Discussion: Kylo Ren/Ben Solo in TLJ

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Re: Discussion: Kylo Ren/Ben Solo in TLJ

Post by DeeBee on Sun 17 Dec 2017, 3:09 am

@ISeeAnIsland wrote:
@Night Huntress wrote:OK, so I had a little time thinking about Kylo/Ben in TLJ.

I have to see it at least a second time to really grasp everything- but overall I'm a bit torn...

I do feel compassion for him, because he was abandoned and betrayed by his family and targeted by a dark evil predator since his childhood.

On the other hand... does this really justify his action at the end of VIII? A lot of people have a bad childhood - it's not an excuse for becoming an murderer. And sadly that's what he did to Han and wanted to do with the few people left of the resistance. It had nothing to do with war - it felt for me like kicking someone that already is on the ground. That's why I'm not sure I would be fine with him being redeemed anymore.
I want a happy ending- badly, because I'm a romantic fool... but does he deserves it??? I'm really not sure anymore Cry

For me they overdid it... if he woke up in the throne room declared himself the new Supreme Leader but left the resistance alone- yes, that would have worked for me. He could have said something like "stop the attack, they're of no consequence or irrelevant" - the movie should have ended than- That fight on Crait was too much.

What do you think?
@Night Huntress

He let the Resistance go at the end, though...

After being humiliated by his uncle (who absolutely deserved being the target of Ben's anger) in front of his troops, he dropped to his knees and let the Resistance go, rather than shouting outside where the Falcon was and to pursue them or anything. That doesn't scream cold-blooded murderer to me.
@ISeeAnIsland

This is not especially aimed at ISeeAnIsland - if anyone can answer this please do..
I've only seen the movie once - Did Kylo let the resistance go at the end?
I'm thinking Kylo entered the stronghold to find they had evacuated... he looks down, picks up the dice..
He then looks up at Rey on the MF using the force bond. And she closes the door. The dice ended up being a projection or a part of the force bond - because the dice fades from his fingers and disappears... [did Luke give Leia the dice? I don't remember how the dice came to be there. anyone? I really need to see this movie again! Smile ]

Rey and the MF are off in the distance at the end of the caves they followed the wolves through. When the MF flew in and found them they were surrounded by mountains - it gave the impression they had travelled quite a distance.
Maybe I've misunderstood what I saw, but I'm thinking that the resistance escaped, rather than Kylo letting them get away.
Oh how I wish I had seen Kylo letting them get away!!!! but.. I am resigned that the big signs of his approaching redemption are in IX.

have I misunderstood the ending?


Last edited by DeeBee on Sun 17 Dec 2017, 3:10 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : added comment)
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Re: Discussion: Kylo Ren/Ben Solo in TLJ

Post by thescavenger on Sun 17 Dec 2017, 3:16 am

@Lily Snape wrote:

But then there's Adam-- and yes, he was hedging, but still, saying something like "Depends on what you mean by living" when asked whether Kylo would make it out of this movie alive.  There's another two-hour film to come, so they can't just have Rey and Ben reopen the Force Bond with him saying, "I'm miserable, this sucks, I miss you, and I'll give it all up for you."  There will have to be a lot more going on.  But I think the difference will be that here, she tried to turn him-- in IX, he will have to turn himself.  But she will feel it, she will know it's real.  He will be Mr. Darcy at the end of Pride and Prejudice, not the jackass who tells Elizabeth that she's unworthy of him.  He's the last Skywalker-- he has to come back to the light and continue the family.  And I don't think Rey is just going to be a guest at the wedding.
@Lily Snape

Agreed. Going on the P&P reference, yes, he will have to turn himself, but inspired by her. And when she forgives him, that will lead him to eventually forgive himself in time.
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Re: Discussion: Kylo Ren/Ben Solo in TLJ

Post by shii405 on Sun 17 Dec 2017, 4:24 am

‘The Last Jedi’ Has Something That No Other Franchise Can Claim
In Adam Driver’s Kylo Ren, the new ‘Star Wars’ movie foregrounds something Marvel, DC, and the rest of the major movie series have not been able find: a complex villain



source: https://www.theringer.com/movies/2017/12/15/16780348/star-wars-last-jedi-kylo-ren-adam-driver-movie-villains

I love this article... Kylo Ren is the best villain of the decade, indeed!
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Re: Discussion: Kylo Ren/Ben Solo in TLJ

Post by DarthRen on Sun 17 Dec 2017, 4:24 am

@Kylo Men wrote:Why did Kylo suddenly get stupid at the end? He manufactures this perfect coup, where he seems steps ahead of everybody. I get that he's supposed to be emotional and letting his emotions get in the way of his judgments. But he's not stupid. The biggest problem I have with the film, well one of them, is that the first half requires Rey to be dumber than she is and the second half requires Kylo to be dumber than he is. The fact that The Last Jedi is the Finn and Rose Show, at least in terms of time, just adds to that frustration.
@Kylo Men

They had to give Finn do something and develop the bond between them. I think pretty solid, nothing special but solid.

We have to remember that this is the story of two teenagers growing up. They're bound to be naive in this journey, repeating mistakes, thinking selfishly, they are flawed, emotionally vulnerable and fall down on its as* before things get better.

In fact I love this part, it's realistic and applies to our real-life situations. I can relate to both of them on this, to some degree more to Kylo, but that's just my opinion.


@PalmettoBlue wrote:
@DarthRen wrote:
@PalmettoBlue wrote:@DarthRen But when does he come the closest to that? When he's communing with Rey.
I'd really like to see JJ take that Force bond and have it kick in when they are vulnerable. Maybe they are both asleep and they talk in their dreams to one another. I wouldn't even mind if it ambushed them when they were trying to do other things.
I'm not a fan of Damerey, but I can just hear Ben in her head of she was with Poe or Finn, even platonically.
With all the mysticism in TLJ, JJ could kick it up a notch. Perhaps they could both be pulled to some netherworld where they have to sort their s*** out and the First Order and the Resistance have to make due without them.
Nevermind. That last bit is a Harry Potter fanfic I need to write....

