Discussion: Kylo Ren/Ben Solo in TLJ

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Post by rey09 on Sun 24 Dec 2017, 8:40 pm

I am wondering what will happen with his saber story at the end when he is redeemed. I can't imagine him keeping the red one, even though it's so bad*** lol. Perhaps he'll lose it in some explosion. I don't like the idea of Rey using the anakin crystal because well...she's not a skywalker. I think she should find her own crystals, it only makes sense for her character. I think it would be cool if she kept the crystal and gave it to Ben in the end so he can make a new one with it.
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Post by shii405 on Sun 24 Dec 2017, 8:53 pm

When will TPTB realize that Rey should make a double bladed lightsaber out of her staff?
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Post by CienaRee on Mon 25 Dec 2017, 2:56 am

I was reading some comments on tumblr and someone pointed out how gross and unacceptable Luke searching in Ben's mind was considering how Snoke has been doing the same thing for years and I realized how true that statement was.I hadn't really thought about that part since learning the true story behind Ben's fall was tragic enough but it just makes Luke's betrayal and murder impulse even worse since he was someone who basically raised Ben and was his uncle and he did the same thing the predator Snoke did but presented it as doing it for the ''greater good''.No wonder Luke went to exile and Ben fell to the DS. That poor boy was betrayed by everyone that he thought loved and cared for him. Evil or Very Mad Crying or Very sad Mad

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Post by DarthRen on Mon 25 Dec 2017, 3:48 am

@rey09 wrote:I am wondering what will happen with his saber story at the end when he is redeemed. I can't imagine him keeping the red one, even though it's so bad*** lol. Perhaps he'll lose it in some explosion. I don't like the idea of Rey using the anakin crystal because well...she's not a skywalker. I think she should find her own crystals, it only makes sense for her character. I think it would be cool if she kept the crystal and gave it to Ben in the end so he can make a new one with it.
@rey09

I always thought Ben's lightsaber will change colors as Ben will be brought back. If not that either destroyed or if he gives up force powers, no need for it. Then I've read that Ben might never want to use the lightsaber, only the Force for the good of others teaching, helping and protecting.
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Post by MrsWindu on Mon 25 Dec 2017, 5:30 am

@Cowgirlsamurai

That’s just too cute. My 7 yr old said yesterday after seeing TLJ ‘ Kylo used to be good and he can be again’ bless her

@shii405

Here’s my girl with her lightsabers attached (great marketing from the toy manufacturer) although not quite a double bladed staff she’s very keen on this set up with the relevant lights and sounds

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Post by PalmettoBlue on Mon 25 Dec 2017, 5:36 am

@MrsWindu wrote:@Cowgirlsamurai

That’s just too cute. My 7 yr old said yesterday after seeing TLJ ‘ Kylo used to be good and he can be again’ bless her

@shii405

Here’s my girl with her lightsabers attached (great marketing from the toy manufacturer) although not quite a double bladed staff she’s very keen on this set up with the relevant lights and sounds

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@MrsWindu

“No one’s ever really gone.”

She’s right - he will find balance.
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Post by Starliteprism on Mon 25 Dec 2017, 6:28 am

@shii405 wrote:I went to this TLJ art exhibition today and seeing a life sized figure of Kylo, a cute little Japanese boy said "Mommy, it's Kylo Ren!" looking so happy. I feel so conflicted about little boys seeing Kylo Ren as the hero they idolize, just as Luke Skywalker for the 1980s kids. I wonder how does these little kids sees Kylo as a character? The cool bad guy or they think he's a good guy now after TLJ? Since the Jedi is a girl, I guess little boys only have Kylo Ren to look up to, the only boy in the saga using a lightsaber? I'm just saying... to save these children's dreams... I think it's imperative for JJ to write a huge, classic redemption arc for Kylo with a happy ending. That's all rabbit
@shii405

My 5-year old daughter LOVES Kylo Ren. :-p
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Post by Rei of Sunshine on Mon 25 Dec 2017, 8:05 am

@MrsWindu wrote:@Cowgirlsamurai

That’s just too cute. My 7 yr old said yesterday after seeing TLJ ‘ Kylo used to be good and he can be again’ bless her

@shii405

Here’s my girl with her lightsabers attached (great marketing from the toy manufacturer) although not quite a double bladed staff she’s very keen on this set up with the relevant lights and sounds

Discussion: Kylo Ren/Ben Solo in TLJ  - Page 18 C2215d10
@MrsWindu

I'm sorry that I have to say this with your kid's pic. But that joining of lightsabers is somewhat coded Freudian language or something.

