present, disintegrating society and psyche, but of the unquenched source through which society is reborn. The hero has died as a modern man; but as eternal man - perfected, unspecific, universal man - he has been reborn. His second solemn task and deed therefore (as Toynbee declares and as all the mythologies of mankind indicate) is to return then to us, transfigured, and teach the lesson he has learned of life renewed.

“I was walking alone around the upper end of a large city, through slummy, muddy streets lined with hard little houses,” writes a modern woman, describing a dream that she has had. “I did not know where I was, but liked the exploring. I chose one street which was terribly muddy and led across what must have been an open sewer. I followed along between rows of shanties and then discovered a little river flowing between me and some high, firm ground where there was a paved street. This was a nice, perfectly clear river, flowing over grass. I could see the grass moving under the water. There was no way to cross, so I went to a little house and asked for a boat. A man there said of course he could help me cross. He brought out a small wooden box which he put on the edge of the river and I saw at once that with this box I could easily jump across. I knew all danger was over and I wanted to reward the man richly.

“In thinking of this dream I have a distinct feeling that I did not have to go where I was at all but could have chosen a comfortable walk along paved streets. I had gone to the squalid and muddy district because I preferred adventure, and, having begun, I had to go on. When I think of how persistently I kept going straight ahead in the dream, it seems as though I must have known there was something fine ahead, like that lovely, grassy river and the secure, high, paved road beyond. Thinking of it in those terms, it is like a determination to be born - or rather to be born again - in a sort of spiritual sense. Perhaps some of us have to go through dark and devious ways before we can find the river of peace or the highroad to the soul's destination.
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Re: Star Wars, Yin and Yang, Philosophy, and Mythology

Post by Guest on Tue 03 May 2016, 6:31 am

This looks like yin yang Smile It's fan made




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Re: Star Wars, Yin and Yang, Philosophy, and Mythology

Post by Armadeus on Sat 07 May 2016, 1:02 pm

I think the story of Lemminkäinen and his mother from Finnish mythology is quite interesting when one considers Leia and Kylo

The original, mythological Lemminkäinen is a shamanistic figure. In the Kalevala, he has been blended together with epic war-heroes Kaukomieli/Kaukamoinen and Ahti Saarelainen.

In one myth, he drowns in the river of Tuonela (the underworld) in trying to capture or kill the black swan that lives there as part of an attempt, as Ilmarinen once made, to win a daughter of Louhi as his wife. In a tale somewhat reminiscent of Isis' search for Osiris, Lemminkäinen's mother searches heaven and earth to find her son. Finally, she learns of his fate and asks Ilmarinen to fashion her a rake of copper with which to dredge her son's body from the river of Tuonela. Thus equipped, she descends into the underworld in search of her son. On the banks of the river of the underworld, she rakes up first Lemminkäinen's tunic and shoes, and then, his maimed and broken body. Unrelenting, she continues her work until every piece of Lemminkäinen's body is recovered. Sewing the parts together and offering prayers to the gods, the mother tries to restore Lemminkäinen to life, but while she succeeds in remaking his body, his life is still absent. Then, she entreats a bee to ascend to the halls of the over-god Ukko and fetch from there a drop of honey as ointment that would bring Lemminkäinen back to life. Only with such a potent remedy is the hero finally restored.
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Re: Star Wars, Yin and Yang, Philosophy, and Mythology

Post by guardienne on Sat 07 May 2016, 1:10 pm

@Armadeus wrote:Food for thought from mythology guru Joseph Campbell

The hero, therefore, is the man or woman who has been able to battle past his personal and local historical limitations to the generally valid, normally human forms. Such a one's visions, ideas, and inspirations come pristine from the primary springs of human life and thought. Hence they are eloquent, not of the present, disintegrating society and psyche, but of the unquenched source through which society is reborn. The hero has died as a modern man; but as eternal man - perfected, unspecific, universal man - he has been reborn. His second solemn task and deed therefore (as Toynbee declares and as all the mythologies of mankind indicate) is to return then to us, transfigured, and teach the lesson he has learned of life renewed.

“I was walking alone around the upper end of a large city, through slummy, muddy streets lined with hard little houses,” writes a modern woman, describing a dream that she has had. “I did not know where I was, but liked the exploring. I chose one street which was terribly muddy and led across what must have been an open sewer. I followed along between rows of shanties and then discovered a little river flowing between me and some high, firm ground where there was a paved street. This was a nice, perfectly clear river, flowing over grass. I could see the grass moving under the water. There was no way to cross, so I went to a little house and asked for a boat. A man there said of course he could help me cross. He brought out a small wooden box which he put on the edge of the river and I saw at once that with this box I could easily jump across. I knew all danger was over and I wanted to reward the man richly.

