Discussion: Kylo Ren/Ben Solo in TLJ

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Re: Discussion: Kylo Ren/Ben Solo in TLJ

Post by rey09 on Fri 13 Apr 2018, 7:54 pm

@californiagirl wrote:
@Cowgirlsamurai wrote:
@Kessel wrote:@ZioRen
@Cowgirlsamurai wrote:I just hope the ending of IX is less ambiguous. I do NOT want there to be the lingering question of “Was there a romance or not?” where people can argue that they “didn’t see it.” That would be pretty unsatisfying. Neutral
@Cowgirlsamurai

That would drive me nuts too. As much as I liked TLJ for building on the important and intimate connection developing between Rey and Kylo, some people are still denying it since there was no kiss or overt declaration of love. I’m hoping that Episode IX makes everything very clear when it comes to Rey and Kylo.
@Kessel

People are still in denial that the throne room proposal was a declaration of love even though it was so obvious to us. That's why there's all the "Kylo's lying" "Kylo's manipulating her" "Kylo just wants Rey for her power" interpretations flying around. It's soooo ambiguous that you can choose to see it any way you want. That's why I want IX to deliver the "IT WAS A ROMANCE!" payoff we deserve, lol. Like if they hold hand and smile at each other at the end, that won't be enough. A forehead touch probably won't be enough. People will still say that they're just Force equals (coworkers Laughing) who understand each other. I want it to be be made clear that Kylo probably won't be the last "Skywalker" (wink, wink).
@Cowgirlsamurai

I'm honestly expecting at least one kiss, and probably multiple ones. Quite likely even a subplot/main plot centered around their romance. That's not even just Reylo goggles, I genuinely believe JJ will deliver. Very Happy
@californiagirl

I honestly think that when JJ sat down to write the new trilogy, it came down to one idea- A story between two force users, one darksider and one light side who end up falling in love.

Literally everything, everyone else is an accessory, including the legacy characters. If people understand that basic idea, the reason why Rian did what he did to Luke is obvious- it isolates the two of them even more.

JJ said this way back when: "We really tried to look at it from the inside out. What makes this story have a beating heart? What makes it romantic or fun or surprising or heartbreaking or hysterically funny? We simply approached this narrative from the point of view that this is a story about a young man and a young woman, not with the idea that we can do anything we want."
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Re: Discussion: Kylo Ren/Ben Solo in TLJ

Post by Dar-ren19 on Fri 13 Apr 2018, 9:24 pm

@Night Huntress wrote:
@Dar-ren19 wrote:
I thought Adam Driver didn’t have to audition at all?
@Dar-ren19

No, he didn't- that's what I meant with Kathleen Kennedy chose him personally based on some other movie she saw or worked with him? (I can't remember).

All the other actors had to audition multiple times...and I think other actors auditioned for Kylo's character because Adam needed time to think and they weren't sure he would take the role.
@Night Huntress

Ahh ok, thanks for clarifying Smile

What were Adam's concerns? Do we know? I know he's a fan, so was it something to do with the prequels and how they were received?
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Re: Discussion: Kylo Ren/Ben Solo in TLJ

Post by Kylo Rey on Fri 13 Apr 2018, 9:31 pm

@Dar-ren19 wrote:
@Night Huntress wrote:
@Dar-ren19 wrote:
I thought Adam Driver didn’t have to audition at all?
@Dar-ren19

No, he didn't- that's what I meant with Kathleen Kennedy chose him personally based on some other movie she saw or worked with him? (I can't remember).

All the other actors had to audition multiple times...and I think other actors auditioned for Kylo's character because Adam needed time to think and they weren't sure he would take the role.
@Night Huntress

Ahh ok, thanks for clarifying Smile

What were Adam's concerns? Do we know? I know he's a fan, so was it something to do with the prequels and how they were received?
@Dar-ren19

He seems to have disdain for blockbuster movies and how superficial they are. He said JJ talked about character and story first though, which must have allayed his fears. I don't think he would have took on the role of it had just been a simple Vader wannabe knockoff. The complexity must have been a big factor. In addition, killing Han Solo, one of the most beloved and iconic characters in cinema would give anyone pause, especially when you are playing that character's son. He actually said that he felt sick and almost vomited watching that scene at the TFA premiere. Then of course, there's the fame that SW brings and the loss of anonymity. SW fandom is tough, just look at how they treated Jake Lloyd and Rian Johnson.
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Re: Discussion: Kylo Ren/Ben Solo in TLJ

Post by Dar-ren19 on Fri 13 Apr 2018, 9:51 pm

@Kylo Rey wrote:
@Dar-ren19 wrote:
@Night Huntress wrote:
@Dar-ren19 wrote:
I thought Adam Driver didn’t have to audition at all?
@Dar-ren19

No, he didn't- that's what I meant with Kathleen Kennedy chose him personally based on some other movie she saw or worked with him? (I can't remember).

