The Last Jedi General Discussion (Spoilers Allowed)

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Post by Gemlake on Tue 19 Dec - 15:35

@MrsWindu wrote:As the penny didn't drop for Reylo until I watched the DVD/Blu Ray of TFA, I wanted to ask the longer serving members of the forum; how did being able to watch, pause and rewind certain key scenes of TFA effect the way you subsequently viewed the film and its plot? And do you suppose we will glean alternative views about TLJ come April?
@MrsWindu

For me, certain details were brought to light at a later time, such as Kylo's dilated pupils during the cliff scene and Kylo kneeling before Rey vs looming over Poe.  I'm sure that the same will happen here.

Rian's commentary will likely be a gold mine.

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Post by ISeeAnIsland on Tue 19 Dec - 15:56

@Gemlake wrote:
@MrsWindu wrote:As the penny didn't drop for Reylo until I watched the DVD/Blu Ray of TFA, I wanted to ask the longer serving members of the forum; how did being able to watch, pause and rewind certain key scenes of TFA effect the way you subsequently viewed the film and its plot? And do you suppose we will glean alternative views about TLJ come April?
@MrsWindu

For me, certain details were brought to light at a later time, such as Kylo's dilated pupils during the cliff scene and Kylo kneeling before Rey vs looming over Poe.  I'm sure that the same will happen here.

Rian's commentary will likely be a gold mine.
@Gemlake

JJ's Blu-Ray commentary was a gold mine...and that was with him barely being able to talk about anything. I can't even begin to imagine what Rian's will be like.
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Post by ZioRen on Tue 19 Dec - 16:15

@EchoBase wrote:https://www.buzzfeed.com/adambvary/rey-the-last-jedi?utm_term=.tpMQ2P9arJ#.rkjqB7xyZa

So, hasn't Rian said in earlier interview that Ben uses the parentage reveal to make Rey lean on him? Now, look at this:

"Kylo appears to believe that Rey was discarded by her parents, much like he feels his parents, Han and Leia, discarded him.
Still, Kylo has embraced the dark side. So could he be lying? "I think that Kylo feels that he's telling the truth, and I feel that Rey believes him in that moment," Johnson said, choosing his words carefully. "I don't think that he's playing chess there. I think that this is something that he genuinely saw, and genuinely believes that because of this connection [they share], basically. It's less like, 'I can use this on her.' It's more, 'Oh my god, we have this in common, this is more of a kindred spirit that even she realizes.'"
@EchoBase

This is...like, kind of literally the opposite of what he said in another interview. I'm just going to chalk it up to the scene having elements of both, but leaning more toward genuine than manipulative. Or it's always genuine but with an underlayer of manipulative that Kylo isn't even fully conscious of because he's had somebody play mindgames with him for pretty much his entire life. So to Rey it may come off more as him twisting the knife to weaken her, while Kylo isn't seeing it the same way.

@lauvamp wrote:Guys, late I know but just noticed...

Did young Ben Solo own Anakin's saber? The one he used to defend himself from Luke? That's why the saber called Rey in TFA???? 

Shocked
@lauvamp

Nope, it's his own saber! People compared shots of Ben Solo's saber with Kylo Ren's and they're definitely the same lightsaber. Kylo's now looks like the silver is rubbed off of it and he added the crossguard. The implication to me is that after Kylo turned, he attempted to bleed the crystal but broke it because he's terrible at being dark side. Then he had to disassemble his saber to add the crossguard design to accomodate the crystal, but he did it rather crudely.
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Post by Darth Dementor on Tue 19 Dec - 17:17

Wow at the mall right now and decided to give TLJ another go and most of the auditoriums in cinema are sold out...on a bloody Tues?!

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Post by snufkin on Tue 19 Dec - 17:40

"Kylo appears to believe that Rey was discarded by her parents, much like he feels his parents, Han and Leia, discarded him.
Still, Kylo has embraced the dark side. So could he be lying? "I think that Kylo feels that he's telling the truth, and I feel that Rey believes him in that moment," Johnson said, choosing his words carefully. "I don't think that he's playing chess there. I think that this is something that he genuinely saw, and genuinely believes that because of this connection [they share], basically. It's less like, 'I can use this on her.' It's more, 'Oh my god, we have this in common, this is more of a kindred spirit that even she realizes.'"