BUT - my broader point remains the same. And I know I've heard SWC podcasts say this - someone has to redeem romantic love. The only ones to do that in this saga are Ben and Rey.
Please, JJ, if you're reading this, make it happen.
@PalmettoBlue

Their destinies are intertwined, whatever that means. That's something.

I agree, Force bond has to be utilized further and expanded if possible, because otherwise another wasted opportunity.

I don't think romantic love needs a redemption. Änakin and Padme were good, people criticize it but it was good imo.

@DarthRen

Interesting take on Anakin and Padme. When I think of their relationship, I tend to remember him almost killing her, which leads me down a different road.

Romantic love could not bring Anakin back from the Dark side.
Family love did (love for his son.)
Family love could not bring Kylo back (he murdered his father.)
Hopefully, romantic love can bring him back.
@PalmettoBlue

I think the points was that as @reylo1992 said, Rey failed like Padme with Anakin. Ben Solo has to defeat Kylo Ren, light against the dark .It makes for even more powerful story. Rey being only a tool for his redemption or someone else would anger many people. Doesn't mean she has no role to play in it, she does because he loves her, the only person he has left. He'll do it and change on his own.

It will be epic no doubt.




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Re: Discussion: Kylo Ren/Ben Solo in TLJ

Post by Kyla Ren on Sun 17 Dec 2017, 4:44 am

@DeeBee wrote:
@ISeeAnIsland wrote:
@Night Huntress wrote:OK, so I had a little time thinking about Kylo/Ben in TLJ.

I have to see it at least a second time to really grasp everything- but overall I'm a bit torn...

I do feel compassion for him, because he was abandoned and betrayed by his family and targeted by a dark evil predator since his childhood.

On the other hand... does this really justify his action at the end of VIII? A lot of people have a bad childhood - it's not an excuse for becoming an murderer. And sadly that's what he did to Han and wanted to do with the few people left of the resistance. It had nothing to do with war - it felt for me like kicking someone that already is on the ground. That's why I'm not sure I would be fine with him being redeemed anymore.
I want a happy ending- badly, because I'm a romantic fool... but does he deserves it??? I'm really not sure anymore Cry

For me they overdid it... if he woke up in the throne room declared himself the new Supreme Leader but left the resistance alone- yes, that would have worked for me. He could have said something like "stop the attack, they're of no consequence or irrelevant" - the movie should have ended than- That fight on Crait was too much.

What do you think?
@Night Huntress

He let the Resistance go at the end, though...

After being humiliated by his uncle (who absolutely deserved being the target of Ben's anger) in front of his troops, he dropped to his knees and let the Resistance go, rather than shouting outside where the Falcon was and to pursue them or anything. That doesn't scream cold-blooded murderer to me.
@ISeeAnIsland

This is not especially aimed at ISeeAnIsland - if anyone can answer this please do..
I've only seen the movie once - Did Kylo let the resistance go at the end?
I'm thinking Kylo entered the stronghold to find they had evacuated... he looks down, picks up the dice..
He then looks up at Rey on the MF using the force bond. And she closes the door. The dice ended up being a projection or a part of the force bond - because the dice fades from his fingers and disappears... [did Luke give Leia the dice? I don't remember how the dice came to be there. anyone? I really need to see this movie again! Smile ]

Rey and the MF are off in the distance at the end of the caves they followed the wolves through. When the MF flew in and found them they were surrounded by mountains - it gave the impression they had travelled quite a distance.
Maybe I've misunderstood what I saw, but I'm thinking that the resistance escaped, rather than Kylo letting them get away.
Oh how I wish I had seen Kylo letting them get away!!!! but.. I am resigned that the big signs of his approaching redemption are in IX.

have I misunderstood the ending?
@DeeBee

My impression was that Kylo did not purposely let the Resistance go.  I think they escaped because Luke was able to stall Kylo and the First Order, thus giving the Resistance time to get away.  I think by the time Kylo actually entered the base, the Resistance people had already evacuated it.

I'm actually not sure about the dice.  Luke gave them to Leia, but I'm not sure if she dropped them or maybe she knew they were just a hologram projection and she couldn't take them with her so left them behind?  I'm really not sure.
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Re: Discussion: Kylo Ren/Ben Solo in TLJ

Post by ZioRen on Sun 17 Dec 2017, 5:50 am

I also don't think Kylo planned his "coup" this way at all, so he wasn't steps ahead and had no plan. His emotions, particularly after Rey rejected him, didn't let him make a good one on the fly. He refused to kill Rey in the moment and turned on Snoke instead, but it wasn't a premeditated thing. Then after it was done, he turned to Rey and hoped she would join him and they'd figure it out from there. Then after that didn't work out, it seems like he was just like "Welp, guess I'm Supreme Leader now. Screw everyone and everything, let's destroy the Resistance."
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Re: Discussion: Kylo Ren/Ben Solo in TLJ

Post by SkyStar on Sun 17 Dec 2017, 6:04 am

@ZioRen wrote:
I also don't think Kylo planned his "coup" this way at all, so he wasn't steps ahead and had no plan. His emotions, particularly after Rey rejected him, didn't let him make a good one on the fly. He refused to kill Rey in the moment and turned on Snoke instead, but it wasn't a premeditated thing. Then after it was done, he turned to Rey and hoped she would join him and they'd figure it out from there. Then after that didn't work out, it seems like he was just like "Welp, guess I'm Supreme Leader now. Screw everyone and everything, let's destroy the Resistance."
@ZioRen