All the other actors had to audition multiple times...and I think other actors auditioned for Kylo's character because Adam needed time to think and they weren't sure he would take the role.
@Night Huntress

Ahh ok, thanks for clarifying Smile

What were Adam's concerns? Do we know? I know he's a fan, so was it something to do with the prequels and how they were received?
@Dar-ren19

He seems to have disdain for blockbuster movies and how superficial they are. He said JJ talked about character and story first though, which must have allayed his fears. I don't think he would have took on the role of it had just been a simple Vader wannabe knockoff. The complexity must have been a big factor. In addition, killing Han Solo, one of the most beloved and iconic characters in cinema would give anyone pause, especially when you are playing that character's son. He actually said that he felt sick and almost vomited watching that scene at the TFA premiere. Then of course, there's the fame that SW brings and the loss of anonymity. SW fandom is tough, just look at how they treated Jake Lloyd and Rian Johnson.
@Kylo Rey

Yes, I get those concerns completely. You give some you get some. Although, once he's done this, he's totally set in terms of being able to not just get the roles he wants in the films he wants, but also to be able to greenlight projects that otherwise don't get the funding/distribution they deserve. Wasn't Don Quixote one of those?
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Re: Discussion: Kylo Ren/Ben Solo in TLJ

Post by ISeeAnIsland on Fri 13 Apr 2018, 11:15 pm

@Kylo Rey wrote:Yeah, Adam didn't have to audition. Kathleen Kennedy first met him and had the opportunity to work with him on Spielberg's Lincoln. She said that as soon as they started to think of who could play Kylo, Adam was the first and obvious choice. JJ didn't know him as well (he had seen him in the first season of Girls though) but was immediately convinced when he met him. From then it was just a matter of convincing Adam to take the part. Adam has also said in previous interviews that he doesn't actually look for something common in his roles or whatever and that the director comes first and foremost. So JJ and Kathy were absolutely instrumental in convincing him to take the role; he is a big coup for a blockbuster franchise like Star Wars. He took about six months to accept, one of the reasons probably, in his own words  is because he has “very strong opinions about Hollywood movies and how they can be a waste of resources and seem totally gratuitous and dumbed down for an audience and sacrifice story for spectacle," and in his discussions with JJ, story and character came first. Other actors were considered for the role in case Adam didn't accept like Michael Fassbender, Hugo Weaving and Eddie Redmayne.

@motherofpearl1 TLJ is also the only one of the series that brought me closest to tears. It's so heartfelt.

@snufkin Nina Gold is a casting genius. She was also involved in casting most of the Game of Thrones stars, and whatever faults that show has (which are many), the cast isn't one of them, particularly the young kids who have matured great. The acting in TFA is pretty good, but it's even better in TLJ imo, and it's largely helped by it being the most character driven SW movie yet. Daisy, Adam (who are both even better here) Mark, Carrie etc are fantastic. KMT was a great newcomer. As annoying as Poe was, Oscar was pretty good too. Boyega was probably the weakest. The ST so far has been very character driven so far.
@Kylo Rey

I still think it had to be a reporting error about Hugo Weaving being considered for the role--he's only a few years younger than Carrie. It had to have been the role of Poe or someone else that he was up for.

Michael Fassbender would seem to be too old for Kylo, but I could see him having been considered given his history with having played an effective and sympathetic Mr. Rochester in Jane Eyre.
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Re: Discussion: Kylo Ren/Ben Solo in TLJ

Post by snufkin on Fri 13 Apr 2018, 11:38 pm

Found it, caveat that it's Slate, home of the "you're doing [incredibly banal thing] wrong" explainers. Although fist bump with the author for singling out WTF is Greg Grunberg doing in there? 'cause I loathe that guy going back to him getting added to Felicity and bumped up to a regular thanks to being JJ's childhood BFF

The Force Awakens Is the First Star Wars Movie Without a Single Bad Performance

Nowhere is that represented so clearly as in the fact that every single performance in The Force Awakens is good.