I've only seen it once and will be seeing it again tomorrow, but my conclusion about his intentions has been that it's multiple things. He's sincere in feeling like they have this shared experience as children which makes them kindred spirits beyond the Force thing. He may be sticking his foot in his mouth a little in pointing out how scummy her parents were (when she probably has already had a lifetime of internalized shame from her abandonment and poverty) even if part of what he means is "Stop caring about them because you didn't matter to them, but you matter to me" But he's also insecure and tries to leverage that knowledge to keep her with him. I have to say, I actually like how it was written in the end - her repressed memory/trauma is what drew him to her from the start. That's what he noticed in the forest and why he took her with him.  How many times have we discussed here that you have him showing this ability and then there's Rey, whose memory of events may or may not be the truth. It's the initial lure for him and the spark of emotions.
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Post by PalmettoBlue on Tue 19 Dec - 17:52

I actually got a bingo...Lord only knows how because that movie did not got the way I thought it would.

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Post by reylo1992 on Tue 19 Dec - 19:12

@snufkin wrote:
"Kylo appears to believe that Rey was discarded by her parents, much like he feels his parents, Han and Leia, discarded him.
Still, Kylo has embraced the dark side. So could he be lying? "I think that Kylo feels that he's telling the truth, and I feel that Rey believes him in that moment," Johnson said, choosing his words carefully. "I don't think that he's playing chess there. I think that this is something that he genuinely saw, and genuinely believes that because of this connection [they share], basically. It's less like, 'I can use this on her.' It's more, 'Oh my god, we have this in common, this is more of a kindred spirit that even she realizes.'"

I've only seen it once and will be seeing it again tomorrow, but my conclusion about his intentions has been that it's multiple things. He's sincere in feeling like they have this shared experience as children which makes them kindred spirits beyond the Force thing. He may be sticking his foot in his mouth a little in pointing out how scummy her parents were (when she probably has already had a lifetime of internalized shame from her abandonment and poverty) even if part of what he means is "Stop caring about them because you didn't matter to them, but you matter to me" But he's also insecure and tries to leverage that knowledge to keep her with him. I have to say, I actually like how it was written in the end - her repressed memory/trauma is what drew him to her from the start. That's what he noticed in the forest and why he took her with him.  How many times have we discussed here that you have him showing this ability and then there's Rey, whose memory of events may or may not be the truth. It's the initial lure for him and the spark of emotions.
@snufkin

Interesting comment! Maybe it was the interesting thing in her mind - from the novelization - he wanted to investigate but couldn't because she was resisting him. And when they finally touched hands without no resistance from her side, he could freely investigate and found out what it was. When you look at this moment they share together, Rey seems overwhelmed by positive emotions whereas Kylo's expression looks definitely more grave. He even sort of bite his lips, very much the same way he did when he confronted his father.
http://xbonadea.tumblr.com/post/168536828099/youre-not-alone-1-gifset-part-2
Just after, Luke shows up to interrupt the vision and when he and Rey reunites later he tells her he saw her parents. So could it be that he finally saw this piece of information he wanted to investigate from the start and found out this was her parents abandoning her Question
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Post by ZioRen on Tue 19 Dec - 19:24

Kylo is so depressing, I swear. It's like he was saying "You're my everything now and since I told you this about your parents and you know Luke is a murderous snake, that means you're going to look to me as your everything now, too....right?"