Kylo is the real master improviser there. Everyone wants to use him as a tool and yet he manages to shock all of them instead, by going directly the opposite.
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Re: Discussion: Kylo Ren/Ben Solo in TLJ

Post by Kessel on Sun 17 Dec 2017, 6:13 am

@ZioRen wrote:
I also don't think Kylo planned his "coup" this way at all, so he wasn't steps ahead and had no plan. His emotions, particularly after Rey rejected him, didn't let him make a good one on the fly. He refused to kill Rey in the moment and turned on Snoke instead, but it wasn't a premeditated thing. Then after it was done, he turned to Rey and hoped she would join him and they'd figure it out from there. Then after that didn't work out, it seems like he was just like "Welp, guess I'm Supreme Leader now. Screw everyone and everything, let's destroy the Resistance."
@ZioRen

While I agree that it wasn't exactly planned and he acted at that moment because he wasn't about to kill Rey, I think the seeds were planted before and he got the conviction to do it because of his vision and connection with Rey. He saw a future where she'd turn and stand with him. When she came to him , he took his chance.

He didn't want to be Supreme Leader of the FO. He wanted to destroy it all and start something new (with Rey). He's going to be miserable as Supreme Leader.

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"The relationship between Kylo and Rey is awesome."
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Re: Discussion: Kylo Ren/Ben Solo in TLJ

Post by motherofpearl1 on Sun 17 Dec 2017, 6:32 am

@Kylo Men wrote:Why did Kylo suddenly get stupid at the end? He manufactures this perfect coup, where he seems steps ahead of everybody. I get that he's supposed to be emotional and letting his emotions get in the way of his judgments. But he's not stupid. The biggest problem I have with the film, well one of them, is that the first half requires Rey to be dumber than she is and the second half requires Kylo to be dumber than he is. The fact that The Last Jedi is the Finn and Rose Show, at least in terms of time, just adds to that frustration.
@Kylo Men

He was breaking his heart, I think, and his type revert to rage instead of crying to deal with their pain.
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Re: Discussion: Kylo Ren/Ben Solo in TLJ

Post by motherofpearl1 on Sun 17 Dec 2017, 6:35 am

@Kessel wrote:
@ZioRen wrote:
I also don't think Kylo planned his "coup" this way at all, so he wasn't steps ahead and had no plan. His emotions, particularly after Rey rejected him, didn't let him make a good one on the fly. He refused to kill Rey in the moment and turned on Snoke instead, but it wasn't a premeditated thing. Then after it was done, he turned to Rey and hoped she would join him and they'd figure it out from there. Then after that didn't work out, it seems like he was just like "Welp, guess I'm Supreme Leader now. Screw everyone and everything, let's destroy the Resistance."
@ZioRen

While I agree that it wasn't exactly planned and he acted at that moment because he wasn't about to kill Rey, I think the seeds were planted before and he got the conviction to do it because of his vision and connection with Rey. He saw a future where she'd turn and stand with him. When she came to him , he took his chance.

He didn't want to be Supreme Leader of the FO. He wanted to destroy it all and start something new (with Rey). He's going to be miserable as Supreme Leader.
@Kessel

Which is why a little part of me is mad with Rey; he would have done anything for her in that moment, he killed the man he'd worshipped like a god for her. We are supposed to admire Rey for her stance, allI think is: 'You idiot, you could have stopped it all in that moment.'
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Re: Discussion: Kylo Ren/Ben Solo in TLJ

Post by motherofpearl1 on Sun 17 Dec 2017, 6:38 am

@Kyla Ren wrote:
@DeeBee wrote:
@ISeeAnIsland wrote:
@Night Huntress wrote:OK, so I had a little time thinking about Kylo/Ben in TLJ.

I have to see it at least a second time to really grasp everything- but overall I'm a bit torn...

I do feel compassion for him, because he was abandoned and betrayed by his family and targeted by a dark evil predator since his childhood.

On the other hand... does this really justify his action at the end of VIII? A lot of people have a bad childhood - it's not an excuse for becoming an murderer. And sadly that's what he did to Han and wanted to do with the few people left of the resistance. It had nothing to do with war - it felt for me like kicking someone that already is on the ground. That's why I'm not sure I would be fine with him being redeemed anymore.
I want a happy ending- badly, because I'm a romantic fool... but does he deserves it??? I'm really not sure anymore Cry

For me they overdid it... if he woke up in the throne room declared himself the new Supreme Leader but left the resistance alone- yes, that would have worked for me. He could have said something like "stop the attack, they're of no consequence or irrelevant" - the movie should have ended than- That fight on Crait was too much.

What do you think?
@Night Huntress

He let the Resistance go at the end, though...

After being humiliated by his uncle (who absolutely deserved being the target of Ben's anger) in front of his troops, he dropped to his knees and let the Resistance go, rather than shouting outside where the Falcon was and to pursue them or anything. That doesn't scream cold-blooded murderer to me.
@ISeeAnIsland

This is not especially aimed at ISeeAnIsland - if anyone can answer this please do..
I've only seen the movie once - Did Kylo let the resistance go at the end?
I'm thinking Kylo entered the stronghold to find they had evacuated... he looks down, picks up the dice..
He then looks up at Rey on the MF using the force bond. And she closes the door. The dice ended up being a projection or a part of the force bond - because the dice fades from his fingers and disappears... [did Luke give Leia the dice? I don't remember how the dice came to be there. anyone? I really need to see this movie again! Smile ]

Rey and the MF are off in the distance at the end of the caves they followed the wolves through. When the MF flew in and found them they were surrounded by mountains - it gave the impression they had travelled quite a distance.
Maybe I've misunderstood what I saw, but I'm thinking that the resistance escaped, rather than Kylo letting them get away.
Oh how I wish I had seen Kylo letting them get away!!!! but.. I am resigned that the big signs of his approaching redemption are in IX.

have I misunderstood the ending?
@DeeBee

My impression was that Kylo did not purposely let the Resistance go.  I think they escaped because Luke was able to stall Kylo and the First Order, thus giving the Resistance time to get away.  I think by the time Kylo actually entered the base, the Resistance people had already evacuated it.