Every single one! Daisy Ridley and John Boyega? Great. Totally appealing and game. Oscar Isaac? A worthy wisecracking Han Solo for a new generation. Adam Driver? Very good, even in funny scenes where he’s just constipatedly trying to use the Force on people. Domhnall Gleeson works up a good head of steam as a bad guy. Lupita Nyong’o and Gwendoline Christie are fun even though you don’t see their actual faces. All the original trilogy actors are at least good, even the ones who were sometimes not good the first time around. This is the kind of movie in which even tiny little parts are played by such estimable thespians as Max Von Sydow and … well, Greg Grunberg, but he’s fine, he doesn’t blow it.

The Force Awakens is a totally professional and capable Star Wars movie for which lots of people were paid tons of money to make sure the casting and performances range from good to great. Is this a betrayal of the junky, cobbled-together spirit of the originals? A little bit, maybe. The Force Awakens scuffs its high-lustre finish every once in a while, but it’s in no way a bucket of bolts.
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Re: Discussion: Kylo Ren/Ben Solo in TLJ

Post by motherofpearl1 on Sat 14 Apr 2018, 12:04 am

Then it's followed by TLJ, probably the best SW film to date and featuring at least two performances that are Oscar worthy. I am actually mad neither Adam or Mark got a nod, even with the Empire awards...Adam's acting without words is astonishing and frankly Mark gave the performance of his career.
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Re: Discussion: Kylo Ren/Ben Solo in TLJ

Post by californiagirl on Sat 14 Apr 2018, 12:32 am

@motherofpearl1 wrote:Then it's followed by TLJ, probably the best SW film to date and featuring at least two performances that are Oscar worthy. I am actually mad neither Adam or Mark got a nod, even with the Empire awards...Adam's acting without words is astonishing and frankly Mark gave the performance of his career.
@motherofpearl1

Nor is Adam nominated for a Saturn Award (the genre heaven awards), where he actually won best supporting actor for TFA (Mark has a lead actor nom, which is sort of odd). Despite the fact TLJ has 13 other nominations (TFA had 15). A truly bizzare omission from all the awards that cater directly to the SW crowd, given that he gave the most lauded performance in the movie.

We might hope for an MTV or Teen Choice Award in the summer for Adam, but that's about it.
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Re: Discussion: Kylo Ren/Ben Solo in TLJ

Post by motherofpearl1 on Sat 14 Apr 2018, 6:04 am

@californiagirl wrote:
@motherofpearl1 wrote:Then it's followed by TLJ, probably the best SW film to date and featuring at least two performances that are Oscar worthy. I am actually mad neither Adam or Mark got a nod, even with the Empire awards...Adam's acting without words is astonishing and frankly Mark gave the performance of his career.
@motherofpearl1

Nor is Adam nominated for a Saturn Award (the genre heaven awards), where he actually won best supporting actor for TFA (Mark has a lead actor nom, which is sort of odd). Despite the fact TLJ has 13 other nominations (TFA had 15). A truly bizzare omission from all the awards that cater directly to the SW crowd, given that he gave the most lauded performance in the movie.

We might hope for an MTV or Teen Choice Award in the summer for Adam, but that's about it.
@californiagirl

Adam's performance in TLJ reminded me of the one Sally Hawkins gave in The Shape of Water where she deservedly got an Oscar nom. Sally's performance of course was purely non verbal, but it was the way Adam expressed so much emotion without using words that impressed me the most. The scene where he is in the lift post Snoke's rebuke and prior to the helmet smash particularly stuck in my mind - I could practically feel his complete hurt and sense of rejection to such a degree I wanted to kill Snoke myself! And I'm a mature middle aged woman, not an impressionable teenage girl. It happened again at the very end when he flinched as Rey slammed the door. In fact its purely because of Adam's acting in that scene that I actually felt mad at Rey for giving him the cold shoulder, when she's the heroine we are supposed to root for. It's a masterful performance in its very subtlety, and it annoys me that its been overlooked, just as Mark has for giving Luke Skywalker such a terrific ending.
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Re: Discussion: Kylo Ren/Ben Solo in TLJ

Post by rawpowah on Sat 14 Apr 2018, 6:49 am

@Blood Moon wrote:Hugo Weaving was considered for the Kylo part?
WTF, he is somewhere in his late 50's I think. How would that have played out, he can't pass for someone going through adolescence right. I thought Lee Pace was one time considered.
@Blood Moon

I'm seriously wondering the same thing lol. Fassbender I can believe because he made a very convincing Rochester. And what is Kylo if not Space Rochester but without the secret wife in the attic?