When I saw toy builders ad for this I was laughing so hard.
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Post by MrsWindu on Mon 25 Dec 2017, 8:41 am

@Rei of Sunshine wrote:
@MrsWindu wrote:@Cowgirlsamurai

That’s just too cute. My 7 yr old said yesterday after seeing TLJ ‘ Kylo used to be good and he can be again’ bless her

@shii405

Here’s my girl with her lightsabers attached (great marketing from the toy manufacturer) although not quite a double bladed staff she’s very keen on this set up with the relevant lights and sounds

Discussion: Kylo Ren/Ben Solo in TLJ  - Page 18 C2215d10
@MrsWindu

I'm sorry that I have to say this with your kid's pic. But that joining of lightsabers is somewhat coded Freudian language or something.

When I saw toy builders ad for this I was laughing so hard.
@Rei of Sunshine

Hahaha - true true Smile Laughing Embarassed
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Post by motherofpearl1 on Mon 25 Dec 2017, 9:31 am

@CienaRee wrote:I was reading some comments on tumblr and someone pointed out how gross and unacceptable Luke searching in Ben's mind was considering how Snoke has been doing the same thing for years and I realized how true that statement was.I hadn't really thought about that part since learning the true story behind Ben's fall was tragic enough but it just makes Luke's betrayal and murder impulse even worse since he was someone who basically raised Ben and was his uncle and he did the same thing the predator Snoke did but presented it as doing it for the ''greater good''.No wonder Luke went to exile and Ben fell to the DS. That poor boy was betrayed by everyone that he thought loved and cared for him. Evil or Very Mad Crying or Very sad Mad
@CienaRee

It is so ironic that Luke said he couldn't save him..... he didn't even try. He could have tried when Rey and Kylo were touching hands through their bond, but no.
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Post by ZioRen on Mon 25 Dec 2017, 10:08 am

@motherofpearl1 wrote:
@CienaRee wrote:I was reading some comments on tumblr and someone pointed out how gross and unacceptable Luke searching in Ben's mind was considering how Snoke has been doing the same thing for years and I realized how true that statement was.I hadn't really thought about that part since learning the true story behind Ben's fall was tragic enough but it just makes Luke's betrayal and murder impulse even worse since he was someone who basically raised Ben and was his uncle and he did the same thing the predator Snoke did but presented it as doing it for the ''greater good''.No wonder Luke went to exile and Ben fell to the DS. That poor boy was betrayed by everyone that he thought loved and cared for him. Evil or Very Mad Crying or Very sad Mad
@CienaRee

It is so ironic that Luke said he couldn't save him..... he didn't even try. He could have tried when Rey and Kylo were touching hands through their bond, but no.
@motherofpearl1

I was saying this in another thread. Thing is, there's no way Luke could ever be the one to exert the proper influence on Kylo to inspire him to turn himself at this point. Because it's WAY too late.

If, instead of Luke giving up and hiding out on some island after his mistake, he'd actually been out in the galaxy determined to fight Snoke and do right by Kylo, things may have been much different. Kylo may have still been angry and hurt and not trust Luke at all, but seeing someone willing to fight for you is powerful. And in this case, Luke would have been a known entity.

Instead, Luke did nothing. He never tried, which, if I were Kylo, I would see as confirmation that my uncle had truly given up on me and was really about to kill me in that room. Luke became some dangerous thing hiding in the shadows and who knew when he was going to emerge again and strike. So Kylo was hunting him down preemptively. It's not even really clear if Kylo actually knew that Luke went to that island to die out of guilt at what he'd done. I'm sure that there was some intense paranoia over Luke building for Kylo over these years (and I'm sure Snoke fueled the fire, since he was so certain that Luke was the one destined to rise against Kylo as his "light to meet it".) 

