Theory: Lord Cronal/Blackhole/Shadowspawn is Snoke

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Theory: Lord Cronal/Blackhole/Shadowspawn is Snoke

Post by panki on Tue 29 Mar 2016, 4:05 am

I remember reading an interview regarding the new trilogy which mentioned that we'll be seeing other types of force users other than jedi and sith in this trilogy. In another interview, I read how the FO resembles the Nazis in case they re-grouped in South America. And more recently, Lucasfilm just got the term "Shadow Trooper" trademarked under various categories such as clothing, footwear, toys, games etc.

So after a little digging around in the EU (and some of the canon material as well) to find parallels to Snoke, the FO, Acolytes of the Beyond, KOR and how Kylo fits into all this, I think I have found the character Snoke will be based upon.

I feel Snoke is based on a character called Lord Cronal in the EU. Lord Cronal also went under the names Blackhole and Shadowspawn. Snoke is supposed to be neither jedi nor sith, and Andy Serkiss said that the character was aware of the events from the earlier films but was a new addition to the storyline.

In the EU, Lord Cronal was a human who was initially a member of the Sorcerers of Rhand a dark-side cult in the Unknown Regions. He then joined the Prophets of the Dark Side, and eventually the Imperials.



He has a lot of powers including:

Darksight, the ability to see the future and influence it.
• Create fear in others through the Force.
• Create weapons resistant to the blows of lightsabers
• The ability to control minds
• Rip thoughts from the minds of others
• Cast Force illusions
• Heal himself
• Transfer his mind into another body.

When his fellow Dark side prophets turned on him, he joined Imperial Intelligence and was responsible for creation of Shadow Troopers.



While in Imperial Intelligence, he worked with Vader. While he liked Palpatine, he felt that Palpatine was more into ruling the galaxy and not the true purpose of the Darkside- absolute destruction of everything! He also thought Vader was more of a goon who didn’t understand his own powers but he encouraged Vader to be the Emperor’s right hand man because it allowed him never to board a Death Star and allowed him to work in the shadows. He was both into dark magic and genetic engineering as well (again very important). He also has a daughter named Sariss who is one of the Dark Jedi, and whom he treated badly.

Before Palpatine’s death, he vanished to the Outer Rim territories to study sith alchemy and modern technology. After Palpatine's death, Moff Yupe Tashu said:

No Sith remain and the lone Jedi that exists–the son of Anakin Skywalker–possesses an untouchable soul. At least for now. We must instead move toward the dark side. Palpatine felt that the universe beyond the edges of our maps was where his power came from. Over the many years he, with our aid, sent men and women beyond known space. They built labs and communication stations on distant moons, asteroids, out there in the wilds. We must follow them. Retreat from the galaxy. Go beyond the veil of stars. We must seek the source of the dark side like a man looking for a wellspring of water.

So the remaining Imperials went to the Outer Rim and Unknown regions, and Lord Cronal began his plan for domination. Before I go further, Lord Cronal's body wasted away due to his dark force practices (and he went a little crazy as well), so he was always on life support. I think he tried to confront Luke in the past and failed, losing many soldiers. He also used an imposing hologram under a fake name in dark robes to communicate with people.



I also think the Acolytes of the Beyond and KOR serve Snoke directly. They collect sith artifacts and locate Force Nexuses in the galaxy.

Acolytes of the Beyond
The EU has the Dark Acolytes founded by Count Dooku and they seem to have made their way into canon as the Acolytes of the Beyond through the SW Aftermath novel. Like their EU counterpart, they are three in number (two males and one female). In the novel, they allegedly purchase Vader's lightsaber to destroy it and return to its master, and they also say they are not yet violent.



Knights of Ren

I think they are a satellite group the works for Snoke, having features of two EU groups- the Seven Dark Jedi lead by Jerec and the Disciples of Ragnos. I have posted more details on this group in the <Knights of Ren> thread.


Possible First Order Use of Propaganda?

I'll post an extract from the EU novel Luke Skywalker and the Shadows of Mindor which is interesting.....here Lord Cronal/ Shadowspawn uses a Holothriller to spread false version of what happened at the time Vader killed the Emperor.

I think they have adapted some version of this for the new trilogy though I would assume Luke is the bad guy in Snoke's version of events (Luke's Treason)....I think this propaganda is what made Ben Solo and maybe even Hux and others join the FO, and why Kylo cares for Vader and is trying to find Luke (not to mention Leia losing credibility among the younger generation of Senators and being seen as a war monger)...

It had been Shadowspawn who had revealed to Klick the tale of Vader's treason, the monster's cowardly murder of his longtime friend and benefactor, a tale so dark and gruesome that even now, Klick shuddered to think of it. Why, Vader would have died years ago, without the caring and generosity of the great man he would eventually assassinate; it was well known among the clones that Darth Vader had been a charity case, his life saved free of any charge at one of Palpatine's great legacies, the Emperor Palpatine Surgical Reconstruction Center on Coruscant. Palpatine's caring and generosity had not only saved Vader's life, but had gifted him with mechanical arms and legs, remaking a helpless cripple into perhaps the most feared and powerful man the galaxy had ever known.