But Weaving?
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Re: Discussion: Kylo Ren/Ben Solo in TLJ

Post by Night Huntress on Sat 14 Apr 2018, 7:53 am

@rawpowah wrote:
I'm seriously wondering the same thing lol. Fassbender I can believe because he made a very convincing Rochester. And what is Kylo if not Space Rochester but without the secret wife in the attic?
@rawpowah

Sorry, I really love Fassbender - but he is too old as well imo- no way could he look like 29. No
Don't know if he really auditioned but I'm glad Adam got the role anyway... - he can pull off the immature emo son of Han & Leia perfectly.
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Re: Discussion: Kylo Ren/Ben Solo in TLJ

Post by motherofpearl1 on Sat 14 Apr 2018, 9:12 am

Adam can be vulnerable as well as menacing, and that is an essential quality to Ben Solo's character. You have to feel for him.
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Re: Discussion: Kylo Ren/Ben Solo in TLJ

Post by Dar-ren19 on Sat 14 Apr 2018, 11:44 am

@motherofpearl1 that’s such a perfect assessment of what he brought to the role. And I agree on the academy nods or lack there of. I’m also no spring chicken and I was mesmerized by his performance as Ben/Kylo. His capacity to bring out the inherent duality (as the split personality quality exhibited even by the name(s) of the character as the background) is just astounding. I came in late to this so I’ve not been reading as many reviews etc...is this assessment industry-wide? Do other people see this? I did see one or two reviewers or industry people note this about what he’s done here — that he deserved an Oscar nod...
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Re: Discussion: Kylo Ren/Ben Solo in TLJ

Post by californiagirl on Sat 14 Apr 2018, 12:38 pm

@Dar-ren19 wrote:@motherofpearl1 that’s such a perfect assessment of what he brought to the role. And I agree on the academy nods or lack there of. I’m also no spring chicken and I was mesmerized by his performance as Ben/Kylo. His capacity to bring out the inherent duality (as the split personality quality exhibited even by the name(s) of the character as the background) is just astounding. I came in late to this so I’ve not been reading as many reviews etc...is this assessment industry-wide? Do other people see this? I did see one or two reviewers or industry people note this about what he’s done here — that he deserved an Oscar nod...
@Dar-ren19

Adam and Mark were the most praised performances of TLJ. Kylo is the one character literally everyone loves, even people who hate the film. He was honestly the one universally loved aspect of TLJ. So the total lack of official recognition thus far is odd. Here's to hoping for a few smaller awards come summertime.
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Re: Discussion: Kylo Ren/Ben Solo in TLJ

Post by Riri on Sat 14 Apr 2018, 1:03 pm

Yes almost all the positive reviews single out Adam and Mark's acting performances.

Im guessing Adam didn't get an oscar nod because i guess the Academy Awards arent too fond of blockbuster movies, however many critics said his performance was Oscar worthy Smile

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Re: Discussion: Kylo Ren/Ben Solo in TLJ

Post by SoloSideCousin on Sat 14 Apr 2018, 2:27 pm

@Riri wrote:Yes almost all the positive reviews single out Adam and Mark's acting performances.

Im guessing Adam didn't get an oscar nod because i guess the Academy Awards arent too fond of blockbuster movies, however many critics said his performance was Oscar worthy Smile
@Riri

I think one reason why they might not have given Adam a Best Supporting Actor nod is that the Academy gets annoyed sometimes when producers try to put "lead actor" performances in the supporting category. Also, there is the bias against blockbuster movies sometimes, like you said, with a few exceptions (Heath Ledger, Melissa McCarthy).

As for these Empire/Saturn awards, the snubbing of Adam is really ridiculous, but in the end it doesn't matter. The critics know that he was incredible, and even more importantly, so do directors and producers. If Cannes picks up Don Quixote, Adam will be at Cannes for two movies. The Noah Baumbach movie might be released at the end of the year on Netflix (don't know that for sure, but those movies have a fast turnaround), and it will be premiered at one of the prestigious film festivals.