So Kylo may have been just waiting for Luke to arrive one day and attempt to finish the job. Sure explains his visceral and over-the-top reaction to finally seeing Luke again. I don't think "fire every gun we have on that man" was just an act of pettiness
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Post by PalmettoBlue on Mon 25 Dec 2017, 10:14 am

@ZioRen wrote:
@motherofpearl1 wrote:
@CienaRee wrote:I was reading some comments on tumblr and someone pointed out how gross and unacceptable Luke searching in Ben's mind was considering how Snoke has been doing the same thing for years and I realized how true that statement was.I hadn't really thought about that part since learning the true story behind Ben's fall was tragic enough but it just makes Luke's betrayal and murder impulse even worse since he was someone who basically raised Ben and was his uncle and he did the same thing the predator Snoke did but presented it as doing it for the ''greater good''.No wonder Luke went to exile and Ben fell to the DS. That poor boy was betrayed by everyone that he thought loved and cared for him. Evil or Very Mad Crying or Very sad Mad
@CienaRee

It is so ironic that Luke said he couldn't save him..... he didn't even try. He could have tried when Rey and Kylo were touching hands through their bond, but no.
@motherofpearl1

I was saying this in another thread. Thing is, there's no way Luke could ever be the one to exert the proper influence on Kylo to inspire him to turn himself at this point. Because it's WAY too late.

If, instead of Luke giving up and hiding out on some island after his mistake, he'd actually been out in the galaxy determined to fight Snoke and do right by Kylo, things may have been much different. Kylo may have still been angry and hurt and not trust Luke at all, but seeing someone willing to fight for you is powerful. And in this case, Luke would have been a known entity.

Instead, Luke did nothing. He never tried, which, if I were Kylo, I would see as confirmation that my uncle had truly given up on me and was really about to kill me in that room. Luke became some dangerous thing hiding in the shadows and who knew when he was going to emerge again and strike. So Kylo was hunting him down preemptively. It's not even really clear if Kylo actually knew that Luke went to that island to die out of guilt at what he'd done. I'm sure that there was some intense paranoia over Luke building for Kylo over these years (and I'm sure Snoke fueled the fire, since he was so certain that Luke was the one destined to rise against Kylo as his "light to meet it".) 

So Kylo may have been just waiting for Luke to arrive one day and attempt to finish the job. Sure explains his visceral and over-the-top reaction to finally seeing Luke again. I don't think "fire every gun we have on that man" was just an act of pettiness
@ZioRen

The back story between the two very much explains the marketing with Luke positioned as Kylo’s demon.
When they stopped firing on him, Kylo felt such a relief...you could just feel it.
Adam Driver is a gift to this fandom.
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Post by ZioRen on Mon 25 Dec 2017, 10:22 am

@PalmettoBlue

For sure! I think I even said earlier in this thread that Kylo's reaction to thinking he'd finally gotten rid of Luke reminded me of someone who'd just exorcised a demon. It's the little nuances that are super powerful in this movie. 

I think deep down, Kylo is terrified of Luke. And that is the absolute ultimate failure of a parental figure, much moreso than being the cause of rage.
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Post by motherofpearl1 on Mon 25 Dec 2017, 10:28 am

The one thing I like is Luke knew he had made a terrible mistake. I think that's why he sacrificed himself at the end. Problem is, Kylo doesn't need anyone else to die for him, he needs someone to live for him. It's fascinating reading the differing opinions of Reylo fans who want Ben redeemed - some of us think he should save himself, some of us think he should be saved by Rey. I think.....they should save each other. Because much as Rey loves Finn he is far more suited to someone like Rose. I really wonder just what the future holds for Rey- what will the Resistance do when they find out she has a Force bond with the new Supreme leader.
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Post by ZioRen on Mon 25 Dec 2017, 10:39 am

I think the distinction between someone 'saving' Kylo and Kylo saving himself is pointless, personally. There isn't a difference fundamentally, though I suppose it can be argued that Rey's agency would be weakened if she kept chasing after Kylo to try and "save him" even as he spurned her at every turn. And I think it's that idea that people are so against.