I don't know about the whole thing with Poe people keep biting their nails about, but I can see Kylo's jealousy toward Finn coming back with a vengeance if Finn and Rey are reconnected in a powerful way in IX. Not as a romantic rival, but a sign to him that Rey is still surrounded by love without him while he has nothing and no one (even though that's untrue, if Luke keeps his word). It's not a nice feeling, to believe that you need somebody far more than they'll ever need you.
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Post by DeeBee on Tue 19 Dec - 19:34

@ZioRen wrote:
@EchoBase wrote:https://www.buzzfeed.com/adambvary/rey-the-last-jedi?utm_term=.tpMQ2P9arJ#.rkjqB7xyZa

So, hasn't Rian said in earlier interview that Ben uses the parentage reveal to make Rey lean on him? Now, look at this:

"Kylo appears to believe that Rey was discarded by her parents, much like he feels his parents, Han and Leia, discarded him.
Still, Kylo has embraced the dark side. So could he be lying? "I think that Kylo feels that he's telling the truth, and I feel that Rey believes him in that moment," Johnson said, choosing his words carefully. "I don't think that he's playing chess there. I think that this is something that he genuinely saw, and genuinely believes that because of this connection [they share], basically. It's less like, 'I can use this on her.' It's more, 'Oh my god, we have this in common, this is more of a kindred spirit that even she realizes.'"
@EchoBase

This is...like, kind of literally the opposite of what he said in another interview. I'm just going to chalk it up to the scene having elements of both, but leaning more toward genuine than manipulative. Or it's always genuine but with an underlayer of manipulative that Kylo isn't even fully conscious of because he's had somebody play mindgames with him for pretty much his entire life. So to Rey it may come off more as him twisting the knife to weaken her, while Kylo isn't seeing it the same way.

@lauvamp wrote:Guys, late I know but just noticed...

Did young Ben Solo own Anakin's saber? The one he used to defend himself from Luke? That's why the saber called Rey in TFA???? 

Shocked
@lauvamp

Nope, it's his own saber! People compared shots of Ben Solo's saber with Kylo Ren's and they're definitely the same lightsaber. Kylo's now looks like the silver is rubbed off of it and he added the crossguard. The implication to me is that after Kylo turned, he attempted to bleed the crystal but broke it because he's terrible at being dark side. Then he had to disassemble his saber to add the crossguard design to accomodate the crystal, but he did it rather crudely.
@ZioRen

ZioRen, I think Kylo was being both genuine and manipulative. It's all mixed up together this Kylo!
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Post by snufkin on Tue 19 Dec - 19:50

@reylo1992 - I was reading the great film critic Priscilla Page's reaction to TLJ . Her central takeaway is that the story of Ben and Rey are two adult survivors of childhood trauma and how they cope. Even with the "Raw Power" and Force part of the discussion, that's not what connects them. It's that they each have psychological and emotional trauma from childhood experiences being given away/abandoned by their parents.  Which is very interesting having seen Looper because in that film

- Like Rey, Joe's mother was a drug addict who sold him for cash. And his core issues are driven by his abandonment, in aspiring to be a good person to prove his own worth to himself. It gets twisted in the older, more selfish version of him.
- The part of the film with Joe and Sara is described as "two lonely people in an extreme situation."
- Joe's connection with Sara is in seeing somebody trying to do for their child what he never got from his mother.

The science fiction and film noir trappings of the story weren't the actual point, it was about these issues. Which sounds pretty close to TLJ. I'd also guess from how much thought the team seems to have put into the characters and story, that likely the scenario I proposed is one of the interpretations they considered. Ben likely has multiple reasons for making that offer to Rey. Some of which are selfish and manipulative, but some of which are also heartfelt and sincere. He's an a** - but at the heart of what he's saying is that she needs to acknowledge what her parents did to her and move on because it's holding her back. And he's also saying in the middle of his class snobbery and adolescent power fantasies is that it she shouldn't care that her parents didn't value her because she's the most important person to him.


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Post by ZioRen on Tue 19 Dec - 19:59

Wow this is a really, really good point that I hadn't thought about before. It seems so obvious now that I see it written out! Not that I ever thought they were manipulating each other through the bond at all, but connecting that specific scene to that didn't occur to me.