Adam's going to be on Broadway in 2019. He's got Annette and possibly that Torture Report movie in the pipeline, and then of course, Episode IX. In fact, Adam may very well get an Oscar nod for Episode IX because he will have three movies of unbelievable work, sort of like Peter Jackson didn't get full recognition for LOTR until Return of the King came out.
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Re: Discussion: Kylo Ren/Ben Solo in TLJ

Post by Kylo Rey on Sat 14 Apr 2018, 2:32 pm

@Dar-ren19 wrote:@motherofpearl1 that’s such a perfect assessment of what he brought to the role. And I agree on the academy nods or lack there of. I’m also no spring chicken and I was mesmerized by his performance as Ben/Kylo. His capacity to bring out the inherent duality (as the split personality quality exhibited even by the name(s) of the character as the background) is just astounding. I came in late to this so I’ve not been reading as many reviews etc...is this assessment industry-wide? Do other people see this? I did see one or two reviewers or industry people note this about what he’s done here — that he deserved an Oscar nod...
@Dar-ren19

Adam Driver is a critics darling haha, not just in SW but his other movies in general. Critics liked his TFA performance and he got raves for TLJ. This is going to be an excuse for me to post reviews of critics gushing over Adam:

Which brings us to Kylo Ren himself, superbly played by Adam Driver. He is now a wounded, damaged figure and he insinuates himself like a sensually predatory Satan into our consciousness in a series of dreamlike cross-cutting dialogue sequences that are the most successful part of the film. What does Kylo Ren want? As ever, the closeups on Driver’s face are gorgeous. He is never the Easter Island statue of hardness that it is possible to misremember: he is tremulous, unsure of himself, like an unhappy teenager, and his mouth seems almost on the point of trembling with tears. That breathy, resonant voice is unmistakable even from behind a neo-Vader mask. This is a villain who seems troubled about the mantle of evil on his shoulders; and, again, there are surprises in store about what Ren has in mind for the future and what his past relationship with his Uncle Luke actually was.

And Kylo's Dark Side journey continues, chock full of enough pain and pathos to make Anakin Skywalker's six-movie story look paper-thin by comparison.

Adam Driver and Daisy Ridley really embraced their roles in this and shine because of it. There is a scene with both of them in Supreme Leader Snoke’s chamber that will go down as an all-timer Star Wars moment. It’s proof that their incredible introductions in The Force Awakens were no fluke and you’ll be grateful once again for their casting.

A more assured Ridley stands toe-to-toe with him, but is even better in her ‘relationship’ with Ben Solo. Johnson’s conception of their bond is potentially embarrassing: Ridley and Driver not only make it work, they make it gripping.

The Last Jedi is Driver’s to rule as much as Force Awakens was Ridley’s, and he’s awesome in it — Kylo is blockbuster cinema’s most magnetic and unpredictable antagonist since Heath Ledger’s Dark Knight Joker.

Adam Driver delivers the other great performance in this movie. Kylo Ren initially looked like a cheap Darth Vader knockoff but he’s proven to be the franchise’s most interesting new character. Driver’s astonishing range — he can play a petulant child in one scene, and a sensitive heartthrob in the next — serves Johnson well.

LOVE this one

But this may be the first Star Wars movie that makes the dangerous allure of the dark side feel like more than a vague, unconvincing threat. Much of that comes down to the script’s one brilliant innovation: a kind of involuntary psychic communion between Rey and Kylo Ren, whose opposing positions in the cosmic struggle don’t prevent them from developing a certain tense chemistry. If it was hard to ever buy that Luke could actually be coaxed to the dark side by a deep-breathing cyborg autocrat, Driver’s oddly sympathetic performance almost seduces you into believing that souls are actually at stake. It’s a real relationship, this love-hate bond between two offspring of the old world.

Despite his aspirations toward it, there is no grandeur in Kylo Ren. But as a character, he verges on being too big and too complicated for the movies he's been a part of, especially as Adam Driver plays him, with a mixture of pain and hurt so raw it threatens to rend the fabric of the series every time he's on screen. Driver is terrific as Kylo Ren, so good that his wounded smoldering sometimes puts the character at odds with castwide acting that's otherwise calibrated to the straightforward pitch of an interstellar adventure. It feels as if Driver's working in 24-bit when everyone else has committed to 8.

Much as George Lucas cast the unproven Hamill to face off against a cool black mask voiced by the legendarily piped James Earl Jones, Abrams cast the unproven Ridley to dance with rocketing A-lister Driver, who’s maxing out the boom mics, blowtorching the scenery, and stealing every second he’s onscreen.