I think everyone knows that someone has to want to change themselves for the better in order to actually change. Someone else LITERALLY can't change you. They can't alter your mind. It's a choice you make to be better. All it means if you believe someone "saved you" or that you "changed for them" is that somebody didn't give up on you and inspired you to change yourself.
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Post by motherofpearl1 on Mon 25 Dec 2017, 10:43 am

I just read a comment on Quora asking what the most disturbing creature in sci fi is? Annoyingly they woudn't accept anything from SW but to me it's Snoke. Not because of his Force powrs, but because he is technically a child predator who abused a young boy practically from birth, and not even his own family realised it until it was too late.
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Post by Rimfaxe96 on Mon 25 Dec 2017, 11:13 am

I really, really wish they'd gone with Claudia Grey's storyline regarding Ben's turn. It would have been so easy too; so many turned against Leia when her ancestry was made public, even tried to have her assassinated. They could have just let some of Luke's students turn against him and Luke, Ben overdoing his self-defense by killing them and running off to Snoke afterwards (whose warnings of upcoming betrayal by his so-called camerads would be confirmed), without having to sacrifice Luke's whole past arc... and it would have been more understandable for the viewer too (who hasn't had a wrong/shifty friend at least once in their lives?).

Urrrrgh. Then again, they probably had no clue about what was written in those books. Not even Daisy Ridley has any clue, and she's playing the friggin' main character. Kinda sad how the writers at Lucasfilms are apparently not interested in creating new non-inconsistent lore, despite having removed all the old lore. It's really bugging me now post-TLJ.
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Post by vaderito on Mon 25 Dec 2017, 11:37 am

My problem with what Luke did is the same I have with Poe's stupidity reducing the Resistance to about 30 people from thousands or hundreds. There's movie desire to make them complex while immediately trying to gloss over it and give them validation. Luke's act went from trying to kill Ben (Ben's POV) to "no, not really, I just turned it on for a sec but Ben woke up at the wrong moment and instead of thinking that I'm using the saber as a flashlight he concluded - I don't even know why - that I was trying to kill him" (Luke's POV) which is a blatant attempt to defuse the shock and make Luke appear less bad. IMO< either go through with it full stop or don't bother. half-baked solutions never work cause a) Luke fans are still going to be miffed that the idea even crossed his mind and b) fans who hate cop outs will hate it copped out. Likewise, Poe's stupidity/mutiny/secret idiotic plan/bravado had terrible results yet it was all brushed off with "I like him" Me too" (Why? After all terrible mess he's responsible for why is he let off the hook as if he's a kid who broke a toy?), "Follow him" (Why? Just because he finally called speeders off and figured out that Luke ex machina was going to save their sorry butts?). I hate that. Again, either go through with it without pulling any punches or don't even try, come up with something else.
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Post by ZioRen on Mon 25 Dec 2017, 11:53 am

To be fair, even if Ben knew that Luke decided not to do it, it still wouldn't look much better. Imagine you woke up with the parent you loved and trusted at the side of your bed with a gun or knife raised. Even if you knew they weren't going to do it in that moment, would you ever trust them again? That is some seriously psychologically scarring stuff and I don't think Luke's explanation downplays the effect it had on Ben. 

And the thing is, it wasn't a full misunderstanding. Luke DID think about killing Ben in his sleep, and even got as far as lighting his weapon to take the strike. That is never going to go away, be remedied, or be okay.
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Post by motherofpearl1 on Mon 25 Dec 2017, 11:57 am

@ZioRen wrote:To be fair, even if Ben knew that Luke decided not to do it, it still wouldn't look much better. Imagine you woke up with the parent you loved and trusted at the side of your bed with a gun or knife raised. Even if you knew they weren't going to do it in that moment, would you ever trust them again? That is some seriously psychologically scarring stuff and I don't think Luke's explanation downplays the effect it had on Ben. 