I'm actually not sure about the dice.  Luke gave them to Leia, but I'm not sure if she dropped them or maybe she knew they were just a hologram projection and she couldn't take them with her so left them behind?  I'm really not sure.
@Kyla Ren

He knew they were with Rey, he knew they were on the Falcon. He could have ordered them to destroy the Falcon as soon as it left Crait. But he didn't, because Rey was on it.
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Re: Discussion: Kylo Ren/Ben Solo in TLJ

Post by SkyStar on Sun 17 Dec 2017, 6:38 am

@motherofpearl1 wrote:
@Kessel wrote:
@ZioRen wrote:
I also don't think Kylo planned his "coup" this way at all, so he wasn't steps ahead and had no plan. His emotions, particularly after Rey rejected him, didn't let him make a good one on the fly. He refused to kill Rey in the moment and turned on Snoke instead, but it wasn't a premeditated thing. Then after it was done, he turned to Rey and hoped she would join him and they'd figure it out from there. Then after that didn't work out, it seems like he was just like "Welp, guess I'm Supreme Leader now. Screw everyone and everything, let's destroy the Resistance."
@ZioRen

While I agree that it wasn't exactly planned and he acted at that moment because he wasn't about to kill Rey, I think the seeds were planted before and he got the conviction to do it because of his vision and connection with Rey. He saw a future where she'd turn and stand with him. When she came to him , he took his chance.

He didn't want to be Supreme Leader of the FO. He wanted to destroy it all and start something new (with Rey). He's going to be miserable as Supreme Leader.
@Kessel

Which is why a little part of me is mad with Rey; he would have done anything for her in that moment, he killed the man he'd worshipped like a god for her. We are supposed to admire Rey for her stance, allI think is:  'You idiot, you could have stopped it all in that moment.'
@motherofpearl1

I was thinking about it and Rey said to Luke - you took decision for him, but she did the same with Kylo and that is why she felt crushed because the fantasy she imagined didn't turn out. I think she also needs to realize that. That Ben didn't fail her as much as her emotions did and the fact that she didn't get the saber, but it was torn apart between them showed that she wasn't exactly right. Neither was he.
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Re: Discussion: Kylo Ren/Ben Solo in TLJ

Post by motherofpearl1 on Sun 17 Dec 2017, 7:03 am

@SkyStar wrote:
@motherofpearl1 wrote:
@Kessel wrote:
@ZioRen wrote:
I also don't think Kylo planned his "coup" this way at all, so he wasn't steps ahead and had no plan. His emotions, particularly after Rey rejected him, didn't let him make a good one on the fly. He refused to kill Rey in the moment and turned on Snoke instead, but it wasn't a premeditated thing. Then after it was done, he turned to Rey and hoped she would join him and they'd figure it out from there. Then after that didn't work out, it seems like he was just like "Welp, guess I'm Supreme Leader now. Screw everyone and everything, let's destroy the Resistance."
@ZioRen

While I agree that it wasn't exactly planned and he acted at that moment because he wasn't about to kill Rey, I think the seeds were planted before and he got the conviction to do it because of his vision and connection with Rey. He saw a future where she'd turn and stand with him. When she came to him , he took his chance.

He didn't want to be Supreme Leader of the FO. He wanted to destroy it all and start something new (with Rey). He's going to be miserable as Supreme Leader.
@Kessel

Which is why a little part of me is mad with Rey; he would have done anything for her in that moment, he killed the man he'd worshipped like a god for her. We are supposed to admire Rey for her stance, allI think is:  'You idiot, you could have stopped it all in that moment.'
@motherofpearl1

I was thinking about it and Rey said to Luke - you took decision for him, but she did the same with Kylo and that is why she felt crushed because the fantasy she imagined didn't turn out. I think she also needs to realize that. That Ben didn't fail her as much as her emotions did and the fact that she didn't get the saber, but it was torn apart between them showed that she wasn't exactly right. Neither was he.
@SkyStar

Which is exactly how I see it. Rey is still a very naive young girl. She saw Luke as a King Arthur figure, Han as the dad she'd never had after knowing him for five minutes, and she believed that she could turn Ben Solo completely around also in five minutes. But Ben/Kylo is a terribly damaged man - and Rey has only just scratched the surface of his character. Although she doesn't know it - and it certainly doesn't seem like it - she's reached him more in a few hours than his family did in years. Her problem is she had a fantasy of him waltzing off into the Light with her just as he had a fantasy of her joining him. What Rey needs to understand is people are complicated. Kylo can't just throw off his black clothes and throw down his red lightsabre and become an Obi Wan figure, not just because what he did but what was done to him. Rey has to accept that he'll never be the man he was supposed to be - but he can be a better man if she just does what his family couldn't and accept him for what he is. He did, after all, accept her.
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Re: Discussion: Kylo Ren/Ben Solo in TLJ

Post by Kessel on Sun 17 Dec 2017, 7:37 am

@motherofpearl1 wrote:
@SkyStar wrote:
@motherofpearl1 wrote:
@Kessel wrote:
@ZioRen wrote:
I also don't think Kylo planned his "coup" this way at all, so he wasn't steps ahead and had no plan. His emotions, particularly after Rey rejected him, didn't let him make a good one on the fly. He refused to kill Rey in the moment and turned on Snoke instead, but it wasn't a premeditated thing. Then after it was done, he turned to Rey and hoped she would join him and they'd figure it out from there. Then after that didn't work out, it seems like he was just like "Welp, guess I'm Supreme Leader now. Screw everyone and everything, let's destroy the Resistance."
@ZioRen

While I agree that it wasn't exactly planned and he acted at that moment because he wasn't about to kill Rey, I think the seeds were planted before and he got the conviction to do it because of his vision and connection with Rey. He saw a future where she'd turn and stand with him. When she came to him , he took his chance.