The heir-apparent to Ledger’s performance in The Dark Knight, Adam Driver is a revelation in Star Wars: The Last Jedi. Kylo Ren has quickly become the best blockbuster villain to grace the silver screen since Ledger’s Joker. That everyone doesn’t outright hate the character who murdered Han Solo in 2015’s The Force Awakens is a testament to Driver’s performance. He’s conflicted, sometimes sympathetic, sometimes utterly despicable, skilled, ambitious—and all of this while wearing surprisingly (upsettingly, for some) high-waisted pants and being totally jacked.

All of this to say that what Driver brings to this movie that very few modern villains do is sexual tension. There’s a real will-they/won’t-they for Kylo Ren and Rey (Daisy Ridley) that’s fun to watch and isn’t really found in other hero/villain matchups these days. Avengers: Infinity War, for instance, is not going to have audiences writing romantic fan-fiction about Captain America and Thanos because of the chemistry between Chris Evans and Josh Brolin. Probably. But because Driver plays Kylo’s conflicting emotions and desires so well, it’s easy for the audience to invest in a potential romance between he and Rey—and to feel disappointed when that investment doesn’t pan out.

Kylo Ren, who started life in The Force Awakens as an emo Vader clone but has been made infinitely more complex by Rian Johnson's latest installment, isn't simply evil—he's someone who's driven to do evil by a disturbed mental state. An unhinged, emotionally traumatized Adam Driver plays the character with the conviction of someone who, if he weren't starring in a popcorn sci-fi movie, might be a contender for this Oscar season's Best Supporting Actor category.





And here is a collection of reviews talking about Kylo and Rey's dynamic specifically:
https://andthebalance.tumblr.com/post/169273881406/reviews-talking-about-rey-and-kylos-dynamic

Sorry I got a bit carried away lmao. But it's clear that critics adore him, and he even garners praise in negative reviews. It's also clear that a lot of them think he's too good for Star Wars.
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Re: Discussion: Kylo Ren/Ben Solo in TLJ

Post by motherofpearl1 on Mon 23 Apr 2018, 2:43 am

Just found this post on thereylovoid ....it sums up what I think Reys feelings are, although I could be wrong!
https://interstellaireylo.tumblr.com/post/173173424634/what-he-hoped-for-was-for-two-broken-people-to
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Re: Discussion: Kylo Ren/Ben Solo in TLJ

Post by SoloSideCousin on Mon 23 Apr 2018, 8:49 pm

@motherofpearl1 wrote:Just found this post on thereylovoid ....it sums up what I think Reys feelings are, although I could be wrong!
https://interstellaireylo.tumblr.com/post/173173424634/what-he-hoped-for-was-for-two-broken-people-to
@motherofpearl1

I think this poster does a very good job of explaining Kylo's point of view, and how it really does look on a surface level.

I haven't had a chance to watch TLJ since the theatre, even though I own the Bluray, lol, so I will say this with the caveat that I might get mad at Rey all over again once I see it again, lol ... But I think deep down Rey definitely has "a thing" for him, and always did from the second she saw his face. The amount of crying involved, the fixing up for him, her getting into his personal space on the elevator, her rushing to him, her willingness to tell him her story and to reach out to him, the look on her face when he killed Snoke, the way she trusted him in the fight (thigh grab), the intensity of her reaction to the vision all scream that she has serious feelings for him whether she wants them or not.

I think she wants those feelings for Ben Solo, but can't quite deal with the Kylo Ren part of the love match. I think a lot of that could be put down to immaturity in that she has a very simplistic worldview (good or bad and nothing in between) at this point, and I also think that she is pretty unpracticed with feelings in general except her superpower emotions of anger, grit and denial.

I think her behavior in the Poe comic was a good sign that she starting to see the world .. and maybe people ... more complexly. If she can learn to see and appreciate nuance, love for the whole package of Kylo/Ben may not be so scary.
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Re: Discussion: Kylo Ren/Ben Solo in TLJ

Post by motherofpearl1 on Tue 24 Apr 2018, 12:22 am

@SoloSideCousin wrote:
@motherofpearl1 wrote:Just found this post on thereylovoid ....it sums up what I think Reys feelings are, although I could be wrong!
              https://interstellaireylo.tumblr.com/post/173173424634/what-he-hoped-for-was-for-two-broken-people-to
@motherofpearl1

I think this poster does a very good job of explaining Kylo's point of view, and how it really does look on a surface level.