And the thing is, it wasn't a full misunderstanding. Luke DID think about killing Ben in his sleep, and even got as far as lighting his weapon to take the strike. That is never going to go away, be remedied, or be okay.
@ZioRen

Luke made exactly the same mistakes as Obi Wan....but the fact that it was his own nephew made it worse.
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Post by Starliteprism on Mon 25 Dec 2017, 1:09 pm

@Starliteprism wrote:
@shii405 wrote:I went to this TLJ art exhibition today and seeing a life sized figure of Kylo, a cute little Japanese boy said "Mommy, it's Kylo Ren!" looking so happy. I feel so conflicted about little boys seeing Kylo Ren as the hero they idolize, just as Luke Skywalker for the 1980s kids. I wonder how does these little kids sees Kylo as a character? The cool bad guy or they think he's a good guy now after TLJ? Since the Jedi is a girl, I guess little boys only have Kylo Ren to look up to, the only boy in the saga using a lightsaber? I'm just saying... to save these children's dreams... I think it's imperative for JJ to write a huge, classic redemption arc for Kylo with a happy ending. That's all rabbit
@shii405

My 5-year old daughter LOVES Kylo Ren. :-p
@Starliteprism

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Post by Starliteprism on Mon 25 Dec 2017, 1:10 pm

@Rei of Sunshine wrote:
@MrsWindu wrote:@Cowgirlsamurai

That’s just too cute. My 7 yr old said yesterday after seeing TLJ ‘ Kylo used to be good and he can be again’ bless her

@shii405

Here’s my girl with her lightsabers attached (great marketing from the toy manufacturer) although not quite a double bladed staff she’s very keen on this set up with the relevant lights and sounds

Discussion: Kylo Ren/Ben Solo in TLJ  - Page 18 C2215d10
@MrsWindu

I'm sorry that I have to say this with your kid's pic. But that joining of lightsabers is somewhat coded Freudian language or something.

When I saw toy builders ad for this I was laughing so hard.
@Rei of Sunshine

I did that with our sabers a few months ago and my husband was in shock, didn't realise they connected like that. Made me laugh.
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Post by Lucina on Mon 25 Dec 2017, 1:35 pm

@Rimfaxe96 wrote:I really, really wish they'd gone with Claudia Grey's storyline regarding Ben's turn. It would have been so easy too; so many turned against Leia when her ancestry was made public, even tried to have her assassinated. They could have just let some of Luke's students turn against him and Luke, Ben overdoing his self-defense by killing them and running off to Snoke afterwards (whose warnings of upcoming betrayal by his so-called camerads would be confirmed), without having to sacrifice Luke's whole past arc... and it would have been more understandable for the viewer too (who hasn't had a wrong/shifty friend at least once in their lives?).

Urrrrgh. Then again, they probably had no clue about what was written in those books. Not even Daisy Ridley has any clue, and she's playing the friggin' main character. Kinda sad how the writers at Lucasfilms are apparently not interested in creating new non-inconsistent lore, despite having removed all the old lore. It's really bugging me now post-TLJ.
@Rimfaxe96

I think you’re spot on. I’m one of the people who has a huge problem with how the Luke/Ben backstory was handled in TLJ. I didn’t think that Luke’s actions were in-character.

The Vader reveal as the catalyst for Ben’s fall would have worked so much better. Imagine Luke being absent from the temple when the truth about Vader is revealed to the galaxy. Luke’s other students could have attacked Ben, with him having to kill them in self-defense. Luke could have returned to the temple just in time to witness Ben killing them or seeing the aftermath of it. Thinking that Ben had betrayed him and destroyed all his life’s work (Luke already sensed some darkness in Ben after all), Luke could have gotten so angry in that moment that he attacked his nephew (which is more in-character for Luke than creeping up on his nephew while he’s sleeping...). Being furious at his uncle’s betrayal (lying to him about his bloodline and trying to kill him), Ben could have blown up the whole place and run off. This of course would have been the perfect moment for Snoke to lure Ben to his side (Your family lied to you. They didn’t trust you etc.). Luke might have realised only later what had actually happened.