Kylo’s first line to Rey through the Force Bond is: “You will bring Luke Skywalker to me.” It’s a command, an attempt to use this new connection to find Luke, and it fails miserably. Rey just stands there staring at him and Kylo withdraws his hand, looking down as if he’s embarrassed he even attempted that again with her. This serves a really important signaling function: it tells the audience that while there is a bridge between their minds, the Force Bond cannot be used to manipulate or control the other person. That this is the first message Rian chose to send is so beautiful, because from that moment on, you know that Rey and Kylo are making their own choices and building something real.

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Post by Darth Dementor on Tue 19 Dec - 22:34


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Post by Reynak on Tue 19 Dec - 23:19

Why do you think Kylo is shirtless during one of their space skype chats?

In one article Rian says the scene was a way to show how uncomfortable it was for Rey to have such intimate connection and conversations with a man she wants to hate. There are articles on the internet wondering why he appears half-naked for no apparent reasons and a sound expert in the movie said it was a way to show that Rey could see his body and not only hear his voice. He says he was a funny moment too.


Co-sound supervisors Matthew Wood and Ren Klyce told HuffPost there’s a deeper meaning behind the shirtless scene. It’s all about that Force connection.

“The way in which [director Rian Johnson] decided to create the Force connection by just simply doing vertical cuts without using any CG ... it’s pure simplicity in terms of filmmaking with visual cuts. We cut to her side; we cut to Kylo Ren; we cut to her; and back and forth,” Klyce explained.

Simply put, the sound supervisor explained that Kylo appears sans shirt in order to show that Rey could see him while the two were Force-connected.

“That was important to establish what she was actually seeing,” Klyce said. “Was she hearing his voice or seeing his face or just his eyes? And so that [shirtless scene] is to inform the audience, ‘Oh, she can see his body.’”

Klyce added: “It’s also good humor.”
I don’t think I can buy this, can you? Why is it so important to know if they see each other or only hear each other, and how is having him shirtless the chosen way to tell us she can see his body?  Besides, they look each other in the eye as they talk and it’s quite clear they can see each other. He even says “I can see only you”.

Why is it so difficult for fanboys to realize it’s a way to highlight how intimate their connection is but also a way to show the audience she feels uncomfortable because she is attracted to him despite herself. I guess if their sexes were reversed they wouldn’t be so surprised, but in this movie the protagonist is Rey, a woman, and it’s important to see how she feels about him, sexual attraction included, because it’s her point of view that dominates. It’s her scene, her initiative, she bursts into his room to confront him and intrudes with his routine.

Everyone is used to being shown in movies how a guy is attracted to a hot woman and the women apperar with very little clothing in many cases. They don’t get that it’s the same situation in reverse. It’s her view and her object of desire as well as source of conflict.

I wonder what sound supervisors would know anyway. Why asking them about this?

What do you think? Do you believe these explanations they give?


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Post by motherofpearl1 on Tue 19 Dec - 23:43

@MrsWindu wrote:FFS - I can't believe this guy is serious? I guess he wants his 5 mins of fame and is delusional that Disney will do as he asks???

https://www.change.org/p/the-walt-disney-company-have-disney-strike-star-wars-episode-viii-from-the-official-canon

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@MrsWindu

What are they playing at? For heaven's sake how on earth can this bunch of wallies consider a movie they didn't like on the same level as bringing about positive change in the real world, which is what this organisation is supposed to be about? I am disappointed in the third Thor movie, I really wish it wasn't canon, but I vented my disappointed in comic book forums - and that is that. As a long time SW fan I found TLJ to be a wonderful swan song for the old cast, and the new characters are every bit as good as Han, Leia and Luke. It's time to embrace them, not because of their youth, but the talent of the actors playing them. Grow up guys - please.
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Post by Kessel on Tue 19 Dec - 23:50

@ZioRen wrote:Kylo is so depressing, I swear. It's like he was saying "You're my everything now and since I told you this about your parents and you know Luke is a murderous snake, that means you're going to look to me as your everything now, too....right?"