I haven't had a chance to watch TLJ since the theatre, even though I own the Bluray, lol, so I will say this with the caveat that I might get mad at Rey all over again once I see it again, lol ... But I think deep down Rey definitely has "a thing" for him, and always did from the second she saw his face. The amount of crying involved, the fixing up for him, her getting into his personal space on the elevator, her rushing to him, her willingness to tell him her story and to reach out to him, the look on her face when he killed Snoke, the way she trusted him in the fight (thigh grab), the intensity of her reaction to the vision all scream that she has serious feelings for him whether she wants them or not.

I think she wants those feelings for Ben Solo, but can't quite deal with the Kylo Ren part of the love match.  I think a lot of that could be put down to immaturity in that she has a very simplistic worldview (good or bad and nothing in between) at this point, and I also think that she is pretty unpracticed with feelings in general except her superpower emotions of anger, grit and denial.

I think her behavior in the Poe comic was a good sign that she starting to see the world ..  and maybe people ... more complexly. If she can learn to see and appreciate nuance, love for the whole package of Kylo/Ben may not be so scary.
@SoloSideCousin

My opinion exactly of Rey...she grew up more or less isolated, she’s still young and her view of people is still very much black and white. In her mind Kylo is still on the side of ’black’ - she hasn’t yet realised that he actually killed Snoke for her, which was a big step for him, and that looking back over his life the side of ’white’ didn’t hold much appeal for him. Too many willing to put the so called ’greater good’ first, including the uncle he probably hero worshipped, and who tried to murder him! Rey has not idea how damaged he is....in the junior novel it actually says that to save Ben she had to stop Kylo. In fact, to save Ben she has to accept Kylo...just as he has to accept her affection for her friends. Ben/Kylo is literally crying out for unconditional love...something Rey as yet doesn’t realise. I really hope that in IX she’ll start to understand this...and also we will see a different side to the Resistance.
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Re: Discussion: Kylo Ren/Ben Solo in TLJ

Post by snufkin on Tue 24 Apr 2018, 1:29 am

That moment has so many different things coming down on her. Including that look he throws her and she tries to deflect because she's not capable of handling (as @SoloSideCousin puts it) the complexity of the situation with him. Like he's not going to magically transform back into the calligraphy loving nerd he was before the moment in the hut with Luke, she's going to have accept the full ugly package of the parts of his history that aren't so easy. Same with him accepting her and her history without jumping on it with the assumption that she'll go along with him because of what her parents did to her.

If they ever go into the full ramifications of her being forced to admit at that moment what happened with her parents and the magical thinking/repression she's been engaging in as a coping mechanism, it'd probably be in a future novel, not IX. But you'd think that whatever f**ked up co-dependent relationship her parents had and being bad off enough to trade her off for beer money, her actual (brief) real-life experience around that type of relationship is part of why she's a loner/prickly. And part of why she panics and tries to deflect when Ben gives her that look and tries to make his move.
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Re: Discussion: Kylo Ren/Ben Solo in TLJ

Post by Night Huntress on Tue 24 Apr 2018, 1:56 am

people often forget how little time passes between TFA and TLJ - Ben made a huge step in VIII...from killing his own father to prove himself to Snoke to "f*** that ugly old dude. I end him to save my pretty new girlfriend I only knew for a few days and chattet a couple of times with through the force."
But you can't undo years of bad influence and abuse - and unfortunately the situation didn't allow Ben to process everything.

I'm very curious where they will go with him in IX.

I heard many theories that he will be angry and mad at Rey and want to hunt her down blah blah.

I personally don't think so... I think he will be sad, broken but also more calm and slowly starting to change back into himself without Snoke's influence on him.

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Re: Discussion: Kylo Ren/Ben Solo in TLJ

Post by motherofpearl1 on Tue 24 Apr 2018, 5:28 am

Watch both movies and it's glaringly obvious that Kylo loses his temper as a way of coping with his pain....where anyone else would cry he rages. His fury at the end of TLJ was so obviously his broken heart showing itself. Poor little Rey meanwhile, sees people in absolutes and has no idea to cope when they fail to do what she wants. Han died before he let her down. Luke was nothing like she expected. She went to Ben expecting him to come sailing back to the light and a fairytale happy ending... and that didn't happen. Ben Solo may not have experienced the same hardship as Rey but in a way what happened to him was worse. I want very much to see what kind of people they will become going forward, now that Rey has finally realised the truth about her parents, and Kylo no longer has Snoke in his head.
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Re: Discussion: Kylo Ren/Ben Solo in TLJ

Post by Kylo Rey on Tue 24 Apr 2018, 11:05 am

@SoloSideCousin wrote:
@motherofpearl1 wrote:Just found this post on thereylovoid ....it sums up what I think Reys feelings are, although I could be wrong!
              https://interstellaireylo.tumblr.com/post/173173424634/what-he-hoped-for-was-for-two-broken-people-to
@motherofpearl1

I think this poster does a very good job of explaining Kylo's point of view, and how it really does look on a surface level.