“In thinking of this dream I have a distinct feeling that I did not have to go where I was at all but could have chosen a comfortable walk along paved streets. I had gone to the squalid and muddy district because I preferred adventure, and, having begun, I had to go on. When I think of how persistently I kept going straight ahead in the dream, it seems as though I must have known there was something fine ahead, like that lovely, grassy river and the secure, high, paved road beyond. Thinking of it in those terms, it is like a determination to be born - or rather to be born again - in a sort of spiritual sense. Perhaps some of us have to go through dark and devious ways before we can find the river of peace or the highroad to the soul's destination.
@Armadeus

it's interesting i was watching the cinema sins ROTJ video this morning and they complained (amongst many things) that we never get to see luke as a bad*** jedi. we never really get to see him develop as a jedi.

he has his dark moment of the soul when he surrenders to vader and has the emperor narrate the rebels' defeat at him forever. he's got the cave, confronting his self at the cave, and then he's ready to face vader already?

i hope that kylo can be written in a more profound way and that his conflict isn't resolved basically in the off. it stands to reason though that maybe he's already gone though hell. i do wonder how much more there is for him in store.
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Re: Star Wars, Yin and Yang, Philosophy, and Mythology

Post by Armadeus on Fri 03 Jun 2016, 1:33 am

An interesting analysis of the hero Odysseus by T. W. Arnold which I think is significant when considering whether or Rey should explore the dark side of the Force:

T. W. Arnold wrote:The adventures which Odysseus endures are all of them dangerous enticements which draw the self away from the track of its logic. He gives himself up time and again to new experience, tests it as an uninitiated but eager learner, even sometimes as a foolish curiosity seeker... "But where there is danger, there grows / Too the force that saves": knowledge ... has its substance in the experience of the manifold, the distracting, the dissolving; and the knowledgeable, enduring hero is the same one who, at his boldest, gives himself up to the threat of death and by this becomes durable and strong in life. Odysseus, like the heroes of all real novels after him, gives himself away in order that he may come to win himself; the distancing from nature which he effects is realized in the abandonment to nature which in every episode he eschews; and, ironically, the relentless force which he commands triumphs - he comes home a relentless hero, as judge and avenger of the heritage of the forces he escaped.
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Re: Star Wars, Yin and Yang, Philosophy, and Mythology

Post by Armadeus on Tue 14 Jun 2016, 9:59 pm

From the essay 'Heroes and the Homeric Iliad' by Gregory Nagy

This new phase of Achilles' anger consumes the hero in a paroxysm of self-destructiveness. His fiery rage plummets him to the depths of brutality, as he begins to view the enemy as the ultimate Other, to be hated with such an intensity that Achilles can even bring himself, in a moment of ultimate fury, to express that most ghastly of desires, to eat the flesh of Hektor, the man he is about to kill. The Iliad is the story of a hero's pain, culminating in an anger that degrades him to the level of a savage animal, to the depths of bestiality. This same pain, however, this same intense feeling of loss, will ultimately make the savage anger subside in a moment of heroic self-recognition that elevates Achilles to the highest realms of humanity, of humanism. At the end of the Iliad, as he begins to recognize the pain of his deadliest enemy, of the Other, he begins to achieve a true recognition of the Self. The anger is at an end. And the story can end as well.
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Re: Star Wars, Yin and Yang, Philosophy, and Mythology

Post by CienaRee on Sun 19 Jun 2016, 2:29 pm

I recently re-watched Mortis trilogy from TCW  and reading some comments apparently the themes that were explored there about hwo good and evil have to balance each other were quite controversial for some people because they've been led to believe that drak=evil so they can't wrap their minds about why the universe would need more evil when there's already enough of it so why would the heroes try to fight the bad guys only for there to be more evil it's probably why some of them are opposed to things being more grey than simply good vs bad in the ST. 
But these episodes reminded me of the speculation about Reylo being Yin and Yang which led me to find some interesting stuff about them and their meaning:

No Good or Bad?

There is really no good or bad according to the Taoist/yin-yang view, only what appears to be good or bad. There is no life and death because "Life and death are one, right and wrong are the same," (from the Chuang Tzu as quoted in World Religions, Geoffrey Parrinder, p. 333). In this view, opposites are not really opposite; they just appear that way to us because we perceive through a dualistic conditioning and cannot see how opposites are really part of the whole. Opposites actually contain the essence of each other, and eventually merge with each other. This is one of the origins of the holistic view of the world and of the body, and remains the basis today of the body-mind connection. The universe is seen as mystically connected and interplaying, including every person, animal, rock, tree, river, etc., through the yin-yang interaction. Referring to the Tao, Wen-Tzu states that "the Way has no front or back, no left or right: all things are mysteriously the same, with no right and no wrong," (Wen-Tzu, Further Teachings of Lao-Tzu [Boston: Shambhala, 1992], 109).
 

Evil is Not a Force

If opposites are always merging into and becoming each other, then there is no absolute good or evil. However, in I John 1:5, it states, "This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all." Evil is not a force; it is a rejection of or rebellion against the good. Evil is the work of Satan, who has no truth in him (John 8:44), and those who choose to deny or reject God. Evil and good are not equal because God is sovereign and "The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work," (I John 3:Cool. God allows Satan to operate for now; but Satan was defeated when Jesus died for us on the cross, allowing deliverance from Satan's power through trusting Christ (For he has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins, Colossians 1:13,14). Satan will be thrown into the lake of fire (Rev. 20:10).

http://www.christiananswersforthenewage.org/Articles_YinYang.html


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