It was all just a small part of the greatest holothriller Klick had ever seen, the one Shadowspawn himself had created and was now circulating among the systems still loyal to the Imperial Dream:

Luke Skywalker and the Jedi's Revenge. The holothriller had shown in vivid detail how Vader's madness had grown with his unholy ambition, how the Dark Lord had pretended to play along with Palpatine's quest to rescue the last remaining child of the Jedi hero, Anakin Skywalker, from the evil web of lies in which the Rebels had snared him. How on the day when Luke Skywalker had finally stood before Palpatineon the bridge of the second Death Star, when the Emperor had declared his great love for Skywalker's father-who, as all honest clones knew, had been the Emperor's most beloved protege until his tragic, untimely death in the Jedi Rebellion-Vader's mind had finally snapped.

It was Vader, as Luke Skywalker and the Jedi's Revenge made so painfully clear, who had always secretly dreamed of being Palpatine's successor. It was Vader, in his madness, who had believed himself to be Palpatine's beloved protege; he had even tried to bend young Skywalker's mind to evil, to recruit the virtuous young Jedi in his treasonous plans, but young Skywalker had roundly rejected

Vader's insane machinations. And so, on that dark day among the moons of Endor, when Palpatine had revealed to young Skywalker that he, and he alone, the son of Palpatine's beloved companion, the child of the sole Jedi to remain loyal to the Senate and the Chancellor during the Jedi Rebellion, was to be the new Emperor, Vader could no longer control his rage. With a roar of mindless fury, he'd attacked like a blood-mad rancor.

As the innocent young Skywalker had looked on in horror, the black-armored monster had fallen upon the frail old man who had once befriended him. Only after Palpatine had been mortally wounded had young Skywalker snapped from his daze. With righteous fury, he had risen up against the most feared fighter in the galaxy, and had struck down the black-armored assassin, the murderer of his late father's greatest friend. But it was too late to save Palpatine; poor Skywalker could only avenge the great man's death. Though Klick knew that what he'd seen was only a dramatic reenactment, there was something so real about it, so powerful-a truth greater than any mere facts.

It was Luke Skywalker's grief and guilt at his failure to save the Emperor, Shadowspawn had explained, that had driven him back into the grasp of the Rebels. Skywalker believed that he deserved no better than to be just another outlaw among the thieves, pirates, and murderers of the Rebel Alliance.

"And this is what I ask of you, Wing Commander," Lord Shadow-spawn had said to Klick on that day. "That you join me in my quest to fulfill the dying wish of our Beloved Emperor: to heal the broken heart of the son of the last true Jedi hero, and to put Luke Skywalker, Palpatine's chosen heir, in his rightful place as the absolute ruler of our Galactic Empire. "


Now for the important part- Where does Kylo fit into all this?

1. In the EU story, Snoke heard a prophecy about his destruction and assumed the person who would kill him is Luke Skywalker. I think in this trilogy; the prophecy was speaking of Ben Solo. So he decided to avert this by making Ben Solo give up his identity entirely with the intention to possess his body! (Since his own body has wasted away)... it is a little like Skynet possessing John Connor in the recent Terminator movie.

2. If Rey turns out to be Palpatine’s descendant, Snoke will be desperate to get hold of her…. or at least make Rey and Kylo fight so he can control the winner.

3. And most importantly, if Rey is his own grand-daughter (it explains her crazy force abilities), it would be a terrible shock for her. It would also explain her mind reading abilities and fierce force abilities. He will definitely prefer possessing her over Ben Solo.

Extra Observations:

I think Kylo could have joined the FO for one of two reasons (one for noble reasons, the other not so much). We need to look at something Vader says in the OT for one reason and in the PT for the other:

1. This is is something Annakin says in the PT- I am more powerful than the Chancellor, I... I can overthrow him! And together, you and I can rule the galaxy! We can make things the way we want them to be!
Snoke might have tricked him and pretended to conjure Vader’s force ghost who told him that he must fulfill his dream and rule the galaxy.

This is what Vader says in the OT- Give yourself to the Dark Side. It is the only way you can save your friends. Yes, your thoughts betray you. Your feelings for them are strong. Especially for... sister. So, you have a twin sister. Your feelings have now betrayed her, too. Obi-Wan was wise to hide her from me. Now his failure is complete. If you will not turn to the Dark Side... then perhaps she will...

2. Now this is the more altruistic explanation. Snoke knows Luke will never agree to be his puppet, so he has only two Vader descendants to choose from- Ben and Leia. So he offers Ben a choice- either he must go with Snoke or Snoke will turn Leia since she has never developed her force sensitivity and would be more vulnerable than Luke. (I am not really in favour of this option but it is interesting so thought I would mention it anyway)

Even in the EU, Lord Cronal first thought of possessing Luke but when he could not he wanted to possess Leia because of her statesmanship and family connections. So it is logical for him to want to get hold of Ben Solo (who has both force abilities and family connections) and wipe his identity out, starting with his name. I also feel he sometimes possesses Kylo but there is still too much light in him to complete the process….I dread to think what happens when his training is complete!