This would have also explained why Luke became so pessimistic. Luke’s greatest victory was redeeming his father. The parentage reveal in ESB was very traumatic for him but he was able to make peace with it because he witnessed his father coming back to the light side. While Luke was able to forgive his father, the galaxy did not. To see Vader’s legacy come back to haunt him and his family despite everything that he had achieved in the OT and in the years after that must have been a huge blow for Luke.
And of course Luke would feel responsible for Ben’s turn, because keeping the truth about his grandfather from him, ultimately resulted in Ben being more vulnerable to Snoke’s influence.
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Post by Night Huntress on Mon 25 Dec 2017, 1:48 pm

@Lucina wrote:
@Rimfaxe96 wrote:I really, really wish they'd gone with Claudia Grey's storyline regarding Ben's turn. It would have been so easy too; so many turned against Leia when her ancestry was made public, even tried to have her assassinated. They could have just let some of Luke's students turn against him and Luke, Ben overdoing his self-defense by killing them and running off to Snoke afterwards (whose warnings of upcoming betrayal by his so-called camerads would be confirmed), without having to sacrifice Luke's whole past arc... and it would have been more understandable for the viewer too (who hasn't had a wrong/shifty friend at least once in their lives?).

Urrrrgh. Then again, they probably had no clue about what was written in those books. Not even Daisy Ridley has any clue, and she's playing the friggin' main character. Kinda sad how the writers at Lucasfilms are apparently not interested in creating new non-inconsistent lore, despite having removed all the old lore. It's really bugging me now post-TLJ.
@Rimfaxe96

I think you’re spot on. I’m one of the people who has a huge problem with how the Luke/Ben backstory was handled in TLJ. I didn’t think that Luke’s actions were in-character.

The Vader reveal as the catalyst for Ben’s fall would have worked so much better. Imagine Luke being absent from the temple when the truth about Vader is revealed to the galaxy. Luke’s other students could have attacked Ben, with him having to kill them in self-defense. Luke could have returned to the temple just in time to witness Ben killing them or seeing the aftermath of it. Thinking that Ben had betrayed him and destroyed all his life’s work (Luke already sensed some darkness in Ben after all), Luke could have gotten so angry in that moment that he attacked his nephew (which is more in-character for Luke than creeping up on his nephew while he’s sleeping...). Being furious at his uncle’s betrayal (lying to him about his bloodline and trying to kill him), Ben could have blown up the whole place and run off. This of course would have been the perfect moment for Snoke to lure Ben to his side (Your family lied to you. They didn’t trust you etc.). Luke might have realised only later what had actually happened.

This would have also explained why Luke became so pessimistic. Luke’s greatest victory was redeeming his father. The parentage reveal in ESB was very traumatic for him but he was able to make peace with it because he witnessed his father coming back to the light side. While Luke was able to forgive his father, the galaxy did not. To see Vader’s legacy come back to haunt him and his family despite everything that he had achieved in the OT and in the years after that must have been a huge blow for Luke.
And of course Luke would feel responsible for Ben’s turn, because keeping the truth about his grandfather from him, ultimately resulted in Ben being more vulnerable to Snoke’s influence.
@Lucina

Yes, I totally agree- overall I loved TLJ but I was very disappointed they didn't use that great opportunity for Ben's backstory /fall to the dark side. If they wanted to put some bigger blame on Luke they still could've made Luke fight Ben and stand by his other students against him because he didn't know at that time who attacked first and assumed it was Ben. That would explain why he felt so guilty without making him an attempted murderer of his sleeping innocent nephew.
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Discussion: Kylo Ren/Ben Solo in TLJ  - Page 18 Empty Re: Discussion: Kylo Ren/Ben Solo in TLJ

Post by MrsWindu on Mon 25 Dec 2017, 2:13 pm

I just thought I’d post this here - from the introduction of The Art of TLJ
....the solution is sometimes surrender and sacrifice, not charging in recklessly...r

Discussion: Kylo Ren/Ben Solo in TLJ  - Page 18 D6a57310
Discussion: Kylo Ren/Ben Solo in TLJ  - Page 18 481a1210
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