I don't know about the whole thing with Poe people keep biting their nails about, but I can see Kylo's jealousy toward Finn coming back with a vengeance if Finn and Rey are reconnected in a powerful way in IX. Not as a romantic rival, but a sign to him that Rey is still surrounded by love without him while he has nothing and no one (even though that's untrue, if Luke keeps his word). It's not a nice feeling, to believe that you need somebody far more than they'll ever need you.
@ZioRen

I agree, Kylo was looking to Rey as his belonging (albeit on his terms), but also as a new crutch. Rey chose to reject his offer because to accept it would be to make him her crutch on his (very unhealthy) terms, so she decided to stand on her own. Now Kylo will have to do the same.

I can also see Rey's close friendship with Finn serving as a more central point in the Rey and Kylo dynamic, especially since Rey and Finn are undoubtedly going to have more interactions in Episode IX. However with that said, not as a love triangle. I am confident the Rey and Finn connection was set up as them finding family in each other, not romantic partners, which fits in with the Rey and Kylo dynamic more poignantly because Kylo currently doesn't respect the people Rey loves. He wants her to himself.  He needs to develop selfless love for Rey by respecting what she loves and values. I almost hope Kylo ends up helping or saving Finn in some way like he did at the beginning of TFA when he let Finn go (like Mr. Darcy in P&P).

I don't know how possible this is, but since TFA and TLJ ended with Rey rejecting both of Kylo's offers, and Rey looking out at him from the MF and then leaving him, I'm hoping Episode IX ends with her accepting him and them on the MF, leaving together.

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Post by MyOnlyHope on Wed 20 Dec - 0:22

@motherofpearl1 wrote:
@MrsWindu wrote:FFS - I can't believe this guy is serious? I guess he wants his 5 mins of fame and is delusional that Disney will do as he asks???

https://www.change.org/p/the-walt-disney-company-have-disney-strike-star-wars-episode-viii-from-the-official-canon

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@MrsWindu

What are they playing at? For heaven's sake how on earth can this bunch of wallies consider a movie they didn't like on the same level as bringing about positive change in the real world, which is what this organisation is supposed to be about? I am disappointed in the third Thor movie, I really wish it wasn't canon, but I vented my disappointed in comic book forums - and that is that. As a long time SW fan I found TLJ to be a wonderful swan song for the old cast, and the new characters are every bit as good as Han, Leia and Luke. It's time to embrace them, not because of their youth, but the talent of the actors playing them. Grow up guys - please.
@motherofpearl1
This is pretty much the doing of triggered Legends/EU fanboys. Read the description and some of the comments and you'll see the focus is on Luke and how his canon story is different from what was in the EU. What I really don't get is why these fans can't just be happy re-reading Legends if they like how their beloved heroes were handled so much in there. Like if you're a fan who really wanted Luke to have a wife and kids, then that exact alternate reality is literally out there for you to fully enjoy. Why waste energy on pointless trash like this when you could just do something you like?

Nothing new though, of course. Old fanboys were only happy when they thought modern Lucasfilm was retelling Jacen and Jaina Solo. They never thought about the situation logically and thus never got it through their heads that LF didn't just scrap the EU to retell the EU. These people are just salty af about everything. I recall an old petition to re-canonize Legends, and who could forget the billboard?

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Post by Starliteprism on Wed 20 Dec - 3:51

Okay. Anyone have any thoughts or subscribe to the idea that when Rey sliced through that rock in the middle as she practiced with the light saber, it could have been a bit of foreshadowing on what was to then happen to Snoke by the hands of Kylo Ren/Ben?

Also, the caretakers were not very impressed when the result of Rey destroying that rock, came pummeling downwards, knocking their cart over. Makes me think of at the end of Throne Room scene and cause and effect of Rey not thinking things through, that she didn't think how her actions would affect Kylo Ren/Ben and that he might have had a plan in motion, going about his day like the caretakers on the island, that they could have talked it out to figure something to work for the both of them.
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Post by motherofpearl1 on Wed 20 Dec - 5:16

@Reynak wrote:Why do you think Rey is shirtless during one of their space skype chats?

In one article Rian the scene was a way to show how uncomfortable it was for Rey to have such intimate connection and conversations with a man she wants to hate. There are articles on the internet wondering why he appears half-naked for no apparent reasons and how a sound expert in the movie said it was a way to show that Rey could see his body and not only hear his voice. He says he was a funny moment too.