He didn't want to be Supreme Leader of the FO. He wanted to destroy it all and start something new (with Rey). He's going to be miserable as Supreme Leader.
@Kessel

Which is why a little part of me is mad with Rey; he would have done anything for her in that moment, he killed the man he'd worshipped like a god for her. We are supposed to admire Rey for her stance, allI think is:  'You idiot, you could have stopped it all in that moment.'
@motherofpearl1

I was thinking about it and Rey said to Luke - you took decision for him, but she did the same with Kylo and that is why she felt crushed because the fantasy she imagined didn't turn out. I think she also needs to realize that. That Ben didn't fail her as much as her emotions did and the fact that she didn't get the saber, but it was torn apart between them showed that she wasn't exactly right. Neither was he.
@SkyStar

Which is exactly how I see it. Rey is still a very naive young girl. She saw Luke as a King Arthur figure, Han as the dad she'd never had after knowing him for five minutes, and she believed that she could turn Ben Solo completely around also in five minutes. But Ben/Kylo is a terribly damaged man - and Rey has only just scratched the surface of his character. Although she doesn't know it - and it certainly doesn't seem like it - she's reached him more in a few hours than his family did in years. Her problem is she had a fantasy of him waltzing off into the Light with her just as he had a fantasy of her joining him. What Rey needs to understand is people are complicated. Kylo can't just throw off his black clothes and throw down his red lightsabre and become an Obi Wan figure, not just because what he did but what was done to him. Rey has to accept that he'll never be the man he was supposed to be - but he can be a better man if she just does what his family couldn't and accept him for what he is. He did, after all, accept her.
@motherofpearl1

I love Kylo and I want nothing more than for him to find happiness and acceptance with Rey, but I don't think he was being fully accepting of Rey at that moment because he wasn't willing to accept her feelings and desires, especially her feelings for new friends at the Resistance. He wanted to let them die. She begged him to call off the attack and he wouldn't. It was unreasonable of him to expect she'd let her friends die.  He knew she wanted him to return to the light and help the Resistance, so I think it was also unreasonable of him to expect her to turn and join him in destroying everything (although I do acknowledge he had a vision of it so he though it was true). I do agree that she was very naive to think she could just turn him though. Especially with his past issues. I wish they'd both been able to reach a compromise of sorts and stay together, but they couldn't do that because...drama.

That's why I believe in Episode IX, Kylo will show Rey selfless love and she will accept him. She already knows there's potential for good in Ben Solo. He just has to prove it.

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Re: Discussion: Kylo Ren/Ben Solo in TLJ

Post by Cowgirlsamurai on Sun 17 Dec 2017, 8:05 am

@Kylo Men wrote:Why did Kylo suddenly get stupid at the end? He manufactures this perfect coup, where he seems steps ahead of everybody. I get that he's supposed to be emotional and letting his emotions get in the way of his judgments. But he's not stupid. The biggest problem I have with the film, well one of them, is that the first half requires Rey to be dumber than she is and the second half requires Kylo to be dumber than he is. The fact that The Last Jedi is the Finn and Rose Show, at least in terms of time, just adds to that frustration.
@Kylo Men

I don’t think Kylo was stupid. He’s just a character whose emotions often get in the way, and Luke seemed to know that. He figured by walking out on that battlefield, Kylo would be #triggered to the point of coming down to face him, stalling the advance on the base. Kylo is rather childish in his anger. Precisely why he won’t make a good Supreme Leader.
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Re: Discussion: Kylo Ren/Ben Solo in TLJ

Post by SkyStar on Sun 17 Dec 2017, 8:11 am

@Cowgirlsamurai wrote:
@Kylo Men wrote:Why did Kylo suddenly get stupid at the end? He manufactures this perfect coup, where he seems steps ahead of everybody. I get that he's supposed to be emotional and letting his emotions get in the way of his judgments. But he's not stupid. The biggest problem I have with the film, well one of them, is that the first half requires Rey to be dumber than she is and the second half requires Kylo to be dumber than he is. The fact that The Last Jedi is the Finn and Rose Show, at least in terms of time, just adds to that frustration.
@Kylo Men

I don’t think Kylo was stupid. He’s just a character whose emotions often get in the way, and Luke seemed to know that. He figured by walking out on that battlefield, Kylo would be #triggered to the point of coming down to face him, stalling the advance on the base. Kylo is rather childish in his anger. Precisely why he won’t make a good Supreme Leader.
@Cowgirlsamurai

This. He just reacts by his feeling and it clashes with his own agenda, plans, and ambitions. No wonder he thinks it's better to burn everything down.
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Re: Discussion: Kylo Ren/Ben Solo in TLJ

Post by SanghaRen on Sun 17 Dec 2017, 9:34 am

@SkyStar wrote:
@motherofpearl1 wrote:
@Kessel wrote:
@ZioRen wrote:
I also don't think Kylo planned his "coup" this way at all, so he wasn't steps ahead and had no plan. His emotions, particularly after Rey rejected him, didn't let him make a good one on the fly. He refused to kill Rey in the moment and turned on Snoke instead, but it wasn't a premeditated thing. Then after it was done, he turned to Rey and hoped she would join him and they'd figure it out from there. Then after that didn't work out, it seems like he was just like "Welp, guess I'm Supreme Leader now. Screw everyone and everything, let's destroy the Resistance."
@ZioRen

While I agree that it wasn't exactly planned and he acted at that moment because he wasn't about to kill Rey, I think the seeds were planted before and he got the conviction to do it because of his vision and connection with Rey. He saw a future where she'd turn and stand with him. When she came to him , he took his chance.