I haven't had a chance to watch TLJ since the theatre, even though I own the Bluray, lol, so I will say this with the caveat that I might get mad at Rey all over again once I see it again, lol ... But I think deep down Rey definitely has "a thing" for him, and always did from the second she saw his face. The amount of crying involved, the fixing up for him, her getting into his personal space on the elevator, her rushing to him, her willingness to tell him her story and to reach out to him, the look on her face when he killed Snoke, the way she trusted him in the fight (thigh grab), the intensity of her reaction to the vision all scream that she has serious feelings for him whether she wants them or not.

I think she wants those feelings for Ben Solo, but can't quite deal with the Kylo Ren part of the love match.  I think a lot of that could be put down to immaturity in that she has a very simplistic worldview (good or bad and nothing in between) at this point, and I also think that she is pretty unpracticed with feelings in general except her superpower emotions of anger, grit and denial.

I think her behavior in the Poe comic was a good sign that she starting to see the world ..  and maybe people ... more complexly. If she can learn to see and appreciate nuance, love for the whole package of Kylo/Ben may not be so scary.
@SoloSideCousin

I don't think you're reaching at all. Actions speak louder than words and her actions and body language through the course of TLJ scream attraction but yeah, agreed that she had a thing for him as soon as he unmasked himself for her. There was debate revolving around whether it was simply just surprise and shock over Kylo being a normal looking human and not a scarred or deformed monster or if it was that look. The fact that she pretty much gave him elevator eyes and looked away quickly when she caught him walking towards and looking at her was a sign that she had a crush/attraction towards him though IMO, even if that quickly changed due to the situation. She looked weirdly hopeful for a moment as well when she sees Han confront Kylo on the bridge.

Then even in the beginning of TLJ when she's still in hate mode, she looks transfixed by Kylo when they connect during their first force bond. (Btw, if you watch the FB scenes with headphones, the heavy breathing sounds ridiculously suggestive lol, especially with the absence of other sound and music).

I mean...




And THEN she remembers to shoot him.

Then in the second force bond, her reaction when Kylo turns around even though she should have been expecting it at this point is quite noticeable on rewatches:



That underlying subconscious attraction is there even though she's supposed to be hating him. Definitely something I think Daisy was going for in her performance. I think something really refreshing about their sexual attraction/burgeoning romance is that the obstacles placed in their way aren't the cliche other love interests/love triangles or questioning whether they're attracted to each other (once Rey falls for him, she falls hard and fast), but rather their conflicting views/ideology. They both clearly have feelings for the other and want each other, but they each can't go to the other side yet. Rey's separation of Ben and Kylo as if they were two different people is very simplistic and naive, and something I think she does to make her feelings seem more acceptable. She has to grow and accept both parts of the whole, which is what it's leading to for her in IX, imo. Another period/gothic romance parallel I could see in IX is Rey rejecting the weight of societal expectations and conformity that the Resistance (and antis LOL) will represent by not giving a f**** about what they think about her relationship and doing whatever she wants when it comes to Kylo.


Last edited by Kylo Rey on Tue 24 Apr 2018, 11:54 am; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Discussion: Kylo Ren/Ben Solo in TLJ

Post by motherofpearl1 on Tue 24 Apr 2018, 11:49 am

The thing I like about the ST is how it is full of surprises. You don't expect a stormtrooper to have a conscience. You don't expect the 'villain' to be revealed as young and handsome.You don't expect said villain to be vulnerable and damaged. You don't expect one of the heroes to get killed, and another to turn out as flawed. You don't expect the good looking, cocky pilot to be a jerk. You don't expect the heroine to be a nobody. You don't expect the 'big bad' to get killed off in part 2. The ST has taken all the memorable qualities not only of the original films, but other similar epics and turned them completely around. I have absolutely no idea where IX is going.
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