Co-sound supervisors Matthew Wood and Ren Klyce told HuffPost there’s a deeper meaning behind the shirtless scene. It’s all about that Force connection.

“The way in which [director Rian Johnson] decided to create the Force connection by just simply doing vertical cuts without using any CG ... it’s pure simplicity in terms of filmmaking with visual cuts. We cut to her side; we cut to Kylo Ren; we cut to her; and back and forth,” Klyce explained.

Simply put, the sound supervisor explained that Kylo appears sans shirt in order to show that Rey could see him while the two were Force-connected.

“That was important to establish what she was actually seeing,” Klyce said. “Was she hearing his voice or seeing his face or just his eyes? And so that [shirtless scene] is to inform the audience, ‘Oh, she can see his body.’”

Klyce added: “It’s also good humor.”
I don’t think I can buy this, can you? Why is it so important to know if they see each other or only hear each and how is having him shirtless the chosen way to tell us she can see his body?  Besides, they look each other in the eye as they talk and it’s quite clear they can see each other. He even says “I can see only you”.

Why is it so difficult for fanboys to realize it’s a way to highlight how intimate their connecting is but also another way to show the audience she feels uncomfortable because she is attracted to him despite herself. I guess if their sexes were reversed they wouldn’t be so surprised, but in this movie the protagonist is Rey, a woman, and it’s important to see how she feels about him, sexual attraction included because it’s her point of view that dominates. It’s her scene, her initiative, she bursts into his room to confront him and intrudes with his routine.

Everyone is used to being shown in movies how a guy is attracted to a hot woman and the women apperar with very little clothing in many cases. They don’t get that it’s the same situation in reverse. It’s her view and her object of desire as well as source of conflict.

I wonder what sound supervisors would know anyway. Why asking them about this?

What do you think? Do you believe these explanations they give?
@Reynak

Well, whatever the reasons I enjoyed it!!! I wonder if one of them was for Rey to see his scars? They were pretty bad. Funnily enough, his facial injury looks far worse in the flesh, so to speak, than in the pictures. He had one heck of a shiner when he first removed his helmet. Yet not once did he berate Rey for inflicting those wounds.
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Post by special_cases on Wed 20 Dec - 6:38

Oh many fanboys will be mad  lol! , they love and trust David Ehrlich

The Last Jedi General Discussion (Spoilers Allowed) - Page 5 David10
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Post by Darth Dementor on Wed 20 Dec - 9:13

This is another reason killing Snoke was awesome.  Much like killing Marian Crane in the middle part of Psycho, his death totally blew the audience's expectations,  leaving wondering what's going to happen next. A mate said that moment took him totally by surprise and absolutely loved it.
The Last Jedi's Hitchcock Style Twist Is It's Best Moment

And of course the same fans who were complaining that TFA was too much like ANH are now upset because killing the big baddie out of nowhere breaks from SW tradition.  Some people are only happy when they have something to complain about. Mad

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Post by Gemlake on Wed 20 Dec - 9:30

The Last Jedi General Discussion (Spoilers Allowed) - Page 5 7zwj9610

Reylo confirmed by Rian himself.

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Post by motherofpearl1 on Wed 20 Dec - 10:13

I have just bought the souvenir guide to TLJ. And it mentions that Snoke trained another apprentice. Will another Dark sider appear? The plot thickens.....
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Post by thescavenger on Wed 20 Dec - 10:42

@motherofpearl1 wrote:I have just bought the souvenir guide to TLJ. And it mentions that Snoke trained another apprentice. Will another Dark sider appear? The plot thickens.....
@motherofpearl1


Ooh can we see?
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Post by IoJovi on Wed 20 Dec - 10:46

@thescavenger wrote:
@motherofpearl1 wrote:I have just bought the souvenir guide to TLJ. And it mentions that Snoke trained another apprentice. Will another Dark sider appear? The plot thickens.....
@motherofpearl1


Ooh can we see?
@thescavenger

Well color me intrigued!!! Shocked

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