He didn't want to be Supreme Leader of the FO. He wanted to destroy it all and start something new (with Rey). He's going to be miserable as Supreme Leader.
@Kessel

Which is why a little part of me is mad with Rey; he would have done anything for her in that moment, he killed the man he'd worshipped like a god for her. We are supposed to admire Rey for her stance, allI think is:  'You idiot, you could have stopped it all in that moment.'
@motherofpearl1

I was thinking about it and Rey said to Luke - you took decision for him, but she did the same with Kylo and that is why she felt crushed because the fantasy she imagined didn't turn out. I think she also needs to realize that. That Ben didn't fail her as much as her emotions did and the fact that she didn't get the saber, but it was torn apart between them showed that she wasn't exactly right. Neither was he.
@SkyStar

I wonder how many people actually understood the symbolism of the legacy saber breaking in two instead of going to Rey as it did in TFA. Because I can see how many people will take that last shot in the Falcon as “tada, here are the good guys to root for” forgetting that the protagonist only has a broken saber in her possession now because the force decided that she did not deserve it more than big baddie Ben. Even I must admit that I am a bit insecure with that scene and have to remind myself that Rey does not exactly look like she’s belonging, alone on her bench.

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Re: Discussion: Kylo Ren/Ben Solo in TLJ

Post by Cowgirlsamurai on Sun 17 Dec 2017, 9:43 am

@SanghaRen wrote:
@SkyStar wrote:
@motherofpearl1 wrote:
@Kessel wrote:
@ZioRen wrote:
I also don't think Kylo planned his "coup" this way at all, so he wasn't steps ahead and had no plan. His emotions, particularly after Rey rejected him, didn't let him make a good one on the fly. He refused to kill Rey in the moment and turned on Snoke instead, but it wasn't a premeditated thing. Then after it was done, he turned to Rey and hoped she would join him and they'd figure it out from there. Then after that didn't work out, it seems like he was just like "Welp, guess I'm Supreme Leader now. Screw everyone and everything, let's destroy the Resistance."
@ZioRen

While I agree that it wasn't exactly planned and he acted at that moment because he wasn't about to kill Rey, I think the seeds were planted before and he got the conviction to do it because of his vision and connection with Rey. He saw a future where she'd turn and stand with him. When she came to him , he took his chance.

He didn't want to be Supreme Leader of the FO. He wanted to destroy it all and start something new (with Rey). He's going to be miserable as Supreme Leader.
@Kessel

Which is why a little part of me is mad with Rey; he would have done anything for her in that moment, he killed the man he'd worshipped like a god for her. We are supposed to admire Rey for her stance, allI think is:  'You idiot, you could have stopped it all in that moment.'
@motherofpearl1

I was thinking about it and Rey said to Luke - you took decision for him, but she did the same with Kylo and that is why she felt crushed because the fantasy she imagined didn't turn out. I think she also needs to realize that. That Ben didn't fail her as much as her emotions did and the fact that she didn't get the saber, but it was torn apart between them showed that she wasn't exactly right. Neither was he.
@SkyStar

I wonder how many people actually understood the symbolism of the legacy saber breaking in two instead of going to Rey as it did in TFA. Because I can see how many people will take that last shot in the Falcon as “tada, here are the good guys to root for” forgetting that the protagonist only has a broken saber in her possession now because the force decided that she did not deserve it more than big baddie Ben. Even I must admit that I am a bit insecure with that scene and have to remind myself that Rey does not exactly look like she’s belonging, alone on her bench.

@SanghaRen

God, I love that symbolism. Thank you, Rian! But yes, I think it will go over most’s heads Neutral
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Re: Discussion: Kylo Ren/Ben Solo in TLJ

Post by motherofpearl1 on Sun 17 Dec 2017, 9:49 am

@SanghaRen wrote:
@SkyStar wrote:
@motherofpearl1 wrote:
@Kessel wrote:
@ZioRen wrote:
I also don't think Kylo planned his "coup" this way at all, so he wasn't steps ahead and had no plan. His emotions, particularly after Rey rejected him, didn't let him make a good one on the fly. He refused to kill Rey in the moment and turned on Snoke instead, but it wasn't a premeditated thing. Then after it was done, he turned to Rey and hoped she would join him and they'd figure it out from there. Then after that didn't work out, it seems like he was just like "Welp, guess I'm Supreme Leader now. Screw everyone and everything, let's destroy the Resistance."
@ZioRen

While I agree that it wasn't exactly planned and he acted at that moment because he wasn't about to kill Rey, I think the seeds were planted before and he got the conviction to do it because of his vision and connection with Rey. He saw a future where she'd turn and stand with him. When she came to him , he took his chance.

He didn't want to be Supreme Leader of the FO. He wanted to destroy it all and start something new (with Rey). He's going to be miserable as Supreme Leader.
@Kessel

Which is why a little part of me is mad with Rey; he would have done anything for her in that moment, he killed the man he'd worshipped like a god for her. We are supposed to admire Rey for her stance, allI think is:  'You idiot, you could have stopped it all in that moment.'
@motherofpearl1

I was thinking about it and Rey said to Luke - you took decision for him, but she did the same with Kylo and that is why she felt crushed because the fantasy she imagined didn't turn out. I think she also needs to realize that. That Ben didn't fail her as much as her emotions did and the fact that she didn't get the saber, but it was torn apart between them showed that she wasn't exactly right. Neither was he.
@SkyStar

I wonder how many people actually understood the symbolism of the legacy saber breaking in two instead of going to Rey as it did in TFA. Because I can see how many people will take that last shot in the Falcon as “tada, here are the good guys to root for” forgetting that the protagonist only has a broken saber in her possession now because the force decided that she did not deserve it more than big baddie Ben. Even I must admit that I am a bit insecure with that scene and have to remind myself that Rey does not exactly look like she’s belonging, alone on her bench.