Last edited by panki on Wed 30 Mar 2016, 2:32 am; edited 5 times in total

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Re: Theory: Lord Cronal/Blackhole/Shadowspawn is Snoke

Post by AnneNeville on Tue 29 Mar 2016, 5:38 am

I love this theory! Thank you for sharing. I still need to get that book out of the library and read it.
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Re: Theory: Lord Cronal/Blackhole/Shadowspawn is Snoke

Post by Airemyn on Tue 29 Mar 2016, 1:22 pm

This is really interesting @panki! That first image of him in particular looks a lot like Snoke.

It would be great if you could contribute your theories regarding the KOR in the thread I just created, sorry I hope I didn't tread on your toes as I didn't realise you mentioned them in this thread.
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Re: Theory: Lord Cronal/Blackhole/Shadowspawn is Snoke

Post by Maria Antonietta on Tue 29 Mar 2016, 2:07 pm

If snoke is really like that, he certainly is more dangerous than palpy
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Re: Theory: Lord Cronal/Blackhole/Shadowspawn is Snoke

Post by Guest on Thu 07 Apr 2016, 6:42 am

Can he be connected to the Son?

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Re: Theory: Lord Cronal/Blackhole/Shadowspawn is Snoke

Post by panki on Thu 07 Apr 2016, 11:11 am

In the EU story he is not connected to Son....if I recall he has a dathomir connection....he belongs to a cult that lives in the unknown regions who want to destroy the Force....but maybe they'll change it and make him the Son....not sure though.

But if they go with the EU story, he was an influential person in the empire who hid in the shadows.

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Re: Theory: Lord Cronal/Blackhole/Shadowspawn is Snoke

Post by Rimfaxe96 on Thu 07 Apr 2016, 4:53 pm

Damn. You made Snoke seem a lot more creepy than he already did. Shocked
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Re: Theory: Lord Cronal/Blackhole/Shadowspawn is Snoke

Post by panki on Thu 07 Apr 2016, 7:25 pm

@Rimfaxe96 wrote:Damn. You made Snoke seem a lot more creepy than he already did. Shocked
@Rimfaxe96

Oh, he is super creepy.... Shocked

In Star Wars- The Early Adventures comic, where he is Agent Blackhole with the Imperials and runs the shadow troopers, he is menacing but I thought he was a regular villain....who we never see except as a shadwy hologram.

The I read the novel 'Shadows of Mindor' where the Empira has fallen and he is Lord Shadowspawn. We see him doing horrible experiments to control force sensitive's minds...he leaves his body to get into theirs and make them obey him. Here his body is wasted away due to dark magic and he wants to permanently possess either Luke or Leia's body and leave his own. Luke defeats but is unable to kill him.

Then he comes back again in Collapsing New Empires with a mechanical body and uses mechu daru to infect mechanical devices in the galaxy including Luke's hand, in a bid to control him.

Hi master plan is to possess the body of a powerful FS.....then slowly destroy the Force and the Galaxy entirely until only he is left. Then he too would destroy himself leaving nothing at all except the Dark something that Rhandites worship. The Dark that Rhandites worship differs from the dark side of the force.....the dark side of the force is only about controlling the force to make it obey...not about destroying it entirely.

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Re: Theory: Lord Cronal/Blackhole/Shadowspawn is Snoke

Post by creepi0 on Thu 07 Apr 2016, 8:30 pm

Shadow Troopers appear in Rogue One teaser trailer



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Re: Theory: Lord Cronal/Blackhole/Shadowspawn is Snoke

Post by panki on Sat 09 Apr 2016, 4:24 pm

I need an opinion about something because I'd like to think this is something good but I want to be objective....I just went to the wookiepedia page for Lord Cronal (I visit it once in a while)...and I found they're making changes to the page...they've suddenly added a lot more references like game cards, guides and sourcebooks etc. and they've also added more details to his Biography like making him an Emperor's hand etc... Shocked

Is that good news or are they relegating him to EU? Suspect

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Re: Theory: Lord Cronal/Blackhole/Shadowspawn is Snoke

Post by Rimfaxe96 on Sat 09 Apr 2016, 5:00 pm

@panki wrote:I need an opinion about something because I'd like to think this is something good but I want to be objective....I just went to the wookiepedia page for Lord Cronal (I visit it once in a while)...and I found they're making changes to the page...they've suddenly added a lot more references like game cards, guides and sourcebooks etc. and they've also added more details to his Biography like making him an Emperor's hand etc... Shocked

Is that good news or are they relegating him to EU? Suspect
@panki

Sounds like EU to me. Neutral Oh well, we already knew they'd pick elements of the EU only, not entire characters.
Funny, after my first viewing of TFA and pondering about Snoke's motivations/goals I jokingly thought to myself "Well, we already had a guy who wanted to rule the universe - what could be more evil than that? The ultimate destruction of the Force, or everything in existence?"

Of course, that idea was inspired by the Thalmor faction from The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim (whose goal it is to destroy everything... basically at least, there's more mythical stuff to it which is unrelevant to the SW universe).
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