@SanghaRen

That was my impression as well. The lightsabre reminded me of Excalibur, or Thor's hammer. It was such a striking contrast to what happened in TFA. Rey was as wrong as Kylo, and I think it was because of how she attacked him. Of course you have to take into account her concern for her friends, but the stark truth is, Kylo offered her his hand - and she reached for a weapon. He has to change.....but so does she. I have a very strong feeling that Rey is going to find herself a square peg in a round hole in the Resistance, she is the only Force sensitive there. Finn has Rose now, so although they care for each other her place isn't with him.
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Re: Discussion: Kylo Ren/Ben Solo in TLJ

Post by FrolickingFizzgig on Sun 17 Dec 2017, 9:51 am

@SanghaRen wrote:
@SkyStar wrote:
@motherofpearl1 wrote:
@Kessel wrote:
@ZioRen wrote:
I also don't think Kylo planned his "coup" this way at all, so he wasn't steps ahead and had no plan. His emotions, particularly after Rey rejected him, didn't let him make a good one on the fly. He refused to kill Rey in the moment and turned on Snoke instead, but it wasn't a premeditated thing. Then after it was done, he turned to Rey and hoped she would join him and they'd figure it out from there. Then after that didn't work out, it seems like he was just like "Welp, guess I'm Supreme Leader now. Screw everyone and everything, let's destroy the Resistance."
@ZioRen

While I agree that it wasn't exactly planned and he acted at that moment because he wasn't about to kill Rey, I think the seeds were planted before and he got the conviction to do it because of his vision and connection with Rey. He saw a future where she'd turn and stand with him. When she came to him , he took his chance.

He didn't want to be Supreme Leader of the FO. He wanted to destroy it all and start something new (with Rey). He's going to be miserable as Supreme Leader.
@Kessel

Which is why a little part of me is mad with Rey; he would have done anything for her in that moment, he killed the man he'd worshipped like a god for her. We are supposed to admire Rey for her stance, allI think is:  'You idiot, you could have stopped it all in that moment.'
@motherofpearl1

I was thinking about it and Rey said to Luke - you took decision for him, but she did the same with Kylo and that is why she felt crushed because the fantasy she imagined didn't turn out. I think she also needs to realize that. That Ben didn't fail her as much as her emotions did and the fact that she didn't get the saber, but it was torn apart between them showed that she wasn't exactly right. Neither was he.
@SkyStar

I wonder how many people actually understood the symbolism of the legacy saber breaking in two instead of going to Rey as it did in TFA. Because I can see how many people will take that last shot in the Falcon as “tada, here are the good guys to root for” forgetting that the protagonist only has a broken saber in her possession now because the force decided that she did not deserve it more than big baddie Ben. Even I must admit that I am a bit insecure with that scene and have to remind myself that Rey does not exactly look like she’s belonging, alone on her bench.
@SanghaRen
As a Force sensitive warrior Rey's whole story goes a lot deeper than her affiliation with the Resistance. She genuinely wants to help them because she's a very compassionate person and she has bonds with Finn and Leia, but the truest connection she formed over the course of TFA and TLJ was to Ben Solo. She was called into the fight by his old lightsaber, she experienced a vision that was pretty much all about him, she was confronted by him and overcame him and then had to reconcile with the fact that he was not simply evil, that the events of his past and struggles with his imperfect family aided in his creation as much as Snoke's predation. The movie does not deny that, either. It's very front-and-centre, which I liked.

Everything she experienced with Kylo was incredibly personal. Their bond is as integral to their future as Luke and Vader's was after Empire. Kylo is a villain with a connection to a heroine and Rey is a heroine who discovered her truest link will always be with him (with Ben). The only witnesses lost their lives, leaving the apprentices completely alone once again. Rey will never find belonging in the Resistance. It's not who she is.
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Re: Discussion: Kylo Ren/Ben Solo in TLJ

Post by Kylo Men on Sun 17 Dec 2017, 9:57 am

Kylo is either way ahead of Snoke or he comes up with a great "kill Snoke" plan on the fly. Either way, very cunning.

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Re: Discussion: Kylo Ren/Ben Solo in TLJ

Post by rey09 on Sun 17 Dec 2017, 10:08 am

@SanghaRen wrote:
@SkyStar wrote:
@motherofpearl1 wrote:
@Kessel wrote:
@ZioRen wrote:
I also don't think Kylo planned his "coup" this way at all, so he wasn't steps ahead and had no plan. His emotions, particularly after Rey rejected him, didn't let him make a good one on the fly. He refused to kill Rey in the moment and turned on Snoke instead, but it wasn't a premeditated thing. Then after it was done, he turned to Rey and hoped she would join him and they'd figure it out from there. Then after that didn't work out, it seems like he was just like "Welp, guess I'm Supreme Leader now. Screw everyone and everything, let's destroy the Resistance."
@ZioRen

While I agree that it wasn't exactly planned and he acted at that moment because he wasn't about to kill Rey, I think the seeds were planted before and he got the conviction to do it because of his vision and connection with Rey. He saw a future where she'd turn and stand with him. When she came to him , he took his chance.

He didn't want to be Supreme Leader of the FO. He wanted to destroy it all and start something new (with Rey). He's going to be miserable as Supreme Leader.
@Kessel

Which is why a little part of me is mad with Rey; he would have done anything for her in that moment, he killed the man he'd worshipped like a god for her. We are supposed to admire Rey for her stance, allI think is:  'You idiot, you could have stopped it all in that moment.'
@motherofpearl1

I was thinking about it and Rey said to Luke - you took decision for him, but she did the same with Kylo and that is why she felt crushed because the fantasy she imagined didn't turn out. I think she also needs to realize that. That Ben didn't fail her as much as her emotions did and the fact that she didn't get the saber, but it was torn apart between them showed that she wasn't exactly right. Neither was he.
@SkyStar

I wonder how many people actually understood the symbolism of the legacy saber breaking in two instead of going to Rey as it did in TFA. Because I can see how many people will take that last shot in the Falcon as “tada, here are the good guys to root for” forgetting that the protagonist only has a broken saber in her possession now because the force decided that she did not deserve it more than big baddie Ben. Even I must admit that I am a bit insecure with that scene and have to remind myself that Rey does not exactly look like she’s belonging, alone on her bench.

@SanghaRen  cheers cheers Didn't even think of it that way at all. 

I think for Kylo, it's not so much about light and dark but about strength and weakness. He will do whatever it takes to be the strongest. He believes weakness made him vulnerable so now he will never back down from being powerful. It's how he protects himself. At some point he has to realize though that being reckless isn't going to give him anything he truly wants- acceptance.
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Re: Discussion: Kylo Ren/Ben Solo in TLJ

Post by Cowgirlsamurai on Sun 17 Dec 2017, 10:12 am

@FrolickingFizzgig

Is Anakin’s saber the one Ben has in the flashback?

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Re: Discussion: Kylo Ren/Ben Solo in TLJ

Post by FrolickingFizzgig on Sun 17 Dec 2017, 10:14 am

@Cowgirlsamurai wrote:@FrolickingFizzgig

Is Anakin’s saber the one Ben has in the flashback?

@Cowgirlsamurai
Oh, I only saw the movie once so I assumed it was. I guess he had his own.
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Re: Discussion: Kylo Ren/Ben Solo in TLJ

Post by Kessel on Sun 17 Dec 2017, 10:15 am

@FrolickingFizzgig wrote:
@SanghaRen wrote:
@SkyStar wrote:
@motherofpearl1 wrote:
@Kessel wrote:
@ZioRen wrote:
I also don't think Kylo planned his "coup" this way at all, so he wasn't steps ahead and had no plan. His emotions, particularly after Rey rejected him, didn't let him make a good one on the fly. He refused to kill Rey in the moment and turned on Snoke instead, but it wasn't a premeditated thing. Then after it was done, he turned to Rey and hoped she would join him and they'd figure it out from there. Then after that didn't work out, it seems like he was just like "Welp, guess I'm Supreme Leader now. Screw everyone and everything, let's destroy the Resistance."
@ZioRen

While I agree that it wasn't exactly planned and he acted at that moment because he wasn't about to kill Rey, I think the seeds were planted before and he got the conviction to do it because of his vision and connection with Rey. He saw a future where she'd turn and stand with him. When she came to him , he took his chance.

He didn't want to be Supreme Leader of the FO. He wanted to destroy it all and start something new (with Rey). He's going to be miserable as Supreme Leader.
@Kessel

Which is why a little part of me is mad with Rey; he would have done anything for her in that moment, he killed the man he'd worshipped like a god for her. We are supposed to admire Rey for her stance, allI think is:  'You idiot, you could have stopped it all in that moment.'
@motherofpearl1

I was thinking about it and Rey said to Luke - you took decision for him, but she did the same with Kylo and that is why she felt crushed because the fantasy she imagined didn't turn out. I think she also needs to realize that. That Ben didn't fail her as much as her emotions did and the fact that she didn't get the saber, but it was torn apart between them showed that she wasn't exactly right. Neither was he.
@SkyStar

I wonder how many people actually understood the symbolism of the legacy saber breaking in two instead of going to Rey as it did in TFA. Because I can see how many people will take that last shot in the Falcon as “tada, here are the good guys to root for” forgetting that the protagonist only has a broken saber in her possession now because the force decided that she did not deserve it more than big baddie Ben. Even I must admit that I am a bit insecure with that scene and have to remind myself that Rey does not exactly look like she’s belonging, alone on her bench.
@SanghaRen
As a Force sensitive warrior Rey's whole story goes a lot deeper than her affiliation with the Resistance. She genuinely wants to help them because she's a very compassionate person and she has bonds with Finn and Leia, but the truest connection she formed over the course of TFA and TLJ was to Ben Solo. She was called into the fight by his old lightsaber, she experienced a vision that was pretty much all about him, she was confronted by him and overcame him and then had to reconcile with the fact that he was not simply evil, that the events of his past and struggles with his imperfect family aided in his creation as much as Snoke's predation. The movie does not deny that, either. It's very front-and-centre, which I liked.

Everything she experienced with Kylo was incredibly personal. Their bond is as integral to their future as Luke and Vader's was after Empire. Kylo is a villain with a connection to a heroine and Rey is a heroine who discovered her truest link will always be with him (with Ben). The only witnesses lost their lives, leaving the apprentices completely alone once again. Rey will never find belonging in the Resistance. It's not who she is.
@FrolickingFizzgig

It's so true that the most intimate connection she's had is with Ben. Even in her second closet relationship, which is her friendship with Finn, they don't really know each other. Finn doesn't know her innermost feelings or fears, and I'm not even sure he knows about her Force sensitivity or what it means. And Poe? Lol, all he knows is her name is Rey.

Even in TFA, Kylo was the only one present for Rey's discovery of her Force powers. He knows her inner most fears and dreams. There's no way that connection won't be important in Episode IX. It's the MOST important connection Rey has in the entire trilogy.

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